Ask HN: Earning 100k EUR in Berlin?
I am a Ruby programmer with 10 years experience, based in Berlin, Germany, earning around 60k EUR. I also have some Python and JavaScript experience. I'd same I'm a mid-level engineer, not working on anything super trendy or complex. I'm in my 40s. I see lots of people on HN with salaries in the 100k region and above, but usually in the US. Is it possible for someone like me, staying in Berlin, to reach 100k EUR within a few years?
230 comments
[ 3.7 ms ] story [ 270 ms ] threadBut if you get into management, I think 100K is doable for a senior position. Other alternative is to be a Principal Engineer (or Head of Engineering).
All over less than 100 miles.
Staying in Canada is very hard to justify for a software dev.
I don't think this happens across all trades either. Last I looked, a mechanic would make similar money in either country.
I don't think that's it.
I was looking for work in Europe 20 years ago, and they had very few tech people there back then compared to the US, and were desperate to import talent from other countries. However, their salaries were still very low compared to the US.
From Wikipedia [0]: A demand schedule [...] represents the amount of a certain good that buyers are willing and able to purchase at various prices.
That demand is large at low salaries but low at higher salaries just means that demand isn't very high (or as high as it is in US).
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
Also, there are limits to what companies can afford to pay while still having a viable business model. They can be maximally desperate for talent, but still limited to paying only up to a certain amount.
That's part of the demand curve, as commonly understood in economics, even if we might colloquially say that "there is a large demand".
I believe it but have never had an insurance plan like that.
Later
Erin also points out that beyond the deductible cost, your ambulance has to be in-network, or it's not covered at all --- that bit our family too.
I'm a defender of our insurance system, weird as that sounds, but even I won't try to stick up for how we handle ambulances.
Insured: $50 flat rate, ground or air.
Uninsured:
$848 flat fee (ground service)
$4,394 per hour (helicopter)
http://www.bcehs.ca/about/billing/fees
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/2500-franken-fuer-62-kilomet...
Of course you can work a few years in California and move back to Europe. It takes some courage and a lot of people prefer to not move abroad.
Even still though, pre-tax EU salaries seem really low compared to pre-tax US salaries
I'd much rather be in the EU making EU wages than in the US making US wages. Europeans working in the US may not be in the same risk category as US Citizens (in the US) as they can always move back to EU if they face a health crisis.
This can't be the answer since we're talking about pre-tax salaries. On the other hand, higher taxes just mean that the difference in post-tax salaries between Europe and the US is even bigger than it seems initially.
This is usually not considered when people talk about pre-tax salaries. Ultimately though that’s just accounting, really that is part of the money you earn.
The same is true for US (I think - maybe someone from there can correct me if it's wrong).
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana
But if you have all the money of the world, you could get an extra bit in the US for some health issues. In most cases, it's not worth the cost.
Even then, some Arab sjeiks regularily travel to europe for advanced surgery. So I think that would contradict the first statement.
Eg. The severely sick sultan of Omar last year in Belgium with a 1700 person delegation.
6 covid vaccines have some dependency on Belgium. The Pfizer one was shipped from Belgium to the US.
[0] for big ticket stuff there's usually no private alternative, if you're dying from cancer you'll probably have to go to a government facility and hope for the best
It's not even about the taxes and I don't think it's about the supply and demand too. In Europe, including the UK, there are not many high growth VC funded companies, so most companies operate on thin margins and there's not much room to wiggle.
That said, even 200GBP/EUR increase on your salary usually goes long way.
Is that 80K gross salary? If it is, that would mean that the ratio of take_home_pay/total_cost_for_employer for US is smaller than in much of Europe (which is surprising to me).
Here is what numbers for that kind of salary would look like in Croatia:
Gross yearly salary: 80 000 USD
Total cost for employer: 93 200 USD
Take home pay: 48 088 USD
(Note - this puts you in the highest tax bracket, almost no one makes that much.)
The highest federal tax rate in the US is 37% and that’s only taxed on income over 518k.
As kasey_junk points out, an employee will have federal income tax, social security and medicare payments as well as health insurance premiums removed from their paychecks. Some employers also offer additional insurance policies such as short term disability, long term disability, and life insurance. Those are optional and would be additional deductions from the employee's paycheck.
