I've always wanted to ask an audiologist whether "active noise cancelling" type technologies actually pose an auditory risk. They kind of have to emit the same amplitude-at-the-ear of audio of what they're cancelling out, right? And sure, most of the time the waves cancel, but maybe the algorithm gets it wrong a couple milliseconds at a time and - while possibly not perceptible - are those high peaks of audio-cancelling-sound damaging?
These "peaks" should all be within what you are able to hear, because there's no reason for having the headset produce cancelling waves with supersonic frequencies.
If you want to worry about sudden sounds, there are probably more dangerous sources of them out there.
That's only the produced sound, right? If the produced sound is at a frequency that coincides with the original sound (as opposed to being half a wavelength off), wouldn't it amplify the sound and make it up to 2x? Apologies if I misunderstood your comment.
I am not an audiologist... but I don’t think it would result in 2x the sound. I believe a sound originating from 2 sources with the same amplitude results in either phase cancellation or the same resulting amplitude, not 2x. This is similar to what happens with line arrays.
You are thinking about the volume. As another replier said, two interfering frequencies produce an interference wave equal to their difference, so you can't have supersonic waves from something only capable of producing 20kHz sound
This is anecdotal but I do feel a sense of pressure when using the Bose QC35. This pressure lasts for 30-60m when I’ve used them all day. I also have my ears popping after using them.
I too feel it.
Then again it might make sense that even if we don't hear it, the pressure is still there. As conservation of energy. After all active noise cancelling is destructive interference. Which has funny meaning that the energy is actually doubled. As we produce noise of equal power but opposite phase. Now does the energy end up in your ear or the headphone or outside? Or is it divided between these.
The energy is dissipated as heat in the speaker coils. Energy is removed from the air. Think of it as using brakes to slow down a car. Yes, energy is consumed to do so (that's why the rotors get hot), but the car doesn't have 'hidden' energy, just because it was both accelerated, then decelerated. It really is at rest. The energy it embodied while in motion has been converted into other forms.
This is one the most popular topics in the Sony vs Bose war. For reasons I haven’t seen any explanation for, Sony headphones have much less of that vacuum feeling.
Unless the active noise cancelling gets it spectacularly wrong, the high peaks won’t be higher than the peaks in the to-be-cancelled noise.
So, you’d have to argue that short, sudden peaks are more damaging than continuous sounds. There is adaptation to sound volume (https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1906477), but I think you’d need more than that.
The thing is, noise cancelling is a very simple physical process. If it "miss" you will ear it. So there is no invisible danger, it cannot be not perceptible, either it cancel, or it add to the noise. The worst that ANC can do is add noise to the noise. Plus, most ANC focus on low frequency sound since they are the easiest one to cancel.
Of course not. If your driver is trying to cancel 95dB and creating a harmonic then that harmonic has 100 000 times more energy than the same harmonic when playing at 80dB without noise cancelation.
> If it "miss" you will ear it. So there is no invisible danger, it cannot be not perceptible
not always true. Minor phase mismatch will create higher frequency sound. You wouldn't hear ultrasound, though how bad it is to have an ultrasound source in you ears i don't know.
The phase mismatch can be temporal - circuitry reacting either a bit too fast or too slow - as well as spatial - the sound wave front most probably aren't parallel to the speakers frontal plane.
A noise-cancelling system can be designed to filter out and not produce high-frequency sound, to not worsen the problem. I'm not sure if properly designed noise cancelling can produce increased pressures felt by any parts of the eardrum or ear canal or outer ear.
What is the mechanism for this? From what I remember of signal processing, linear combination of waves of a specific frequency can only result in a combined signal of the same frequency but different phase and amplitude.
It's not just phase mismatch. There is error in the frequency domain, both from the digital processing going on and the physical characteristics of the driver.
If you're trying to cancel out a loud 100dB+ environment, that means the driver needs to be blasting at at least 100dB.
Any harmonic distortion in the headphones will be introduced relative this, as well as being in the higher frequencies where it's less noticable, but still may cause hearing loss.
I've used ANC IEMs instead of proper hearing protection around loud machinery before and although it may have felt quieter, my ears still "rang" afterwards so I was causing permanent hearing damage. People who think ANC "sounds quieter" and use it instead of proper hearing protection (or just turn the music too loud) will definitely suffer hearing loss, though not directly because of the ANC.
