The #1 reason I still use post-its on my laptop and monitor (and... sometimes physically on my phone, in extreme cases): there's a real-world reminder that sticks around when you're powered off, disconnected, etc.
They're brightly colored, often aren't stuck on at right angles, and frankly refuse to be ignored. They're just the right amount of annoying, and I'll be interested to see how digital GTD applications manage to toe that line.
I think the biggest problem with task apps are that they are overly complex given their sole purpose is such a simple action. I decided to tackle this problem myself, and here's what I ended up with: http://letspocket.com - not perfect by any means, but I use it every day and love it.
For me it's to do with spatial organisation. If I'm working on something I normally have a large sheet of paper with all my tiny notes, and I know once I've written something down where it is - so I know that I scribbled down the background color over here, and the dimensions for that div over there...
The lack of any rigidity or standard form for input is also liberating. I can scribble down copy, lists, diagrams, flow charts, all with a single intuitive interface. Name an app that can claim that!
That's one thing I do miss, although using a bigger piece of paper makes the need to rearrange less frequent. I generally make notes like this only for transitory stuff, if I am sticking with paper notes for a big system then different bits will be on different pieces of paper, which allows easy rearranging.
Task apps impose unnecessary structure and interface on the tasks themselves, even to the point of classifying them as tasks. The moment something calls itself a "Task App" it's lost against TextEdit, which is useful for tasks/ideas/lists. So a good task app would not be a dedicated task app, but rather a free-form plain-text interface and these already exist.
I agree. I don't understand how so many apps can be springing up with the same flaws. They all seem to classify themselves as a tool specifically for the listing of things a person needs to do. To me, this would be similar to buying paper that is only to be used for to-do lists. While I”m sure that type of paper exists, it doesn't beat good ole' fashioned white paper for me.
Also - an interesting note - I find myself constantly sending myself emails with reminders, links, ideas, etc. And I use gmail which has a built-in task-listing app. So apparently I find the gmail task list to be such a pain that I'm willing to misuse my email service just to avoid it. I think it's time to look at this problem from a new angle. If I am to adopt a new list-making technology, I need to be making lists before I ever realized I had started. Maybe gmail could detect when I send emails to myself and start a list for me and automatically archive the message. Just a thought. Maybe in the right direction?
Apart from those "psycho-tactile" arguments, the biggest problems of those GTD apps is their ridiculous overhead. Projects, sub-projects, sub-sub-projects, tags, folders, due dates, scheduling, etc. I'm sure many find those things useful, otherwise there wouldn't be such a market for these apps, but I inevitably get lost in all the organizing.
The only GTD app I've ever found useful is TaskPaper [1], and that's because it pretty much "just" a piece of paper, taking just enough advantage of the possiblities of software to make it truly powerful.
Why are these simple apps native although they would perfectly work as a web app. I don't want to download something to test it. And I don't want to sign up, regardless of how simple the sign up process is, we have the power to build things were you can get started right away.
Just use Local Storage to get the user started right away. When he decides to sign up you can copy the local data to the server side storage.
Having to download a native app and having to create an account are two entirely separate matters.
And FTR, part of the advantage of native apps is that they'll never be relegated to "just another browser tab" or lost in a sea of favicons. When I'm going to invest time in a workflow / application / product, I almost always prefer the native app to web app for this particular reason.
Having to download a native app and having to create an account are two entirely separate matters.
Yes they are two seperate matters. But they still have a problem in common: They introduce barriers you have to overcome until you can use / test the app. I guess an app without such a barrier is doing a lot better.
And FTR, part of the advantage of native apps is that they'll never be relegated to "just another browser tab" or lost in a sea of favicons. When I'm going to invest time in a workflow / application / product, I almost always prefer the native app to web app for this particular reason.
Valid point, this is one of the downsides when you focus on non-native apps. It will be interesting to see if this changes when web apps get more traction. If they ever do.
I want to have my tasks off-line, because I don't trust the Cloud, and I know that for 50% of my day (not counting sleep time) I won't have Internet access. I want my data to be accessible in a raw format, so that when I get bored with one application I can easily migrate to another. I want my data to be mine.
I personally like Emacs Org Mode and I use Dropbox to synchronise tasks between computer. It's much more powerful than most TODO/GTD apps I've seen, it doesn't really break your workflow (as a developer, I spend a lot of time in Emacs anyway), it just works and I have full power of a decent text editor embedded in it. That means keyboard macros, incremental search, copy-paste, etc. Some TODO apps, especially web ones, end up in rewriting the capabilities of a text editor, without success. Reminds me of Greenspun's 10th Rule, but applied to Emacs instead of Common Lisp.
