HN Explorer

Why cant we find "our guy"??

4 points by dmlevi ↗ HN
So startup looking for "our guy", the right developer to take on our great idea. I cant begin to describe my frustration with trying to find someone. This is not just another equity job, we have some seed money and we have all the right connections to Angel and VC investors. Through all of our networking and interviewing, we still have not been able to find "our guy". Some developers thought the idea was too big and turned it down because its not their niche, others dont have time, etc. My intentions were never to ask HN for for this as I thought I would be able to find someone easily, but I wanted to reach out to all of you to see if you have any advice or if anyone is interested in hearing more.

UPDATE

The idea is a new travel site. We need help getting our vision to beta. We can offer a contracted cost with milestones plus equity depending on your level of experience and your current work load.

contact dmlevi[AT]GMAIL

30 comments

[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 68.7 ms ] thread
kylelibra
Maybe a brief description of "your idea" would be helpful for the discussion?
dmlevi
Its a new travel site. We need help bringing the idea to beta so we can test the market. The site will include the right travel API that we can use to customize the data anyway we want. We have a developer from Orbitz on board, he just does not have the time to develop this. We are looking for a sign up page, a results page and an email page. The beta is very simple and less dynamic than the big vision.
tauv
Maybe the idea is too big for the incentives you are offering?

What is the right developer?

A lot of start-ups are still looking for that all singing braniac super rock ninja star developer who can program 10 times as fast as everyone else.

But often they aren't willing to pay 10 times as much, or even a reasonable amount.

Keep in mind if you can't afford to pay a developer to work full time, then you need to pay them enough to make sacrificing a large portion of their social and family life in pursuit of seeing your idea succeed.

Also think about how you are pitching the idea. These guys are investors too, they are investing their time, years of experience, wisdom and hard graft into your idea. They need to believe that this will succeed if they push it hard enough.

Worst cases:

Your idea sucks - don't listen to nay-sayers so keep going even if everyone else says it won't work. Dont stop till you are ready too

Your idea is too big - break it into something smaller and more achievable

dmlevi
Well said. We did break it down to MVP. One reason it was turned down because the developer did not want to sign an NDA. We are not looking for a ninja braniac haha although that would be nice. We just want someone that is ready to join the team ;) They will paid for the job with equity incentives.
SingAlong
Maybe you should add your email to your profile or here in the post. The email field on your HN profile isn't public. You need to add it to the about field :)
dmlevi
haha thanks for your help

contact dmlevi[AT]GMAIL

tauv
I think a savvy developer would still want hard cash or something tangible other than just equity which is very volatile, although equity is an awesome bonus (if you get us an MVP /when we launch we will give you X%)

NDAs I think aren't so great either, even if a developer passes up, it makes it hard for them to recommend a someone else

If they don't pass it up, it makes it just that bit more stressful having to work very hard for an uncertain reward

Limited equity Some cash, even if it's just a token gesture (get what you pay for) A lot of gratitude Be more open, if developers can talk about your idea you might get people asking to work with or for you

Unless you've got the financial clout to go after anyone who breaches your NDA I'd guess you could hire a whole team of developers full-time. If not, well someone like Apple or Google will drown you in court if your idea really is that ground breaking. :( sad way

dmlevi
Great advice. This has been a learning experience for us. Although this is my idea, I am creating a team. Im letting people in on this. There is no way I can do this myself so we are truly looking for a partner. We are in Chicago with connections to lightbank, and all sorts of great stuff. My busines partner goes to U of Chicago Booth and his network is impressive.

As for NDA's we agree. We know its a sensitive subject but NDA's can be terminated once trust is built ;) In the beginning and over the internet (although HN is supposed to be a safe environment) we have made the decision to have NDA's pre beta release. Its really just precautionary measures...kinda like a prenup! We don't suspect anything bad will happen but its there just incase.

scottyallen
Get used to developers not wanting to sign NDAs. We've had it banged into our heads again and again that we shouldn't be signing NDAs, particularly when just starting to talk with someone about their project. Besides, it'll be good practice when you pitch to VCs - they don't sign NDAs either:)
dmlevi
We understand there are a million great ideas and its all execution but whats to stop a developer from saying "wow thats a great idea, I dont need them" When you are approaching a VC you already have eyes and a revenue model. They are already too late. I hear you and we are open to sharing our ideas without NDA's through personal connections. We have shared with developers that are connected in Chicago land area and if we could get a personal connection we dont have a problem with that.
scottyallen
The counter argument to that is "Great idea - what other value are you going to bring to the table?" For me, being asked to sign an NDA is often a signal that they don't have anything else unique to bring to the table, which is usually a recipe for failure. Instead, there should be some other reason why this idea will only succeed if you do it. Some good ones are personal domain expertise, access to partnerships, access to distribution channels, design/marketing skills, etc.

If all you bring to the table is an idea, than to be honest, the developer probably doesn't need you.

dmlevi
Well we were trying to stay modest but heres why we make great parnters.

1 - Our Education. MBA Students from University of Chicago Booth. Ranked top 5 MBA every year. The network is extremely strong and we have all the connections a startup could need.

2 - We have seed $. We can pay you to bang out the MVP in no more than 6 weeks with a nice equity bonus. We are looking for a partner.

