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Ask HN: Should We Move Again?

6 points by _pygv ↗ HN
I started a ML-based algotrading project in March by working with a flat mate in France. To this day, it has been really doing well (Our trading volume of yesterday was 1.6B usd).

When it started doing well, around June, we started thinking about going somewhere else: we wanted a change of lifestyle and lower taxes. After arguing for a long time, we ended up choosing Budapest, and we moved there about two weeks ago. We signed a lease here, and we are in the process of moving the funds from an existing french company to a Hungarian company, yet to be created. This process involves two teams of lawyers (we spent around 20k in lawyers fees so far). The lawyers are currently reviewing what is the best way to transfert. To our surprise, this is really complicated. We are now a team of 5, my partner and I moved from France to Budapest, and a 3rd guy plans to join us "on-site" next Feb. The plan is that 3 of us work from our apartment in Budapest, 2 remotely.

My issue is that I don't like it here and I don't feel good. I though there would be meetups & a tech/ML scene here, and there isn't, at least not a big one. Starting from day 2 of arriving in Budapest, I had a constant headache of varying intensity (I never had that in my entire life before). I sleep ok but not great, and I feel depressed. I think I miss exercice, but gyms & pools are closed, and don't want to run everyday because the pollution is high in this period.

The issue is that starting a process to go somewhere else is quite complicated. It would involve cancelling the lease and changing the lawyers plans & work so far. It's mostly my partner who did the work of coordinating with the lawyers, and he likes life here. Not committing here would also delay the process of moving the company out of France, and I estimate this cost to be around 100-300k per month of additional taxes.

Should we move again?

12 comments

[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 37.5 ms ] thread
PragmaticPulp
> My issue is that I don't like it here and I don't feel good.

At this point, your top priority should be getting your lifestyle back on track. Relocating to another location without thoroughly vetting it could just make your problems worse.

If you're processing billions of dollars in volume and you're worried about taxes on the order of $500K per month, you should have plenty of budget to use for travel. Spend some time traveling and trying different locations. You don't have to move the entire company just to visit some place.

Never move to a different country unless you've spent significant time there and you know you enjoy it. People always talk about moving to foreign countries as a panacea, or describe the "ex-pat" lifestyle in glamorous ways, but the reality is that most of us are happiest being around friends and family and operating in places that we know best.

_pygv
Thanks for the advice.

In my life I did move a few times and never experienced symptoms like this, and it definitely took me by surprise. Before moving there, we considered "just trying it" by renting an airbnb. But we figured that there is not much difference between "just trying it" and actually moving there because we were only two back then. And our company was just us + our desktop computers. So we did move, but we kind of forgot we were in test-mode in the process.

Budget definitely is not the issue to move places, but visa/covid/taxes are. It might also make my french tax non-resident status harder to get if I'm moving all over the place. But as you said, my top priority now is getting better.

dennisgorelik
> Never move to a different country unless you've spent significant time there and you know you enjoy it.

It is not that hard to evaluate a country remotely.

Back in 1999 I picked the US as my destination country.

I moved to the US back in 2003 (as soon as it became possible) - without ever visiting the US prior to that.

I am happy with my country choice and never exited the US since I entered it back in 2003.

dyeje
If you're already planning on having remote employees, why not be remote yourself?
_pygv
One of the reasons for this whole relocation operation was to bring more of us together. But at that point I'm willing to question that, because my top priority now is to get better.
seekingcharlie
Considering the low taxes and inexpensive cost of living, it's probably not the worst idea in the world to keep your company there.

It sounds like you personally should travel some place else and work remotely. Every company is working remote now anyway and you can always return to your team for short trips.

sigmaprimus
You are the one who has to live there, if it was me I would give it a bit longer. Have You looked into other social scenes besides ML?

https://www.internations.org/budapest-expats

I've never been there but if it's like any other city, moving a few KMs in any direction should bring you to a different community. Maybe You just ended up in the wrong part of town, with the pollution and an unpleasant vibe.

There should be some sort of promoting ambassadors organization where for a small fee, locals will properly introduce You to the city with a personal tour.

Unfortunately because of the pandemic most places suck right now.

sdrinf
Originally from Hungary, lived in Budapest between 2002-2008, currently in San Francisco, have been visiting the country since 2008 every year for 2 weeks. It's hard for me to overstate how bad of a choice Hungary is for anything remotely related to tech/business/trading. Hungarian law is convoluted, and generally made by & for large corps; taxation (outside of the small business sector which you don't qualify for) is high, corruption is high, people are low and hopeless. Hungary also went through consequent phases of massive brain drain (2003, 2008, 2011). For the remaining people, Hungary's USP is "you can have sex here", which won't be applicable to you. For anyone else, the lack of compelling things to do, intelligence to work together with, and a proper functional system that isn't adversarial to entrepreneural action makes it an unlivably hostile system. Strongly recommend leaving as soon as feasible.
iordachej
Didn’t you read the newspapers before moving ? EU has just two problematic-countries regarding the control of politics over the justice. They are Hungary and Poland. Why would anyone move their wallet in a country that has shut down foreign universities? No more freedom of speach, no law to help you, a high dose of nationalism - that’s what your choise is.
jeremycochoy
Although after doing some research I figured out what you are referencing for Hungary with some googling, some references would have been appreciated. Do you have some references about poland/hungaey, and more specifically how it can impact a business?
iordachej
Investigating this should be your part. The fact that the democracy itself is threatened with nationalism ideas should be a big warning sign. Look at their political scene, seems like there is not much opposition left and without it the future is dark. Maybe your headaches are a good thing, signs for a bad decision.
ixacto
Feel free to bring your business the United States! You would need to bring at least 1.8MMUSD for tho for a visa.

There are many states NY/CT/MA that already have lots of finance-related companies located there and good availability of lawyers.

There is also the Delaware Court of Chancery which is very good for business. https://courts.delaware.gov/chancery/

Also if you are looking for webdev hmu I'm looking.