Many of these war criminals, including Matsui himself, are regularly honored by the Japanese government at their place of interment in the Yasukuni Shrine.
Although it obviously isn't a properly conducted experiment, it's enlightening to see how much the Allied response to Germany and Japan has affected how these countries relate to their own past. While the Germans were trained to be contrite for generations, members of Unit 731 were spared punishment and the Emperor was not deposed to name perhaps the most egregious examples. I can understand the Americans wanting to have a bulwark against the Soviet Union in Japan but it does leave a bad taste in your mouth.
I mean it's a complex piece of history.
America bombed to bits Japan and nuked it twice. Should USA not be remorseful at all?
Or how about the European colonisation of Asia? I don't recall Brits feeling bad about the opium wars.
Or how about China invading Tibet or its horrific "cultural revolutions"?
But let's stick to the topic and avoid whataboutism.
Edit:
I saw you have another almost identical comment (now flagged).
Are you feeling that I am deliberately leave out the rethoric that China or CCP were equally brutal, so that you have to raise points about China been the one committed crime.
I find those thoughts insulting, inhumane, and plainly wrong.
I am a Chinese. My ancestors have suffered those brutality themselves.
My grand father still had the memory of the fear he was subjected to during Japanese invasion (not part of the NanJing massacre). My entire life has been haunted by the gruesome deeds that I personally has association with through my people's collective memory.
It was not just the shear number of people killed. It was also the plain animal like brutality performed, whcih terrified my heart. So much so that I avoid sharing those with anyone, online or in person. Just repeating those in my mind causes fear and repulsion to my guts. (Google it yourself at your own discretion)
So the point is, is that there were many horrific incidents that occurred in Asia, and China sadly. I think it's more useful (and reasonable) to look at all the brutality.
The 1850s civil war in China btw was arguably the worst of the lot. An insane level of brutality there but it seemingly goes unmentioned.
The west did horrific things in Asia. I'm really curious why the Chinese don't have the same level of resentment over the British given how barbaric they treated them in the 1800s.
Don't forget it was USA that forced open Japan. They didn't ask to be open to the world.
> I'm really curious why the Chinese don't have the same level of resentment over the British given how barbaric they treated them in the 1800s.
Not sure how did you get the impression that Chinese don't have the same level of sentiment towards Britain?
I suggest you google what happened in Nanjing and the 731 unit. And see for yourself why they evoked stronger mental reactions.
But still, like I expressed elsewhere, to question people's feeling based on hypothetical political motive is such a CCP way of thinking. I have to say that a lot of people have lost the battle against CCP.
So based on a limited pool of my Chinese friends and work there I have never experienced any resentment towards the British.
Nor do the Chinese show anger towards Koreans who made up a significant proportion of the Japan imperial force.
I'm aware of the history of China. It's telling that it was the USA after the war that played up Japan's aggression in China. Now the invasion was bad, but was it unique in its brutality? The 1850s civil war in China was way worse.
Why the lack of focus on Europeans not apologizing for what they did in Asia/China?
Why the bombardment of films about the evil Japanese invading but not the Europeans?
I've seen anti-japanese posters in China never seen anything on Europeans.
I am not sure what's your motivation of continue this motivation analysis on my feeling towards brutality.
I am always frustrated by the general skeptics applied on any comments where China and/or Chinese people were painted as the victim.
Doesn't it appear universal that feelings of people because of recent historical events should be respected?
To answer your question again, WWII is the most recent historical events... Of course people are going to have fresher memory of them. If people apply same emotional response to all historical events, USA should have a civil between Indian, African Americans, White, and Mexican people all the time.
Why such self-evident rationale automatically excluded from anything related to China/Chinese people? Was this racism? I cannot find any other execute...
>I think it's more useful (and reasonable) to look at all the brutality
In what specific way is it more useful? Other than just the overall raw fact of pointing out that collective memory is often arbitrary and in flux (which I think most people intuitively accept). You certainly will not get to see people get upset or relaxed in exact proportion to the magnitude of the topics considered.
I'm asking because I've heard those arguments in various contexts and there's rarely added information other than an attempt to de-legitimize grievances through historical comparisons.
I'm not saying that this is the case here or attributing intentions to your post, but I feel it is worth mentioning the context under which these arguments might be perceived.
I think it's problematic to isolate historical events without considering the surrounding history and can inflame tensions between communities/nations.
In terms of The Japanese invasion of China, this event has often been magnified by China in comparison to other brutal events that occurred after and before it. Taken in isolation it is indeed horrendous. But zeroing in on this event downplays the brutality of the other events within China, both by other Europeans and by various Chinese over the past 200 years. Its a distortion of history.
To give an example for a number of decades in china there have been 1000s of films about Japan's invasion of China. How many have there been on Britians cruelty to the chinese?
Encouraging a demonising of a nation is not something I can support.
Hey, this comment is composed of arbitrary claims without any references. Can we have a more constructive discussion where information and data can be shared?
Well that's a fair point. Can I also say that I thought your first comment was beautifully written (I'm being honest here).
