So, this is the recommendation, last sentence of the article:
“If leaders really cared about people, the clearly rational and ethical thing to do would be to fully end the unsupportable government mandates. Continuing pandemic mandates is not just destroying people’s lives and livelihoods. It is killing people.”
But...what shall we do about the deadly, novel airborne pathogen?
> not from a virus with an “infection fatality rate” of 0.15-0.2% across all age groups, and 0.03 to 0.04% in those under 70 years old. (This means, 99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives.)
Not if the statistics in this article are to be believed.
If you don’t believe the statistics, argue about that. Otherwise your argument is baseless.
The Grand County coroner is calling attention to the way the state health department is classifying some deaths. The coroner, Brenda Bock, says two of their five deaths related to COVID-19 were people who died of gunshot wounds.
Meanwhile, multiple sources suggest that they are vastly inflated ;
" ... That, of course, can mean anything from having had a recent positive COVID-19 test (which may or may not have been accurate) to having tested positive months earlier to simply having been declared positive based on symptoms (with hospitals facing strong financial incentives to claim COVID-19 deaths).
For the sake of argument, however, let us assume that the CDC’s numbers are valid. Out of those 164,280 deaths, the CDC calculates that just six percent of them, or 9,857, were caused solely by COVID-19. “For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death,” the agency says. In other words, 94 percent of those who died with COVID-19 already had two or more other serious health issues such as hypertension or diabetes." [0]
Are you claiming that we may find out soon that 136,000 people (40% of total Covid deaths) are not actually dead? Maybe hiding? Maybe all died of gunshot wounds? Have gun deaths spiked by 350% this year? Has any other major cause of death spiked by an exorbitant amount in 2020? If so we should really be looking into this.
How many of these people would have died in the next year without the intervention of Covid ? The general idea is that lockdowns are doing way more harm than they prevent. As acknowledged by the WHO and many others ;
" “We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Dr. David Nabarro said to The Spectator’s Andrew Neil. “The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.” " [0].
" ... thousands of medical health experts signed their names to a petition calling for the end of coronavirus lockdowns, citing the “irreparable damage” they’ve caused.
"As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists, we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection,” read the petition, known as the Great Barrington Declaration. "Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health." " [1]
Every year from all people in the US aged between 75 and 85 about 5% dies. 85 and up it’s about 13%. A lot of things are deadly to old people, a tenth of that is a minor part and it is certainly debatable whether asking these people to live in isolation for a year is worth that 10% less chance of dying.
Compare also the 480000 US deaths yearly from tobacco, which could be prevented much easier than corona.
But anyway, it is impossible to debate weighing these statistics and measures in a civil manner so I’ll excuse myself and you can just echo around with your fellow lockdown fans.
COVID has been spiking here since November and everyone is wearing masks. I'm not sure what more could be done. Complete lockdown is, like any extreme measure, not practically possible. People need to eat, essential things need to get done.
Only if you if you intentionally ignore reality. Spain decimated it's spread rate during the first lockdown, running down their 800 daily deaths down to zero in amout a month of lockdown.
Every single time a restrictive lockdown was imposed for over 3 weeks, spread and death rates dropped to a fraction of their initial rate.
> I'm not sure what more could be done.
The US is renowned for doing barely anything.
Politically the US even rejects the use of facial masks. That's telling.
Debating statistics and measures is hard because of the sheer quantity of slightly varied information. And even if numbers were universally agreed upon and understood, and it were as simple as 10% greater risk, we can’t make decisions by a show of hands. If 60% of people were willing to take the risk, are the rest supposed to suck it up?
> Compare also the 480000 US deaths yearly from tobacco, which could be prevented much easier than corona.
Tobacco is an epidemic too, but given that it spreads via psychological and sociological factors rather than virally, I’d make the argument that it’s actually much harder to combat.
Yes, you’re right about the show of hands. This is why the preservation of individual liberty is such a fundamental part of living in a just society.
If people want to isolate or be locked down they are free to do so, but one person’s fear is not a just claim on another person’s life or property. Locking other people in their homes because you’re afraid is immoral.
These "statistics" are not credible. More than 0.1% of all Americans (340k) have already died of COVID-19. If the IFR were 0.15-0.2%, more than half of the population would have been infected already and the spread would be pretty much over. Instead, seroprevalence shows that about 20% of Americans have been infected, meaning we have 600k or so deaths to go in the absence of controls.
As for "99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives" this is weaseling even given their low IFR estimates. It deliberately excludes those most likely to die! This doesn't look like good faith. An article about the harms of isolation doesn't have to, and shouldn't, minimize the facts in this way.
