Never in my fevered dreams while wrestling with this kind of display gear and accompanying terminal experience in the dark ages of computing, cursing the foul limitations and wishing I could jump forward a few decades, did I ever imagine people would pay to get the same experience I was going through back then. Sure, today there is a nostalgic twinge for my long-trashed yute, but not so nostalgic to pay for reliving it.
These days, I want a cybernetic-augmented vision-nerves-proxy that projects as many windows and other visual artifacts as I want into my visual cone, and typing directly keyed off my brain's Broca's Area (or maybe the area for neuromuscular control of my fingers if using Broca's Area proves to yield too slow an input response). Hopefully powered by nano-powerplants hoovering up fatty acids and adipose cells from my blood, oxidizing into ATP, and generating electricity from the ATP. Hopefully thermal management is sufficient by drinking more water and exhaling more water vapor.
When I studied, X-Terminals were rare, and always in use as people used them to explore this wonderous new World Wide Web.
At the same time, we had rooms full of green text terminals that nobody bothered with anymore. You could just jump on one at any time. And because they were distraction-free, they were really great at getting actual work done. No facebook or yahoo or whatever crap it was at that time to distract you :) I kinda miss that. Though it's hard these days to work without documentation and stackoverflow on the side. But needing to invent every wheel did mean making better code in general, I think. It was just a lot slower.
But yeah I've been looking to replicate that experience for a long time. This isn't it though.
> ...we had rooms full of green text terminals that nobody bothered with anymore...> ...I've been looking to replicate that experience for a long time.
I am gobsmacked that eBay sellers are fetching $200+ USD on "vintage" DEC and similar terminals (there was a time they were going for $50 a pop, and if you got your timing right, you could haul them away for free from a university that was transitioning away from them), but if you can afford a big room, then you can afford a herd of terminals to stuff into them, and the serial multiplexer.
Handling distractions got easier when I identified the kind of tasks I really didn't personally like to do and what in my personality caused that antipathy, and set up reward systems for doing them at first, and later delegate them to an employee.
take a look at NexDock - laptop form factor, without the innards. just a keyboard, trackpad, screen, and battery waiting to connect to a phone, server rack, pi, or what have you.
I second this, have one of the Touch models - the build quality is great. Yes it works with my Samsung on which I have Ubuntu via VNC running on the phone. But also and more useful for me is it has HDMI in and USB out for keyboard and mouse, works perfectly for when you need a kvm setup. did I say the build quality is great?...
Only downside is the piece of junk trackpad that registers registering itself as a mouse and not a trackpad...resulting in no palm-rejection and crappy gesture functionality.
That's pretty cool. I wonder how hard it would be to add USB-C docking capability to an old server in my homelab. Seems like a graphics card with Virtual Link USB-C [0] would be ideal, but maybe overkill. There are some other options [1] but it's not clear to me how much graphic horsepower you need. Definitely a VGA-only motherboard is not gonna cut it...
So much this. I want a display, a VGA in, a keyboard and something that is capable of running a terminal and a switch for VGA in and the built-in Raspberry/Odroid/whatever. I would pay anything up to $500-600.
You can order a USB HDMI capture dongle for around USD 10 on AliExpress, e.g., from AIXXCO. It's not perfect but it should suffice to setup or debug a headless system. TinyPilot uses such a dongle for server KVM purposes.
I recently picked up a Motorola LapDock from eBay. It was originally used as a keyboard, trackpad, and screen in a laptop format for the Atrix smartphone, but with some converter cables, you can plug into any machine with HDMI and USB and use it exactly as you describe. It's finicky, but works well enough to be useful. Total cost for the LapDock and cables was under $100.
I think that’d be the use of it. Quick and simple stuff that you otherwise don’t want to configure a laptop around performing. It’s not a “use this for hours at a time” and daily driver. Not sure of the breadth of that use case.
Definitely think that's where they will be going. For most of us being the sort of dev that uses this sort of thing is a fantasy. For the very few it's a reality chances are they've already got something half as useful, 20x the price that will do one or 2 critical things this can't, and most will have not interest in creating and add-on so it can do them.