3 - We are good guys. We want to make it and we think this is it. Simple as that. Its not this is my idea, do this or do that. The developer will be a partner and have insight and say. We hope to sell and then move on as a team to the next job.

scottyallen
Not to belabor the point, but none of the three things you listed are unique to you. They're the same three things that every other entrepreneur that's looking for an engineer or CTO is saying to prospective candidates.

None of these three points say anything about what you bring to the table that the engineer couldn't find anywhere else (ie, domain knowledge, partnerships, distribution, etc). Once you figure that part out, you won't need the NDA, because it would be a bonehead move to try and build it without you. Not to mention, your likelihood of success will go up dramatically.

Just my 2 cents...

[deleted]
(comment deleted)
humj
You mention a "big idea" and use the startup "team" rhetoric, but that's all par for the course. Think about all the signals you're giving off. Others have mentioned here already what the NDA signals. Contract-based pricing and vague equity incentives feels a lot like you're looking to outsource development of a huge project for too little return despite the "team" rhetoric, even if that's not your intention.

Options:

1. if you're looking for "your guy", (s)he needs to REALLY be part of the team. Don't tip-toe around it with vague incentives, contract-based pricing and NDAs. These things signal inconfidence.

2. Become "your guy". Or at least try. Shw that you're hustling and that this thing will get made with or without "your guy".

dmlevi
Humj thanks for your insight. You should understand my business partner and I are new to this. We have been reading posts for HN for a few months now trying to feel out the community. Although it seems my statement seems vague, dont mistake it for not being confident. Its purely two MBA's taking a leap. If we had development skills this wouldnt be a problem then would it? Part of the reason for finding "my guy" and your correct could be a woman too, is that we want to partner with a developer. I think you've mistaken my post. When I post an actual offer I will take this advice and not tip-toe. An NDA to us more like a pre-nup. Think of this way, we dont think anything is gonna happen but its there just incase? How can you argue against that as a developer? Im trying to learn here which is why I posted this so I value your opinion.
dmlevi
Also I did not say this was a "big idea", thats what developers have said to us that we pitched it too...
humj
I'm aware these may not be your intentions, as I stated in my post. I'm saying, be sure to step outside and think honestly about how it comes across to someone who isn't familiar with your or your business.
dmlevi
Ya, personally I dont feel good about the NDA either. I can understand how it comes off but I think developers should also put themselves in our shoes. I only send it when its someone Im dealing with online or someone that I dont have a personal connection with. I have pitched to a few developers in Chicago based off personal connections because there is no need to worry. Unfortunately it seems as HN is against this but I still have not heard a good enough argument to prove me otherwise. Its unfortunate that developers are judgmental when asked to sign an NDA, however I can see how it can come across. Im def thinking outside the box but at the same time, taking precautionary measures to ensure sustaining our intangible value.
maxdemarzi
David, it sucks to be in your position and I can sympathize. Most of us developers suck at UI/UX design and end up looking for "our guy/gal" designer too... and we don't have any money either.

A 21 month University of Chicago Booth MBA runs about 160k ( http://www.chicagobooth.edu/fulltime/admissions/costs.aspx ), two of those is 320k. For just another 30k (10% more than you are already in debt/paid for) you could probably find a development shop to do an MVP. But 5k -10k on E-lance isn't going to do it. ( http://www.elance.com/j/levine-group-llc/24158220/ )

dmlevi
Ya haha we realized that which is why we reached out on HN. You make a really good point. Thanks for your feedback.
dmlevi
Actually student loans is one of the best ways to borrow money. Very good point, we will look into this.
hoodoof
The answer is that you are looking for the wrong sort of person. You are looking for perfection and someone awesome.

You should be trying to find a good junior/graduate and spend your seed money on giving them a full time job.

They will make mistakes, not do it the best way or the right way, but if you work closely with them then SOMETHING will get built, enough to prove your concept in the market. When your concept succeeds then you will have the money to employ someone more expensive to do it right.

Change your expectation and you will then find the right person.

dmlevi
Thanks for the insight. We are working the IT department at UChicago so hopefully that will work out for us. We appreciate your input.
hoodoof
Universities are not the best source for finding juniors and graduates. Put a job ad on a major job board to find them.

Your next challenge is to be able to work out which of the many people who apply can get the job done.

Your primary mechanism for this, after shortlisting/initial interviews, is for each graduate to do a 1 day practical exercise to pull together a simple CRM app that allows creation and browsing of client details. They should have a week notice to prepare themselves for this before doing the test at your office.

You should pay them a straight salary, at the lowest end of the market. Forget anything complex and don't even talk about equity until they have proven themselves invaluable.

dmlevi
Monster.com? We never considered that route but It cant hurt to post. I like your thought process. We have a developer from Orbitz on board that will help translate the "simple CRM app" haha ;) but thank you. Do you know what a salary should be for low end market right now? $20hr?

After reading HN for 3 months, I got the feeling developers enjoyed working for an equity bonus. But then again if this is not a partner then that doesnt make sense. Very useful stuff, thanks for your time.

hoodoof
Post an article asking HN "what is the low end salary for a junior/graduate programmer in the U.S.".

How much seed money do you have? Do not pay per hour, pay a salary, assuming you have enough money. Ideally you will have enough to employ a low end graduate for 12 months. That is your runway. When that money is gone your startup is gone. Do not be tempted to spend one cent of the money allocated to the graduate salary on anything else.

hoodoof
>>>Very useful stuff, thanks for your time.

The price of the advice....... if you find someone using this approach then please do a "Tell HN:" post explaining how you used this approach to find the first developer for your startup.