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FYI: TripleByte is emailing old referrals

189 points by wilde ↗ HN
I referred a friend to TripleByte in 2017 back when I was actually using the service. He received an email a couple of days ago claiming I referred him again. I've submitted an account deletion request so my friends stop getting spammed but figured I'd let you all know.

81 comments

[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 161 ms ] thread
[dead] cercatrova
TripleByte, what a scummy company, there have been other controversies about them in the past too that the founders had to step in and say, whoa, we're not as scummy as you think.

But I can't blame them, the pressure of growth always incentivizes people to do what they need to grow.

darwinwhy
What? You can absolutely blame them. Since the beginning they've explicitly marketed themselves as a higher quality, more streamlined alternative to traditional recruiting. If they've set up the incentives within their company such that the pressure to growth hack ruins their brand, that's clearly a founder/management-level problem.
cercatrova
Whatever they say explicitly is a mirage. It's brand marketing 101. You never trust what a company says or portrays itself as, because doing so is just another tool to get customer attention. Instead, only assume that they're a corporation whose sole incentive is increasing profits. Then, extrapolate their actions from that axiom.

Growth hacking does not damage their brand value and in fact might increase it, if they're successful. If more people use them, that's much more useful to their enduring brand value than whatever they'd have lost by spamming.

throwaway1836
I see where you’re coming from, but it bums me out to see companies good and bad be lumped into one amalgam. I think you,’re saying you can’t trust TripleByte because they’re a company, because as you say “you can never trust what a company says”. In this case I actually know Ammon both personally and professionally. I met him when he was already a successful founder and I was a nobody years ago. I’ve had many more interactions with him since then, and my prior when I see something like this that could be a (pretty common) bug or malice is to strongly suspect… a bug.

And I dunno, and maybe this isn’t a popular opinion (thus why using a throwaway account) but I actually think “companies” are actually pretty cool. A “company” made the laptop I’m typing this on (which is way better than the one I had a few years ago, and cheaper). A company got reusable rockets to work, and made the first electric car that many people actually like. I don’t think any of this would be possible without, you know, companies. So I’m definitely, like you, going to take what they say with a grain of salt but I’m not going to blanket say “you can never trust” just because they’re a company.

[dead] trevyn
I’ve started DNS blacklisting companies like this, would be interesting to have a shared blacklist of “technically legitimate, but very scummy” companies. :)

(Ycombinator itself is getting very close, since their “optimize for income” strategy naturally leads to this if not reined in, and apparently they are not doing enough wrist-slapping.)

cercatrova
What do you mean? Like Hacker News or YC itself? If the latter, where are you encountering YC doing scummy stuff like TripleByte? And wrist slapping for what?
[dead] trevyn
YC supports TripleByte, and TripleByte should be told by YC that they should stop doing this egregious stuff.

If YC does not ask TripleByte to stop, YC is implicitly endorsing the behavior.

If YC does make the request, and TripleByte agrees, then the scumminess stops. This clearly has not happened. (Or the request was not forceful enough.)

If YC does make the request, and TripleByte disagrees, then YC should publicly distance itself from TripleByte.

It’s like a milder version of what YC must do if a YC startup, say, starts making murder drones. YC doesn’t control what YC-affiliated startups do, but they have a lot of influence. In certain cases, YC is morally obligated to exert that influence. If they don’t, then they are complicit, and they hurt their own brand.