I am not an audiologist, but an interesting similar issue happens with our eyes. If you wear tinted lenses with no UV filter, your body will be happy that it looks darker, and open your iris more. Now since your iris is open more, you actually cause more UV damage to your eye without noticing.
I remember this being a big story when polarized 3D movie glasses came out and people were keeping them on outdoors.
i dont think it's feasible to cancel out such loud noise using just ANC. A sealed, airtight headset (or those tight earplugs) would have to be used. If you're using ANC for such loud noises, you'd still hear the noise through your bones/face imho. For example, if a car beeped its horn at you while using ANC, i hear it.
ANC is merely for constant low background noise like airplane engine.
ANC doesn't ever provide perfect isolation. If you see advertisements ANC it will say "blocks 99% of sound" or "cancels 99.9% of noise" which is equivalent to a 20dB and 30dB drop respectively.
You're right though that it doesn't work as well at high volumes. The louder the noise, the more distortion in the microphone/amplifier/driver, so the efficacy of the noise cancelling is reduced. For example in this THD graph of the AirPod Pro's, at 100dB it adds approximately 3dB compare to the 90dBtest.[1] Going much louder and you'll start getting digital clippings as the built in amplifier won't have enough range.
> . For example, if a car beeped its horn at you while using ANC, i hear it.
Car horns are above 100dB, and at the frequency they are, APD only measures about 20dB of attenuation [2], so that only brings it down to 80dB, which is still very loud.
> ANC is merely for constant low background noise like airplane engine.
What I find very neat is that even though only 20-30dB of isolation is measured, many noises really do "go away". If you play around with ANC you'll realize that as the background noise gets louder, the white noise hiss from the ear piece gets louder. This mostly the result of error in the system, but this increase in background noise has the effect of masking any external sounds that make it through. I believe it also moves a lot of that energy to higher frequencies where you don't notice it.
Ten years ago I was interested in buying Bose noise cancelling headphones. Someone warned me that they had read somewhere on the internet that noise cancelling creates problems with your hearing.
At the time I couldn’t find anything on Google about this, but I still bought the headphones anyway.
Using the headphones the lingering thought of that statement bothered me. Using the headphones something didn’t feel right.
Flash forward to now, people are talking about this so I can’t find relevant info on this without the well (Google) being poisoned by armchair doctors.
I still feel noise cancelling is not healthy for ears.
There is a running conspiracy theory that manufacturers found out about possible damage around 2018, and coincidentally all the popular models like the Sony WH1000 got firmware upgrades that perceivably downgraded the quality of ANC. I have a model from 2016 and can easily tell the difference from a newer one, now if that is the real reason or not... we’ll find out in the coming decade.
I have a pair of those. I really like them except that they don't quite fit my ears and wearing them for more than a couple hours causes some soreness. If it weren't for that I'd probably wear them all the time. So, maybe that ended up saving me in the end.
Yes they cause a number of problems. I experience nasty sinus headaches after prolonged use in loud environments (where the speaker driver is having to match the high amplitude of external noise).
Mistakes in the cancelling might make peaks outside of human audible ranges that cause problems? I'm speculating here but wondering if anyone is looking into this.
I find active cancelling headphones to be very unpleasant. I've switched to custom molded in-ear monitors which do an even better job of eliminating external sound (musicians wear them on-stage to protect their hearing), sound better, and don't bother me the way active cancelling earphones do.
I have no idea if active headphones are "bad", just that they make me feel very uneasy.
The downside is that Custom In Ear Monitors are pricy (> $1000). When you have them made, you can often choose how many db of ambient sound attenuation you want.
This was what I wondered too. When I’m using good ANC, I can hear my body really well. It’s like when you go under water and suddenly hear those sounds instead of terrestrial sounds - ANC is like going in my body rather than under water, though.
For me at least (Bose QC35) I hear the ringing after I take them off, not while they're on. They're good, but not that good. My ears ring the most at night.
