I recently bought my first new Lexus, and have to say it was one of the nicest experiences I’ve ever had buying a car. The staff were all no-bullshit, no-pressure, and all legitimately friendly people. The first service did similar to the story linked, picked it up from our home, gave us a loaner (higher model fully specced out), and left some decently high end gift products in the back seat when we got our car back, as well as it being detailed with a full tank.
In comparison when I bought a brand new “high end” VW that had major mechanical issues within the first few months (needed entire motor and gearbox replaced with 5k kms on the clock) they made me drop it in and get a taxi home, then tried to charge me extra for “storage” for picking it up late (I couldn’t get there on the day they said it was done). Similar horror stories for other dealerships.
Lexus aren’t the fanciest cars in the world, but what you get for the price and the overall owner experience after years of dealing with sleazy stingy dealerships has pretty much guaranteed I’ll always go back to them from now on.
Goes to show how far a bit of genuine customer care goes. Of course it’s a business decision and not purely then wanting to be nice, but it’s proven time and time again to create customers for life, and customers who’ll pay a premium purely to be treated like a human being.
Well, in all honesty, VW are the "Toyota"; Audi is the group brand that one should compare to Lexus. That said, I find it entirely plausible that the Audi experience would not be too dissimilar.
What does a lexus cost? Asking because I find it generally impossible to just lookup how much a car costs more or less, especially as someone who's never had to buy a car.
yes, and IIUC it's already a crowded market. I haven't been car shopping in a very long time so I'm not sure what's the current state of the art, but the Kelley Blue Book (edit: mentioned in a sibling comment) is probably the original and best-known one. First published in 1926, online since 1995.
So, the current ‘joke’ is, buy a brand new vehicle, wait a month for its value to appreciate, then sell it back to the dealership.
My guess on the reason for the pricing increases is several factors:
At the beginning of the ‘shutdown’, it affected auto auctions, where dealers obtain a decent amount of their pre-owned inventory, besides trade-ins.
Actual manufacturing shutdowns decreased new car outputs
The rescue package allowed for a substantial jolt for vehicle financing, and it is not uncommon now for people to finance a car for a 6 year term. There are also 7 year terms, now.
Everything you described depends 100% on the individual dealership not on the brand. It's not like Volkswagen sends a manual to their dealerships that says "be dicks to customers" and Lexus tells theirs "only hire nice people and shower customers in expensive gifts".
Nearly all dealerships are run as franchises and there is no "standard" of care beyond some very basic rules. The owner of the dealership(not the manufacturer) will dictate how well the customers are treated and what kind of perks they get. You happened to find a decent Lexus dealership - maybe somewhere else there will be an equally nice Volkswagen dealership.
The thing that does matter is how quickly and easily the manufacturer approves repairs and warranty claims - in my experience Nissan was always dragging their feet, Mercedes was ok-ish, and Volvo was completely outstanding. But even then, it has little to do with "the manufacturer" and everything with their national HQ in whichever country you live in - some operate on tighter budgets so aren't as keen to approve repairs as others. In EU a good solution sometimes is to literally just drive across the border and try to get the repair done in a neighbouring country, if you aren't having luck getting the warranty claim approved.
My family has owned Lexus cars and dealt with dealers along the east coast for 30+ years. Maybe we've been lucky all along, but every one of them have provided similar experiences like the one described in the OP. Purely anecdotal but maybe there's a trend in Lexus to have great customer service at dealerships. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that there is a crappy Lexus dealer, but my experience in Pennsylvania, Massachusetts, and Florida indicates otherwise.
I doubt the family has dealt with Lexus for 30 plus years. Lexus has barely been around for 31 years, with the first model having been released in September of 1989.
There's no doubt that variance exists among franchises. But how much leverage do manufacturers have over their dealer networks?
I imagine if Toyota is going around building their Lexus brand around "concierge" level service, they could attach bonuses to this metric—maybe weight the bonus more heavily in that direction than they do for their Toyota brand—and punish dealerships that disappoint their customers.
Then again, a lot of dealerships are owned by huge dealer groups now, so the power balance isn't always tilted toward the manufacturer.
"You happened to find a decent Lexus dealership - maybe somewhere else there will be an equally nice Volkswagen dealership."
The margin on a VW isn't as high and costs significantly less on average than Lexus, so independent dealerships selling VWs have to operate on volume instead of long-term reputation and relationship building. The VW shops will be nice but don't have the time or budget for all the extra.
