HN Explorer

Ask YC: "Rock Star" Job Titles

72 points by iamdave ↗ HN
So someone mentioned to me the option of working full-time for a period of time on a very exciting project. The cost benefits would simply yield supplementary income, nothing super spectacular, so not getting the gig doesn't immediately mean I'll be shit out of luck with money.

But then I saw the job post and it said "ROCK STAR Developer" and immediately I didn't want to work for this company. I was asked why by a third party, and I explained how the whole cliche of calling people ninjas and rockstars is pointlessly chic, and trivializes what you want the person to do because their name "looks" hip and trendy.

And dear god I know one thing if I know anything: trendy fails to deliver.

Anyone else here have an opinion on the whole "rock star" job industry mentality?

125 comments

[ 5.4 ms ] story [ 173 ms ] thread
zacharye
A less-known employer looking for talent on a job board has very few ways to distinguish itself from the pack. Looking for a "rock star" may be one of the ways it tries to do so. Tacky? Most certainly. Effective? Probably not. I don't know if it should be discounted because of it though. The only way to truly determine if it would be a good fit is to talk to the company.
bjclark
Actually, a really good way to grab attention is by not doing what everyone else is doing. So, NOT looking for a "rock star" would be a good start.
kareemm
this is 100% true. when we hired a developer at edufire.com, the ad ripped the phrase "web 2.0" and said if you were interested in building a real business that would change the world, you should get in touch. we got about 15 resumes, half were high quality, and we ended up being lucky enough to have an amazing developer agree to come on board.

it's pretty simple: if you want to find the top 1% of developers out there, don't hire like 99% of companies.

mcormier
I agree that it is pointlessly chic, however have you ever thought about it from the point of the people hiring? It is difficult to find good people to hire, and this company isn't making any bones about what they want. Also remember to separate human resources from development. What you are getting, unless the company is tiny, is HR spiel.

I would use something like that as a flag of caution but I would want to see the job description/website/product information before making a final decision.

The Omni Group calls their support staff, "Support Ninjas", and I thought it was humorous the first time I saw it a couple of years ago.

http://www.omnigroup.com/company/people/

If it's a churn and burn shop that pays nothing then yes, stay away. If it's an over zealous HR person, than give them the benefit of the doubt. :)

h3h
I think the "rock star" mantra used to work well when everyone else had dental job postings and a standard application form that had to be faxed in. Now, though, marketing and recruiting people are clued in on the "ninja" and "rock star" terminology, so abuse it to no end.

I too am turned off by these titles for this reason. When I'm recruiting I just go for what seems honest and appealing -- nothing overly flashy or trendy, but not boring either. I think the best positions combined with the best companies will always stand out in some way, but that way will probably continue to change.

bjclark
I totally agree 100%. If I see rockstar or ninja, I skip right past your ad.

You want to get my attention? Tell me you're looking for a professional, and you're going to treat me like one. I want to know that I get 8 hours a week to work on opensource. I want to know that you're looking for craftsman, not ego maniacs. Mostly, I want to know that I'm not working with a group of people that saw the word rockstar and thought to themselves "Oh, rockstars huh? That's totally describing me."

Also, please please please don't tell me you have funding from a "Top Tier" VC. It's a sure fire way to convince me that you care more about your ego than running a successful company. Who the fuck cares who funded you? I don't care who, I only care that you're going to be around for a long time. And, you're going to consider anyone that gives you a ton of money to be "Top Tier", so it's completely meaningless anyway.

ivankirigin 

  "I want to know that I get 8 hours a week to work on opensource"
You wouldn't work at a closed source company?

edit: i read 8-hours-a-day -- sorry. that is somewhat reasonable.

The unreasonable side comes from the inability to create hours. You can only add work. Side projects are always additive, unless you can stop work on a core project to do the side project. That's often bad for business, unless you're Guido.

