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I always found this to be one of C's (and it's descendants) more ridiculous aspects.

You should not need an entire algorithm just to mentally parse a declaration. The rules should be sufficiently straight forward so that the advanced pattern matching in our brains should suffice.

It is excusable since C is old, but ridiculous nonetheless.

I recall reading that the reason for this was that it made the implementation of the compiler a lot easier
Pretty much everyone agrees that the "best" syntax for declarations is Go-style "x: int;" and not C-style "int x;", but to be fair you don't see declarations like that very often. Once you understand the (admittedly bad) syntax for "pointer to function returning type" as opposed to "function returning pointer to type", most declarations you're likely to find aren't hard to read.

I mantain some C code as part of my job and I don't recall declarations ever being a problem to mentally parse.

The only truly difficult declarations I've encountered dealing with real-world C code is mixing pointers, const, and arrays. Pointer to const str, easy:

    const char *str;
array of pointers to const strs, also fairly easy:

    const char *strs[4];
const array of pointers to const strs... umm...

    const char *const strs[4];
I think? Which const does what?

This is a dummy example, but real-world examples can be a bit less obvious, as you sometimes have to elide the array length:

    const char* const*       enabledExtensionNames;
From: https://www.khronos.org/registry/OpenXR/specs/1.0/man/html/o...

What is this, again?

It really is not excusable, since

a) As far as I'm aware no other languages at that time suffered from this ridiculous defect.

b) It doesn't really seem like the thing where you'd need 20/20 hindsight to figure out it's a bad idea.

The same applies to a lot of the lasting braindamage C has inflicted on the computing industry. It's just that people have been numbed to it thanks to constant exposure as every single popular language in the last twenty years has aped at least some of C's defects.

Other major problems either introduced or spread by C include:

- the execrable octal number syntax

- fallthrough-as-default case statements

- non-first class arrays

- strings that don't know their length

- the unsafe/ub-by-default mindset

- braindamaged linking

- abusing = for assignment, combined with making assignment an expression. For most of C's history you'd not even get a compiler warning for if (a = b) ...

- generally there is a very unhealthy mix of of being highly imperative and statement based and at the same time having a lot of ad hoc ways to "expressionify" things (comma operator, ternary, pre-and-post increment/decrement), which, combined with undefined order of evaluation, encourages all sorts of errors.

- error-prone optional braces syntax (dangling if etc.)

- remainder (rather than modulo) operator

- very nasty implicit number promotion rules

- messed up operator precedence

- "if (!pred(x) || a <= b && y)" for "if not pred(x) or a =< b and y"

- the c pre-processor

- a broken comment syntax (how do you comment out a region with comments inside?)

- spuriously non-grepable function definitions/declarations

> - braindamaged linking

I mean, it's simple, but brain-damaged?

> - "if (!pred(x) || a <= b && y)" for "if not pred(x) or a =< b and y"

I guess more parentheses would improve the clarity but your English translation suffers the same problem as the code

> the c pre-processor

> - a broken comment syntax (how do you comment out a region with comments inside?)

Use the pre-processor that you complained about

#if 0 ... #endif

> I mean, it's simple, but brain-damaged?

Linking is not a hard problem at all. For the last 40 years with a sane language you'd say "I depend on A, B and C" (in any order) and often that would happen implicitly as part of writing your code rather than having to screw around with some abortion of a build system as in C or C++ land. Things would just work, and quickly at that; the fact that there was a linking step would hardly ever even enter your conscious awareness with Turbo Pascal for example.

By contrast, in C and C++ you get:

- Often horrendously slow linkage, so slow in fact that it can dominate build times.

- Massive complexity. Contrary to what you claim, linking with C isn't simple at all (although it ought to be, especially considering how stupid it is!). Have you ever looked at a C linker manpage or obj format description? Also, because linker performance of GNU ld is so abysmal, people have written several replacements (gold, lld) and there are all sorts of exciting issues associated with getting different compilers talk to different linkers on different platforms/toolchains as well. There is an enormous cottage industry of (mostly terrible) tools around linking in C. And this complexity is before we even try anything like LTO or cross-platform builds.

- Lots of exciting challenges for even the most trivial tasks ("I'd like a statically linked artifact, please", "I'd like to be able to debug this, please").

- You need to specify link order, and the order matters and can introduce obvious as well as more subtle failures.

- Lots of random weirdness (e.g. djb errno patches).

- Little gems like this:

    > echo $'#include<stdio.h>\nvoid hello() {puts("hello world!");} int main() { hello();}' | gcc -xc - && ./a.out
    hello world!
vs

    > echo $'#include<stdio.h>\ninline void hello() {puts("hello world!");} int main() { hello();}' | gcc -xc -   && ./a.out
    /usr/bin/ld: /tmp/ccYdbjTB.o: in function `main': 
    :(.text+0xe): undefined reference to `hello'
    collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
How is any of this not braindamaged? Have you never used (a possibly ancient) language which did not suffer from any of these problems?