"Everything you described depends 100% on the individual dealership not on the brand."
This isn't the case. Just like different luxury-leaning domestic brands in Europe have levels of corporate ownership or incentive to provide certain services, leading Lexus also has what I assume is an incentive program for dealerships to offer different levels of lush care: https://www.lexus.com/guest-experience.
There will be outliers but the trends and reputations exist for often explicit reasons.
There are definitely differences between dealers. The one in Austin was superb. San Antonio and Raleigh were very good. The one here in Charlotte, while still good and better than any domestic brand, is not "Lexus good"
Lexus of Austin would have owners lined up out to the street every morning to get routine services done. The one here, not so much - and I don't think they understand what they're doing wrong and the business they're missing out on. I mean, when your customers prefer going to "Monkey-Lube" over you for their oil changes, that's a problem.
My experiences with Lexus Corporate have all been amazing. They replaced the dashboard about 4 years ago as part of a recall, on what was then a 12 year old SUV. I have never heard of a carmaker ever doing anything like that. Over the years I've owned nearly every brand [0], but when it comes time to replace it I want another Lexus.
[0] The Mercedes dealer was great, always getting me a service loaner. They would greet me and knew me by sight - because something went wrong on average every 8.5 weeks with my 1999 ML-320
Look out, they're about to screw everyone with a 2017, 2016, or older. They installed 3G-only cell stuff for the "phone home when the air bags pop" infrastructure, and it's being sunset in 2022. There seems to be no way to upgrade the telematics stuff to anything newer.
All of these cars are going to have shit resale value very soon now.
Paging class action lawyers... there's a big juicy target out here just waiting to be seized. Selling cars when you know it has technology that's already dated and won't last long enough? Then not providing a way to remedy it? Gold!
I’m confused, so what functionality are you losing when this is sunset? Is a auto notify Lexus you had an accident super useful or more some data Lexus wanted more than anything else?
Unless I’m miss understanding something about the feature (very likely), I think there would be a lot of people that wouldn’t care and it wouldn’t hurt the resale value that much.
My 2012 Nissan LEAF had a similar problem because it has a 2G modem in the telematics unit. They sent out a flyer offering to update it (replace the unit) for $200 or so. I passed because I didn’t use the telematics services much.
Same thing happened when the analog cell system was shut down nation-wide. Lots of home alarm systems suddenly had no way to contact the monitoring company that people were paying $24.99 a month for.
I've got a similar problem with the navigation system in my Lexus - the last maps for the DVD-based system were published in 2015, and there won't be any more updates. I now know what it's like past the end of the sidewalk.[0]
For a vehicle as old as mine, technological obsolescence isn't really a concern - it will still start & run, the windows will go up & down, and I still have a real metal key. Will there be lawsuits around electronic modules not being available for newer cars? Probably. But I also expect that there will be small businesses that specialize in repairing these modules. There's one that repairs the Mark Levinson amplifiers [1] used in Lexus vehicles. $1500 + labor for a new one from the dealer, vs. $400 for a repaired one from them is pretty attractive.
[0] The underappreciated Shel Silverstein
[1] I believe most of the repairs are just replacing dead output transistors. Easy thru-hole soldering.
I went into a rabbit hole trying to find out the plural of Lexus. According to Toyota it's Lexus[1]. Lexi is another option, but apparently the brand name is not derived from the Latin term, so some lean towards Lexuses[2].
For further fire on the speculation: Japanese nouns are always both singular and plural. Japanese as a language does not encode plurality. Thus if one considers Lexus to be a Japanese word the plural form being Lexus is reasonable.
Like how tsunami is never tsunamis. Or sushi is never sushis. One might argue that "eating sushi" implies multiples by the nature of sushi. Yet McDonalds sells French Fries not French Fry. Likewise we eat Potato Chips not Potato Chip. Thus in other words beyond Lexus the english language adopts the Japanese style.
Although you also need to consider that Lexus was a brand initially designed exclusively to appeal to the US market. It took over 15 years for them to launch Lexus in Japan.
For those who watch Alan Partridge[1], 'Lexi' would be likely to come to mind, as in one episode of the series "I'm Alan Partridge", Alan meets someone who, like him, loves his Lexus car. He looks forward to seeing two together and coins the term 'Lexi'. Creation of a faux-Latin term is very much the kind of behaviour the audience would expect.
