> Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions, the court ruled: He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust [which Thompsons says owns the coins] to be examined, as required under his plea deal.
It's pretty clear this isn't a case of forgetting. Courts are not as stupid and gullible as tech people sometimes like to pretend.
This went to appeal and his appeal was rejected in precisely this point. He is not cooperating. It’s not just about him refusing to give information, he’s also refusing to perform actions required by the court, specifically exercising his power of attorney.
You are _missing the point_. He could be signing that just fine but if the judge goes "nuh uh" that's it.
Not to mention that isn't there a self discrimination protection clause? Ie you can't be compelled to disclose information that would discriminate you?
He's not signing it, and if he did, he would not be in contempt any longer. I don't know why he won't sign it if the only reason for not supplying the coins is that he can't find them or remember where they are.
This probably doesn't apply to self incrimination because it's not evidence of a crime, it is property whose ownership is in dispute.
Especially for $2m in coins? Not only is this a waste of time and money, but it’s damaging to our legal system. It’s like a petty parent trying to punish a toddler for not eating their veggies by sending them to their room for a year.
> 161 investors who paid Thompson $12.7 million to find the ship, never saw any proceeds and finally sued
> a different federal judge ordered Thompson to appear in court to disclose the coins' whereabouts. Instead, Thompson fled to Florida
> [Thompson]'s previously said, without providing details, that the coins were turned over to a trust in Belize.
> a federal appeals court last year rejected Thompson's argument that that law [18 month limit] applies to him.
> Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions ... He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust to be examined, as required under his plea deal.
> He would be out of prison by now if he had simply complied with his plea agreement
This guy is a big-time thief and a jerk. The courts are functioning just fine.
It's not punishment. This is civil contempt, not criminal, and can persist only so long as the court is confident of the person's capability to cooperate. As the article mentions, he refuses to even execute a limited power of attorney so authorities can follow up on his claim that he turned over the coins to a Belizean trust.
In 2009 a bitter divorcee, H. Beatty Chadwick, was released after 14 years (sic!) of confinement. He was eventually released when another judge decided continued confinement was futile. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/12contempt.html But note that the confinement had been reviewed by other courts several times, and every time they agreed that the guy was capable of cooperating. And all it takes is a single judge to decide to end the confinement, not the original judge.
Note that these articles never give the full story, and because of that people get the impression that courts are simply relying on mere opinion and conjecture as to whether the person is capable of complying with their order. Here's one of the appellate courts decisions in the Chadwick case, https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka, which has more details; and a subsequent SCOTUS opinion reciting the same facts, https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka-3
Again, the point of the confinement isn't just the amount of money at stake, and it's certainly not about retribution. It's that if everybody thought they could defy court orders this way (e.g. decide that $2.5 million is worth 18 months confinement) then courts would have diminished powers to vindicate otherpeople'srights. I understand people's fear of this kind of state-sanctioned power, but imagine how much more fearful people would be if courts were toothless and victims resorted to mafia-style coercion. The choice here isn't some anarchist utopia vs a dystopian state; it's a choice between the rule of law (which will never be perfect), and extrajudicial enforcers. This is especially true when we're talking about the kind of money that's at stake in these cases. Poor people resort to street justice all the time, for better or worse. But when millionaires start doing it, that's how you get a collapsed state. And ask anyone who lives in a collapsed state how safe they feel.
> Not only is this a waste of time and money, but it’s damaging to our legal system.
Agreed. The court is supposed to impartially apply the law. Long-term imprisonment for contempt when a party is defiant makes the court seem capricious or vindictive. That undermines the court's appearance of impartiality and erodes public trust in the courts.
A more humane solution in this case might be to release him and surveil him for as long as it takes to recover the gold. Once the gold is recovered, bill him for the cost of his surveillance.
Given his history of subterfuge to avoid being caught by the authorities, and the likelihood that he has access to millions of dollars in Belize, the risk that he would try to escape the country is rather high.
He was paid 12.7 million from investors....to find gold coins worth 2 - 4 million? How does that make sense? Do all investors get their money back plus proceeds from gold sales, minus costs and a stipend or something?
If you want to find something you should let that person go and then follow them closely. Clearly this person either really doesn't remember or doesn't want to tell. You can't really coerce it out of them at this point.
This does not seem like justice to me. Are people actually okay with this? I feel like this is something we'd read about the king doing in the medieval ages and grimace while being glad we live in a "civilized" society.