I’ve had tinnitus my entire life and think my case is genetic. There was a brief period in my life where I started reading about it and got pretty stressed I could hear it while trying to sleep. That compounded in on itself and it had me worried for a while. Eventually started meditating, stopped really caring, and never think about it anymore. Every now and then I’ll hear it, but I can focus on my breathing and just get back to life. If I focus, sure, it’s always there, but why bother?
From what I understand some people can get very loud cases. I’m not sure how I’d deal with that.
Daily user of airpods for years, and no changes to my tinnitus.
Same here. I think I have it as long as I can remember. At a few points in my life it was slightly "noisier" but I think it was some kind of ear infection (once confirmed) or debris. In a very quiet room I would hear it, and if I investigate online I only get very anxious. It might be related to sinus issues I also have.
But what helped me with those other issues (like itchy ears) is to listen to my doctor (no pun intended) to "forget" I have ears. Only wash the outer most part of the ear and leave it to do it's part. Wax, although unappealing, is nothing bad and is actually protective. I cleanse it with a hydrogen and olive oil spray mixture from the pharmacy every few months.
The thread doesn't mention "Pro" (I think they had only been out a month when the thread was created).
A lot of the discussion here seems to be around the Pro and Max's ANC. So I imagine it's a similar, but different concern.
Personally, when I upgraded from AirPods to the Pros my average volume I used dropped drastically. I got this info from Apple Health which tracks and warns of consistent high volumes.
Other earplugs could have the same issue, but cases are distributed over a wider range of distinct support cases.
Maybe this isn't down to something obvious with the audible sounds, but interference, or amplification of some other thing the Airpods radiate. See old mattresses picking up radio signals.
Maybe it's a hit-piece on the Apple stock.
Maybe this is just numbers and chance.
I wouldn't straight dismiss it, since it's not exactly unbelievable and Apple has a history of delivering innovation without paying due diligence to/testing the not UI details.
There aren't actually 600+ reports in here, as the headline (currently) suggests. It appears over 600 people have pressed the "I have this question, too" button, but the number of people posting reports is much smaller.
Keep in mind that Apple sells a massive number of AirPods. On the order of 100,000,000 units per year. The prevalence of tinnitus is estimated to be in the range of 10% of the population.
It's also possible to impact earwax against the eardrum when inserting anything into your ear, Airpods or otherwise. Earwax compacted against the ear can worsen or modulate tinnitus. That would be my most likely explanation for any sudden-onset tinnitus following earbud use.
The massive volume of Airpods sold multiplied by the high number of hours used by each customer should surface these issues quickly due to scale alone.
600 out of 200,000,000-300,000,000 units sold is a reported incidence of around 0.0002%.
It's possible that earbud usage has some negative effects in certain people due to earwax impaction or changing pressure in the inner ear, but Apple may be getting the blame because they're the only vendor operating with such large market share.
Tho, you don't compare it to the absolute number of units sold, but to the typical engagement in the support forum. How many people would even make the connection between Airpods and tinnitus? Same with the dead M1 macbooks and USB-C hubs. I agree the "600" isn't exactly science, but your argument isn't either.
Even so, I find it hard to outright dismiss claims of earbuds causing damage.
Tinnitus can be a lifelong condition and deserves investigation.
It already seems like a platitude to tell folks not to listen at peak volume for extended periods of time. It'd be interesting to see if there are common behaviors, such as use at max volume, reported amongst those affected.
In general, wouldn't listening to any headphone/earphone at a very high volume (which happens very often when you're listening in a loud environment like in the subway) eventually cause tinnitus? I know on android there's actually a specific warning about this if you go above a certain volume. What specifically about AirPods would cause this that other earbuds wouldn't?
It takes a lot more than just that to really isolate. I use Remote Audio HN-7506: physical mass plays a part. Those are heavy, have gel earcups that are physically solid and bulky, and clamp really hard on your head. Earbuds aren't physically big enough and can't produce a rigid enough seal to compare… at least not AirPod style ones.
I've not worked with rigid, custom-molded in-ears. Something like that might be enough of a barrier, but remember if sound waves can physically move the earphone against the seal, that's going to be sound leakage. The Remote Audio cans aren't designed for comfort, they're designed to control sound pressures that'd instantly wreck your eardrums, like high-caliber nearby gunfire for extended periods. The headphone drivers are literally an afterthought, added by a separate company if I remember correctly.