A problem is not something to hide, it is an occasion to show your strengths.
It always seems silly to me that companies try to hide some kinds of problems that just inevitably pop up at companies of large enough size. By trying to hide a problem they usually expose themselves to risk of much worse PR disaster and loose occasion to come transparent about the issue and even gain points with customers for resolving it.
Also, this lesson is not just for companies, this can also be useful personally, very effectively.
---
It says something when there is an article about company getting "top" reputation for doing what is basically their job.
I've owned several Lexuses (Lexi?), and the one thing that struck me was the recalls, and how long they keep doing that.
I got my first experience when I bought an 2006 IS250. In 2014 (the car was now 8 years old) I got a recall letter that one of the windshield wiper bolts may not have been torqued to spec at the factory. Not kidding. I ignored this letter, as I was sure this was just some trick to get me to visit the dealership. After 2 months I got another letter telling me that this issue was not yet resolved, urging me to go get the free repair. I did.
In 2015 I had a complaint that the parcel shelf would make a creaking noise if the car was parked in the sun for a while. They replaced the parcel shelf under warranty (this was a 9 year old car at the time!).
In 2016 I got a recall that the fuel filter may not have been properly installed 10 years prior at the factory, so I got a free repair again.
Finally in 2018 (12 year old car), they replaced the passenger airbags free of charge, as there may be something wrong with those.
Their attention to quality is insane. In the 10+ years that I have owned Lexus cars (first an IS250, now an IS-F), I've had zero defects (that I had to pay for). That said, I do always bring in the car for service at dealership at the recommended intervals. Proper maintenance gets you a long way.
Most Japanese brands have a separate branch, mostly for the US market. Honda has Acura, Nissan has Infinity. AFAIK Lexus is the only branch that is sold worldwide under the same badge.
One thing I discovered recently is that vehicle maintenance and regular inspections are not a requirement in the US for it to be street-worthy, I found that surprising given how important cars are there in many cities.
Here in Italy cars must go through this inspection in their fourth year and then every two years, by law. Not doing that can get your vehicle confiscated. Same for insurance, it's illegal to drive without one.
It's worth noting that Toyota ended up paying $1.2 billion for concealing details and making deceptive statements about the 2009-2011 'unintended acceleration' issue that killed 5 people.
TIL. All I ever remember hearing about was that it was determined that the vehicles were NOT at fault and Toyota was exonerated. Sad that the follow on investigations wasn't as widely reported on, or at least I missed them.
Something like Richard Feynman's uncovering of NASA's Space Shuttle O-ring problem (which led to the Challenger disaster), Donald Norman's recap of the Three Mile Island disaster, and the examples detailed in the book Why Most Things Fail.
Know of any insider accounts?
My noob hunch (gleaned from popular reporting) is that Toyota outsourced this system, lacked institutional expertise to detect and prevent these kinds of failures. This outsourcing surprised me. Toyota was known for keeping some fraction of all work in-house, like battery production, explicitly to prevent this kind of organizational dysfunction. I'd like to know why these systems were handled differently. And what org changes they've made since.
Per Sandy Munro and the Autoline pundits, Tesla develops all of they own systems in-house. While I'm aware of their struggles, long term I think this is the better strategy.
Three years ago, I bought a second-hand 2008 Lexus.
The car had little pits in the arm rests and the dashboard was faded from the original black color. It turns out this was due to a defect in manufacturing. Earlier this year (2020!) Lexus replaced all the door coverings and the dash, without cost to me. They even gave me a loaner car to drive while the work was being done. On a second-hand, 12 year old car.
I don't know of any other manufacturer that would do that.
P.S. The car still runs great. Everything works as it should.
51 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 73.5 ms ] threadIn comparison when I bought a brand new “high end” VW that had major mechanical issues within the first few months (needed entire motor and gearbox replaced with 5k kms on the clock) they made me drop it in and get a taxi home, then tried to charge me extra for “storage” for picking it up late (I couldn’t get there on the day they said it was done). Similar horror stories for other dealerships.
Lexus aren’t the fanciest cars in the world, but what you get for the price and the overall owner experience after years of dealing with sleazy stingy dealerships has pretty much guaranteed I’ll always go back to them from now on.
Goes to show how far a bit of genuine customer care goes. Of course it’s a business decision and not purely then wanting to be nice, but it’s proven time and time again to create customers for life, and customers who’ll pay a premium purely to be treated like a human being.