The solution is to just work more to make up the hours. Most people don't want to hear that though, because they like the idea of getting a gift of choice from a company.

cstejerean
Any company that leverages open source software should make an effort to donate back to the community, even if the core of their software is closed source. Use Linux? Python? Emacs? Firefox?

Allowing your employees to donate some time towards open source projects is probably a good way to attract talent. Advertising for "rockstar ninja" positions is not.

wheels
While I agree that it's a much better way to attract talent, I'm going to say (as an OSS contributor myself) that unless it's already significantly into its funding cycle, a startup where you've got time to spend on random OSS stuff that doesn't directly benefit the company is probably focusing on the wrong things.
cstejerean
A startup where the co-founders have time to work on random OSS stuff is probably working on the wrong things. A startup where employees can spend 20% of their time hacking on OSS or side projects is likely doing just fine. I would be more worried about a startup that expects or demands that employees work 40+ hours. It either means that it's being run by suit monkeys that don't understand how programmers work or has poor project management that requires a constant crunch mode.
SwellJoe
Umm...Do you only work 8 hours a week?

Seems like he's saying he's passionate about Open Source and wants that to be part of his job, not that he won't work on anything else. There are lots of people in the world who've learned that working on proprietary code means you say "goodbye" to it when you leave the company, whether you like it or not, and want to make sure they don't have to do that in the future. They've also learned that wholly proprietary companies are sometimes bitches about contributing to Open Source software even outside of business hours and on your own time and equipment!

If you're working for a company on Open Source software, you get to keep tabs on that code for the rest of your days, sending patches, if you like, etc. It's a major selling point for some of the best developers I've ever known--in fact, the very best developers I've known generally work on only Open Source software (so I'm excluding myself from this categorization of "very best", since I work on some proprietary software in addition to my predominantly Open Source work).

nostrademons
Side projects don't have to be additive - they could be something that's on the critical path for your main product and yet not intricately tied to your proprietary code. The decision is not "Can employees spend 20% of their time working on open-source?", but "Can 20% of the code that we already have to write be open-sourced profitably." I suspect that for many companies, the brand-building benefits of open-source and its effect on attracting top developers more than makes up for the chance that someone will take your open-source code and build a competitor. (Particularly since the best candidates for open-sourcing are low-level commodity libraries that somebody will write anyway.)
ivankirigin
You're right. My comment is directed only at true side projects, not real work that could be opens sourced.
cstejerean
Even for true side projects, the solution is to make sure your project schedule doesn't depend on everyone working a strict 40 hours. Having time set aside to do some OSS hacking every week is actually likely to lead to less time wasted with other, likely less productive activities.

You also never know when one of those completely unrelated side projects will come in handy.

nostrademons
I usually ignore almost all the text in a job ad, because the vast majority of them all say the same thing. You want my attention? Give me an interesting puzzle to solve.

Actually, I find that the coding questions a company gives you can say a lot about the company. I really liked FriendFeed's interview problems, even though I struggled with them, because I saw them and went "Wow, these two questions test for nearly everything you need to know about a candidate, and do so with really simple problem descriptions." That's elegance - doing a lot with a little. While with some company's problems, you gotta wonder why they bother.

(That applies to some of the interview questions I asked at my last employer...damn, I was an idiot. But nobody else was asking any coding questions.)

misterbwong
Out of curiosity, where can I view FriendFeed's interview problems? I'd like to see them and gauge my current state.
nostrademons
Apply to them and get through the initial phone screen. (And don't take the job I want ;-P.) I'm not sure if they're public.
Tichy
I am tired of the puzzle approach to recruiting.

Ultimately it is nothing but an upfront investment I have to make just to gain an interview, without a guarantee for a job. How would you like a job ad that read "to apply, send us 1000$ in cash"?

nostrademons
What, like college? ;-)

The advantage of places with puzzles is that everyone else had to go through them too (you hope; if it's just you, something's wrong). That keeps the bar high and ensures you won't be working with idiots.