How about actively sanitizing areas, and only quarantining the vulnerable, while only shutting down controlled areas with evidence of the virus? Is that not safe enough for these numbers? The real question is: why is this "safe" side shoving down their "solution" down everyone else's throat? At what point does coercion becoming a solution? "DO AS I SAY OR ELSE", is really the problem here, and not the virus. People are surviving, and are building antibodies, this is not an apocalyptical virus that we have to completely shutdown and obey.
> (...) and only quarantining the vulnerable, (...)
Because the epidemic spreads by infecting everyone, and the more widespread it becomes the more saturated health services will be and the more likely is that the more vulnerable elements of society will be affected.
And the odds that you are infected drop radically from almost certain to highly unlikely if everyone around you just acts responsibly and just follows basic precautions such as wearing a mask, washing their hands, practice social distancing, and whenever possible practice social isolation.
Think about it for a second. What do you think is the attack vector of, say, nursing homes? Do you believe it's the senior citizens who are already confind there, or everyone else who they are in contact with?
That is not a quarantine. Quarantining the vulnerable means they don't come in contact with anyone who may be in contact with the general public.
Are the options really shut everything down OR millions of people die? We're supposed to think there is high risk everywhere, while the ones who made the rules are constantly breaking them. Efforts could have gone into instant detection of the virus in an environment, and effective measures to quickly quarantine people in targeted areas, you know more creative solutions that actually don't destroy the lives who are not really at risk.
> American people are crying out for help and dying − not from a virus with an “infection fatality rate” of 0.15-0.2% across all age groups, and 0.03 to 0.04% in those under 70 years old. (This means, 99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives.) No, the desperation and distress are in response to the government’s unprecedented mandates and lockdowns.
Yup, as common sense dictates and as highlighted in the Great Barrington Declaration ;
Americans are suffering from the costs of a deadly pandemic.
Countries that have managed the pandemic have avoided a lockdown. Countries that haven't, have been forced into it either through government mandate or otherwise, because people who can afford to, will not expose themselves to risks if it means getting a disease and then dying because your hospitals are full since you've done nothing to manage the pandemic.
The statistics cited in this are cherry picked, and therefore questionable. Fatality rates are closer to 0.5%, and the current death toll for COVID in the US is a few times higher than the numbers the article quotes.
I actually think the lockdowns should have been handled in a way that was more careful to preserve education and the economy.
I wish there were balanced discussions of this topic online, but I haven’t seen any.
I remember when the US had an independent press, and congress had an apolitical research wing. Either of those would have saved 100,000’s this year.
There's the possibility that COVID-19 directly causes mental illness, maybe even in people who are otherwise not symptomatic. I saw a thread about that recently, that I didn't want to read, but the possibility was already on my mind. Obviously you have to evaluate the number of coincidences you would expect by chance, though.
What a heap of 'sky is falling' FUD. "American Institute for Economic Research" ? == a 'non-partisan' 'free-market think tank'.
Wikipedia: "AIER issued a statement in October 2020 called the "Great Barrington Declaration" that argued for a herd immunity strategy to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic.[13] It was roundly condemned by public health experts.[13][14] Anthony Fauci, the White House's top infectious disease expert, called the declaration "total nonsense" and unscientific.... AIER paid for ads on Facebook promoting its articles against government social distancing measures and mask mandates.... In 2018 it reportedly received US$68,100 from the Charles Koch Foundation"
Hysteria:
"a country at the breaking point."
"American life has been cancelled"
"desperation and distress are in response to the government’s unprecedented mandates and lockdowns. "
27 comments
[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 64.6 ms ] thread“If leaders really cared about people, the clearly rational and ethical thing to do would be to fully end the unsupportable government mandates. Continuing pandemic mandates is not just destroying people’s lives and livelihoods. It is killing people.”
But...what shall we do about the deadly, novel airborne pathogen?
> not from a virus with an “infection fatality rate” of 0.15-0.2% across all age groups, and 0.03 to 0.04% in those under 70 years old. (This means, 99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives.)
Not if the statistics in this article are to be believed.
If you don’t believe the statistics, argue about that. Otherwise your argument is baseless.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/coronavirus-death-ce...
The Grand County coroner is calling attention to the way the state health department is classifying some deaths. The coroner, Brenda Bock, says two of their five deaths related to COVID-19 were people who died of gunshot wounds.
https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-de...
I could post more but take a look at these.
" ... That, of course, can mean anything from having had a recent positive COVID-19 test (which may or may not have been accurate) to having tested positive months earlier to simply having been declared positive based on symptoms (with hospitals facing strong financial incentives to claim COVID-19 deaths).
For the sake of argument, however, let us assume that the CDC’s numbers are valid. Out of those 164,280 deaths, the CDC calculates that just six percent of them, or 9,857, were caused solely by COVID-19. “For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death,” the agency says. In other words, 94 percent of those who died with COVID-19 already had two or more other serious health issues such as hypertension or diabetes." [0]
[0] ; https://thenewamerican.com/cdc-fewer-than-10-000-americans-h...
