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Ask HN: How Does a Canadian SWE/Data Scientist Make a Move to the US?

17 points by rafiki6 ↗ HN
I've tried now and failed multiple times to make this move over my career. Primarily been interviewing with Tier 1 companies and not getting through, so I figure might make sense to try to get the attention of the Tier 2's to at least get into the market, but none have really reached out or accepted my applications.

Despite what the media wants you to think, Canada is not a good place to grow in IT and Software and ML. Best jobs here are being a part of a remote office for a FAANG or going to work for a Bank, or even just remote jobs for US companies since they'll pay you in USD which will mean you get an automatic 30% pay increase.

Pay is 2-3x less than the US, and CoL is about the same (especially if you want to buy something with a somewhat commutable distance to the major metros).

So my question to those who have successfully left later in their career (7-10 YOE), how did you manage it? What companies paid the most attention to you? What did your experience look like and how did you promote yourself if you weren't part of some hot startup like Shopify?

NOTE: I'm not here to argue the merits of the Canadian tech market. If you like it here, kudos to you and hope you find good growth opportunities.

38 comments

[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 88.8 ms ] thread
wikibob
Where are you getting stuck?

Getting hired, and hiring, is an acquisition funnel. Just like advertising through to making a sale.

Are you getting interviews? If not work on your resume, projects, and networking.

Are you not passing interviews? If so at what point in the process, phone screen, tech questions, or final offer?

Are companies saying no because you are in Canada? Target larger companies comfortable with the visa process.

growmn
What’s a tier 1 company ? Did they provide any feedback as to why you didn’t get through?

Some in FAANG are starting to hire remotely in Canada such as Facebook. You can try that.

oli5679
Would be interested if anyone has advice on this topic for UK --> USA
Schiendelman
When I read your first paragraph I immediately think there's a challenge in your interview, whether that's an interpersonal or language barrier, or difference between the skillset showcased on your resume and the skillset you show in an interview. When was the last time you did a practice interview? Do you have a coach?
jayparth
What's your resume look like and what stage of your career are you at? I moved over when I was 19 so happy to give my POV.
devlopr
It sounds like a VISA problem for the tier II or smaller companies.

If you focus on the bigger tier I companies, you are getting interviews so your resume works. You are failing the interview/coding test. Do you have insight into which? Are you getting second interviews? Does the process stop after the coding test?

cl42
Quick note on visas -- if you are eligible for a TN or O1 visa, then I've seen employees/candidates in Canada foot the bill and run the process themselves rather than ask the employer to do it. This is 100% doable and often helps HR departments (who have no idea what this process is, especially in smaller companies) deal with many objections.
rafiki6
Any particular strategies for making them aware of this? I find that if I submit a job application online, I will say I require a VISA (a TN in my case) and that produces less positive outcomes usually. So I've started to say I don't require a Visa which even if it leads to a conversation with HR, and I clarify my situation ends up resulting in an immediate rejection anyway.
cl42
Really big thought/strategy: try to avoid talking to HR, and find the hiring manager instead.

HR is a filter for applicants. They want to make the process easy and low-risk for the company, which is a critical part of the role... But the hiring manager needs to want you badly, to hire you... If the hiring manager is saying, "Hire rafiki6 at any cost, JUST DO IT" then HR will help you.

... but HR teams rarely go out of their way to promote a candidate aggressively to a hiring manager.

rafiki6
I do when I can. It's not easy to find the hiring manager for every role posted unless the hiring manager promotes the role themselves.
digianarchist
I offered to foot the bill for a transfer to the Us from Canada (US employer) and they still said no.
cl42
I've worked with a lot of folks who have made the move from Canada to the US in the middle part of their careers. Knowing nothing else about your situation, there are two things they did that might be relevant to you:

1. Really specific area of expertise that was needed by whoever was hiring them. "IT, software, ML" is very broad, but if you have a keen interest in data engineering for computer vision (random example), then you'll find people keen to talk to you. Try to narrow yourself into a high-demand niche.

2. Have a good "portfolio" of successful projects. I don't know your resume, but if you're stuck at getting to the formal interviews (i.e., getting screened out by automatic filters or recruiters), then you likely have a weak resume. This doesn't mean you need to work for a hot startup; work on side projects that stand out and show you can ship code/products.

Finally, a word of caution --- Tier 1 companies in the US are fantastic. Depending on how you define them, "Tier 2" companies have a huge range in terms of pay, quality, etc. and you might be in for a bad surprise. Make sure to do your due diligence on the company, the city, and the specific team you'd be working in.

Source: I run a data science careers site at https://phaseai.com/ -- feel free to reach out if you have questions.

rafiki6
Thank you this is the exact kind of information I'm looking for. Can I PM you?
cl42
My pleasure!!

Yup, or email us at hello@phaseai.com

weathawi
I also left for US mid career. I agree with what everyone is suggesting here.

1) A data scientist with data engineering skills is much more valuable to most companies. If you don't already have any, build a couple of data engineering & data science projects on your own, and note any engineering trade-offs for DE projects.

2) Learn about how interviewing works in US, especially at FAANG companies. Give yourself ample time on this task. Join US based online study groups, and this will also help you expand your network.

3) Network aggressively with tech people in US, and see if anyone you know can help you submit your resume to recruiters there.

Optional 4) Finally, the most straight-forward path that I'd recommend is to study at a US based DE, DS, ML, AI bootcamps, or fellowship program. But I can understand that you may feel like it's not a productive use of time since you're already a DS. Also, may not be a great option when you can't go to class in person in US.

In any case, steps 1-3 are definitely the most important for what you're trying to accomplish.

oangemangut
if getting to 2-3x pay by converting the USD->CAD then you have to convert the COL into CAD and it's much lower in Canada than the US. If you don't convert either then it's maybe just slightly cheaper in US, though in the markets where 2x non-converted comp exists, the COL is still probably higher.
rafiki6
You get 2-3x the pay without converting. The median salary for a senior in Toronto and Van right now is around 150-170 TC, and that is generally the type of salary you're getting from the FAANGS here. Some might push above 200k, but you need to be exceptional and do very well in the interview. There is a reason Canada's top grads leave to the US right away.

The CoL is lower in America. It might be comparable if you try to buy a house in Manhattan or the bay area, but the suburbs are good options and the commutes are no worse than GTA to Downtown or GVA to Downtown Van. There is a 46% premium on housing between Canada and the USA, adjusted for exchange. Also every day life can be generally cheaper (groceries, gas which is about half the cost, cell phone and internet service etc.).

The big differentiator between Canada and the US is social. Our socialized healthcare is subpar to the type of healthcare you get through the private plans you'll get working at big tech companies. Wait time are long, and governments don't pay for the most up to date procedures. I'm speaking first hand. Schools are the other big thing. Where you live in the US really determines the quality of education your kids receive, but if you're getting paid FAANG salaries you're fine.

Anyway, again, as my note mentioned, I'm not here to discuss the merits of the Canadian tech market. I only posted this to dispel the notion that the US is worse. It's not, and the supposed benefits in Canada objectively are not there. Subjectively they might be. Everyone is welcome to their opinion.

oangemangut
Yeah, I guess we're getting a bit off track, but go into a US grocery store in one of your target markets and the prices will not look different unless you convert, and then you'll see they are more expensive.

Daycare in the big tech centers, in areas with good schools, costs MORE than Vancouver/Toronto/Montreal before converting. Since we've be here for a family our experiences with healthcare haven't been that different than Canada (normal checkups, 1 delivery in Canada 1 delivery in US), except that we've paid 5-10K per year in out of pocket + another 5K in premiums per year.

Finally - if you go gown on TN, if you have a partner that's coming with you they can't work. And it's a long and annoying slog going from TN -> H1B -> GC. Just food for thought.

Anyways, when you're talking about tier 2/3 companies (especially non-tech) you're not making 300USD+ in US either, especially in secondary markets.

As someone who moved to Bay area to 'tier 2'company, initially as in SWE but now in MLE, the big benefits are the depth of the job market: it's not hard to find a high(ish) TC gig around here, and you can easily shift to another US tech center (which doesn't seem to happen as much in Canada) and the increased savings rate of converted CAD dollars we'll use in Victoria when we return.

rafiki6
Yes I've researched all this. My partner is TN eligible as well. And yes, dollar figure costs are same, that's exactly my point. CoL from a magnitude is the same when exchange is excluded, but salaries are higher and more opportunities. I exclude exchange because I would earn USD in America. And yes, this is why I'm targeting Tier 2 companies. If CoL is the same when thinking dollar figure, if I got to bay area and earn 170-200k (lower end for senior), and eventually make shift to areas with lower CoL overall and lower salary, fine so be it. Maybe I'll find my way into a Tier 1 eventually with enough Leetcoding. Point is the market is so much bigger in the US and so many more livable metros than Canada.

Also on the note of daycare, unless you manage to get into subsidized daycare (impossible essentially), you're paying 2k minimum a month.

And as for healthcare, the best deal is living in low or no income tax state. That is the ultimate goal long term. Even Cali vs. Ontario or Van, taxes overall a bit lower. At least the premiums you pay for get you high quality superior healthcare.

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aprdm
I do not think 170k USD in SF is better than 170k CAD in VAN/TORONTO.

170k CAD in VAN/TORONTO isn't impossible to make for seniors.

oangemangut
In bay we paid roughly 60K USD for an infant and a toddler, and had them in different daycares for a while due to waitlists.

In Vancouver it would have been in the 40s, CAD.

growmn
Careful about the notion that you make 170-200k

Check levels.FYI

theflyinghorse
> The median salary for a senior in Toronto and Van right now is around 150-170 TC

Recently interviewed with a couple of startups from Toronto. 95-110k seems to be the offer range (6 yoe dev Java, node, react). I wasn't aware that anyone could make above 120k in Canada as a tech IC.

wikibob
This is wrong. The pay is vastly higher, accounting for cost of living differences.

Levels.fyi

fundamental
Best of luck. Even applying from within the US to Data Scientist roles takes quite a while to get through. At least compared to a few years ago organizations are providing rejections rather than simply ghosting.
rafiki6
Yes, I think the DS market in general got hit since it's a nice to have for most companies, or most companies have no idea what their DS groups do anyway and were just jumping in on the hype. Also there is a glut of talent from bootcamps and cert programs because every newspaper posted an article in the last 5-10 years about how Data Science is the hot new career where you get a six figure salary for showing up. This industry is going through it's growing pains and I'm finding a lot of DS positions are slowly transforming into ML Engineering, Data Engineering, or Analyst roles, especially as ML gets more commoditized with higher level frameworks like HuggingFace coming about. I think I've narrowed my search towards ML engineering.
fundamental
Organizations defining their roles is certainly a challenge. Quite a few roles don't know what their focus is and other roles constrain their search to the point that the job requirements are practically a circular dependency. I'm on the research side of the equation which falls under the data science umbrella which is partially covered by ML engineer, but not fully IMO. Personally, working with data there's a ton of older EE derived DSP+image processing ideas which are great but the recruitment process overlooks with how the roles get built. Having the solid math background is something that seems lacking from anyone exposed only to very high level frameworks or bootcamps.
core-questions
> Despite what the media wants you to think, Canada is not a good place to grow in IT and Software and ML.

There's more to life than money, friend. Cost of living is not the only metric for quality of life. Safety, unity, sanity, these are all things Canadian cities have over the majority of American cities.

I hope the increase in pay is worth it to you. For some of us, this is more than just a place to live and "grow in IT", it's a place we come from and build our lives in. From this perspective, your words are denigrating; no matter, those who seek their fortune down south are seldom missed for long.

rafiki6
Thanks for your thoughts but this isn't a helpful post. You're welcome to stay in Canada if you feel there are non monetary benefits you would prefer over a higher salary or more career growth.

I think that paying 50% of household income to cover basic shelter is absolutely absurd and a bad deal. It's financially impossible to start a family in a major metro here, and I'm a higher income earner. IMO that negatively impacts my quality of life substantially.

Beyond this, as much as Canada likes to bill it self as friendly and multicultural and paint the US as racist and mean, my personal experience has been quite different. Here I have witnessed the worst forms of racial nepotism I've ever seen. Entire teams of the same ethnicities all speaking the same language. I was hired into a team like this and was regularly excluded from lunches the team took to celebrate cultural holidays. Sorry, racism is racism.

core-questions
> It's financially impossible to start a family in a major metro here

This is a pernicious lie. What is impossible is maintaining a full hedonistic lifestyle with zero compromise while trying to have a family. You will have to sacrifice for them - but any good parent does anyway.

> Here I have witnessed the worst forms of racial nepotism I've ever seen. Entire teams of the same ethnicities all speaking the same language.

This is indeed a problem, but it is a problem you may not point at. QA teams seem to be particularly laden with this issue. Is this really not a thing in the states?

penguinlinux
Hi, I think you should not try to sell yourself as a Data Scientist. I have worked for many startups and in the past they felt they needed to hire a data scientist, however many of them are expected to be able to do data engineering/ devops. Automation with AWS/ Azure in addition to running their analytic workloads in whatever the latest and greatest is at the moment. Eventually the companies do not see value on that role and i have seen those rolls being chopped. If you know data engineering and manage full analytic pipelines in aws, and automation with terraform , cloudformation that will open up the doors for many roles. Hope that might give you some idea on how to market yourself here :)
fundamental
Anecdotal experience from someone reading through a lot of DS job postings. There are plenty of roles which present red flags of them being something which would morph into something akin to devops/general-analytics. It seems common for roles to require wearing a few hats including data engineering in order to get work done (I consider that 100% normal unless you're targeting a large+mature organization), but so far getting an idea of the general direction of a role seems not too challenging.
growmn
Fwiw, I have been in the industry since 2008. I started in Canada. Have been living in the Bay Area for the last 5 yrs working for a FAANG company.

Am moving back to Canada this summer. The math for us (family of five) does not work in terms of ability to buy a house without spending an insane amount of time commuting

trykondev
Canadian here who works in US tech -- not sure I have any general advice that would be helpful but with some more context about your specific skillset & situation I might be able to help. Feel free to reach out (email in my profile).
anontn
I'm a Canadian SWE who moved to the US in 2017. I was in my mid 30's at the time. I can't tell you how you can do it, but I can say how I did it.

I ended up getting a job offer via Triplebyte. The good thing with them is that they don't consider Canadians as needing a visa. They provided the lawyer assistance for arranging the TN visa documents. This may have changed. Triplebyte is much different than they were a few years ago.

Also, that year I had attended Pycon and got a lot of introductions to companies at their hiring event. When I was looking to make the move, I must have had 8 onsite interviews. I failed every one of them except the place that hired me.

This is because the interview process is much different compared to what I had in Canada. In Canada, it was basically a crapshoot. I never had any idea what to expect. Usually I just talked about some of my past projects and maybe had some easy programming question. US companies are more structured. You're usually gonna have around 2 coding rounds, 1 system design and 1 behavioural. You may think "I have 10 years of experience so I don't need to really prepare." I'm sorry but that would be wrong. You need to prepare more because a lot of the types of coding questions you get asked are things you rarely encounter on the job so your experience isn't going to help you for interviews much (except the behavioural and maybe partly the system design). You can complain about it but it won't help you achieve your goal.

I wanted to switch jobs again this year and I didn't want to have the same experience last time of failing so many onsites so this time I signed up for an interview prep program. There's a few available but I went with Interview Kickstart. It was 6 months of preparation but it was the first time in my life where I felt fully confident going into interviews. I knew what to expect so I didn't feel nervous and I had practiced mock interviews to get feedback and make adjustments. I've had 4 onsites with results so far and received interest from all of them for offers.

Completely agree with you about the career growth opportunities in the US. It's a major career regret of mine that I didn't move sooner. For specifics, when I left Canada I was making $90k CAD. I felt I was pretty close to the ceiling (not living in Toronto or Vancouver). The first US job doubled that but in USD and now these new offers have doubled that again. Plus the work is way more interesting and challenging.