Don't get me wrong, the US is great and there is probably a lot of room for nuance in what I am saying here and I am most likely wrong. So take this with a grain of salt:
Things that seem better in Europe (most developed countries in Europe at least): universal health care, better privacy protections, better political situation (seeing as the US is a flawed democracy [1]), and many other quality of life things [2].
You could argue that if you are rich, these things touch you way less in the US, which is true. But I also like not having to drive through poverty on my way to drop off my kids somewhere. I also enjoy knowing that where I live people don't end up in the streets due to getting some illness because of fictionally high health care costs.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
You can have all the money of the world, but if you're only enjoying it at >60 years it's too late.
True, you probably work harder and are more stressed in the US, but at least you have an option to retire early there on your savings. In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in.
I have 1 year to go for being debt free ( included buying a house) at 32 age.
I also thought it was US citizens that didn't save money?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...
Even then, Europe catched up with productivity and some even doubled it vs. the US ( quoting : https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/intervi... )
> Hours worked does not mean more productive.
600€/ month was enough to pay off my house loan. Leaves plenty of room to save money.
I literally save like 3-4/5ths, i do think that's more than average though.
Renting a place here would be 300-900€/month. I know someone who rents at 250€/month in the city with a decent house ( that's an edge case though)
Note: I'm paying off my loan early.
This is also true of developers in the US. The number of lucky ones who can retire significantly early is a tiny fraction of the market — but companies have very successfully used those dreams to get lots of free overtime from people who didn’t notice where most of the money ends up. FAANG developers do well but even there early retirement is not a reliable plan.
SF is an extreme but most of the high paying tech jobs cluster in areas which are closer to that cost of living - doing well, sure, but far from rich and definitely not able to count on being set for life since one illness, untimely layoff, etc. can easily derail a career.
That’s not to say that there aren’t ways to economize but there’s a long history of lazy editorializing about how kids these days are spending too much on avocado toast while studiously ignoring the data showing that the big problems are healthcare, housing, student loans, etc.
You can save a shitload of money in Iowa making $95k/yr.
https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes151251.htm#st
Again, note that I’m not saying you can’t make a good living elsewhere - having spent the first 15 years of my career doing that, it’d be odd - but that it’s not a simple ticket to being rich or even especially upper middle class. The pay scales definitely drag down, there are fewer jobs (and thus promotion opportunities), and they’re concentrated in the higher cost areas of low cost states.
Still solid, no question, but not a gold ticket. Note that many of the things the person I originally responded to are expenses which don’t scale down: if you live in a rural area your house is cheap but the two cars your family needs cost the same, computers and other consumer goods are only slightly less, etc. Those private schools are cheaper but not dramatically so, etc.
This is nearly impossible in Europe except by extreme luck. Enjoy your 40+ years of sub 40h/w work ahead of you with slightly longer vacations. While I can have a life long vacation after my 30s. Perhaps even spending it in Europe.
And hospital stays do not bankrupt you, or even make a dent.
Even with «great» insurance in the US, there are all these edge cases and loopholes, stuff they will not cover.
Where I live I never have to worry about these things, I do not even have to put aside money for rainy days (though I do, just because I make more than I spend).
And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years).
So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early.
I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension (whatever that may be for Scotland) and no business revenue?
We're discussing salary of software engineers, firstly because this is HN, and secondly because software engineer salaries in the US are an outlier. Also as I mentioned in my original comment, the figures I gave don't include our pensions at all (as an aside, 55 is the earliest you can currently take anything from private penions in the UK), so I think the comparison is valid enough.
If my wife also had a job as a salaried software engineer, instead of working on our business, our combined income would likely be around €105k, which is still more than enough to be able to live very well and save a lot of money at the same time, as long as you are financially savvy.
I'm pushing 40, so there's another 10 years to build up the cash/stocks/bonds/lending pot further, and another 15 to build up the pensions further (well, hopefully of course). Might even choose to retire before 50, since I'll have enough that I'll have the option of trading off yearly withdrawals vs working longer.
I think my point still stands: software engineers in Europe earn less than those in SV (and it's important to remember than SV is an outlier even on the US), but you can still live a very comfortable life, save a lot, and retire early (even if not quite as early as 50), all while working far fewer hours and living in a society that provides free healthcare, education (including higher education in Scotland) and unemployment safety nets, and where society looks out for everyone, not just "number 1".