It very much looks like a cool toy and I am tempted to get one, but that's exactly what would happen to mine. And I expect that a significant portion of people who purchase it will also play with it for a couple hours and then never touch it again. Which makes me kind of upset that it's being manufactured. Feels like it's just encouraging creating more plastic/electronics waste.
Same here - on the other hand I'm thinking this would be the perfect type of computer for my kid to inherit from me (if I ever have one of those). It feels like the right format, intentionally hackable, open about how it works etc.
It feels closer to the Ataris' and Amigas' etc that many of use grew up with. Even if it doesn't live up to that kind of flexibility, it's far better than the damage of handing a kid an android or iOS "appliance".
The problem is not making these things available but the impulsive buyers who get these with no project in mind. All these soc are not really meant to replace a daily driver but be project specific and only imagination is the blocker here.
Personally I applaud the trend of making these devices. They will inspire countless future hackers the way a lot of us have been inspired before.
Having the display at some angle would dramatically improve the ergonomics. I guess joints+ffc would increase cost quite a bit, but even a fixed angle would be improvement
Seems terribly unergonomic. A laptop is bad enough. This doesn’t even have a full size keyboard. What is with that layout?
I like the concept, but it needs to be two pieces - screen and keyboard - so they can be positioned appropriately, and it needs a full size keyboard with a track point.
To me, the physicality of one of the "fantasy consoles" mixed with a bit more power might make for some interesting games and projects. The only thing I would wonder is if they could tilt that screen up a bit like an AlphaSmart.
The flat design would seem to make this even less ergonomic than a laptop (an already low bar). Is this meant to be placed on a desk? The user would basically have to hang their head down to look at the display, which is just in front of their fingers. There is no possible way to maintain a healthy posture without an external display.
Otherwise, the retro hardware aesthetic is cool. Reminds me a bit of the early briefcase-format portable computers. I can't think of any actual use I would have for a thermal printer, but I like the idea of it.
My thought exactly. I had great fun with my HX-20. That and a Tandy/Sharp Pocket Computer were my first programming experiences as a young child; I spent hours programming both.
Yeah we had a tandy 102 that was my dad's and that was the first thing I thought when I looked at it. It was a fun little computer my son used to write basic programs on it.
Also mind the various siblings of the TRS-80 Model 100, the NEC PC-8201(A), the Olivetti M-10, and the Kyotronic 85, which share the same basic design (by Kyocera).
Funnily enough, the Model 100 I bought at an electronics surplus store had two plastic rods with rubber feet included. You could push them into the screw wells on the back so that the Model 100 was angled like a desktop keyboard.
My laptop screen bends 180 degrees fully flat on the desk, I use this configuration with an external monitor but no external keyboard. Maybe that's how you would use this system most of the time, just plug an external monitor and ignore the built-in one.
This kind of form factor is called a cyberdeck, and is inspired by cyberpunk fiction and roleplaying games. Most of the community has now converged on screens that tilt up for practicality's sake, but the flat ones do have a retro charm.
inspired by cyberpunk fiction and roleplaying games
It's a near copy of the TRS-80 Model 100. It's so close that the people behind this project have been flogging it on TRS-80 mailing lists and other fora.
I wonder, how can I find mailing lists that align with my interests? I am not interested in TRS-80, but I wonder if there are mailing lists for other topics that I am interested in
>DevTerm is a post-modern, digital minimalist lifestyle.
It's more about signaling to others that you embody the "hacker lifestyle" than anything else. Looks cool, your friends will ooh and ahh over it, but probably won't get much use outside of that due to the ergonomics.
> There is no possible way to maintain a healthy posture without an external display.
I know a physical therapist who would strongly disagree with
this; in fact he explicitly recommends to use a laptop for
ergonomic reasons unless you can achieve a proper, ergonomic
setup with an external screen. The reason being that if used
properly(laptop far back so you can rest the whole forearms and
elbows on the table) the angles and positioning are supposed to
be pretty good.