Anyway, I don't have time right now right now to provide evidence. So that does weaken my case. I looked into this stuff years ago.
I also am aware that my position might be hurtful to Chinese. That is not my intention either (but it may have happened - and I'm sorry if that did occur). I could try and provide some links Tomo.
Just to repeat I know the Japan invasion of china was horrific. Their treatment of British Soldiers was awful too.
But how this event has been portrayed by the Chinese, relative to other awful historical events and the impact that has had on them is something I feel needs consideration. Anyway I'm just repeating myself.
CCP indeed has a plan for most significant historical events where the party has proper resources to work on. Those were mostly managed by the propaganda department. This is also reflecting my comments elsewhere about China is far more exotic than just being oppressive and authoritarian.
But for all those manipulation, Japanese denial has been extremely insulting and unnecessary, which I have been saying all the time.
It may be helpful to understand that the manner in which Germany and Japan capitulated at the end of the war differed quite a bit. While the USA had completely bombed all strategic targets by the end, the decision (rightly or wrongly) to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki was done to force Japan’s surrender. The USA had suffered significant casualties invading other islands on the way to Japan, and did not want to suffer more. Of course there were other options than murdering civilians to win that, and that makes the use of atomic weapons morally unjustifiable.
That aside, the USA never invaded Japan with ground forces. The occupation force was “allowed” entry after capitulation, where a number of allowances were made to Japan to make this more acceptable. Germany on the other hand did not capitulate until after Berlin had fallen to a ground assault, and really had no bargaining whatsoever for the shape of the occupation.
On top of that, it should not be overlooked that the USA gained an “ally” in Japan at that point, and racism allowed for the horrors to be overlooked in a way that Germany was not. Also, there’s probably some part of this that was effected by the fact that the USA and other European nations did not recognize the Chinese government after the war and therefor demands for repercussions against Japan on behalf of the Chinese were not necessarily something that was “heard”.
NanJing massacre is one of the events in WWII where the animal cruelty manifests itself towards other humans.
As a Chinese born and raised in mainland myself, I am amazed at the ability of Chinese people to tolerate and coexist with this unspeakable brutality on our ancestors.
The whole event has a terrifying chilling effect on me: I never had enough courage to expose myself to those grumsome murderers done by the fellow humans. Not only they are directly harming my ancestors, the way they were performed has always been beyond my comprehension.
In some sense, I am afraid that I might suffer the demise of Iris Chang [1], where her exposure to the bloody facts caused severe mental stress. Which combined with the denial from Japanese government and right wing extremists, caused depression, and eventually her suicide.
I am also constantly puzzled by the denial from Japanese government regarding the war crime. For example, Japanese government is mad at the sculpture of comfort women [2]. Some times they succeeded at silence the expression [3].
Everyone involved should actually be open about what happened and collectively overcome the hurdles of historical events. Not denying, and automatically will trigger violent counter attack, which sustained a vicious cycle of hatred. See what happened in the African Americans and slavery and German's deeds for Holocaust. Where true concession indeed healed the wound largely.
I cannot help but guess that Japan's rejection of the war crime has truly been the culprit of the nation's disintegration in the east Asia bloc. Sadly caused a lot unnecessary frictions in the local geopolitical scene.
Actually, Japan denial is more puzzling, in that the facts are not to be held back by the Japanese government. For domestic violence, the ruling government still have full control of the facts and how to interpret them. In Japan's case, the evidence is all controlled by foreign nations because they were performed there.
How do you feel about USA soldiers nuking Japan cities full of innocent women and children?
Or China's cultural revolution where way more Chinese died?
Or
> As a Chinese born and raised in mainland myself, I am amazed at the ability of Chinese people to tolerate and coexist with this unspeakable brutality on our ancestors. […] I am also constantly puzzled by the denial from Japanese government regarding the war crime.
Let this be a reminder to all Chinese that came across this thread that your ancestors suffering does not count. The only way is to be strong so the past do not repeat itself.
19 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 48.4 ms ] threadAlthough it obviously isn't a properly conducted experiment, it's enlightening to see how much the Allied response to Germany and Japan has affected how these countries relate to their own past. While the Germans were trained to be contrite for generations, members of Unit 731 were spared punishment and the Emperor was not deposed to name perhaps the most egregious examples. I can understand the Americans wanting to have a bulwark against the Soviet Union in Japan but it does leave a bad taste in your mouth.
But let's stick to the topic and avoid whataboutism.
Edit:
I saw you have another almost identical comment (now flagged).
Are you feeling that I am deliberately leave out the rethoric that China or CCP were equally brutal, so that you have to raise points about China been the one committed crime.
I find those thoughts insulting, inhumane, and plainly wrong.
I am a Chinese. My ancestors have suffered those brutality themselves.
My grand father still had the memory of the fear he was subjected to during Japanese invasion (not part of the NanJing massacre). My entire life has been haunted by the gruesome deeds that I personally has association with through my people's collective memory.