Edit: forgot to also say that the company pension has not always been as great it is now, and to also mention that 2/3 of our pension pot is actually in person pensions (SIPPs).
Second, most developers don't run an independent ISV with their spouse ... If you did this in the US you'd have to further compare: $200k in .eu with healthcare with, say, $500k plus double that in business income, or $1.5m per year.
I think healthcare is going to be FAR better for you in the US. This won't be true for everyone, maybe won't even be true for most, but for you there can be little doubt.
Healthcare here in the UK is totally free. I know only too well (to my detriment) that it's far from perfect, but I still believe it's a wonderful thing for all of society. Plus nobody needs to worry about whether they can afford to call an ambulance, and nobody is going to be bankrupted if they have a hospital stay.
If you have an accident or chronic illness, the system won't leave you alone. But they cover zero cost of prevention. E.g. regular check-ups, blood tests, therapies, unless you have noticeable symptoms are not covered, which is often too late to catch cancer, diabetes or cardiological illness at an early stage. My wife and I spend between £2000-3000 a year on these in various countries (to make it affordable). This number is not terrible, but far from free.
Even the best parts of American (I owned a condo in Snowbird) are demonstrable worse than most of Northern Europe.
It is everything from the schools, food and health. America is still a place of personal reinvention but not of social capital. In Norway, every single person is a local currency millionaire. Every man,woman and child has wealth worth over USD 250,000 due to the Oil Fund.
Sweden has more billionaire per capita than America. The main difference is time. Time for life and time culture.
If not, it's not really their money.
These perks are nice when you are old or have a family.
Personally I envy the high salaries in the US (for devs) but I wouldn't move to the US because in Europe I got 30 days of vacation plus public holidays (which makes around 45 days off per year... paid) working full-time (35 hours/week)... and anyway, if one wants to make serious money as a developer, the only way is to bootstrap your own SaSS; working for others (in Europe or in US) only gets you so far.
Then give God's code a review.
Sucks that I suck.
Edit: Why are you down voting? I suck and will never make that sort of money.
So, the vast majority of developers out there (including HN) will never work for a top 5% company.
Our company is also not aiming to pay above average salaries, as explained company wide by people on a VP-level.
Context: 4 years of work experience.
In Amsterdam the top end was around €80-90k, then it's the management path (principle engineer, head of engineering, etc.)
We highly encourage relocating to Canada so the engineer doesn't have to work at night and we take care of immigration. But staying in Berlin is possible.
Edit: Also, to take your question a bit more literally - it's pretty easy to see how large enough salary difference would be worth it, since you can just retire after few years.
I should have phrased it differently. Of course there will be people that would do it. I am not one of them.
You are awake both in the day and in the night. If you work during the day then all your freetime has to be spent at night.
If you work at night, all your freetime gets to be spent in the glorious day, you know while people are out and about and shops/restaurants are open.
remember you only sleep 8 hours at night, and to be fair in a US Europe situation your work hours merely overlap at night and it's most likely you work from 3pm to 10pm.
so your time spend relaxing/working HAS NOT CHANGED. The quality of you relaxing time however has dramatically improved, and so has your working time.
I'd tell anyone GO FOR IT.
Silence, availability of computers (it was in the 90's),peuple gong home around 17,...
It means no life outside work of course, but I was there alone for three or five months and it was awesome.
technically the contractor has a right to regular employment but as long as they don't have a local subsidiary, local laws can't make a foreign company employ you, nor can they force you to cancel your contract, because that would go against your right to contract with anyone you like.
Maybe a 7pm call once a week, but beyond that, you just hand things off during the 3 hours a day that you overlap.
And you make 5-10X what the local shops pay. It’s insane.
If you are not satisfied with your compensation, it might not hurt to do a little window shopping.
You need to target wealthy compagnies also... Not startups.
I know several London Engineers in the £80k-£120k bracket. I know as many Engineers at other companies in the £40-£60k range. I don't know any in between.