That being said the Audi drove a hell of lot more smoothly and beautifully but just stuff needed to be tweaked and fixed all the time.
Toyota (and Lexus) just know how to make vehicles that run super well for long periods of time.
Is there scope for a levels.fyi for cars?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelley_Blue_Book
The company I work for, we can provide the original window sticker for a pre-owned vehicle.
This had been a desired feature for several years.
Now, dealerships no longer want the customer to see that info on a pre-owned vehicles, because it has the list price of the vehicle as new.
The pre-owned price is very close to the new price.
Also, why would one still buy a pre-owned vehicle if a new vehicle is available for a very similar price?
My guess on the reason for the pricing increases is several factors:
At the beginning of the ‘shutdown’, it affected auto auctions, where dealers obtain a decent amount of their pre-owned inventory, besides trade-ins.
Actual manufacturing shutdowns decreased new car outputs
The rescue package allowed for a substantial jolt for vehicle financing, and it is not uncommon now for people to finance a car for a 6 year term. There are also 7 year terms, now.
So, awash in finance money and limited supply.
Nearly all dealerships are run as franchises and there is no "standard" of care beyond some very basic rules. The owner of the dealership(not the manufacturer) will dictate how well the customers are treated and what kind of perks they get. You happened to find a decent Lexus dealership - maybe somewhere else there will be an equally nice Volkswagen dealership.
The thing that does matter is how quickly and easily the manufacturer approves repairs and warranty claims - in my experience Nissan was always dragging their feet, Mercedes was ok-ish, and Volvo was completely outstanding. But even then, it has little to do with "the manufacturer" and everything with their national HQ in whichever country you live in - some operate on tighter budgets so aren't as keen to approve repairs as others. In EU a good solution sometimes is to literally just drive across the border and try to get the repair done in a neighbouring country, if you aren't having luck getting the warranty claim approved.
I imagine if Toyota is going around building their Lexus brand around "concierge" level service, they could attach bonuses to this metric—maybe weight the bonus more heavily in that direction than they do for their Toyota brand—and punish dealerships that disappoint their customers.
Then again, a lot of dealerships are owned by huge dealer groups now, so the power balance isn't always tilted toward the manufacturer.
The margin on a VW isn't as high and costs significantly less on average than Lexus, so independent dealerships selling VWs have to operate on volume instead of long-term reputation and relationship building. The VW shops will be nice but don't have the time or budget for all the extra.
"Everything you described depends 100% on the individual dealership not on the brand."
This isn't the case. Just like different luxury-leaning domestic brands in Europe have levels of corporate ownership or incentive to provide certain services, leading Lexus also has what I assume is an incentive program for dealerships to offer different levels of lush care: https://www.lexus.com/guest-experience.
There will be outliers but the trends and reputations exist for often explicit reasons.
Lexus of Austin would have owners lined up out to the street every morning to get routine services done. The one here, not so much - and I don't think they understand what they're doing wrong and the business they're missing out on. I mean, when your customers prefer going to "Monkey-Lube" over you for their oil changes, that's a problem.
My experiences with Lexus Corporate have all been amazing. They replaced the dashboard about 4 years ago as part of a recall, on what was then a 12 year old SUV. I have never heard of a carmaker ever doing anything like that. Over the years I've owned nearly every brand [0], but when it comes time to replace it I want another Lexus.
[0] The Mercedes dealer was great, always getting me a service loaner. They would greet me and knew me by sight - because something went wrong on average every 8.5 weeks with my 1999 ML-320
[cries in metric]
All of these cars are going to have shit resale value very soon now.
Paging class action lawyers... there's a big juicy target out here just waiting to be seized. Selling cars when you know it has technology that's already dated and won't last long enough? Then not providing a way to remedy it? Gold!
Unless I’m miss understanding something about the feature (very likely), I think there would be a lot of people that wouldn’t care and it wouldn’t hurt the resale value that much.
Lets you locate the car. That means an insurance discount.
Tells you if it gets boosted while you're away from it.
All of that... gone.
Also beyond warranty period IMO it's reasonable expectation the owner pays for any upgrades.
I've got a similar problem with the navigation system in my Lexus - the last maps for the DVD-based system were published in 2015, and there won't be any more updates. I now know what it's like past the end of the sidewalk.[0]
For a vehicle as old as mine, technological obsolescence isn't really a concern - it will still start & run, the windows will go up & down, and I still have a real metal key. Will there be lawsuits around electronic modules not being available for newer cars? Probably. But I also expect that there will be small businesses that specialize in repairing these modules. There's one that repairs the Mark Levinson amplifiers [1] used in Lexus vehicles. $1500 + labor for a new one from the dealer, vs. $400 for a repaired one from them is pretty attractive.