What if he's lying? The state might lose out on some old artifacts. There is also ample opportunity and time for authorities to investigate and track this man and the stolen coins as he will be watched like a hawk until they are recovered.
What if he's telling the truth? An innocent man is having his entire life taken away. This is a worse punishment than for anything short of first degree murder.
Some gold coins vs a human being's life. The choice seems easy to me and it's bewildering that it's not easy for others as well.
It's not just some gold coins, it's also the matter of $12.7 million invested in his research endeavor. If you raised $12.7 million to start a company like Theranos you'd also be looking at a steep prison sentence for securities fraud.
I would be tried for fraud like Elizabeth Holmes is where evidence is presented. She is not currently in prison and has been living in a luxury apartment rather than a COVID dungeon like this man has been in for 5 years without trial.
I'm not sure you read the entire article. It's not simply being in contempt of the court for failing to provide information on the asset location, but for refusing to uphold the plea bargain in which he provides limited power of attorney to investigate the trust held in Belize. You can't in good faith claim you can't remember and also refuse to assist in any capacity.
He would be free if he provided the power of attorney.
I don’t think you read the article. He’s not being held because the greedy state wants the gold for themselves and he won’t let them have it. He’s being held because he defrauded the investors that funded his treasure hunt and went on the run.
The trial can’t begin because those he defrauded cannot be made whole, when he’s clearly in possession of a critical piece of evidence but is refusing to cooperate.
Would you feel the same way of Bernie Madoff was better at hiding his stolen money and so he had to wait in jail longer before they started the trial while the investigators looked for it?
>Would you feel the same way of Bernie Madoff was better at hiding his stolen money and so he had to wait in jail longer before they started the trial while the investigators looked for it?
If they have evidence that he defrauded people then he should stand trial. If they need to find the money because it is the evidence then no he should definitely not be in jail while they go on fishing expeditions to actually see if he's truly guilty or not. You go to jail when you've been proven guilty in a court of law, not just because some people think you're a bad person. That's the road to a bad society to live in.
Granted you do have a point about him not giving them his right of attorney which looks shady but I'm clearly on the side of "It is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer"
Your statement "You go to jail when you've been proven guilty in a court of law" is incorrect. You can also plead guilty before a court trial, and go to jail as a result. I believe most guilty judgements end this way.
> On 28 November 2018 a jury awarded Investors $19.4 million in compensatory damages—$3.2 Million to the Dispatch Printing Company (which had put up $1 million of $22 million invested) and $16.2 million to the court-appointed receiver of the other investors
In this CBS article we read that Tommy Thompson plead guilty, so what do you mean by saying that he needs to stand trial even after he plead guilty?
Quoting the article:
> Thompson pleaded guilty for his failure to appear and was sentenced to two years in prison and a $250,000 fine. Thompson's criminal sentence has been delayed until the issue of the gold coins is resolved.
> That April 2015 plea deal required Thompson to answer questions in closed-door sessions about the whereabouts of the coins, which the government says are worth $2 million to $4 million. Importantly, he must also "assist" interested parties in finding the coins under that deal.
He broke the terms of the plea deal.
Is that what you want the trial to be about?
Also from the CBS article,
> Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions, the court ruled: He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust to be examined, as required under his plea deal.
How is that a 'fishing expedition'? Fraud was proven, the key person says the stolen coins are held by a Belizean trust, the key person agrees to provide access to the trust in exchange for a plea deal, then refuses to honor that deal.
How do you figure that Thompson is "innocent" here?
Ok, so the dude got a $12.7 investment, found the gold, then stiffed his investors. Even if he’s telling the truth that he cant remember where he stashed the gold, it’s not like he didn’t have time to bring it back.
C’mon, the tldr here is “crazy looking dude dude embezzles some money, ends up in jail.”
After reading, I thought, there has to be a lot more to this story. There is[0]:
Search and discovery:
The ship was located by the Columbus-America Discovery Group of Ohio, led by Tommy Gregory Thompson, using Bayesian search theory. A remotely operated vehicle (ROV) was sent down on 11 September 1988. Significant amounts of gold and artifacts were recovered and brought to the surface by another ROV built specifically for the recovery. The total value of the recovered gold was estimated at $100–150 million. A recovered gold ingot weighing 80 lb (36 kg) sold for a record $8 million and was recognized as the most valuable piece of currency in the world at that time.
Thirty-nine insurance companies filed suit, claiming that because they paid damages in the 19th century for the lost gold, they had the right to it. The team that found it argued that the gold had been abandoned. After a legal battle, 92% of the gold was awarded to the discovery team in 1996.
Thompson was sued in 2005 by several of the investors who had provided $12.5 million in financing, and in 2006 by several members of his crew, over a lack of returns for their respective investments. In 2009 he had an off-shore account in the Cook Islands of 4.16 million.
Thompson went into hiding in 2012. A receiver was appointed to take over Thompson's companies and, if possible, salvage more gold from the wreck, in order to recover money for Thompson's various creditors.
In March 2014, a contract was awarded to Odyssey Marine Exploration to conduct archeological recovery and conservation of the remaining shipwreck. The original expedition had only excavated "5 percent" of the ship.
Thompson was located in January 2015, along with assistant Alison Antekeier, by US Marshals agents, and was extradited to Ohio to provide an accounting of the expedition profits. In November 2018 Thompson agreed to surrender 500 gold coins - but then claimed he has no access to the missing coins. On 28 November 2018 a jury awarded Investors 19.4 million in compensatory damages-3.2 Million to the Dispatch Printing Company [which had put up 1 million of 22 million invested] and 16.2 million to the court appointed receiver of the other investors.
39 comments
[ 4.6 ms ] story [ 105 ms ] threadHis sentence was for 2 years, but he has not yet begun that sentence as he is being held in contempt until he provides the location
One of my biggest irrational fears is someone awful being convinced that I know something they need.
It's pretty clear this isn't a case of forgetting. Courts are not as stupid and gullible as tech people sometimes like to pretend.
Not to mention that isn't there a self discrimination protection clause? Ie you can't be compelled to disclose information that would discriminate you?
He's not signing it, and if he did, he would not be in contempt any longer. I don't know why he won't sign it if the only reason for not supplying the coins is that he can't find them or remember where they are.
This probably doesn't apply to self incrimination because it's not evidence of a crime, it is property whose ownership is in dispute.
> 161 investors who paid Thompson $12.7 million to find the ship, never saw any proceeds and finally sued
> a different federal judge ordered Thompson to appear in court to disclose the coins' whereabouts. Instead, Thompson fled to Florida
> [Thompson]'s previously said, without providing details, that the coins were turned over to a trust in Belize.
> a federal appeals court last year rejected Thompson's argument that that law [18 month limit] applies to him.
> Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions ... He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust to be examined, as required under his plea deal.
> He would be out of prison by now if he had simply complied with his plea agreement
This guy is a big-time thief and a jerk. The courts are functioning just fine.
I dunno, let’s ask that man?
In 2009 a bitter divorcee, H. Beatty Chadwick, was released after 14 years (sic!) of confinement. He was eventually released when another judge decided continued confinement was futile. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/12contempt.html But note that the confinement had been reviewed by other courts several times, and every time they agreed that the guy was capable of cooperating. And all it takes is a single judge to decide to end the confinement, not the original judge.
Note that these articles never give the full story, and because of that people get the impression that courts are simply relying on mere opinion and conjecture as to whether the person is capable of complying with their order. Here's one of the appellate courts decisions in the Chadwick case, https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka, which has more details; and a subsequent SCOTUS opinion reciting the same facts, https://casetext.com/case/chadwick-v-janecka-3
Again, the point of the confinement isn't just the amount of money at stake, and it's certainly not about retribution. It's that if everybody thought they could defy court orders this way (e.g. decide that $2.5 million is worth 18 months confinement) then courts would have diminished powers to vindicate other people's rights. I understand people's fear of this kind of state-sanctioned power, but imagine how much more fearful people would be if courts were toothless and victims resorted to mafia-style coercion. The choice here isn't some anarchist utopia vs a dystopian state; it's a choice between the rule of law (which will never be perfect), and extrajudicial enforcers. This is especially true when we're talking about the kind of money that's at stake in these cases. Poor people resort to street justice all the time, for better or worse. But when millionaires start doing it, that's how you get a collapsed state. And ask anyone who lives in a collapsed state how safe they feel.
Agreed. The court is supposed to impartially apply the law. Long-term imprisonment for contempt when a party is defiant makes the court seem capricious or vindictive. That undermines the court's appearance of impartiality and erodes public trust in the courts.
A more humane solution in this case might be to release him and surveil him for as long as it takes to recover the gold. Once the gold is recovered, bill him for the cost of his surveillance.