Most worthwhile things require some up-front investment without a guaranteed payoff. Finance means putting the money up now for a hopefully higher return later. Education requires that you study now for skills later. Startups require that you build something now and hope you can get people to pay for it later. (Well, not always, but the bootstrap approach of finding a customer first requires that the customer pay up first and then take on the risk that you can't deliver.)

The trick is on doing due-diligence on the job first and making sure it's something worth investing in.

Tichy
I don't know, maybe rather than wasting time on random puzzles, it would be a better investment of time to create some cool application as a demo? I don't think any startup would require dhh or pg to solve some puzzles before considering their job applications.

With college also, you get something in return for your investment (hopefully) - skills.

Of course if you just feel like chilling, why not choose some job puzzles.

thwarted
You're welcome to write a few books and become well-known for your business or programming acumen as part of your investment of time early on for future payoff.
boris
What about a "great hacker"? Here is a position we advertised in a local LUG. While writing it up I kept asking myself if I would reply to an email like this. Feel free to take it apart:

http://lists.clug.org.za/pipermail/clug-work/2008-July/00062...

eworoshow
It's a tiny thing, but in your introductory paragraph you use [1] twice where the second instance should likely read [2].
boris
It was a hidden test: we only hire people that spot this. Joking, of course.
eru
Not only notice this - how would you know? They also have to be anal enough to tell you.
comatose_kid
Pretty good listing.

I noticed that the posting following yours was looking for a 'Python Ninja and Sensei'. What's next? Python Sumo?

blogimus
To paraphrase from a popular movie:

"When everyone is a rock star, no one is."

fallentimes
In general, when people use cliche, uncreative analogies to describe something, it comes off as ridiculous.

Everything from GE calling their Six Sigma employees "black belts", to sales forces looking for "movers and shakers", to Fortune 500 companies overusing sports analogies, to people looking for "rockstar" developers.

It's trite and makes them look awful.

DocSavage
When just about everyone is a rock star, the lone groupie will be in high demand.
ivankirigin
There is a lesson for the long tail here, right?
sosuke
I see some postings for code ninjas but where is all the love for code pirates?

Pirates need love too!

thorax
Well, I wanted that, too ("Python Pirates, Arr!") But it has a little bit of a bad connotation. Sounds like people who steal code all the time.

"Pirates ship it."

transburgh
I have to listen to the "ninja" term all the time in my office. It drives me up the wall.
immad
Is that because you don't want your ninja identity exposed?
aaronblohowiak
Why would he be climbing walls if he didn't want to be exposed?
swombat
Try walking on the floor instead, and they might not catch on to your secret identity.
fortes
I find it funny that, typically, these companies want 'rock stars,' but are unwilling to pay a commiserate rate.

If you really believe you want a star, say John Resig or someone similar, you better have a kick-ass project and be prepared to pay for him ... otherwise, you're just hoping you can get someone good on the cheap.

SwellJoe
Work environment is also a big issue. I've known great developers (a few of which have written code every Python developer uses every day) who've made their employment decisions based on how they'll be treated, who they'll be working with, and with what tools they'll be working (and even what they'll be working on....Open Source development has a strong allure for many developers, beyond mere money). Aeron chairs have a reputation for being a "boom era boondoggle", but if you don't provide a good chair, you won't keep a good developer sitting for long. Great recent hardware to work on is a given. Big monitors, a given. Whatever software and hardware they need to be comfortable: trackball or fancy mouse, weird keyboard, monitor stand, etc. Likewise for snacks and their favorite beverages.

As a startup, I'm running cheap. But, when it comes time to hire folks, I'm stocking the damned fridge with the best stuff money can buy, buying great chairs and huge monitors, and anything else I can to make working for me and with me the best work experience of their lives. Even if it costs $5000-$7500 right off the bat to equip a developer, that's chump change compared to the opportunity cost of hiring a new one to replace him if he leaves. And it's a small percentage of their total compensation package. (And we have that wonderfully alluring Open Source thing going for us, so we won't lose folks just because they don't get to see their code set free.)

