2. When you live in a (-n imperfect) meritocracy, and you have no merit, you get left behind. Then suddenly a system where you get money and power and respect just because you're white and heterosexual and vaguely Christian suddenly starts looking pretty good.
It is demonstrably false that we are in a post class, post racial, and post gender/sex system. The populism we see in the west (more so on the right than left) is a rational reaction to a system that ignores anyone who is not a professional college educated elite.
I think we agree overall. The issue is who this "elite" is. And that's what no one wants to define.
I think you can do alright if you put some effort in. Maybe get a degree, maybe get a trade. Maybe start a business. It's not perfect, you'll (as you say) never actually break out of your class of birth. But the opportunity is there. In America, the UK, etc.
But people are lazy and short termism is built into humans. So a big chunk of people do nothing (don't get a degree, don't get a trade, don't start a business, don't take risks) and 20 years later they're working the same job in the same (now dying) business in the same (also dying) Town. And they want to blame someone. So it's all the Chinese/Jews/Immigrants/Democrats fault.
I understand your position; however, I think it comes from a position of privilege that both of us share. Do you would consider yourself a worldly person who can put themselves into other people's shoes? If you can, then consider this: the people are who left behind in culture, economy, and the political system do not want to be transient workers who move from one city to the next. That is a projecting cosmopolitan values and perspectives unto people who have decades and sometimes maybe centuries of history in their area. How would you feel to leave behind everyone you know and everything you are familiar with?
If you want to understand the rise of racism, look into the split labor market theory[1].
If you still believe that 70 million people (in the USA) are upset because they are lazy, stupid, trash and that these populists, like wizards, conjured up their latent virulent racism for their own power with no other possible explanation read: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/04/are-co...
The ticket into the elite professional class who controls the economy, government, and culture is a basic four year degree. It is becoming virtually impossible for working people to obtain that ticket. The working class only has numbers as its power.
The erosion of unions, mass-membership civic organizations, and the elitism of modern political parties has eliminated the voice of working people in the west. Political democracy is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a democratic society. The economy is increasingly controlled by oligarchs, for instance.
I'd rather leave my personal history out of it if that's ok, though I can share it it would convince anyone so best stick to wider measures. Fair?
Also, again, we agree a lot and I think that's worth remembering. I too decry loss of unions and civic orgs. I think we need a system that gives more opportunities and where the opportunities are of better quality.
But there are still 2 issues I feel we disagree on:
First, the 70m lazy people. To be clear, I didn't say they were all lazy, I said some were and some were short termist. I'd add that others were risk averse or unambitious. Why is this number not credible to you? There are 330m people in the US, so 21% of people being either lazy or short termist or risk averse etc actually sounds LOW to me. Maybe I am spending time with the wrong people?
Second, who are these elite? I keep hearing about them. But no one seems to know for sure what makes one elite? Right now it seems that we have 70m non elites complaining about 280m elites. How can the elite also be the majority? You can't be above average and in the majority, being elite and the (overwhelming) majority sounds far from possible.
Again, I don't disagree our society needs to improve. I support everything from a UBI to criminal justice reform to education. Now is a perfect time to go after China and that should even bring back jobs to some extent.
I just don't buy this ill defined "elite" concept as the root cause.
The root cause is 20-40 years of social progress and a minority of people choosing (however understandably) not to engage with the new (better) system. Sorry to be blunt about it.
The fact that its grievance politics doesn't mean the grievances are not real. It just means you have demagogues taking advantage of said grievances.
It's been said that riots are the voice of people who feel absolutely disempowered. I very much agree, and I think it applies equally well to BLM riots as it does to white working class people voting for Trump. Both are protesting a sense of total political disempowerment and being ignored and left behind, but in different ways.
My favorite quote from the 2016 election was along the lines of "I can't throw a Molotov cocktail through the window of the White House, but I can throw a Trump." A large number of avid Trump supporters viewed him as a human brick to throw through the window of what they view as an elite establishment that is absolutely dismissive of them.
America is classist and Plutocratic more than it is racist. Poor and working class urban blacks and poor and working class rural whites are both underclasses, and the fact that they are poor is more significant than their ethnicity. A wealthy black person, especially if they live in a top-tier city, is quite a bit "whiter" in America than a poor white person.
I completely disagree. If the Christchurch terrorist shares a manifesto, and I want to read it, I don't need holier-than-thou types "protecting" me from it. The whole point of a democracy is the optimistic belief that in general most people can be trusted to make decisions and behave decently in society. If anything other apps and services have a free speech problem.