I'm not an expert in this area myself, but some of my problems
were alleviated by following his advice and he only uses a
laptop himself, so I believe him on that one.
That said you're right in that this flat design without a
foldable screen is not exactly made for long work hours. I'd
say for a session on the go with the device sitting on the lap
it could be worse, though at least a detachable/external
keyboard would help a lot.
> the angles and positioning are supposed to be pretty good
This seems hard to imagine, your neck is still going to be strained by looking "down" on the screen all the time. If you have to work with a laptop and don't have access to an external screen at least put it up on a pile of books and use an external keyboard / mouse. That doesn't cost much and improves your posture so much.
Experience and my neck agrees with you. Sitting properly, my neck would has to be at about a 35° - 45° angle to see the screen at all. It's a guaranteed tension headache.
It is, but real experience tells me it can work well.
As I mentioned, having a proper setup with an external screen(or
your equivalent suggestion of propping up the laptop and using
external input devices) is better in comparison, but knowing how
to properly use a laptop if that's not possible is important as
well.
As it literally says in that text you linked, not every posture
works for everyone. I did not claim that a laptop leads to the
best situation for ergonomics, I just wanted to debunk the
"there's no way using a laptop could ever be healthy" claim
which both a professional I know as well as my own experience
don't agree with. It can be healthy, though admittedly most
people don't do it right.
I'm glad I listened to his advice because it seemed to fix my
issues for good. If you found a comfortable setup that's
different then that's great as well.
Clearly we need something like OSHA to enforce minimal workplace safety, but is OSHA meaningful as an authority on general health issues like computer use? A couple of years ago I might have said yes, but after recent events I find it really hard to put much weight on the opinions of these bureaucratic agencies.
The truth is, it's really hard to do a double-blinded study for these kinds long-term health concerns.
That quote is specifically in reference to this flat device. I agree that with a laptop you can achieve a relatively ergonomic posture if you set it up the way you describe, which minimises the "hunch" and strain, although you can do much better with some accessories. When I work away from home I use a laptop with a laptop stand ( https://www.therooststand.com/ ) and external HIDs.
Of course, any good physical therapist will tell you that no hardware can offset the damage of long-term sedentary work. One might say that more active time is the best ergonomic solution.
The display is 6.5", so this is about the footprint of an iPad Mini. That, and considering it has gamepad buttons in the upperleft and upperright corners of the keyboard, I supsect you're expected to hand-hold it.
I find it hard to buy into this popular notion that the head isn't designed to look downwards: People have been reading books like this for thousands of years.
This version of ergonomics that implies "your neck is going to snap off if you look down" is suspect to me.
We’ve been looking straight ahead and hunting things for much longer than we’ve been reading books. Looking straight down is definitely poor ergonomics.
It seems like a person would have to look down if they are making a flint tool from a rock, or when they are butchering a kill, or when they are gathering berries.
It's not a matter of design. We can look downwards and work in many positions, yes. However, is it healthy to work this way on a regular basis? I doubt it, but I am open to seeing evidence. I know that for me, it is not a good position; it will cause me back, neck and shoulder pain, and headaches if I work that way.
Anecdotally, I know many avid readers that have developed forward head posture and various pains from their habit.
I'm not sure people have been reading books flat on a desk or in their lap for thousands of years. After all, literacy was not widespread until relatively recent times. Furthermore, many scholar of the past would read and write on an erect, angled surface when possible: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/mediev... . Personally, I prefer to do the same when reading for any extended period of time.
> People have been reading books like this for thousands of years
This does not make it healthy.
Besides, it's wrong: very few people had access to books for "thousands of years" and almost always they were kept on a reading stand, both due to the weight and to keep them safe and clean.
A simple google image search for "reading book" shows that people read at different angles, from in front of the face, to 45 degrees and indeed straight down on the table, or in the lap.
But unlike with this, we can easily shift position and angle with our books.
> I can't think of any actual use I would have for a thermal printer, but I like the idea of it.
Is that beige thing labelled Expansion Port a thermal printer? That's what it looked like to me but I couldn't find it identified as such anywhere.