cercatrova
Why would YC tell TB to stop increasing growth and revenue? They're a VC, that's what they want, of course they'd be endorsing it. It doesn't hurt their brand, again because they are interested only in making money, and founders are similarly interested in a VC that pushes their company to make more money. That you as a bystander (not even a customer) don't like it is inconsequential to both YC and their portfolio companies. See my response to another comment in the thread for more context.
jakelazaroff
Acting rationally does not preclude one from being a shitty company/person/whatever. They’re doing something sketchy, and we’re allowed to be mad at them for it. The fact that it’s better for their bottom line is not exculpatory.
cercatrova
Sure, I never said they weren't shitty, but it's not useful to be mad at them.
trevyn
“Making money” as a VC has dependencies on a lot of things, including reputation and deal flow.
cercatrova
Depends, YC is doing pretty well protecting their investments
ammon
Well, it's painful for me to read that. Is there any chance I could get you on the phone to talk about what we're doing and how to make it not scummy? (That offer goes out to anyone reading this). Email me at ammon@triplebyte.com, and I'll find a time to talk. Our mission (helping people get jobs based on the job skills they have, not what their resume says) is something that I think is really important.
[dead] cercatrova
And there it is, just as I mentioned. Unfortunately, I can't personally attest to the company, but I'm sure others who've been spammed can do so.
bobthebuilders
Claims with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence.
cercatrova
Just look at the rest of the thread for claims, whether they have evidence is something you'll have to ask them. Simply because they are evidence less does not dismiss their claims, due to the number of such claims. In other words, if a lot of people are saying something, you should probably look into it.
Benjammer
I'm just gonna edit this, I'm sorry, I didn't need to be so harsh. It's too late to delete it. Oh well. I don't really disagree with what I said, but I lashed out unnecessarily.
cercatrova
Companies have to stay marketing stuff like this because it converts at least a portion of their users. If they were honest, they would lose most of their potential users. Look at my other comment about company marketing being a mirage.
_cs2017_
Could you clarify your main point? Are you saying Triplebyte promised to change the interview game, but in reality, interviewing with them is the same as going through a regular interview process?

It seems quite different though: you interview once with them, and then go directly to off-sites at multiple companies. Even if the interview is the same, the process is still quite different as you no longer have to send out numerous resumes and go through HR screening and first-round interviews.

Or maybe I misunderstood your point?

AlotOfReading
In my experience, it was basically the same as talking to a non-technical recruiter that doesn't know any of the qualifications they're looking for. When I tried them out, the "interview" was some guy persistently asking me questions about things wholly unrelated to my resume, skillset, and industry, even after they were told. The experience was pretty off-putting, especially with the later opt-out disaster.
frakkingcylons
This is borderline mean and not really constructive. He clearly cares enough to respond to people in this thread, being rude like this is uncalled for.
breck
I once spent some time to take your quiz to be an interviewer. I guess I didn’t pass, so I emailed to ask what my score was. You refused to give it to me, even after I asked a couple times. Would have been helpful to me for my learning. That was my first and last experience with triplebyte. Nothing extraordinary here.
zgotsch
I have not found them to be scummy, and have been on both sides (candidate vs my company sourcing through them).
friedman23
When I interviewed as a newgrad using triplebyte I got a candid response from them as to why they couldn't place me within a week. They told me that I did well in the interview but unfortunately I didn't have the required experience that the companies needed. I'm pretty appreciative that they were candid in their response.
ma2rten
Yeah, a friend referred me in July 2018. They have emailed me every two month since then. The subject line of their current email template says "[My friend] thinks you’ll pass Triplebyte’s coding quiz" and the email starts with "[My friend] is using Triplebyte and suggested we contact you".
[dead] throwaway12391
Let me give my own personal experience as one of the first few people through the doors.

1. I loved their interview process. It was enjoyable. Coding, coding, coding. I was offered a job with Triplebyte as well as other places.

2. The guy with the beard is a huge dick. I think his name was Amon?

Anyway, I ended up not being interested in Triplebyte after dealing with the beard. It doesn't surprise me that they are getting a reputation of being scummy af if he is still involved. Harj was great.

Get rid of Amon. I can almost guarantee he is behind the scummy practices.

the_arun
Be nice. It is Christmas eve :) BTW Ammon is the founder of TripleByte if you didn't know.
cercatrova
Of course they knew, that's why they're mentioning Ammon by name.
Yhippa
He is posting in this thread. I'm curious to see what his response to this is.
ammon
I'm looking into what's happening with this email. We definitely did not decide to re-email people invited a long time ago as a growth tactic. That would be shitty. I think the email is a reminder that's supposed to be sent a few times after someone is invited. I'll update when I know what's happening.
[dead] loosetypes
> We definitely did not not decide to re-email people invited a long time ago as a growth tactic.