For example, WorkFlowy has this amazing look&feel, it's beautiful, simple, functional, but I get angry as soon as I try to write something, because it lacks lots of the basic components of a Windows 'text field' box and also has weird (Mac?) shortcuts that interfere with my text writing habits (the "typical ones", not the "Emacs ones"). At least that was last time I checked (few months ago).
If you like TaskPaper then you should give NotationalVelocity a shot.
TP was still trying to do too much for me. I.e. copy/paste would inevitably mess up the structure, and wait, why am I supposed to babysit that structure in first place? And what's up with the awkward fulltext search collapsing projects by default when matching them?
NV doesn't need any structure. It burns into your muscle memory and then just disappears. I can't praise it highly enough.
Looks like TODO list for textmate. After trying nearly everything under the sun and have found this as the only way of reproducing the idea "flow" of writing on paper.
After years of frustration with task apps, I tried to migrate my system to pen and paper and... back to a task app in 2 days! The biggest pluses of an app (as opposed to paper) are quick text search and copy & paste, especially for URLs. After this experience I realized how much I depend on URLs for my daily activities: For example, to reference GMail emails, follow-ups, search results, things to read, etc... Maybe pen & paper is perfectly fine for most professions, but for techies unfortunately we are stuck with (bad) task apps for now.
Side-note: I have used so many task apps that I am embarrassed to list them here, and right now I am settled with Toodledo for the main task db and Tomboy for daily tasks and general notes. I am not totally happy with it, but at least it does not get on my way. My "system" is a combination of GTD and Covey's 7-habits that I use for almost a decade.
The ability to copy/paste from/to emails, source code, and documents does keep me using task apps instead of paper.
Also, I find it very hard to keep large amounts of paper organized in a useful way over longer times, and you need to carry it around. When you keep it online, you can access it from everywhere.
Search function is very useful and more efficient than rooting through stacks of old paper. If you have a lot of notes, you'll always lose exactly that sheet of paper that was most important.
Good old paper does have some advantages, but it doesn't cut it for me anymore.
This is exactly why I think that technologies like SmartPen[1] are likely to really become a huge success: it combines the best of both world. There is also the LogiPen[2] but it seems a bit less awesome.
Some of them are, and that's why I avoid webapps when I have a decent native alternatives. I often spend more than 50% of my day without Internet connection. Also, I think that small web companies that disappear after a year or two are not that uncommon.
I've been using a completely paper-based GTD system for a year or so, mostly because I haven't known any really convenient native app for task management. I switched to Org Mode later, but I don't think there was any paper fault in this - it's just that my GTD schemes always collapse after 6 to 12 months and I have to start from scratch. So then I sometimes switch tools.
One disadvantage of paper-based scheme (at least the one I've used) that I know is that it can get noisy when you have lots of tasks finished. It's harder to find an active TODO item between 20 or so crossed out DONEs on a page.
You can make yourself a HipsterPDA. Or just have a plain notepad. Having that with yourself is also beneficial for capturing ideas. The only thing that beats paper here, for me, is a one-or-two-clicks voice note recorder in your phone.
Or if you go everywhere with a backpack, you can carry a thin paper binder with your task list with you. I've once used to do both binder and HipsterPDA at the same time.
I thought by 'CL' you mean 'Common Lisp' and went straight to downloading the application source. It's not Lisp, it's 'Command Line' :(. Anyway, the app looks really nice.
Many of the GTD guys do use paper, for the same reasons. I sell a GTD app [1] but used paper (moleskine booklet) when I was at b school and working a full day and also writing Tudumo when I had spare minutes. Paper is easier than a phone, tangible, makes you think about what you're putting down. The GTD guys call this your 'ubiquitous capture' device - something that's with you always, not back in the office, so when you think of something you need to do, it's right there. I have an iPhone with various todo apps, but still keep the moleskine in my notebook bag.
Totally. In fact despite my using the name (which GTD'ers would recognise), I don't get the brand aspect of it at all. I bought it just to see why the paper-users fawned over it, and I've found a 20c ring-bound notebook worked better since I could easily tear pages out.
Handwriting a to do list is also way faster since you don't have to worry about app switching, typos getting corrected to the wrong word, and random occasional slowdowns that always seem to happen right when I really need my phone to work. Also it's hard to make a to do list on your phone while you're talking on the phone - yes there are headphones but then you have to untangle those, plug them in etc, even if you just need them for a minute (another ongoing issue!).
