Ask HN: Losing all interest in programming, what now?
I lost interest in my career several years ago, but now I think I’m just losing interest in programming in general. I sat down the other night to get started in a grand project I’ve been getting so excited about and I just couldn’t and this seems to be pretty common lately. The projects I dream up are super cool feats of hacker ability, but then much of what’s involved in doing it just feels tedious and I know I’m going to be stuck screwing around with the most trivial boilerplate crap. Most of the time these days, my projects always get delayed for one reason or another. Normally it gets expensive or it requires me to be good at something I’m just not, or I just get stuck on something where I have no idea where to look for answer because it’s so indescribably niche. Of course, as in the example I stated earlier, I look at the boilerplate involved look at the code required to do what I want I my brain just shuts off and my eyes glaze over. I’ve never been particularly good at anything, but at least I was somewhat driven in the past. Now, I can’t even get to work on the projects that do interest me. I lose motivation too easily (i.e. if I see someone working on something cooler). Most of the times my projects end up “delayed indefinitely”
This isn’t a case of getting out of my comfort zone and trying other subfields either. That’s what I’ve been trying to do for 2 or 3 years, but nothing really interests me and the things that do... well, refer to the previous paragraph. The most recent project is very wide and covers many things, but I constantly lose and gain interest on it before even starting any work.
Sure I have things outside programming that interest me, but nothing conductive to hands on, hobbyist work, do at best, I’m stuck passively consuming content related to those.
So I’m not sure what to do now. How can I get the spark I used to have back,
177 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 220 ms ] threadIt's been a fucking rough year or five.
Everyone that's having issues should talk to their doctor and/or see a therapist. They know what they are doing.
The whole point of therapy is not that they are superhuman who can fix the world. The point is having another person, whom you trust, and who has experience of how to help people, to take a good look at you. They discuss with they see, and suggest simple things you could do. The thing is - nothing is stopping you doing those things without a therapist. But you likely are not aware what the specific single things to help you are. Otherwise you would be doing those, and not needing a therapist.
Naw. It ain't going to be cheaper. More adrenaline causing perhaps, but not cheaper. Between buying accessories, upgrades, and different styles, you'll be paying them off for awhile.
One a more serious note: Riding a motorcycle won't cure depression. Depression, on the other hand, can make you not want to motorcycle anymore.
It's a nice escape, but I definitely think dealing with these feelings directly by talking them out with a therapist / journaling / meditation is the only way to deal with them effectively (although it's still hard)
I guess gist is, do something you enjoy for hours without any goals or any pressure. It should make you tired at end of day. And then you will start feeling good.
In covid-era, luckily I picked up cooking as hobby and survived.
God, they should make a work week of 4 days. I am really jealous of europeans (spicifically scandinavian countries ) where work-life balance is highly prioritized
The problem with this form of diagnosis is that everything the OP mentioned is in relation to one single activity: programming. It's entirely possible (and should be considered, if the rest of their life is still good) that their interests have simply shifted away from programming without a mental disorder to go along with it.
That said, yeah, take it up with a professional, if only to rule depression out.
"Take a 3 month break and come back to it". I'm back. I don't want to do programming anymore.
"Ok you should play video games and not do anything productive, then come back to it". Cool, just finished Days Gone and i'm replaying BioShock. I don't want to do programming anymore.
"You're just burned out and depressed, find a therapist, take medicine, etc.". Did that. I'm on Welbutrin and my therapist says I should look into changing fields, maybe going back to school. Easy right? I don't want to do programming anymore.
"It's all mental, meditate". I sit outside on my deck every weekend and just enjoy the outdoors. I still don't want to write programs.
"Buy a motorcycle". I already have one and I love it, but I still don't want to write programs.
After many years of feeling this way and getting the answers like the above, any answer not in the realm of "you can move to X field with relative ease and maintain the same salary/benefits" doesn't feel like it's going to help. It seems my only option is to just accept defeat
I went through this for about 3 years after my divorce. I couldn't find motivation or joy in anything. I turned to helping other people solve their problems because at least I was helping others to get through what I couldn't figure out how to get through myself. There was a lot of time spent in reflection and introspection and about a million cups of tea drank while looking out of the window trying to will myself to do something, anything. It was a tough run, I was just dragging myself out of it when COVID hit and kicked me while I was already down. I think I'm just beginning to be back on the rise again now. I can't promise I've got any advice that can help, but it certainly sounds like you are where I've been.