[0] The underappreciated Shel Silverstein
[1] I believe most of the repairs are just replacing dead output transistors. Easy thru-hole soldering.
I went into a rabbit hole trying to find out the plural of Lexus. According to Toyota it's Lexus[1]. Lexi is another option, but apparently the brand name is not derived from the Latin term, so some lean towards Lexuses[2].
[1]: https://jalopnik.com/breaking-minds-and-spirits-everywhere-l...
[2]: https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012/03/lexus.html
Like how tsunami is never tsunamis. Or sushi is never sushis. One might argue that "eating sushi" implies multiples by the nature of sushi. Yet McDonalds sells French Fries not French Fry. Likewise we eat Potato Chips not Potato Chip. Thus in other words beyond Lexus the english language adopts the Japanese style.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Partridge
For what it's worth, Lexus as the plural form would even be consistent with Latin's fourth declension[0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_declension#Fourth_declen...
It always seems silly to me that companies try to hide some kinds of problems that just inevitably pop up at companies of large enough size. By trying to hide a problem they usually expose themselves to risk of much worse PR disaster and loose occasion to come transparent about the issue and even gain points with customers for resolving it.
Also, this lesson is not just for companies, this can also be useful personally, very effectively.
---
It says something when there is an article about company getting "top" reputation for doing what is basically their job.
I got my first experience when I bought an 2006 IS250. In 2014 (the car was now 8 years old) I got a recall letter that one of the windshield wiper bolts may not have been torqued to spec at the factory. Not kidding. I ignored this letter, as I was sure this was just some trick to get me to visit the dealership. After 2 months I got another letter telling me that this issue was not yet resolved, urging me to go get the free repair. I did.
In 2015 I had a complaint that the parcel shelf would make a creaking noise if the car was parked in the sun for a while. They replaced the parcel shelf under warranty (this was a 9 year old car at the time!).
In 2016 I got a recall that the fuel filter may not have been properly installed 10 years prior at the factory, so I got a free repair again.
Finally in 2018 (12 year old car), they replaced the passenger airbags free of charge, as there may be something wrong with those.
Their attention to quality is insane. In the 10+ years that I have owned Lexus cars (first an IS250, now an IS-F), I've had zero defects (that I had to pay for). That said, I do always bring in the car for service at dealership at the recommended intervals. Proper maintenance gets you a long way.
Most Japanese brands have a separate branch, mostly for the US market. Honda has Acura, Nissan has Infinity. AFAIK Lexus is the only branch that is sold worldwide under the same badge.
One thing I discovered recently is that vehicle maintenance and regular inspections are not a requirement in the US for it to be street-worthy, I found that surprising given how important cars are there in many cities.
Here in Italy cars must go through this inspection in their fourth year and then every two years, by law. Not doing that can get your vehicle confiscated. Same for insurance, it's illegal to drive without one.
https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-pay-12b-hiding-deadly-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–11_Toyota_vehicle_recalls
Something like Richard Feynman's uncovering of NASA's Space Shuttle O-ring problem (which led to the Challenger disaster), Donald Norman's recap of the Three Mile Island disaster, and the examples detailed in the book Why Most Things Fail.
Know of any insider accounts?
My noob hunch (gleaned from popular reporting) is that Toyota outsourced this system, lacked institutional expertise to detect and prevent these kinds of failures. This outsourcing surprised me. Toyota was known for keeping some fraction of all work in-house, like battery production, explicitly to prevent this kind of organizational dysfunction. I'd like to know why these systems were handled differently. And what org changes they've made since.
Per Sandy Munro and the Autoline pundits, Tesla develops all of they own systems in-house. While I'm aware of their struggles, long term I think this is the better strategy.
Thoughts?
The car had little pits in the arm rests and the dashboard was faded from the original black color. It turns out this was due to a defect in manufacturing. Earlier this year (2020!) Lexus replaced all the door coverings and the dash, without cost to me. They even gave me a loaner car to drive while the work was being done. On a second-hand, 12 year old car.
I don't know of any other manufacturer that would do that.
P.S. The car still runs great. Everything works as it should.