Reckon we could hire Resig? I hear he likes Perl.

rhymes
which is the name of your company :) ?
SwellJoe
Virtualmin. We'll be hiring for a couple of positions a little later this year (primarily related to our new cloud computing products, rather than what you see on our website today). Feel free to send over your resume.
brk
One thing that you just generally have to watch out for with startup job postings is the people who have drunk too much of their own Kool Aid. Everyone believes they will change the world and make a major impact. Some certainly will change the world, others will "merely" exist in a self-sustaining niche that never changes the game, but earns everyone a nice salary.

Most startups are masters of spin, you pretty much have to be. Every developer is a "Rock Star", every VC is "Top Tier", every release is a "Revolutionary enhancement", and even though there could be 8 players in any one market, each one is somehow or another the "Leader", "Market Leader", or "Top Ranked" one.

Don't be turned off JUST by the job posting...

nickb
"ROCK STAR Developer" is probably a synonym for an underpaid, overworked developers ;). They can't pay you with money so they pay you with empty superlatives.
andrewparker
Meh... after working with a team of 20 developers for a few months, I could very clearly tell you who are the rock stars and who are not. Particularly in software development, some people are just unbelievably better than others.
ivankirigin
I've found that the vast majority of functioning code is written by a small minority of people at the company. The current exception for me is Tipjoy. That's because I'm the only developer, and own 100% of both the angelic and filthy code.

While the term "rock star" is a bit silly, a goal of mine is to grab someone from that 1-5% pool at a company that actually writes good code.

iamdave
I don't think someone who simply rocks to the beat of chic and trendy catch phrases means they can produce the best code.
ivankirigin
I wouldn't get so hung up on wording of a job post. Talking to someone for 20 seconds will give you inordinately more information.
pg
Job ads are usually full of cliches. The interesting thing to me is how much they've have changed. Ten years ago it was "team player." Now it's "rockstar." Silly as it is, that's at least a sign of progress. It means employers have now realized that you want the smartest programmers, rather than obedient ones.

I suspect Google's example is the main reason for this change. Or evolution.

jmatt
So from your perspective the companies that use "rockstar" and similar terms are probably better for hackers than a standard job posting? Since they are at least looking for the right type of programmers... I can see that perspective.

It's always possible that some horrible HR person posted the job. I've talked to some horrible HR people at Microsoft and Google in the past (when they were "cool" places to work with super smart types).

I think the most obvious move is to interview and talk to the people you will be working for/with. In many cases the specific project or team is as important as the company.

The job ad is just to get that initial interest. To get you to commit to sending a resume or taking a phone call.

bjclark
So, smartest programmers = rockstars? Highly doubtful.
jmatt
Silly as it is, that's at least a sign of progress. It means employers have now realized that you want the smartest programmers, rather than obedient ones.

Yeah but that seems to be what PG is saying here.

steveplace
Clearly we need to develop some new titles

1) Code Baristas

2) Python Jockeys

3) CrackerJack Developers (retro!)

byrneseyeview
Java Zeppelins.
dangoldin
Perl Bandits.
incomethax
Ruby Wranglers.
abossy
LinkedIn profile: updated.
mroman
Ruby Samurais?

Ruby Commandos?

:)

LogicHoleFlaw
Lua Lunatics
jsmcgd
Lisp Elitists
mroman
Scheme plotters
bootload
"... Clearly we need to develop some new titles ..."

T-Rex's

volida
so this is reddit after all
bootload
"... T-Rex: so this is reddit after all ..."

I disagree.

Puns are hacker activities. The real power of a pun is being able to see things from different angles and perspectives. References to "reddit", cynicism and reasons not to learn seem to be closer to what you mean ~ http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=248509

mroman
Thank you, I am relieved that someone pointed that out, I was kind of worried, I mean, this is a site for HACKERS after all . . .
volida
i meant it in a joking way, because reddit was the first time I observed the phenomenon in node comments.

after all reddit was in its begginings a hackers place

iigs
This is resolutely brilliant.