Also the dude actually does look like a pirate
The article says it's "thousands of pounds"; 1000 pounds of gold is worth $30M.
What if he's lying? The state might lose out on some old artifacts. There is also ample opportunity and time for authorities to investigate and track this man and the stolen coins as he will be watched like a hawk until they are recovered.
What if he's telling the truth? An innocent man is having his entire life taken away. This is a worse punishment than for anything short of first degree murder.
Some gold coins vs a human being's life. The choice seems easy to me and it's bewildering that it's not easy for others as well.
He would be free if he provided the power of attorney.
If you believe his punishment is just you should believe in debtors' prisons.
If you don't believe in debtors' prisons, you should object to this.
If they have evidence that he defrauded people then he should stand trial. If they need to find the money because it is the evidence then no he should definitely not be in jail while they go on fishing expeditions to actually see if he's truly guilty or not. You go to jail when you've been proven guilty in a court of law, not just because some people think you're a bad person. That's the road to a bad society to live in.
Granted you do have a point about him not giving them his right of attorney which looks shady but I'm clearly on the side of "It is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer"
100% Agree.
His Wikipedia entry at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Gregory_Thompson points out:
> On 28 November 2018 a jury awarded Investors $19.4 million in compensatory damages—$3.2 Million to the Dispatch Printing Company (which had put up $1 million of $22 million invested) and $16.2 million to the court-appointed receiver of the other investors
In this CBS article we read that Tommy Thompson plead guilty, so what do you mean by saying that he needs to stand trial even after he plead guilty?
Quoting the article:
> Thompson pleaded guilty for his failure to appear and was sentenced to two years in prison and a $250,000 fine. Thompson's criminal sentence has been delayed until the issue of the gold coins is resolved.
> That April 2015 plea deal required Thompson to answer questions in closed-door sessions about the whereabouts of the coins, which the government says are worth $2 million to $4 million. Importantly, he must also "assist" interested parties in finding the coins under that deal.
He broke the terms of the plea deal.
Is that what you want the trial to be about?
Also from the CBS article,
> Thompson hasn't just refused to answer questions, the court ruled: He's also violated the requirement that he "assist" the parties by refusing to execute a limited power of attorney to allow that Belizean trust to be examined, as required under his plea deal.
How is that a 'fishing expedition'? Fraud was proven, the key person says the stolen coins are held by a Belizean trust, the key person agrees to provide access to the trust in exchange for a plea deal, then refuses to honor that deal.
How do you figure that Thompson is "innocent" here?
C’mon, the tldr here is “crazy looking dude dude embezzles some money, ends up in jail.”
Search and discovery:
The ship was located by the Columbus-America Discovery Group of Ohio, led by Tommy Gregory Thompson, using Bayesian search theory. A remotely operated vehicle (ROV) was sent down on 11 September 1988. Significant amounts of gold and artifacts were recovered and brought to the surface by another ROV built specifically for the recovery. The total value of the recovered gold was estimated at $100–150 million. A recovered gold ingot weighing 80 lb (36 kg) sold for a record $8 million and was recognized as the most valuable piece of currency in the world at that time.
Thirty-nine insurance companies filed suit, claiming that because they paid damages in the 19th century for the lost gold, they had the right to it. The team that found it argued that the gold had been abandoned. After a legal battle, 92% of the gold was awarded to the discovery team in 1996.
Thompson was sued in 2005 by several of the investors who had provided $12.5 million in financing, and in 2006 by several members of his crew, over a lack of returns for their respective investments. In 2009 he had an off-shore account in the Cook Islands of 4.16 million. Thompson went into hiding in 2012. A receiver was appointed to take over Thompson's companies and, if possible, salvage more gold from the wreck, in order to recover money for Thompson's various creditors.
In March 2014, a contract was awarded to Odyssey Marine Exploration to conduct archeological recovery and conservation of the remaining shipwreck. The original expedition had only excavated "5 percent" of the ship.
Thompson was located in January 2015, along with assistant Alison Antekeier, by US Marshals agents, and was extradited to Ohio to provide an accounting of the expedition profits. In November 2018 Thompson agreed to surrender 500 gold coins - but then claimed he has no access to the missing coins. On 28 November 2018 a jury awarded Investors 19.4 million in compensatory damages-3.2 Million to the Dispatch Printing Company [which had put up 1 million of 22 million invested] and 16.2 million to the court appointed receiver of the other investors.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Central_America