Whats the difference? Not much in terms of 'years experience', but I know two things: throwing a poorly specified problem at any of the first group will get me a solution; at the second will probably not. Everyone in a company pretty much gets comped at the same category. There is no 50->100k Engineering path besides switching
I've not really had much luck finding freelance contracts with US companies, as the ones that have good rates usually (understandably) want people in the same timezone. All my contracts since 2013 have been in the Netherlands.
Living in a major city will offer you more opportunities though and also allows job hopping which is the best way to upgrade your salary anyway.
Of course you don't need that much money to have excellent quality of life; paying €100/month for full-time daycare, having 5ish weeks of paid leave, good transport, good libraries, good social services, and similar means that if I had more money I wouldn't know what to do with it!
Also, my M.Sc. degree, my kids daycare/after school and a relative's cancer treatment were/are all "free". Especially the last part, not having to worry about the wellbeing of loved ones is probably the strongest motivator for being a proponent of our system.
You have Yelp in Hamburg, Uber in Amsterdam, Datadog in Paris etc. which are paying this kind of money to experienced developers (Uber in particular pays well north of 100k to experienced backenders).
Where are the places you'll make $125k+ in the US? A) Silicon Valley and NYC, which are huge outliers in terms of COL; B) HFT; C) Very senior/staff/principal engineers or architects at large tech-centric firms, and you're going to need a lot of domain expertise
I think it's pretty hard to find something comparable to the above in the EU.
You are very misinformed. Regular old senior/principal developers at boring old companies can pull 125K+ salary all day long in places like NC, GA, etc. In SV it’s more like 300K+ (in total compensation).
The last pure engineering gig I did (specialised mobile work while trying to figure out what to do next) a few years ago was for a german multinational company and paid around 700/day. Remote work from home (Belgium, low CoL). That was a long running engagement for about a year.
They were happy to extend pretty much indefinitely but I ultimately started a new entrepreneurial project. At ~220 billable days that amounted to ~155k/year gross.
You are not getting anywhere close to the upper middle class life...
Beyond startups, there are 1. some smaller, but crazy profitable software companies (think dozens of M in annual revenue with less than 50 staff and a handful of owners) that will also pay this type of salary and 2. some larger companies (think Zalando).
Compared to US and esp Bay Area salaries (which ofc can be multiples of that) one needs to bear in mind massively cheaper costs of living (while often providing higher standards) - day care for kids for example is 100% free (as in tax funded) in Berlin.
That being said, the pandemic is certainly taking its toll as many companies have gone into a hiring freeze.
At the same time, the decline of SF and the remote work trend will likely mean an increase in intl salaries (due to Big Tech hiring remotely) and a decrease in SF salaries.
Again, you don’t have to live in the Bay Area to make 100K+. You can easily pull that number with OP’s experience in the southeast, and I’d bet good money the cost of living is a lot cheaper than most anywhere in Europe.
> day care for kids for example is 100% free (as in tax funded) in Berlin.
This kind of hits at why some people prefer higher salary versus “free” government programs. My kids won’t need daycare forever. I’d rather make a helluva lot more money and pay for daycare out of pocket for the 5 years they actually need it than pay for everyone else’s free daycare for the entirety of my working life.
Your kids will need school and university. That's pretty much "free" too in many EU countries.
And some people would prefer to do otherwise. It's just a different method with people placing value on other things like 6-week vacation, childcare, tuition, health insurance etc coming from the state. Your value is different - I understand it and that's fine. You do not have to agree to the method, just understand the alternate perspective. The grandparent was trying to suggest a different method to reach the similar goals.
There are tons of things like this, where you pay an enormous amount, but you gain an enormous amount more. The utility of money drops off pretty sharply above a certain amount. The utility of living in a well functioning society does not.
Strangely though, this kind of education arbitrage doesn't seem popular among americans, i wonder why... it makes perfect economic sense in light of current US college prices.
I think you could make 600EUR/day with your experience. Do that for 200 days a year and you hit 120K. That leaves 20K for expenses related to freelancing, like sick days - and you have buffer time between contracts.
Check out freelancer.com and check out which companies are used to hire contracters in your area. I know some in Denmark and Norway, but don't know how it works in
It is not as safe and "cozy" as being a full-time employee - but you can definitely make more.
So you also have to make at least 150k+ to make up for that. If you were to make significantly less than that, say 120k you’re probably worse off in the end.