The old double negative.

ma2rten
See my comment below. You have been emailing me every two month for more than two years.
throwaway34241
Similar thing here, every couple months for a year, original invitation over two years ago. I haven’t personally been all that bothered by it honestly - it seemed pretty likely that my friend is not sending a new invitation every couple months like clockwork, and presumably I can stop it by clicking once on unsubscribe. But probably it would be better to be explicit that it is not a new invitation.
edmundsauto
Same, I think I either set up a filter or routed to spam after being unable to stop the emails using their unsubscribe system.
throwaway81523
An interesting piece of advice that I saw in another HN thread about good company behaviours stuck with me over the years. When someone unsubscribes from your mailing list, delete their email address from your database. Don't retain it marked "inactive" or "unsubscribed" so that you can accidentally or on purpose start emailing them again later. Really delete it, so that you no longer have it and CAN'T make that error.
nikanj
But then we can't "accidentally" re-enable it later?!
jonny_eh
But then it can be accidentally re-added to the mailing list since there's no history of the opt-out.
throwaway81523
If the person chooses to opt back into the mailing list (all mailing lists should be double opt-in) then of course they can be re-added. There is nothing wrong with quitting a mailing list and re-joining sometime later, if that is what you want to do.
shalmanese
It seems pretty amazing to me that apparently some X000ish people have apparently been getting spammed by a company for multiple years and not a single one of them decided to contact the company and ask them to stop it. It's like a real world example of the bystander effect, writ large.
silentsea90
Playing devil's advocate in response to commenters here. I found the Triplebyte interview process a breath of fresh air. Rarely have I found an interview more aligned with day to day work, and not the same old algorithm puzzle bs peddled in most tech interviews.
kjgkjhfkjf
Perhaps it was a bug in their software. Bugs happen from time to time.
nbgl
I worked at Triplebyte until I was laid off in April due to COVID. I’ve disagreed with many company decisions (including opt-out public profiles) but I’ve never questioned Ammon’s integrity. I remember him as an honest person (at times perhaps to his detriment) and if he claims this this is unintentional, then I believe him.

Independently, from what I remember of those parts of the company codebase, my prior would be that this is a bug, not malice.

gingerlime
can you elaborate about the opt-out public profiles?

I never ever used Triplebyte, yet they seem to have some kind of a shadow profile of me? the only way I know is since I saw that they shared my details with Facebook[0]

Definitely feels like —- whatever their intentions are —- they do seem to use some scummy “growth hacking” techniques with little respect to privacy.

[0] https://blog.gingerlime.com/2020/whos-sharing-my-data-and-wh...

nbgl
Some months ago Triplebyte was planning to make every candidate’s profile public unless the candidate took action to opt out. After outcry on HN, they reversed the decision (made it opt-in) and Ammon emailed out an apology.

I really don’t know the details of Triplebyte’s growth strategy—I never worked with that team.

ammon
We don’t have shadow profiles or anything like that
gingerlime
That still doesn't explain how my details were shared by TripleByte with Facebook, when I never gave my email or any details to TripleByte. I don't think I even visited your site...
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runnerup
> Independently, from what I remember of those parts of the company codebase, my prior would be that this is a bug, not malice.

Indeed. I'm not associated with the company at all but this seems like a pretty typical bug for mailing lists. Anecdotes elsewhere in this thread about people who were referred and/or interviewed but who've not received any spam seem to back that up(?).

TripleByte did legitimately screw up by planning to make profiles public by default. I was upset with that but also very, very impressed when (after a day of reflection and sleeping on it) they reversed course with a heartfelt apology. To me that's the kind of earnestness that I want in companies that I do business with. Some people continue to criticize them for ever imagining the plan in the first place or not immediately reversing course the same day as the initial backlash - but to me, I think the vast majority of humans generally come around the next day after sleeping on it rather than in the moment.

TripleByte doesn't give me the "sociopathic company vibe" at all.

If anything, I've been happy that I can recommend companies like this to colleagues/friends/old classmates who didn't go to top CS schools. A lot of students from the lesser schools have quite a bit of difficulty getting an interview at FAANG companies even after doing the leetcode grind because their resume simply cannot stand out in the online application system -- and without a strong alumni network to help with referrals, they're on their own.

TripleByte (and similar services) do a pretty good job of at least getting you an interview if you've studied hard enough, regardless of your previous academic/professional background. That's a really powerful leg up for a lot of passionate and driven people who didn't go to the best schools.

icelancer
>> I'm not associated with the company at all but this seems like a pretty typical bug for mailing lists

Same, and I've done this on a 100k subscriber mailing list before on accident.