It dampens the sound of the train, but people generally end up boosting the volume of the music to the highest level it goes on the phone, and that can cause issues long term. Blocking one sound doesn't help anything if you're replacing it with an equally (if not more) loud sound.
Maybe, if the noise from outside the earbuds is loud enough, and the earbuds are blocking at least some of that. But even if the earbuds block some of the outside noise, some of it is still going to get through, and that makes hearing the music harder and makes people want to crank up the music volume.
Absolutely. Pete Townshend's deaf in one ear and has severe tinnitus, and he doesn't blame Marshall stacks (or even the still louder Hiwatt amps he actually used), he blames headphones in the studio.
It's a very serious thing and it's dead simple to produce dangerous loudnesses, that close to the eardrum. What I ended up doing for tracking drums and loud things, is investing in some heavy isolation headphones, Sony drivers in the same kind of heavy tight enclosures used for ear protection at gun ranges. They're pricey, but they work.
Otherwise, you're still getting close to the sound pressure levels of whatever drums or amps you're playing, and then you're trying to turn up the backing tracks in your headphones to be enough louder than that, so you can hear what you're working on. And that's super dangerous.
Same thing with music to drown out noisy subway rides or what have you. You'll go deaf. Extra fast.
> Absolutely. Pete Townshend's deaf in one ear and has severe tinnitus, and he doesn't blame Marshall stacks (or even the still louder Hiwatt amps he actually used), he blames headphones in the studio.
Eddie Van Halen attributed his cancer to biting on metal guitar picks, and not his legendarily heavy smoking habit. Not sure we can put much stock in either.
I just had my ears cleaned and had a clump of ear wax around the size of a kidney bean come out. Quite frankly I was horrified but had had suspicions about hearing issues in the prior weeks.
The nurse essentially has an angled syringe that they use to repeatedly spray warm water at the wax until it’s dislodged. It’s not a nice sensation but tolerable.
After the procedure was done, the nurse had asked if I regularly had in ear headphones or earplugs - which was the case. So be aware of this issue.
It's a complicated topic, though, because many people first notice their tinnitus because they start paying attention to their ears for some reason, such as an earwax removal procedure, or using noise-cancelling headphones which lower the noise floor so much as to make tinnitus obvious over the reduced noise floor.
Now imagine if you had inserted air-cancelling earbuds that reduced background noise to levels well below ambient. The ringing would feel even louder.
Tinnitus sufferers hate isolation tanks for this reason. Background noise masks tinnitus quite well, so eliminating it makes tinnitus subjectively worse.
And then go into one of those noise cancelling rooms, and the only sounds you can hear are your blood pumping through your body and the tinnitus ringing.
The first time this happened to me it was so profound it made me question the nature of my reality. I left the doctors office slightly nauseous and with bionic super-hearing.
You can do this at home with very warm water and a soft bulb, squeezing it as hard as you can, and it is terrifying. It feels uncomfortable and sounds very loud. Do it for as long as you can stand, and then do it more. Do it for so long that you feel like an idiot and get dizzy.
About 10-15 squirts past the moment when you think there can't possibly be any point to what you're doing, an eldritch horror will come out of your ear into the sink, and you'll hear sounds you haven't heard in years.
Yep. They sell a product here called Remo-wax where you place drops in the ear for about an hour and then you spray the ear with a rubber ball/syringe type thing. I had no results with this however. The “ball” was so big i think it needed someone to target the blockage directly. Your mileage may vary.
I tried a lot of the products that involve putting drops in your ear, and maybe they work for delicate dainty people. The only thing that works for me is dozens of painful, loud blasts of hot water from a bulb until the abomination lurking inside has had enough and comes out.
Nope. This is a real problem. I own the AirPods Pro, older version and the newer Max. Immediate onset of tinnitus when using pro. Went away after I stopped. Extensive use of the Max and regular AirPods don’t produce the same. Never had tinnitus. I also use AKG studio headphones, and I’ve had ultimate ears custom moulded for me by an audiologist for on stage use. I’ve also used a hell of a lot of other audio gear for on stage performance, production, phone calls and casual listening with no tinnitus or other effects.