I like the idea, too. I also suspect like you it would turn out to be completely useless. But I can also imagine you might find one or two use cases that turn it into a killer feature and totally validate the entire device.
Because, as someone brilliantly said above, it's more about signaling to others that you embody the "hacker lifestyle" than anything else.
The minimalist lifestyle of repurposing an old device, not buying an extra one, would fail to signal your "hacker spirit" as you would not stand out so much - unless say, you add bolts reminiscent of frankenstein to the side of the screen, but you'd need a good excuse, or you might get called out.
This perfectly achieves the goal, with plausible deniability for the bolts: "it was built like that to make opening faster" - as if Phillips head screwdrivers were at a premium...
I would use it with the adhesive thermal paper for labelling up infrastructure, it sounds like it could make a decent administration machine. An Ethernet jack might be needed though.
I think there's lots of creative use cases for it, I could imagine printing out chunks of my source code as I'm programming, to reference as I work on other parts.
DevTerm is a retro-entertainment terminal. Powerful hardware allows you to smoothly relive the history of various famous video games, software, and even vintage systems. DevTerm provides you with the latest open-source OS, rich applications, and development tools, from Web browsers, multimedia APPs to many indie-game engines.
One more thing, just like LEGO, Gundam, Tamiya, the unique unboxing experience will be as exciting as many assembled toys.
As many have noticed, it is quite expensive and unergonomic. Their selling point is entertainment, nostalgia and cyberpunk feel, not really a useful tool. Quite cool if you are into that.
That beige thing at the top right is labelled Expansion Port. For some reason, I really want it to be the output for one of those built-in scroll printers like you'd find on an old calculator. I suspect it could be surprisingly useful. I could also imagine it being a complete waste of space and engineering.
From what I am understanding, that's exactly what that is. It looks like the shop sells the device with or without the `58mm 200dpi thermal printer component`.
OT: I fell into the rabbit hole of designing hardware (something like this). Just don't do it, it's super fun but it doesn't pay off: every SoC is different and you start with every SoC from scratch and waste tons of time. Prototyping is slow, you need min 2 weeks for every iteration (for smaller endeavors) and the worst, 98% of hardware-based business models are weak and don't provide any lock-in.
They're basing this (and their other product, the GameShell, which looks like an old Gameboy) on the Raspberry Pi compute module. I believe they have their own PCB to fit into their formfactors, but the SoC should be well-supported.
If you like this you may like the cyberdeck subreddit. It's mostly homebrew computer cases (often using Raspberry Pi's) with various displays, keyboards, radios, etc., intended to look futuristic/cyberpunk.
The slight noise would suggest they're ray-traced... Could be Blender with the Cycles renderer (perfectly capable of doing photo-realistic renders) or any of the wide array of commercial renderers out there...
agree. I just discovered it browsing around from this article, and was disappointed to see you can't actually buy one. Would have made a great Christmas gift!
Yeah, I just got mine in hand a couple of days ago.
First impressions: the default setup is surprisingly good, for what it is. Works a lot better out-of-box than my Ouya ever did, for what it's worth.
Buttons are a little squishy. Not every app supports the menu button. I've had to hard-power-off the device to get out of certain apps. The back-side strip of buttons is a little awkward, though I understand why they did it that way (it's meant to be an add-on).
There is a port next to the USB port that isn't labeled or documented on the website. I think it's HDMI Type D "Micro".
Hooooly hell, there is ZERO documentation for this thing. How do you actually write games for it? I guess you just make a standard GTK application, from what I can see in the forums. There's support for a few popular fantasy consoles and emulators, but making a native app is not clear.
Also, it has an SSH server on by default, but I've yet to be able to get connected to it. Nothing on the forums about it. They just say "you just SSH in over the WiFi".
EDIT: LOL, whoever put this together before me put the speakers in upside down.
It's really easy to connect to the device over SSH. Just open the tiny cloud app and read the directions on the screen. On my macbook I just open terminal, type 'ssh cpi@<ip address>' and the password is also just 'cpi'. There's loads of information on the forums for this as well, but you can start here: https://forum.clockworkpi.com/t/how-to-transfer-files-with-t...