I've recently ditched paper in favor of org-mode. It took about 3 months of using org-mode before I was comfortable enough to consider using it for my task items. Even then I needed to wait until org-mode was more embedded in my daily workflow than going through my stack of paper notes.
I think part of the problem with other task apps is that they try to be really good at one thing; organizing tasks. The problem with this is that you want to spend as little time as possible organizing tasks, which means the apps marginalize themselves by nature. You don't get enough time to learn how to use them, you forget to check in, you keep stuff in your head, etc.
For me, org-mode worked because I spend a lot of time organizing things other than tasks in it. But if I wasn't already familiar with it, I'd be spending too much time trying to figure out how to use it and I'd probably forget to check it.
The problem generalizes to this: organizing tasks is not a generic problem. The problem is highly informed by your life. Paper works because you can do whatever you want with it. It only looks like people using paper are using the same system. They're probably not.
5. ... One knows a handwritten task takes a few moments to write, so one considers whether it should be done immediately more readily. Also, handwriting a task gives one time to decide to stop writing it down and do it/forget it. Task apps accept tasks as quickly as people type, so users might enter too many trivial tasks that should be completed immediately or dropped, and there is hardly any time to reconsider before the task is completely entered.
8. Assuming the task-keeper has good handwriting, the basics of an action item can be jotted down more quickly than entered in a computer or mobile device, to be revised later.
Author doesn't seem to be able to decide which is faster.
It is contradictory as written. I meant that paper is slower for writing the full task and faster for writing a brief word or symbol to jog the memory later. This depends on one's typing speed as well as one's ability to decipher cryptic notes, of course...
For collecting (which I later enter into my tasks software or Evernote) I end up using cheapo index cards from the office stockroom, and I have a mini-pen on my key ring.
The main ding against using paper for me is that I'm seriously out of practice when it comes to handwriting. My writing is often illegible even to me and my hand cramps up quickly after only a few lines of sustained writing.
I can "follow along" much more easily at a keyboard. The big problem with going all digital though is that even whipping out the iPad and jotting something down is "too much" time, in that I often say "screw it, I'll just try to remember it".
42 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 67.3 ms ] threadThey're brightly colored, often aren't stuck on at right angles, and frankly refuse to be ignored. They're just the right amount of annoying, and I'll be interested to see how digital GTD applications manage to toe that line.
This, definitely. Nothing helps retain information better than writing it down.
The lack of any rigidity or standard form for input is also liberating. I can scribble down copy, lists, diagrams, flow charts, all with a single intuitive interface. Name an app that can claim that!
If you want an intuitive task app that doesn't require you to register and feels like simple paper try: http://fourtimesdaily.com
it saves your tasks just on your computer (LocalStorage)
The only GTD app I've ever found useful is TaskPaper [1], and that's because it pretty much "just" a piece of paper, taking just enough advantage of the possiblities of software to make it truly powerful.
[1] http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/taskpaper
Just use Local Storage to get the user started right away. When he decides to sign up you can copy the local data to the server side storage.
And FTR, part of the advantage of native apps is that they'll never be relegated to "just another browser tab" or lost in a sea of favicons. When I'm going to invest time in a workflow / application / product, I almost always prefer the native app to web app for this particular reason.
Yes they are two seperate matters. But they still have a problem in common: They introduce barriers you have to overcome until you can use / test the app. I guess an app without such a barrier is doing a lot better.
And FTR, part of the advantage of native apps is that they'll never be relegated to "just another browser tab" or lost in a sea of favicons. When I'm going to invest time in a workflow / application / product, I almost always prefer the native app to web app for this particular reason.
Valid point, this is one of the downsides when you focus on non-native apps. It will be interesting to see if this changes when web apps get more traction. If they ever do.
I personally like Emacs Org Mode and I use Dropbox to synchronise tasks between computer. It's much more powerful than most TODO/GTD apps I've seen, it doesn't really break your workflow (as a developer, I spend a lot of time in Emacs anyway), it just works and I have full power of a decent text editor embedded in it. That means keyboard macros, incremental search, copy-paste, etc. Some TODO apps, especially web ones, end up in rewriting the capabilities of a text editor, without success. Reminds me of Greenspun's 10th Rule, but applied to Emacs instead of Common Lisp.