Yes yes, we get it. Social media platforms where users can’t be tracked or censored easily are a threat to the status quo.
So you get articles like this talking about the horrors of an extremist ideology and loosely connecting it to a platform that isn’t been brought under heel yet like Telegram.
All part of the next push for censorship and removal of rights now that a sympathetic ear is in the White House (at least I think he can still hear).
Can I guess the next headline? “Extremist far right activists share gun schematics via encryption. Should we pass laws outlawing encryption and guns? I mean, for the Nazis only at first!”
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[ 0.20 ms ] story [ 35.2 ms ] threadWhen telegram, WhatsApp, Facebook, Google, tumblr, reddit, Instagram, and others have a nazi problem, then Humans have a nazi problem.
2. When you live in a (-n imperfect) meritocracy, and you have no merit, you get left behind. Then suddenly a system where you get money and power and respect just because you're white and heterosexual and vaguely Christian suddenly starts looking pretty good.
I think you can do alright if you put some effort in. Maybe get a degree, maybe get a trade. Maybe start a business. It's not perfect, you'll (as you say) never actually break out of your class of birth. But the opportunity is there. In America, the UK, etc.
But people are lazy and short termism is built into humans. So a big chunk of people do nothing (don't get a degree, don't get a trade, don't start a business, don't take risks) and 20 years later they're working the same job in the same (now dying) business in the same (also dying) Town. And they want to blame someone. So it's all the Chinese/Jews/Immigrants/Democrats fault.
Its grievance politics the same as Hitler.
If you want to understand the rise of racism, look into the split labor market theory[1].
If you still believe that 70 million people (in the USA) are upset because they are lazy, stupid, trash and that these populists, like wizards, conjured up their latent virulent racism for their own power with no other possible explanation read: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/04/are-co...
The ticket into the elite professional class who controls the economy, government, and culture is a basic four year degree. It is becoming virtually impossible for working people to obtain that ticket. The working class only has numbers as its power.
The erosion of unions, mass-membership civic organizations, and the elitism of modern political parties has eliminated the voice of working people in the west. Political democracy is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a democratic society. The economy is increasingly controlled by oligarchs, for instance.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_labor_market_theory
Also, again, we agree a lot and I think that's worth remembering. I too decry loss of unions and civic orgs. I think we need a system that gives more opportunities and where the opportunities are of better quality.
But there are still 2 issues I feel we disagree on:
First, the 70m lazy people. To be clear, I didn't say they were all lazy, I said some were and some were short termist. I'd add that others were risk averse or unambitious. Why is this number not credible to you? There are 330m people in the US, so 21% of people being either lazy or short termist or risk averse etc actually sounds LOW to me. Maybe I am spending time with the wrong people?
Second, who are these elite? I keep hearing about them. But no one seems to know for sure what makes one elite? Right now it seems that we have 70m non elites complaining about 280m elites. How can the elite also be the majority? You can't be above average and in the majority, being elite and the (overwhelming) majority sounds far from possible.
Again, I don't disagree our society needs to improve. I support everything from a UBI to criminal justice reform to education. Now is a perfect time to go after China and that should even bring back jobs to some extent.
I just don't buy this ill defined "elite" concept as the root cause.
The root cause is 20-40 years of social progress and a minority of people choosing (however understandably) not to engage with the new (better) system. Sorry to be blunt about it.
That, and people being bored.
It's been said that riots are the voice of people who feel absolutely disempowered. I very much agree, and I think it applies equally well to BLM riots as it does to white working class people voting for Trump. Both are protesting a sense of total political disempowerment and being ignored and left behind, but in different ways.
My favorite quote from the 2016 election was along the lines of "I can't throw a Molotov cocktail through the window of the White House, but I can throw a Trump." A large number of avid Trump supporters viewed him as a human brick to throw through the window of what they view as an elite establishment that is absolutely dismissive of them.
America is classist and Plutocratic more than it is racist. Poor and working class urban blacks and poor and working class rural whites are both underclasses, and the fact that they are poor is more significant than their ethnicity. A wealthy black person, especially if they live in a top-tier city, is quite a bit "whiter" in America than a poor white person.
So you get articles like this talking about the horrors of an extremist ideology and loosely connecting it to a platform that isn’t been brought under heel yet like Telegram.
All part of the next push for censorship and removal of rights now that a sympathetic ear is in the White House (at least I think he can still hear).
Can I guess the next headline? “Extremist far right activists share gun schematics via encryption. Should we pass laws outlawing encryption and guns? I mean, for the Nazis only at first!”