As for creating native games, that's not really the intention with this thing. It's more for running fantasy consoles on or running any of the many included emulators. I use mine to playtest my Pico8 games and play new releases.
Yeah, I did all that. I think there is something wrong with the WiFi on the device. It can connect to my WAP just fine, but any operation involving a network update (like refreshing the Warehouse listing, or updating software) fails.
170 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 234 ms ] threadThese days, I want a cybernetic-augmented vision-nerves-proxy that projects as many windows and other visual artifacts as I want into my visual cone, and typing directly keyed off my brain's Broca's Area (or maybe the area for neuromuscular control of my fingers if using Broca's Area proves to yield too slow an input response). Hopefully powered by nano-powerplants hoovering up fatty acids and adipose cells from my blood, oxidizing into ATP, and generating electricity from the ATP. Hopefully thermal management is sufficient by drinking more water and exhaling more water vapor.
At the same time, we had rooms full of green text terminals that nobody bothered with anymore. You could just jump on one at any time. And because they were distraction-free, they were really great at getting actual work done. No facebook or yahoo or whatever crap it was at that time to distract you :) I kinda miss that. Though it's hard these days to work without documentation and stackoverflow on the side. But needing to invent every wheel did mean making better code in general, I think. It was just a lot slower.
But yeah I've been looking to replicate that experience for a long time. This isn't it though.
I am gobsmacked that eBay sellers are fetching $200+ USD on "vintage" DEC and similar terminals (there was a time they were going for $50 a pop, and if you got your timing right, you could haul them away for free from a university that was transitioning away from them), but if you can afford a big room, then you can afford a herd of terminals to stuff into them, and the serial multiplexer.
Handling distractions got easier when I identified the kind of tasks I really didn't personally like to do and what in my personality caused that antipathy, and set up reward systems for doing them at first, and later delegate them to an employee.
[0] https://uploadvr.com/every-virtuallink-gpu/
[1] https://dancharblog.wordpress.com/2020/07/20/add-usb-c-with-...
Seems like the Pinebook guys could make a decent competitor.
Found nothing so far.
Edit: forgot RJ45.
It's not a turn-key solution, but it's not that far off.
It feels closer to the Ataris' and Amigas' etc that many of use grew up with. Even if it doesn't live up to that kind of flexibility, it's far better than the damage of handing a kid an android or iOS "appliance".
Personally I applaud the trend of making these devices. They will inspire countless future hackers the way a lot of us have been inspired before.
I like the concept, but it needs to be two pieces - screen and keyboard - so they can be positioned appropriately, and it needs a full size keyboard with a track point.
You could just about hack something up like this with a tablet that can run Linux and a Thinkpad keyboard, like this one: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/accessories-and-monitors/new-ar...
To me, the physicality of one of the "fantasy consoles" mixed with a bit more power might make for some interesting games and projects. The only thing I would wonder is if they could tilt that screen up a bit like an AlphaSmart.
Otherwise, the retro hardware aesthetic is cool. Reminds me a bit of the early briefcase-format portable computers. I can't think of any actual use I would have for a thermal printer, but I like the idea of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Model_100
https://www.masswerk.at/rc2016/01/01.html
It's a near copy of the TRS-80 Model 100. It's so close that the people behind this project have been flogging it on TRS-80 mailing lists and other fora.
>DevTerm is a post-modern, digital minimalist lifestyle.
It's more about signaling to others that you embody the "hacker lifestyle" than anything else. Looks cool, your friends will ooh and ahh over it, but probably won't get much use outside of that due to the ergonomics.
> It's more about signaling to others that you embody the "hacker lifestyle" than anything else.
The minimalist lifestyle would be repurposing an old device, not buying an extra one.
I know a physical therapist who would strongly disagree with this; in fact he explicitly recommends to use a laptop for ergonomic reasons unless you can achieve a proper, ergonomic setup with an external screen. The reason being that if used properly(laptop far back so you can rest the whole forearms and elbows on the table) the angles and positioning are supposed to be pretty good.