Do you consider this to be a good thing? Doing the same now, and wondering if it’s okay.
How good it is depends on a person and their ability to understand help as opposed to owning other peoples problems. It can be easy to get sucked into all that and make things worse.
Assuming all that is reasonable, I find helping others energizing. And it exercises skills that may be getting dull or increasingly hard to relate to.
FWIW
Like I say though, often you won't really know if what you are doing is a good thing until you look back on it and you see that the person you helped has moved forward. Some people just don't want to be helped and no matter how much effort you put it, you're not helping. But it's really difficult to see that while you're in the midst of it.
Just keep doing what you're doing while you have the motivation to do something. Get what you can out of the experience - the energy I got from helping other people even just to find their smile in the midst of something they felt they couldn't get out from under was enough to say that today I did good.
And take it day by day.
It probably does, but not in the way you might expect - takes you out of despair, but not out of the burnout.
I keep this cartoon in my bookmarks, because it says it better.
http://www.lunarbaboon.com/comics/miserable.html
I'm nothing close to a trained psychologist or counselor, but maybe a good first step is to determine if it's only programming that excites you, or seemingly unrelated parts of life as well.
I suspect that finding a worthwhile path forward depends a lot on that detail.
Still figuring it out. I’m dipping my toes back in to programming a little learning Rust and embedded programming and it’s nice to feel the thrill (and frustration) of being clueless. I’m trying to get in touch with my creative side more with music. But mostly just taking it a day at a time, hiking a lot, cooking, and trying to find peace in the day-to-day rather than trying to push myself to be “productive” (whatever that means).
Having been in your position, I know sometimes all you can do is hang in there and not much else.
You can never predict when the upturn will come...but it sounds like with some restorative activities (your hiking, cooking, music) you are on the right track even if it doesn’t feel like it.
most people who are suffering have no clue how badly they have it.
I felt very similarly. My wife and I were both VERY burnt out. Quit work and just lived on savings for far too long. We just couldn't find _any_ desire to do the hobbies we loved for like 7 months. Even then it was just _barely_ beginning to get the spark again.
Burnout sucks.
Really if I think about it, the movie Office Space nailed it. Go do something else, coding will always be here.
For me it was writing but I think its translatable.
1) See the logistics tasks I have as not "my" logistics, in other words getting some professional distance back I didn't realize I lost
2) Do it really for someone else, in my case, I turned consultant of sorts. That supports point 1), it also means I have a client now who hired for a clearly defined, concret task. So in a way, I am not simply doing it for myself
Especially the "not doing it for myself" part helped a lot. It prevented me from burning because I am less personally invested. And it also means, by doing for someone else, that I have an outside goal I can "serve".
Put in other words, not doing things because I want and I considered them cool solved my prioritiation issues. And doing for really someone else, solved my personal investment problem. For now at least.
EDIT: A hobby, how could I forget that. In my case, a 1982 Range Rover. Besides the engine and gearbox, I tore everything appart in the last 2.5 years. Never touched a car before that, so. Yeah, doing something completely different, completely new without the oal being money helped.
I recommend F#.
You seem to be concerned with... delivery. I find that the prospect of starting a project that may never get completed is a showstopper for me and so I've let go the idea of ever achieving anything a couple years back. You might discover things are perfectly fine like that.
Maybe you just need some rest. I know everybody is hellbent on doing side projects and moonlighting over here, but seriously, you most likely don't need that to live a full life or even put food on the table and pay the bills.
These days, I start with the premise that everybody is exhausted and feel like shit and that's normal. Hang in there baby, things will get better.
So long as it's not burnout (or depression, etc - a counselor is a great resource here), often the best thing to do is to find other things that excite you in the time you're not at work.
If nothing is interesting, take a break from trying and play video games or watch tv for a year. Youre going to bump up against a lot of potential interests, and one might naturally take off.
For me, that new interest has been electronic music production. And I don’t follow any predefined path. Instead, I just go in the direction it takes me. For now, that’s been developing 4 bar loops and hoarding gear. Those are the antithesis of a productive producer.
But I remember how I got started in software collecting warez and keygens without any real rhyme or reason. That lead to me wanting to know how software was cracked, built, then how businesses and careers were built, learned a lot about leadership as a byproduct of having a career, etc.
So, while it might sound cliche, open your mind and follow your heart and don’t be too hard on yourself. It’s ok to relax, breathe, and enjoy the life you’ve carved out for yourself so far.