My employer follows the Starbucks antipattern of calling employees "partners". No longer content to be a UNIX Engineer, I'm henceforth a UNIX Barista.

Thank you for this. You've made my day.

joshwa
More terms to avoid:

  * Ninja
  * Guru
  * ___ - Fu
  * Kick-Ass ___
  * ___ Chops
  * Mad ___ Skill[sz]
t0pj
Sounds like a short list for potential .com's. :)
Chocobean
Actually I saw "Jedi Knight" once too. "plzadd kthxbai"
wheels
"Ninja" and "Rockstar" are just a dorky way of saying "We're looking for energetic, self-motivating high-achievers to work in a dynamic team on its way to the top!" In other words, nothing.

If I read an ad that was looking for an expert in graph theory, or genetic algorithms, or whatever, with a strong knowledge of C++ for a small team where there were still opportunities to be treated as a co-founder ... then we're getting somewhere.

The problem with "rock star" and "ninja" isn't just that they sound dumb, it's that they're usually just a way of saying, "We don't really know what we're looking for, but if you're a workaholic, it might be you."

kirubakaran
'Wanted: Rock Star programmer for Bubblegum Pop company'
awt
I HATE IT. It turns me off too. I wonder if it attracts certain people though?
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
nraynaud
Is anybody looking for a surfer dude developer ?
brianr
sure. drop me a line, email is in my profile.
icky
Don't listen to him, OP. He failed to refer to you as "brah".
vaksel
the problem is that for every good programmer there are a hundred that are just horrible, so I find that the whole "Rock Star/Guru" thing is just there to weed out the guy who has to lookup in his book how to do a hello world application
sutro
I used to love reading John Carmack's finger-based blog (flog?). "finger @idsoftware.com" still yields the company directory listing (not sure if it's still up-to-date). With the exception of the CEO, everyone has a simple, functional title like Programmer or Artist. The humility and understatement implicit in the listing -- John Carmack, Programmer -- is something that more companies and individuals should aspire to. He isn't a rock star, ninja, or even an engineer, architect, or developer. He's just a programmer. One of the best.
nailer
Engineer seems as humble as programmer to me.
sutro
To me, "engineer" and "architect" are terms originally pulled from other disciplines -- perhaps as an attempt to lend credence to the seemingly less substantial act of mere "programming." John Carmack and id software, to me, represent the disavowal of all pretense, the refusal to seek the respectability of more historically established fields. They are programmers and they are proud.
nailer
I use 'engineer' because I do other things than programming (my job title is 'Technical Specialist'). Programming, systems administartion, writing processes for the software and reviewing architectural designs.

Everything I do pretty much falls into either software or electrical (hardware) engineering, at a higher or lower level depending on the job. I don't think of mechanical and structural engineers as having a monopoly on the term.

sethg
I am reminded of how at Bell Labs/Lucent, all the geek jobs had the title "Member of the Technical Staff" or "Distinguished Member of the Technical Staff".
jws
We've solved that another way. Our employees get to choose their own title (except they can't use a legally significant name or VP without permission).

We have:

   * Head Greenskeeper
   * Mighty God of Thunder
   * Princess
... along with the usual "senior software engineer" and such. You might think that would remove the meaning from titles, but I can tell you... I'll take a Mighty God of Thunder or a Head Greenskeeper for my project any day over someone that put Senior Software Architect on their business card.
Leon
Why don't you choose for the best, regardless of the label they apply to themselves?
jws
I do. I just told you their labels.
gaius
I'm sure that looks really good on their CVs.
rfunduk
I don't see the big deal. Especially if it's just a job post title. Think of it as just another way to say 'Senior' without implying any specific years of experience or worse, age.
drewcrawford
Alternatively, are there any "fun" job titles that are actually decent? Our founders are trying to think of something to call themselves that's not as boring as CEO/CTO/etc.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)