For example, WorkFlowy has this amazing look&feel, it's beautiful, simple, functional, but I get angry as soon as I try to write something, because it lacks lots of the basic components of a Windows 'text field' box and also has weird (Mac?) shortcuts that interfere with my text writing habits (the "typical ones", not the "Emacs ones"). At least that was last time I checked (few months ago).
TP was still trying to do too much for me. I.e. copy/paste would inevitably mess up the structure, and wait, why am I supposed to babysit that structure in first place? And what's up with the awkward fulltext search collapsing projects by default when matching them?
NV doesn't need any structure. It burns into your muscle memory and then just disappears. I can't praise it highly enough.
http://eightthumbs.com/idolists/
It let's you make lists and check off items. That's all!
Here is a boingboing article on it http://boingboing.net/2011/03/08/of-the-many-many-fac.html
Side-note: I have used so many task apps that I am embarrassed to list them here, and right now I am settled with Toodledo for the main task db and Tomboy for daily tasks and general notes. I am not totally happy with it, but at least it does not get on my way. My "system" is a combination of GTD and Covey's 7-habits that I use for almost a decade.
Also, I find it very hard to keep large amounts of paper organized in a useful way over longer times, and you need to carry it around. When you keep it online, you can access it from everywhere.
Search function is very useful and more efficient than rooting through stacks of old paper. If you have a lot of notes, you'll always lose exactly that sheet of paper that was most important.
Good old paper does have some advantages, but it doesn't cut it for me anymore.
[1] http://www.livescribe.com/smartpen/echo/
[2] http://www.logipen.com/
Paper is not dependent on:
-Having an internet connection
-Being booted into your OS
-Not in a full screen application
-Having enough battery
-Amazon's servers being up
-The code breaking in some weird corner case
-The company that's running the site declaring bankruptcy and packing up
While none of these things are especially high probability events, the fact such apps are dependent on so much infrastructure adds up.
I've been using a completely paper-based GTD system for a year or so, mostly because I haven't known any really convenient native app for task management. I switched to Org Mode later, but I don't think there was any paper fault in this - it's just that my GTD schemes always collapse after 6 to 12 months and I have to start from scratch. So then I sometimes switch tools.
One disadvantage of paper-based scheme (at least the one I've used) that I know is that it can get noisy when you have lots of tasks finished. It's harder to find an active TODO item between 20 or so crossed out DONEs on a page.
Or if you go everywhere with a backpack, you can carry a thin paper binder with your task list with you. I've once used to do both binder and HipsterPDA at the same time.
//EDIT
> I use taskwarrior. It's CL and kicks ass. http://taskwarrior.org
I thought by 'CL' you mean 'Common Lisp' and went straight to downloading the application source. It's not Lisp, it's 'Command Line' :(. Anyway, the app looks really nice.
[1] http://www.tudumo.com
I think part of the problem with other task apps is that they try to be really good at one thing; organizing tasks. The problem with this is that you want to spend as little time as possible organizing tasks, which means the apps marginalize themselves by nature. You don't get enough time to learn how to use them, you forget to check in, you keep stuff in your head, etc.
For me, org-mode worked because I spend a lot of time organizing things other than tasks in it. But if I wasn't already familiar with it, I'd be spending too much time trying to figure out how to use it and I'd probably forget to check it.
The problem generalizes to this: organizing tasks is not a generic problem. The problem is highly informed by your life. Paper works because you can do whatever you want with it. It only looks like people using paper are using the same system. They're probably not.
5. ... One knows a handwritten task takes a few moments to write, so one considers whether it should be done immediately more readily. Also, handwriting a task gives one time to decide to stop writing it down and do it/forget it. Task apps accept tasks as quickly as people type, so users might enter too many trivial tasks that should be completed immediately or dropped, and there is hardly any time to reconsider before the task is completely entered.
8. Assuming the task-keeper has good handwriting, the basics of an action item can be jotted down more quickly than entered in a computer or mobile device, to be revised later.
Author doesn't seem to be able to decide which is faster.
Am i the only one, who doesn't have a paper and pen at all? The only pen i own, is a small one from Victorinox swiss card (http://www.swissarmy.com/MultiTools/Pages/Product.aspx?categ...)
The main ding against using paper for me is that I'm seriously out of practice when it comes to handwriting. My writing is often illegible even to me and my hand cramps up quickly after only a few lines of sustained writing.
I can "follow along" much more easily at a keyboard. The big problem with going all digital though is that even whipping out the iPad and jotting something down is "too much" time, in that I often say "screw it, I'll just try to remember it".