Daho0n
Having shadow profiles and emailing people every month for years(see other posts) and being trustworthy doesn't seem to go together.
[dead] draw_down
But but, he’s a nice guy!!
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choppaface
Have met Ammon and used the service. I agree it’s likely not malice but absolutely negligence. Ammon is in way over his head and has failed at recognizing that. Should have learned from the layoffs (COVID was an excuse but appears either Ammon personally had early knowledge of the impending lockdowns or the layoffs had been planned for weeks prior). Way way way too much leverage, and the lever rightfully bit back.
liquid153
Dont buy it they spammed the shit outta me even after I unsubscribed
ArchOversight
TripeByte emails have been going straight to /dev/null for years now. I kept getting stupid referral notices, even from friends that claim they never invited me.
noncoml
Just another data point.

I've interviewed with TripleByte twice. Once very early on, and one a year or two back.

I haven't received a single spam email from them all this time.

presidentender
I got my current job through TripleByte three and a half years ago. The candidate experience is (was?) top-notch.

The opt-out public profile thing was a bad idea, but I think they handled it as well as they could have after the fact.

My company did stop using TripleByte after a period of success, not because they're expensive, but because we found that the candidates we were seeing straight-up couldn't program. I can't see how that happened, given the rigor involved in the process, but it's what we experienced. That was a disappointment to me because I'm a huge fan of the concept and I had such a positive experience as a candidate.

cinquemb
> but because we found that the candidates we were seeing straight-up couldn't program

Not surprised, devs with experience and/or recs have no incentive to go through triplebyte and its ilk, with overtime leaving more of those who optimize for this kind thing.

edmundsauto
I don’t think this is true. There are many devs with no network who are fine programmers. I bet that’s actually the majority of developers - those just aren’t the people that anyone knows, by definition.
cinquemb
> There are many devs with no network who are fine programmers.

With no work experience? They don't have anyone at all from the last place they worked who could vouch for their ability to write code/design systems/fix bugs?

I find that very hard to believe. Though I'm saying this from my experience, I have no "network" of people to rely on (and I'm not also on social media) unless you consider contact info of people I worked with in the past as a network.

Sure, if you have no experience, one would be tempted to go through the whole hiring filtration as a service, but as soon as you get a job, you can just let future employers ask anyone who worked with you in the past (while ignoring those that wont accept that) and provide contact info rather than jumping through the next hiring filtration as a service again. At the very least, you wouldn't rely on the hiring filtration hiring filtration as a service funnel as much.

oliver910
> from the last place they worked at

If you're a fresh graduate or self-taught like myself, getting your foot in the door is tough.

And TripleByte's model is also to let you skip stages of the interview process IIRC, which is appealing no matter how much experience you have.

cinquemb
> If you're a fresh graduate

Covered by "Sure, if you have no experience, one would be tempted to go through the whole hiring filtration as a service"

> self-taught like myself

I'm self taught as well, and a dropout. I just assume that's going to be a PITA everytime I want to find something because I have to filter out all the companies/people I don't want to work for and mostly because of the time it takes.

> And TripleByte's model is also to let you skip stages of the interview process IIRC, which is appealing no matter how much experience you have.

With companies who are interested in using their service (after you have already scanned, uploaded oneself and jumped through all the services hoops and agreed to be at the whim of whatever they decide to do with said data now and forever more into the future) and who have not yet run into the problems (i.e. incentivizing people gaming the system) that the person I originally responded to has run into and that many corps have run into with similar services in the past.

The part I want to skip is the part where a corp ignores the content of what I sent and sends a TripleByte link mixed with some boiler plate…

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Aeolun
Why would they trust the people I tell them to ask about me any more than they would trust me myself?
cinquemb
Idk, ask all the corps out there that still are ok with people who have recs from people one has worked with before/and or put up their resources/time hiring before…

It's like some are surprised that there are many ways to skin a cat, and different corps have different preferences…

edmundsauto
I’ve been in the industry for over 15 years, currently work at a F500. Every job I’ve ever gotten has been through blindly applying, including this one. I have no network to speak of - my colleagues who have seen my technical work number less than 15. Most of those are in the military.

I have been quite successful despite this lack of permanent connection. I literally can’t think of anyone I could contact who would give me a leg up for a job.

cinquemb
I've been in the industry for over 8 years, and remotely overseas for 5 years, for startups and generally small orgs (sub 100 people). I also blindly apply for jobs, some ask for recs, most don't and just use my work experience (which im sure others do for people like yourself as well), but people I worked on jobs with in the past do contact me about working on other things as well randomly over email.

> I literally can’t think of anyone I could contact who would give me a leg up for a job.