This line of reasoning is specious at best, disinformation at worst.
Also known as a positive diagnosis.
" “We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Dr. David Nabarro said to The Spectator’s Andrew Neil. “The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.” " [0].
" ... thousands of medical health experts signed their names to a petition calling for the end of coronavirus lockdowns, citing the “irreparable damage” they’ve caused.
"As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists, we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies, and recommend an approach we call Focused Protection,” read the petition, known as the Great Barrington Declaration. "Current lockdown policies are producing devastating effects on short and long-term public health." " [1]
[0] ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=915&v=x8oH7cBxgwE&feature=yo...
[1] ; https://gbdeclaration.org/
See also ;
Years of potential life lost
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Years_of_potential_life_lost
COVID-19, unemployment, and suicide
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...
Compare also the 480000 US deaths yearly from tobacco, which could be prevented much easier than corona.
But anyway, it is impossible to debate weighing these statistics and measures in a civil manner so I’ll excuse myself and you can just echo around with your fellow lockdown fans.
Keep in mind that right now covid-19 is the leading cause of death in the US.
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201217/covid-19-ranks-as-a...
Unlike cancer and heart disease, covid19 can be prevented or even erradicated with small behavioral changes.
COVID has been spiking here since November and everyone is wearing masks. I'm not sure what more could be done. Complete lockdown is, like any extreme measure, not practically possible. People need to eat, essential things need to get done.
Only if you if you intentionally ignore reality. Spain decimated it's spread rate during the first lockdown, running down their 800 daily deaths down to zero in amout a month of lockdown.
Every single time a restrictive lockdown was imposed for over 3 weeks, spread and death rates dropped to a fraction of their initial rate.
> I'm not sure what more could be done.
The US is renowned for doing barely anything.
Politically the US even rejects the use of facial masks. That's telling.
> Compare also the 480000 US deaths yearly from tobacco, which could be prevented much easier than corona.
Tobacco is an epidemic too, but given that it spreads via psychological and sociological factors rather than virally, I’d make the argument that it’s actually much harder to combat.
If people want to isolate or be locked down they are free to do so, but one person’s fear is not a just claim on another person’s life or property. Locking other people in their homes because you’re afraid is immoral.
As for "99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives" this is weaseling even given their low IFR estimates. It deliberately excludes those most likely to die! This doesn't look like good faith. An article about the harms of isolation doesn't have to, and shouldn't, minimize the facts in this way.
Because the epidemic spreads by infecting everyone, and the more widespread it becomes the more saturated health services will be and the more likely is that the more vulnerable elements of society will be affected.
And the odds that you are infected drop radically from almost certain to highly unlikely if everyone around you just acts responsibly and just follows basic precautions such as wearing a mask, washing their hands, practice social distancing, and whenever possible practice social isolation.
Think about it for a second. What do you think is the attack vector of, say, nursing homes? Do you believe it's the senior citizens who are already confind there, or everyone else who they are in contact with?
That is not a quarantine. Quarantining the vulnerable means they don't come in contact with anyone who may be in contact with the general public.
Are the options really shut everything down OR millions of people die? We're supposed to think there is high risk everywhere, while the ones who made the rules are constantly breaking them. Efforts could have gone into instant detection of the virus in an environment, and effective measures to quickly quarantine people in targeted areas, you know more creative solutions that actually don't destroy the lives who are not really at risk.
Yup, as common sense dictates and as highlighted in the Great Barrington Declaration ;
https://gbdeclaration.org/
Americans are suffering from the costs of a deadly pandemic.
Countries that have managed the pandemic have avoided a lockdown. Countries that haven't, have been forced into it either through government mandate or otherwise, because people who can afford to, will not expose themselves to risks if it means getting a disease and then dying because your hospitals are full since you've done nothing to manage the pandemic.
I actually think the lockdowns should have been handled in a way that was more careful to preserve education and the economy.
I wish there were balanced discussions of this topic online, but I haven’t seen any.
I remember when the US had an independent press, and congress had an apolitical research wing. Either of those would have saved 100,000’s this year.
This is such poor writing it makes me stop and disregard the rest.
Wikipedia: "AIER issued a statement in October 2020 called the "Great Barrington Declaration" that argued for a herd immunity strategy to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic.[13] It was roundly condemned by public health experts.[13][14] Anthony Fauci, the White House's top infectious disease expert, called the declaration "total nonsense" and unscientific.... AIER paid for ads on Facebook promoting its articles against government social distancing measures and mask mandates.... In 2018 it reportedly received US$68,100 from the Charles Koch Foundation"
Hysteria:
"a country at the breaking point."
"American life has been cancelled"
"desperation and distress are in response to the government’s unprecedented mandates and lockdowns. "
"Growing numbers have lost the ability to cope. "