Trust me when I tell you that this is the tip of the iceberg and may result in a massive lawsuit over permanent hearing damage. I avoid AirPods Pro like the plague now.
Correct me if im wrong. But tinnitus doesnt come and go. Its something you have or you dont, and once you have it, its there and will only get worse as more damage accumulates.
I have it, mostly from hunting without ear pro. I dont always notice it, but its always there. Its usually mostly noticeable when im going to bed at night,when scuba diving, or when on a plane and I havent cleared by ears.
OR if/when i have headphones that create a seal in my ear, like the silicon earbuds that create, which is why you can hear yourself chewing/swallowing. Its a main reason i don't wear those types of earphones.
Tinnitus is always there, its permanent. But it just may be noticeable under certain conditions or circumstances.
This. Temporary ringing in the ears is not tinnitus.
I think people without tinnitus are having the normal symptoms associated with use of noise cancelling headphones. Those symptoms admittedly can be pretty nasty including sinus headaches and ringing in the ears.
> Tinnitus is always there, its permanent. But it just may be noticeable under certain conditions or circumstances.
I don't get this. Tinnitus is a ringing in my ears. When I don't notice it, it's not there.
Maybe you're saying that if it's being caused by some physical damage in the ear then that damage is still there. Sure, but it doesn't seem like that's always a component. From your link:
> Although we hear tinnitus in our ears, its source is really in the networks of brain cells (what scientists call neural circuits) that make sense of the sounds our ears hear. A way to think about tinnitus is that it often begins in the ear, but it continues in the brain.
Personally, I develop tinnitus any time I take a vacation, or if I'm consistent with meditation practice. But when my brain is instead constantly active, it's totally absent.
You are describing scenarios where it’s noticeable. It’s like saying if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there.
However my point is, just because some may become aware of their tinnitus when wearing say...AirPods Pro, that doesn’t mean they are the cause. I would notice it with those just as I would with the silicon earbuds that come with Roku remotes. But don’t notice it with my regular AirPods.
There are times it’s worse for me. Like when I’m stressed and times it’s suppressed, like when my adrenaline is pumping. And there are times when it’s more noticeable, like when it’s dark and quiet and my primary senses are dampened.
But regardless I would be part of that % of the population that has tinnitus.
And just because it’s noticeable with x device doesn’t mean that’s the cause.
> You are describing scenarios where it’s noticeable. It’s like saying if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there.
OK, but I believe in this situation, there is no physical sound, unlike if a tree falls in the woods. It's an auditory hallucination. A visual hallucination isn't there if I don't see it, and neither is an auditory hallucination.
FWIW I think we're largely in agreement. I described that I can gain tinnitus at-will by meditating, but I wouldn't say meditation causes tinnitus. And I can certainly see the AirPod/tinnitus connection being of the same nature - nothing with the physical hearing systems at all and instead a consequence of a change in the mind - even though I wouldn't say tinnitus is "always there".
It's there, you're just not noticing it. It may be more correct to say "When I don't notice it, it's not a problem". A bad analogy might be the noise of cars at night if you live in a city. Eventually, you get to the point where you don't notice it most of the time; it's not a problem. That doesn't mean the noise isn't there, just that it's not a problem for you.
Tinnitus is the damage and noise it causes. This can be annoying, but the fact that it's not annoying sometimes doesn't mean it's not there; you're just ignoring it.
Caveat: It is possible to damped/stop the noise caused by tinnitus for periods of time. Generally, this is done by "distracting" your brain in some way.
> It's there, you're just not noticing it. It may be more correct to say "When I don't notice it, it's not a problem"
For those of us that have it (mine is chronic), there is no difference between "I don't notice it" and "it's not there". We can debate semantics, but when I say "it", referring to tinnitus, I mean "it" to be "me noticing the noise". The noise IS "IT". If I don't notice it, it isn't there. It's not like /I/ don't notice it but someone else can, proving its existence.
I’ve had tinnitus for 25 years, and normally I also don’t hear anything (any more). Here’s the trick though: it’s my brain filtering out the frequencies of the ‘tone’.
Tinnitus is simply the perception of sound when no actual sound is present.
There are many different sub-categories of tinnitus, including the type you describe that results from permanent hearing damage.