I'm not an expert in this area myself, but some of my problems were alleviated by following his advice and he only uses a laptop himself, so I believe him on that one.
That said you're right in that this flat design without a foldable screen is not exactly made for long work hours. I'd say for a session on the go with the device sitting on the lap it could be worse, though at least a detachable/external keyboard would help a lot.
This seems hard to imagine, your neck is still going to be strained by looking "down" on the screen all the time. If you have to work with a laptop and don't have access to an external screen at least put it up on a pile of books and use an external keyboard / mouse. That doesn't cost much and improves your posture so much.
It is, but real experience tells me it can work well.
As I mentioned, having a proper setup with an external screen(or your equivalent suggestion of propping up the laptop and using external input devices) is better in comparison, but knowing how to properly use a laptop if that's not possible is important as well.
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/index....
I'm glad I listened to his advice because it seemed to fix my issues for good. If you found a comfortable setup that's different then that's great as well.
> a professional I know
Please provide proper sources, not random hearsay.
The truth is, it's really hard to do a double-blinded study for these kinds long-term health concerns.
Of course, any good physical therapist will tell you that no hardware can offset the damage of long-term sedentary work. One might say that more active time is the best ergonomic solution.
This version of ergonomics that implies "your neck is going to snap off if you look down" is suspect to me.
Anecdotally, I know many avid readers that have developed forward head posture and various pains from their habit.
I'm not sure people have been reading books flat on a desk or in their lap for thousands of years. After all, literacy was not widespread until relatively recent times. Furthermore, many scholar of the past would read and write on an erect, angled surface when possible: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/medieval-world/mediev... . Personally, I prefer to do the same when reading for any extended period of time.
This does not make it healthy.
Besides, it's wrong: very few people had access to books for "thousands of years" and almost always they were kept on a reading stand, both due to the weight and to keep them safe and clean.
But unlike with this, we can easily shift position and angle with our books.
Is that beige thing labelled Expansion Port a thermal printer? That's what it looked like to me but I couldn't find it identified as such anywhere.
I like the idea, too. I also suspect like you it would turn out to be completely useless. But I can also imagine you might find one or two use cases that turn it into a killer feature and totally validate the entire device.
The minimalist lifestyle of repurposing an old device, not buying an extra one, would fail to signal your "hacker spirit" as you would not stand out so much - unless say, you add bolts reminiscent of frankenstein to the side of the screen, but you'd need a good excuse, or you might get called out.
This perfectly achieves the goal, with plausible deniability for the bolts: "it was built like that to make opening faster" - as if Phillips head screwdrivers were at a premium...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Model_100
Then an ex lost it reading Fifty Shades in an airport, and you can't buy them any more.
I'm saving up for a Remarkable.
It would at least be aptly retro.
https://old.reddit.com/r/cyberDeck/top/?sort=top&t=year
https://www.clockworkpi.com/gameshell
First impressions: the default setup is surprisingly good, for what it is. Works a lot better out-of-box than my Ouya ever did, for what it's worth.
Buttons are a little squishy. Not every app supports the menu button. I've had to hard-power-off the device to get out of certain apps. The back-side strip of buttons is a little awkward, though I understand why they did it that way (it's meant to be an add-on).
There is a port next to the USB port that isn't labeled or documented on the website. I think it's HDMI Type D "Micro".
Hooooly hell, there is ZERO documentation for this thing. How do you actually write games for it? I guess you just make a standard GTK application, from what I can see in the forums. There's support for a few popular fantasy consoles and emulators, but making a native app is not clear.
Also, it has an SSH server on by default, but I've yet to be able to get connected to it. Nothing on the forums about it. They just say "you just SSH in over the WiFi".
EDIT: LOL, whoever put this together before me put the speakers in upside down.
As for creating native games, that's not really the intention with this thing. It's more for running fantasy consoles on or running any of the many included emulators. I use mine to playtest my Pico8 games and play new releases.