> your English translation suffers the same problem as the code

Sorry, I wasn't very clear here: what I meant to convey is that C syntax for logical operations is bizarre and unreadable. Why the bogus parens after the if? Why replace "not" with a weird symbol that does not in any way traditionally relate to logical negation and is moreover super easy to overlook?

> Use the pre-processor that you complained about

If someone sets my leg on fire, am I supposed to feel grateful when he pisses on it?

> how do you comment out a region with comments inside?

s/^/\/\//

Or just Ctrl+/ in some IDEs.

That’s also better than multiline comments because it provides indentation levels, and because it’s visible on every line that you’re inside a comment (and no need to place artificial “*”s at the start of in-comment lines). If I were to design a new programming language, I would only provide single-line comment syntax and relegate the multiline use case to editor support (i.e. for marking a line range and commenting it out/in).

I agree that // is the way to go but this only landed in C99, so almost 3 decades after the fact (~5 if you care about msvc support).
Good point. Even before C99, I would be using C++ as a “better C” for reasons like that.
A simple fix to the language would be to require everything to either be on the left or the right of the variable.

I wonder why that wasn't done?

Any time this comes up I like to point out that the spiral rule is wrong. It is instructive in a way because one learns more about C declaration syntax, but it is even more instructive to recognize why it is wrong.

The spiral rule works only if there is no pointer to pointer or array of array in the type. But take this for example:

        +----------------------------+
        | +-----------------------+  |
        | | +------------------+  |  |
        | | | +-------------+  |  |  |
        | | | | +--------+  |  |  |  |
        | | | | |  +--+  |  |  |  |  |
        | | | | |  ^  |  |  |  |  |  |
    int * * ¦ ¦ ¦ xxx[1][2][3] |  |  |
     ^  | | | | |     |  |  |  |  |  |
     |  | | | | +-----+  |  |  |  |  |
     |  | | | +----------+  |  |  |  |
     |  | | +---------------+  |  |  |
     |  | ---------------------+  |  |
     |  +-------------------------+  |
     +-------------------------------+
The type of xxx is a [1-element] array of [2-element] array of [3-element] array of pointer to pointer to ints. I drew a spiral that passes through each specifier in the correct order.

Notice that to make the spiral correct it has to skip the pointer specifiers in the first three loops. This is marked by ¦. This is not mentioned in the original spiral rules and one could be forgiven to parse the expression as xxx -> [1] -> pointer -> [2] -> etc. following a spiral that doesn't skip the pointers.

The Right-Left Rule is quoted less frequently on HN but it's a correct algorithm for deciphering C types: http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~ricko/rt_lt.rule.html

The spiral rule can be modified to process all array specifiers before all pointer specifiers, but then you'd have to specify that the order to do so is right and then left. At that point it's just the Right-Left Rule.

I use this rule: Go right when you can, go left when you must.
That’s really the best formulation, in addition, of course, to “start from the inside“.
The real rule turns out to be simple (although non-obvious): "Declaration matches usage."

So, for example, if you want a pointer to a function returning a pointer to an array of 3 integers, you'd want

  (*(*f)())[3 - 1]
to evaluate to an int, so the declaration would be

  int (*(*f)())[3];
Yay, yet another post on HN about mental clutches people use to read C declarations.

It helps a bit browsing through the source code of some of the first C compilers. The Unix Heritage Society[1] hosts source tar balls for very old Unixen, including the first C compilers.

One of the other posts in this thread ("Declaration matches usage.") is pretty close. Basically they originally [ab]used part of the expression parser plus some hacks on top to parse declarations, i.e. something like parsing <type> <expr> ';' and then assigning <type> to the root node and pushing it downwards through the tree to derive the type for the free variables at the leaves.

That's why

  int *a, b;
makes `a` a pointer, but not `b` (and why it's written that way). The int type is assigned to the root node (the `,` operator which has lowest precedence), then pushed to the nodes attached to it. Thus, `b` is derived to be of type `int` as well as ` * a`, which in the next step determines `a` to be of type `pointer-to-int`.

I recall reading a quote from Dennis Ritchie somewhere that the `( * name)` syntax for function pointers was required to "guide the parser" (read: hacks on top), but can't seem to find it right now.

Note that this was all before ANSI times. The current declaration rules have of course been derived and extended from there, but it helps a little understanding some of the oddities.

But even when reading through the C syntax in the first ANSI standard, you might realise that most of the expressiveness in C actually comes from, well it's expression syntax, and you can still shoehorn most of the declaration syntax in there as well, covering probably most of the language syntax using just the expression parser. (Which helps if you are in the 70ies, writing a compiler on a PDP-11 for your little toy OS, unaware that you are building the foundations for lots of things to come after)

[1] https://www.tuhs.org/