However, there are other causes of tinnitus that can come and go, or be worsened by different conditions. Some people have tinnitus that changes volume by clenching their jaw, for example.
Classic subjective tinnitus is thought to be similar to phantom limb syndrome, where the patient experiences sensory inputs that are not actually present.
There is even a category called Objective Tinnitus, which is tinnitus that an external observer can hear (with the right tools). This is usually caused by strange blood flow patterns or muscle spasms.
I used to get the same. I was able to help it by getting in the habit of stretching my jaw often, and shifting my neutral jaw "posture". The neutral state used to be me keeping my jaw closed, meaning bringing my teeth together (not tight enough to clench, but just enough for contact), but I retrained myself to let my jaw "hang" when in a neutral state. It's helped a lot with tinnitus, ear pressure, jaw pain, etc.
May I ask how you managed to retrain yourself? I have tinnitus for a year now, plus issues with clenching my jaw, but I have yet to find a good way to stop doing it.
I kinda have a friendly relationship with my tinnitus. If I move my jaw in circles, the noise frequency follows the movements. I find it kinda funny. For example, right now I don't hear it (only if I really focus on it), but if I move my jaw, I immediately can hear it.
No ringing, but with earplugs (the hearing protection kind) or airpods or anything else in my ears that seals tightly, in a quite environment I can hear a sort of rumble from clenched jaws if I listen very carefully. Probably the muscles vibrating a little or the bloodflow or something.
I’ve had tinnitus for 25 years, and normally I also don’t hear anything. Here’s the trick though: it’s my brain filtering out the frequencies of the ‘tone’.
Only mentioning to say check that too if you’re checking for jaw-clench ringing
This seems odd to me. I guess tinnitus symptoms can be intermittent, but it isn't tinnitus unless it is constant? What label is appropriate for someone like me with intermittent symptoms?
Edit: sorry, I see about a million people are saying similar thing and have a lot of discussion under them.
The original thread is about AirPods (non-Pro). There was a conspiracy theory (that's the best word I can think of but may not be the correct one) a year or two ago because a bunch of updates to Bose, Apple, and other noise canceling headphones seemed to make the noise canceling worse and the rumored reason was they internally might have found hearing damage. AFAIK there's no direct or scientifically vetted information that this was the reason for the change.
Headphones and earbuds can cause hearing problems for quite a few unrelated reasons. People tend to increase the volume with headphones (I check the average audio level in Apple Health. I keep the volume quite a bit lower when using the Pro vs the original). Earbuds can compact earwax inside the ear causing pain, tinnitus, or hearing problems for some people.
Your tinnitus might have just become noticeable with the Airpods or perhaps something completely unrelated impacted it.
I had tinnitus flare ups during lockdown so went to both an audiologist and an ent specialist (had a mri too). I'm a heavy user of ANC devices as a means to relax/cope with my environment so I suspected the devices.
Professionals told me that there was no hearing damage and that my flare ups were likely connected to clenching my jaw and stress. I mentioned my devices/usage to my health professionals and they said there is no reason for concern.
After some physio I'm much better off.
If people are working from home in quieter environments where they're not exercising while using ear pieces / headphones more often, it shouldn't be surprising that tinnitus is becoming more noticeable. This is also during a pretty stressful time too, which doesn't help with tinnitus.
Most of the posts there appear to be about AirPods Pro -- which have ANC. FWIW, I have only ever used the regular AirPods (1st and 2nd gen) for hours on end every day for years and have no issues with them or tinnitus.
Studies have shown that the prevalence of tinnitus in a population likely ranges from 5%-30%[0]. Looking at sales figures for AirPods, 50 million users would be a very conservative estimate. Given those numbers 600+ reports is not very convincing.
Anecdotal but I have experienced similar with QC35s. Wear them for a bit for meetings etc (not loud) and tinnitus is noticeable when in bed that evening. Don't use them for a few days and tinnitus is not noticeable. It certainly feels like there is a definite correlation.
I assume the ANC is still pumping in a lot of frequencies that do not get 100% cancelled-out, but are outside of my hearing range so I do not notice them in the "silence" but which is hammering my physical ear bits with audio energy.