It was not just the shear number of people killed. It was also the plain animal like brutality performed, whcih terrified my heart. So much so that I avoid sharing those with anyone, online or in person. Just repeating those in my mind causes fear and repulsion to my guts. (Google it yourself at your own discretion)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25552862
The west did horrific things in Asia. I'm really curious why the Chinese don't have the same level of resentment over the British given how barbaric they treated them in the 1800s.
Don't forget it was USA that forced open Japan. They didn't ask to be open to the world.
Not sure how did you get the impression that Chinese don't have the same level of sentiment towards Britain?
I suggest you google what happened in Nanjing and the 731 unit. And see for yourself why they evoked stronger mental reactions.
But still, like I expressed elsewhere, to question people's feeling based on hypothetical political motive is such a CCP way of thinking. I have to say that a lot of people have lost the battle against CCP.
Why the lack of focus on Europeans not apologizing for what they did in Asia/China? Why the bombardment of films about the evil Japanese invading but not the Europeans?
I've seen anti-japanese posters in China never seen anything on Europeans.
I am always frustrated by the general skeptics applied on any comments where China and/or Chinese people were painted as the victim.
Doesn't it appear universal that feelings of people because of recent historical events should be respected?
To answer your question again, WWII is the most recent historical events... Of course people are going to have fresher memory of them. If people apply same emotional response to all historical events, USA should have a civil between Indian, African Americans, White, and Mexican people all the time.
Why such self-evident rationale automatically excluded from anything related to China/Chinese people? Was this racism? I cannot find any other execute...
In what specific way is it more useful? Other than just the overall raw fact of pointing out that collective memory is often arbitrary and in flux (which I think most people intuitively accept). You certainly will not get to see people get upset or relaxed in exact proportion to the magnitude of the topics considered.
I'm asking because I've heard those arguments in various contexts and there's rarely added information other than an attempt to de-legitimize grievances through historical comparisons.
I'm not saying that this is the case here or attributing intentions to your post, but I feel it is worth mentioning the context under which these arguments might be perceived.
Anyway, I don't have time right now right now to provide evidence. So that does weaken my case. I looked into this stuff years ago. I also am aware that my position might be hurtful to Chinese. That is not my intention either (but it may have happened - and I'm sorry if that did occur). I could try and provide some links Tomo.
Just to repeat I know the Japan invasion of china was horrific. Their treatment of British Soldiers was awful too.
But how this event has been portrayed by the Chinese, relative to other awful historical events and the impact that has had on them is something I feel needs consideration. Anyway I'm just repeating myself.
CCP indeed has a plan for most significant historical events where the party has proper resources to work on. Those were mostly managed by the propaganda department. This is also reflecting my comments elsewhere about China is far more exotic than just being oppressive and authoritarian.
But for all those manipulation, Japanese denial has been extremely insulting and unnecessary, which I have been saying all the time.
That aside, the USA never invaded Japan with ground forces. The occupation force was “allowed” entry after capitulation, where a number of allowances were made to Japan to make this more acceptable. Germany on the other hand did not capitulate until after Berlin had fallen to a ground assault, and really had no bargaining whatsoever for the shape of the occupation.
On top of that, it should not be overlooked that the USA gained an “ally” in Japan at that point, and racism allowed for the horrors to be overlooked in a way that Germany was not. Also, there’s probably some part of this that was effected by the fact that the USA and other European nations did not recognize the Chinese government after the war and therefor demands for repercussions against Japan on behalf of the Chinese were not necessarily something that was “heard”.
As a Chinese born and raised in mainland myself, I am amazed at the ability of Chinese people to tolerate and coexist with this unspeakable brutality on our ancestors.
The whole event has a terrifying chilling effect on me: I never had enough courage to expose myself to those grumsome murderers done by the fellow humans. Not only they are directly harming my ancestors, the way they were performed has always been beyond my comprehension.
In some sense, I am afraid that I might suffer the demise of Iris Chang [1], where her exposure to the bloody facts caused severe mental stress. Which combined with the denial from Japanese government and right wing extremists, caused depression, and eventually her suicide.
I am also constantly puzzled by the denial from Japanese government regarding the war crime. For example, Japanese government is mad at the sculpture of comfort women [2]. Some times they succeeded at silence the expression [3].
Everyone involved should actually be open about what happened and collectively overcome the hurdles of historical events. Not denying, and automatically will trigger violent counter attack, which sustained a vicious cycle of hatred. See what happened in the African Americans and slavery and German's deeds for Holocaust. Where true concession indeed healed the wound largely.
I cannot help but guess that Japan's rejection of the war crime has truly been the culprit of the nation's disintegration in the east Asia bloc. Sadly caused a lot unnecessary frictions in the local geopolitical scene.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iris_Chang
[2] https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.artnet.com/art-world/comfo...
[3] https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/...
Edit: to reply the comments below:
Actually, Japan denial is more puzzling, in that the facts are not to be held back by the Japanese government. For domestic violence, the ruling government still have full control of the facts and how to interpret them. In Japan's case, the evidence is all controlled by foreign nations because they were performed there.
Yeah, denial is a strange thing sometimes:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps