So many sad points about this story: the shockingly low price he got ($3,400), the culture of consumption that people usually associate with the US but is prevalent in China and other countries (my colleagues tell me that it's common to see people with phones that costs 1.5x - 2x their salary) and the fact that the hospital performed such an operation (one more data point on the anything-goes attitude in China).
On a different note, this brings forth interesting questions about establishing free markets for human organs. Proponents say that this would be a win-win situation. Stories like this show that such a thing would need very tight regulation.
Apple should send this kid one of all their new devices.
I like most of your post a lot, and upvoted it. But under no cicumstances should apple send this kid stuff. It would be publicized and there might be copy cats. "Sell your organs. Get money + shiny Apple objects!"
I debated with myself about posting this, because the copy cat concern kind of sounds like FUD when I read it back to myself. But then again, I just read a story about a kid selling one of his organs for an Apple product, which sure sounds like a sensationalist what if scenario. It's always a little depressing when what sounds like FUD is perfectly true.
The situation in Foxconn got so bad last year was partly because at first Foxconn compensated the suicide victims' relatives rather substantial amount of money, then copycat jumpers became epidemic.
The kid sold his kidney for $3000, a MacBook Pro 17" can easily command $3000. That's dangerously close to enough incentive.
The fact that one kid got a macbook pro's worth of money by selling a kidney by not being cautious (he was surely not aware of the consequences on his future life) doesn't mean that there will be an epidemic of kids with the guts or lack of wisdom to do something like this. A good thing, no doubt.
I struggle to see a great incentive with I put $3k on a scale vs health issues, a major surgery, etc. I like to think kids are generally smarter than this one was.
You just don't get it, do you. $3400 is A LOT of money for some poor inland kid from rural area in China. His family may never see such amount of money before in their life. People are really bad at dealing with astronomical numbers. Sadly to some boy in China, ￥22,000 is an astronomical number.
I'm Chinese, some of us are getting richer by the day，some of us are obscenely wealthy, most of us are still poor, and then there are young kids in China willing to jump off a roof so that their family will get some $100.000 as compensate.
$3400 is only A LOT of money in a poor rural area if it is spent on local, non-traded goods: the consumption value of an iPad 2 is roughly the same in rural China and in NYC. If anything, it may be far lower in the poorer country due to lack of complementing infrastructure.
It actually makes me think that the iPad 2 part of the story may be entirely fictional: perhaps the kid made it up in order to seek publicity and attention.
You are right, iPad is practically useless without WiFi. Still iPad/iPhone are just THE ITEMS to have in China. People in Asia are capable of crazy things for shiny gadgets they can wipe out and show off. Don't underestimate the lust. Especially in a case I think we can both agree is not rational to begin with.
Seems like your classic win-lose situation to me. The rich get their organs faster, the poor die when their one remaining kidney fails because they can't afford market rates.
the poor die when their one remaining kidney fails because they can't afford market rates.
Yeah, but weigh up the chances of that (most people don't get kidney failure in their life) versus the extra opportunities that you get from the money. If you're dirt poor in China, $3400 might be just what you need to get yourself started in life and catapult yourself up into the middle class.
Buying an iPad still seems like dubious value, but... hopefully he did something better with the rest of it. And I guess if you don't have any other computer then an iPad just might be worth 20% of one of your kidneys if you can use it to educate yourself or start a business.
Sure if you have a great business idea that needs bootstrapping, that money is precious...but $3400 for a poor chinese citizen is like giving an american maybe $50k at best...that kind of money is really great for a year or two but probably gone within 5-10 years unless you have some really great ideas for it. And then you still have no kidney.
From everything I've read kidney donation isn't that bad. As has been pointed out, most people don't have Kidney problems and having a single kidney doesn't increase your odds of having problems that much. If I could get $50k legally for donating a kidney, and if I could get a kidney for $50k in the unlikely event that something went wrong, I would certainly be willing to go through with it.
The cost paid by the buyer would undoubtably be much higher than the compensation you receive as a "donor", think about all the middlemen, doctors, nurses, etc that need to get their share. If the donor is getting $3400 the buyer is probably paying 15K at least.
Right, the cost of surgery would probably dominate the cost of receiving a kidney transplant. But that's really what health insurance is for. I guess I should have said "if other people were selling kidney's", the exact price doesn't matter very much.
But if I were dirt poor in China, and I really did think that $3400 would be enough to give me the kick start to lift myself permanently out of poverty, I'd do it.
I suppose the real problem is that there's some minimum rational price for which it's sensible to sell a kidney... and a bunch of irrational people who are willing to sell their kidneys for less than that. So none of the rational people will ever get a look in, and a legalised kidney trade would only lead to misery rather than good deals.
Surely in a well-functioning economy/society one should be able to achieve that with enterprise and hard work alone. Why not an eye, hand, or lung? After all, you can probably get by with only one.
If people have to pay for their own health care then obviously the rich are going to get better care in general. If you have public health care and kidney selling then presumably the government is buying kidneys for anybody who needs one.
Stories like this show that such a thing would need very tight regulation.
Like what? Kids need a parent's permission to donate their kidney? I don't think you'll get much argument about that.
Also, keep in mind that someone's life was saved here. Someone about whom we can't make very many assumptions based on what we know.
That's the catch with the whole organ selling debate: however horrifying you find the seller's story, you have to compare it with the buyer's, or rather the would-be buyers who die on the waiting list.
I am actually up for a free market for organs, because of the precise reasons that you cite, provided that there are some safeguards. The hospitals should provide services that talk about the health risks involved and psychological counseling. I bet, if this kid got a 30 minute talk about the relative importance of the iPad2 vs the kidney, he would have changed his decision. Then again, some are so poor that they do need the money for their families, so these should get the maximum rate.
This are a lot of ethical, economical, and operational questions related to this. Doesn't mean that it should be banned, though.
It's horrifying because a young boy, with many years left in his life, in all likelihood gave one of his organs to someone who's probably got 10-15 years left tops.
"On a different note, this brings forth interesting questions about establishing free markets for human organs. Proponents say that this would be a win-win situation. Stories like this show that such a thing would need very tight regulation."
If the market was free he would get paid more, all the risks associated with getting caught, limited access to information and extra barriers to entry push up what percent the "transplant agents" and reduce what the donor gets.
Not to mention the dead weight loss that we would get after regulating when there's people willing to sell and people willing to purchase.
And I don't see why Chinese people having a different indifference curve aka consumption preferences than Americans or some other country is a bad thing. If that's what makes them happy let them spend their money the way they want to.
Note that people spending a big portion of salary on phones, designer clothes etc. is not exclusive to China, rich Asian countries like HK, Japan, Taiwan, Korea and few more have the same thing. Simply a different culture.
In Thailand it is not uncommon for people to have payment plans for their phones. In the US where phones are subsidized by the carriers, you can pay for it pretty easily. But when an unlocked phone costs 1.5-2x their salary like you mentioned, people who have to have the latest phones and gadgets live beyond their means.
By that Apple would subsidise a dangerous/unhealthy compulsive desire from the sounds of it. If they wanted to do Good, they "should" rather finance some therapy about life values to that kid.
Another sad thing is the way Chinese refuse to allow organs to be donated the normal way.
For various reasons (religion, traditions, mistrust of hospitals) China has virtually no willing organ donors. The numbers get made up from executed prisoners, or even less legitimate sources.
I honestly think this is bullshit. A kidney is completely useless for transplantation unless its compatibility markers match those of the receiver and there is no use in fishing kidneys randomly among Chinese apple fans.
Don't they use off-duty doctors or assistants (or even someone who just learned it from someone else) and just use available space, e.g., strip mall offices? If you're buying trafficked organs, you'll often find other ways to get them transplanted.
Did you just base your rebuttal on the idea that there's no way someone could, say, buy a kidney and find the right buyer post-factum? It's not like there's no market for kidneys, sadly.
The story on the page you link to does not even add up. The title says that he sold his kidney for an iPad2, but later it says "he returned home with a laptop and an iPhone". So what did he buy?
I was born in China, and I feel a bit sad for the boy. He is 17, same age as mine. I'm surprised that his decision was so immature that he didn't consider about his future life.
Poor people in China are definitely more likely to rely on dialysis once their kidneys fail. Giving up one kidney increases the chances of complete kidney failure by about 100%. This basically means that if the boy can't get out of the poverty cycle, there's no rational reason to do this.
iPad 2 is just a device with virtually no value for the future of one's life. If he instead sells kidney to pay for his education, I think I will understand. But giving up health in exchange of gadgets, in my opinion, is just crazy.
There's nothing that Apple can do to help. And market regulation cannot prevent this anyway (the boy would do something else equally crazy). It's just a sad story caused these factors:
- He knows about iPad 2 (maybe because his friends are showing off)
- His family cannot afford (poverty cycle)
- He didn't work to earn money (poor education, not enough opportunities)
- He sold his kidney (immature decision, ultimately caused by education)
If we can prevent any of these factors from happening, this story wouldn't be here.
* - He didn't work to earn money (poor education, not enough opportunities) *
Is unskilled/semiskilled labor paid that badly?
Also, what value is an iPad 2? It is a simple gadget compared to an 'unlocked' computer. Like you, I might understand if he sold kidney for education.... an iPad2 will be worthless in 8 years.
My Dad donated a kidney a few years back, and the hospital (UNC) made him undergo nearly a year of psych evals before they would do the surgery. At the time it seemed excessive, today I'm thankful for their caution.
48 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 104 ms ] threadOn a different note, this brings forth interesting questions about establishing free markets for human organs. Proponents say that this would be a win-win situation. Stories like this show that such a thing would need very tight regulation.
Apple should send this kid one of all their new devices.
I debated with myself about posting this, because the copy cat concern kind of sounds like FUD when I read it back to myself. But then again, I just read a story about a kid selling one of his organs for an Apple product, which sure sounds like a sensationalist what if scenario. It's always a little depressing when what sounds like FUD is perfectly true.
*edited many times to get the wording better.
The situation in Foxconn got so bad last year was partly because at first Foxconn compensated the suicide victims' relatives rather substantial amount of money, then copycat jumpers became epidemic.
The kid sold his kidney for $3000, a MacBook Pro 17" can easily command $3000. That's dangerously close to enough incentive.
I struggle to see a great incentive with I put $3k on a scale vs health issues, a major surgery, etc. I like to think kids are generally smarter than this one was.
I'm Chinese, some of us are getting richer by the day，some of us are obscenely wealthy, most of us are still poor, and then there are young kids in China willing to jump off a roof so that their family will get some $100.000 as compensate.
It actually makes me think that the iPad 2 part of the story may be entirely fictional: perhaps the kid made it up in order to seek publicity and attention.
But some will, and it would be tragic.
Also internet cafe and school both provide web access.
Yeah, but weigh up the chances of that (most people don't get kidney failure in their life) versus the extra opportunities that you get from the money. If you're dirt poor in China, $3400 might be just what you need to get yourself started in life and catapult yourself up into the middle class.
Buying an iPad still seems like dubious value, but... hopefully he did something better with the rest of it. And I guess if you don't have any other computer then an iPad just might be worth 20% of one of your kidneys if you can use it to educate yourself or start a business.
But if I were dirt poor in China, and I really did think that $3400 would be enough to give me the kick start to lift myself permanently out of poverty, I'd do it.
I suppose the real problem is that there's some minimum rational price for which it's sensible to sell a kidney... and a bunch of irrational people who are willing to sell their kidneys for less than that. So none of the rational people will ever get a look in, and a legalised kidney trade would only lead to misery rather than good deals.
This is still a terrible idea.
Like what? Kids need a parent's permission to donate their kidney? I don't think you'll get much argument about that.
Also, keep in mind that someone's life was saved here. Someone about whom we can't make very many assumptions based on what we know.
That's the catch with the whole organ selling debate: however horrifying you find the seller's story, you have to compare it with the buyer's, or rather the would-be buyers who die on the waiting list.
This are a lot of ethical, economical, and operational questions related to this. Doesn't mean that it should be banned, though.
If the market was free he would get paid more, all the risks associated with getting caught, limited access to information and extra barriers to entry push up what percent the "transplant agents" and reduce what the donor gets.
Not to mention the dead weight loss that we would get after regulating when there's people willing to sell and people willing to purchase.
And I don't see why Chinese people having a different indifference curve aka consumption preferences than Americans or some other country is a bad thing. If that's what makes them happy let them spend their money the way they want to. Note that people spending a big portion of salary on phones, designer clothes etc. is not exclusive to China, rich Asian countries like HK, Japan, Taiwan, Korea and few more have the same thing. Simply a different culture.
I think you're missing the horror here.
The culture of consumption is alive and well.
For various reasons (religion, traditions, mistrust of hospitals) China has virtually no willing organ donors. The numbers get made up from executed prisoners, or even less legitimate sources.
I honestly think this is bullshit. A kidney is completely useless for transplantation unless its compatibility markers match those of the receiver and there is no use in fishing kidneys randomly among Chinese apple fans.
It's a little dated (2004), but this certainly isn't the first time I've heard a mainstream news source report on organ trafficking.
Do you believe the whole organ trafficking thing is fake, or just this story?
Poor people in China are definitely more likely to rely on dialysis once their kidneys fail. Giving up one kidney increases the chances of complete kidney failure by about 100%. This basically means that if the boy can't get out of the poverty cycle, there's no rational reason to do this.
iPad 2 is just a device with virtually no value for the future of one's life. If he instead sells kidney to pay for his education, I think I will understand. But giving up health in exchange of gadgets, in my opinion, is just crazy.
There's nothing that Apple can do to help. And market regulation cannot prevent this anyway (the boy would do something else equally crazy). It's just a sad story caused these factors:
- He knows about iPad 2 (maybe because his friends are showing off)
- His family cannot afford (poverty cycle)
- He didn't work to earn money (poor education, not enough opportunities)
- He sold his kidney (immature decision, ultimately caused by education)
If we can prevent any of these factors from happening, this story wouldn't be here.
Is unskilled/semiskilled labor paid that badly?
Also, what value is an iPad 2? It is a simple gadget compared to an 'unlocked' computer. Like you, I might understand if he sold kidney for education.... an iPad2 will be worthless in 8 years.
And I'm sure it's still open for business...