This is exactly what I came to after also losing interest in my job defining who I am. I came to the same conclusion, work is just work. I do it purely for the money and fulfilment in mentoring. The products we make seem entirely meta to the overall human cause. Modern life has little meaning, it's so abstract. You rarely ever get to see any use in the output of your efforts.
Creating something for yourself, something real and tangible, is one way of finding something small and finding that satisfaction one misses in the toil of daily life.
Or philosophically, your personal choices on whatever takes your fancy are the reasons for working; they are a higher meaning to life than working to feed and house yourself.
I can't emphasize this enough. Your career shouldn't define you. It should be a byproduct of who you are. Not the defining trait. It's hard to realize this at the beginning when you are trying to climb the ladder but after 20 years you begin to realize:
In the end you die, if you didn't live a life you want, it's your fault. Open your heart, get in touch with that inner kid, do hobbies and things that excite you. It's ok to change.
I know what you mean there, and I've gotten there a few years ago, but I'm still not entirely satisfied with my overall situation.
What I find is that as I get older and progress in my career, new "challenges" are things I never signed up for, and have no interest in.
I was rather satisfied with things as a junior and then mid level engineer. I was assigned tasks/projects, got them done, called it a day. The paycheck was already pretty good. I wasn't particularly interested in a promotion to senior, given how stressed out senior engineers seem to be. I had (and still have) no interest in taking on leadership roles, much less management. I already get anxious enough about my own responsibilities, so no, thanks, I don't want to be responsible for other peoples' actions as well.
It's all moot though. Despite having made the above clear to my managers, they promoted me to senior. And now whenever I try to retreat into doing individual, technical work, they throw the "that's not work suitable for your level" card at me. I'm being coerced into a leadership role to build an entirely new service, despite 1. having never built a service from the ground up, 2. having never been on a team that did it (thus being exposed to the decisions being made), and 3. having no particular interest in it. I'm expected to be the person who makes cross-team collaboration happen, despite not being a "people person." And I'm expected to do all that while mentoring younger team members, despite having no reasonable time to do so.
Companies pay lip service to the whole idea of helping you define your career goals and direction, but it only really applies to when you do what they have in mind for you.
One of the things I regret most about my time in grad school is not mentoring younger students / interns. I was only frantically trying to prove how great I was (to salvage my downtrodden ego). I definitely don't want to avoid such mentoring opportunities in the future (once I finally work my way into such a position).
Yes, I did find it rewarding, and latterly, more rewarding than many of my interactions with customers or managers. Especially when I learned things from the younger people.
- Chip away at your problem or task slowly. Celebrate tiny wins, I just got that tiny function to work, YaY
- A grand project takes time. One often underestimates the time needed to do a task. Break it into really tiny bite sized items.
- consider a different measure of success. Take time to understand deeply the root cause of all failures. Write about it in a daily journal.
- Creativity takes time and effort. Roadblocks are common, Enjoy the process.
A profound shift in thinking came to me after reading Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning. Specifically - meaning chooses you.
When I started out as a programmer, I was so excited about learning how to code, how different languages work, memory management, and other concepts like that. My meaning then was becoming a good programmer. A few years later that changed. I see meaning in utilizing my skills to build product that matter to people.
Maybe programming was your passion in its own right, and maybe that's no longer true. What helps me is stopping to look for meaning in the same place I am used to, and re-ask the question - what do I want to be doing? What is important to me? What will give me meaning? And then go and do it for a while and see what happens.
My best wishes and good luck to you, friend.
If it's really so bad that you're miserable, just take some time off. Either you'll find something else you enjoy doing more and leave programming for good, or you'll eventually be so bored (and broke) that programming might sound appealing again.
Were you hourly?
Most hourly positions with longer hours are nice. I have a buddy in construction that would make great money with all the extra hours. Any salary or daily pay stuff is not cool.
The job is not really stressful because at the end of the day, it's just software. Unless you're working on life-critical medical stuff or something, if the site goes down, nobody dies. Also I've never had an on-call job.
Name me an industry that pays more with less work and less stress.
Personally, I've been considering some sort of sales role in the future. Those people seem to be way over paid, better paid than me anyway and I'm doing okay. Note, this would be at a major firm rather than a startup.
* Speaking of the EU. And no, I don't want to hear about your Swiss salaries.
This sounds like depression
Comments unhelpful.. sure, it might be. But it's so general. And what do you do, treat it with therapy, diet, exercise and meds
While undoubtedly useful and necessary, we can find such diagnoses and treatment anywhere.