You can, you still have

> colleagues who have seen my technical work number less than 15. Most of those are in the military.

that you just choose not to leverage such "connection" explicitly, but its probably implied to some degree on your resume.

throwaway81523
They must have really slipped their process then. I went through it some years ago. I don't claim to be the world's greatest programmer, but I've been around for a while and am good by most standards. The interview was fairly tough and the interviewer himself was technically strong and knowledgeable. I don't think anyone who didn't know what they were doing could have gotten through it. I passed, but friends of mine who weren't slouches didn't make it through the online screening.
slumpt_
They reached out to me about an interview that didn’t go hot for me at a startup out here. It was rather unprofessional, whether or not it was orchestrated by the startup.

If I want to talk to a recruiter I’ll talk to one, and I definitely didn’t consent to having my information shared with any third parties or “partners.”

They are sketchy.

account_chocula
I’ve known Ammon for about 7 years now, and through hundreds of interactions with him know him to be one of the most humble and earnest people I know. He really cares about helping engineers from non-traditional paths (like he is himself), and works long hours year after year even though he was already a successful founder before he started TripleByte. I believe him when he says that he did not decide to re-email people invited long ago as a growth tactic.
threwawaysoff
TB raised a huge red flag when they said "[I] received one of the highest scores on the quiz they ever saw."

I immediately thought: they tell this to everyone, this is some sort of deceptive tactic, and I cannot trust them.

I never followed-up because I wanted nothing else to do with people who were patronizing and lying to me.

lrossi
I found their quiz very easy except for a couple of questions, which I think I answered correctly anyways. I got the same message. You have probably hit the max score as well.
threwawaysoff
Yes, it was basic. And self-esteem head-pats don't do much for me except arouse a feeling of being patronized and raise suspicions.

All-in-all, this doesn't seem to do the clients justice if they don't throughly test to see what prospective candidates are made of by pushing their real-world problem-solving abilities, intuition, knowledge, and expertise.

My conclusion is to dissuade the use of TB as a candidate or as a hiring manager.

throwaway81523
If you mean the online quiz, that is a screening funnel for the video interview, which (as of some years ago, don't know about now) was fairly involved.

The online quiz itself wasn't difficult if you knew what you were doing, but it seemed well designed to discern clueful candidates from those who needed to brush up. I know people who took it and didn't pass.

vinniejames
This service is sketchy to the max. The public profile issue was the last straw.

The low quality candidates passing through is due to poor quality controls and the ease of gaming the system by cheating

throwaway81523
When I did their process a few years ago, there was a fairly challenging online quiz that could obviously be gamed by (say) having a more knowledgeable friend looking over your shoulder and giving you answers. If your score was above X, you were invited for a live (in person or video) interview. That one would have been harder to game. If you didn't score high in enough areas, they told you what areas to brush up on and I think there was a 1 month wait before you could try again. So you had to be pretty strong to get through this phase (I got through).

It sounds to me like they must have since lowered the bar for getting through the process, so weaker candidates now get through; and at the same time, it sounds from other comments that they must have stopped having the interviews done by real engineers (which was expensive). So it sounds like they have become just another recruiting agency. That is disappointing. My initial experience with them was great. I do feel slimed by something that happened later but will see if I can talk to Ammon about that.

I agree that the public profile thing was outrageous. I put it off to the intoxicating effect that money has on business people, that makes them do idiotic things if they think that might get them more of it. We programmers get similarly intoxicated by (say) access to fast enough computers, so I didn't stay angry after the error was fixed.

ammon
Ok, we’ve looked into this. The problem was a bug in our reminder email. We only intended to send the reminder 3 times, but it was going out every 6 weeks forever. We’ve turned off all reminder emails for now (and will audit them after the holidays). Had I realized this was happening sooner, we would have fixed it sooner. I’m absolutely NOT trying to spam / growth hack our way to anything. I don’t think that would even work. Our goal is to help people who are strong programmers but don’t have credentialed resumes get jobs. We only succeed by helping engineers. It’s clear from some of the replies here that I’ve lost the trust of a part of this community. I feel pretty bad about this. I’m going to do an Ask HN post next year and get everyone input on what Triplebyte should do to help engineers and not be spammy. If anyone has any thoughts now and would like to talk, please email me at ammon@triplebyte.com. I promise to listen to anyone (I’d especially like to talk to people critical of us). Have a wonderful Christmas, everyone!