It elides the personal nature, and ignores specific causes.
The story was touching. I can't offer advice, because it's your life, but i can share what helped me.
When i got bored with boilerplate, i made my own frame works to make the boilerplate mine and bearable.
I made tools i love to use.
This made it better and less boring.
When i lose interest in things or feel I'm losing my spark...i consider what am i not saying that i really feel. How am i not living my true authentic life.
And then i start closing that gap. Saying what i want to say. How i really feel. Doing what i want to do.
It's not easy. Bridges sometimes are burned. Connections lost. Opportunities declined.
But i feel i get closer to the life i really want. And that let's me feel lighter and want to get up everyday and enjoy it. When I've got confidence my choices will lead me to a path that i will increasingly like, instead of feel like they're trapping me in one that i don't want.
I'm also careful with my diet. And double these efforts when I'm feeling off. Minimize processed foods, and increasing vegetables.
And meditating and relaxing.
I find this keeps me balanced, centered and me. And then what i want to do occurs natrally.
And i just follow some ideas i have. And don't try to start something that will be too hard for me or take me too long.
If i don't want to do something i don't do it.
Like i said, not advice, because it's your life, your choices and you're different to me, and i don't want the karma nor the responsibility of affecting your path.
But just sharing what helps me, because maybe they can inspire you and help let you feel things can be okay.
Speaking a bit more anecdotally, what worked for me when I facing a similar problem was shutting off the computer immediately after work and allowing myself to relax and prioritize other hobbies. I was watching more documentaries and vlogs, as well as going outside and hiking on the weekends as opposed to being bunkered down at my desk. This opened my eyes to what there really is in life, and I now view programming almost completely differently as a result, but in a sustainable, healthy way. I slowly built my passion back up, but not as compulsively as before. I don't program just to program anymore, which actually makes me more efficient.
I know your struggle and I wish you the best. Accept you need time off and it will get so much better.
Two weeks. Ten working days. You can't be serious. Three months minimum. OP needs to zoom out for perspective and that takes time.
Get to the other stuff later if you decide to pursue it further, but the fun is often translating what's in your brain to code even in it's simplest form. Very few people sit around dreaming up ideas and just can't wait...to write a bunch of tests and setup a CI.
During that time, stop trying to be productive because you feel like you ought to. Wait until you feel like you want to. Read, take a walk, do some cooking, hang out with friends or family.
Gauge for yourself whether media consumption, especially during that time, is helping you relax or whether it's substituting both the motivation and reward for actually doing the thing you don't have the energy to do yourself. That was a big problem for me: We train our brains to reward us for accomplishing a cool thing with a boost of dopamine. Later, it optimizes the process to reward you earlier for just planning to do the thing - sketching, architecting, dreaming, writing task lists. Eventually, it gives you the same "I'm really proud of that accomplishment" reward for just watching someone on Youtube do it (you don't even have to look at all the off-camera drudge work).
Also, given the time of year, depending on your latitude, check for seasonal affective disorder as a potential antagonist of depression. Talk to a counselor, get some bright lights, bundle up and get outside if the sun is out, take some vitamin D supplements.
I'm deep in the depths like OP and I can relate to this, like, a lot. Do you know of any literature or 'what to google for' regarding this sentiment/behavior?
For search terms maybe: instant gratification, short term rewards, dopamine.
Personally, I think we hit the peak ease of use with VB6, Delphi, and HyperCard
It's all been getting harder ever since.
Do you know for sure the hardware even works? Can you get them to talk to each other? What kind of interface do they have? Do they do ethernet at all?
I’ve had a long and, I suppose, successful career putting up with that shit. These days I’d rather do anything physical.
Basically I had grown really tired of solving every problem in the same way (create a new class, getters, setters... the same ol' object oriented stuff). And so I dove into Haskell which required new solutions to problems. And it made programming novel again for me. I was a beginner for the first time in over a decade; it was really challenging, and there were tons of new concepts that never popped up in the other mainstream languages.
The thing I loved was that it allowed and encouraged me to find the _best_ solution to a problem, as opposed to just 'something that works'.
I'd also like to reiterate your final paragraph, in case anyone misinterprets you and thinks that Haskell is just about novelty or doing things a "different" way. For me it's about doing things a way that actually makes any sense at all.
> The thing I loved was that it allowed and encouraged me to find the _best_ solution to a problem, as opposed to just 'something that works'.