I use QC35 II and have noticed the same issue. I use mine at very low volumes (max 10%), sometimes even without any audio but my tinnitus is much more noticeable after using noise cancellation. The difference is large enough that I have decided to minimize my use of the ANC.
For me the ANC is audible when used without audio, but I imagine the ears get stimulated whether you can perceive it or not.
There also seems to be a correlation between Tinnitus and neck tension. Wearing headphones definitely adds some extra load to your neck. Perhaps you could determine the cause by wearing the headphone and not turning it on.
Same for me. I’ve had tinnitus most my life and my QC35s make it noticeably worse. I’ve pretty much had to stop using them which I hate because I really really enjoyed the noise cancelling aspects, but it got to the point where within a few minutes of putting them on the tinnitus would drown everything else out last for hours after removing them.
Since stopping using them the tinnitus has gotten significantly better (still there, it never goes away, but not as extreme).
It’s probably a good idea to disable ANC when you don’t really need it, and being in a meeting seems like one of those times. The iOS app lets you set the extra button to control the ANC level to make it easy to adjust. I’d only use ANC at times when it’s really needed, like on a plane.
This is my thought too. I have another brand of ear buds, and even at the lowest level setting it’s a little loud for me. But the average Joe just jams them in their ear and sets the volume to down out a lawnmower. And then is surprised when they get hearing damage?
I would say there are at least a significant amount of people where you can hear what music they're listening to while sitting ~2m away from them in the train.
Granted, the apparently nonexistent noise isolation of hardshell earbuds makes it pretty easy for sound to escape.
Decidedly speculative, but when Apple released that firmware update which caused people complained it had weakened the ANC effect there was talk of it being a response to this.
...then again was just a theory based on precisely zero hard facts.
Not specific to AirPods: I’ve had the same issue before with Bose Quiet Comfort 25. After using noise cancelling a few hours for a few days I was having this high pitch issue for a day or two. So not a permanent tinnitus (for me), still doesn’t sound good.
Another theoretical explanation: your tinnitus is always there, but you're not normally in extremely quiet places, and the quiet from the ANC lets you notice it better.
No, I was definitely not hearing high pitch when noise cancelling was on. I was hearing it when I removed the headset after using it of a few hours. It usually disappeared the next day. One time though i could still hear the high pitch for several days, that’s when I decided to stop using the QC25 and the high pitch eventually faded away and never came back, until AirPods.
I had a similar experience long before I got a real tinnitus.
I had been playing computer games countless of hours per day, not with any loud volumes at all and I started getting insane tinnitus when going to sleep. One day I stuck my head real close to the monitor and noticed a high pitch coil whine-like sound. Either the frequency range changed over time or it was always audible but I didn’t notice it in the beginning. It turned out the monitor had been blasting high pitch whine all this time and being exposed to this barely audible loud sound caused me to have this crazy temporary tinnitus.
A few days after getting replacing the monitor the issue was completely gone and I never had it again.
I've had tinnitus since I was a teenager. It's never bothered me, and I assumed everyone had it. I don't usually notice it while focusing on anything else, and even sometimes use it as a meditation object (paying attention to the oscillations of the sound).
I sometimes wonder how many people have it, but don't notice the existence of it until later into adulthood (because they're not putting much attention on it).
Interesting, I've never thought of using it as a meditation object. I might have to try that, as my tinnitus works the same as yours (I only notice it when it's super silent and I'm not working on something else)
I’m in your boat, where I take it for granted and use it to measure how tired my mind is (even if I’m not sleepy). Apparently not everyone has this positive of an adaptation to it.
Tinnitus is one of many symptoms many long haul COVID-19 sufferers complain about. Just as an anecdote Dr. Drew Pinsky was ill with COVID-19 around Christmas and complained about severe tinnitus as a result of his infection. So I'd be a little careful trying to draw sweeping conclusions about tinnitus right now without trying to account for and control the pandemic over the last year.
It’s the AirPods Pro specifically. I have not experienced this with the regular AirPods or the Max. Never had tinnitus, got it immediately when using Pro and went away immediately when I stopped using them.
That’s ridiculous. It’s the same thing. It’s just temporary until it’s not. I was nearly deaf from ringing for a week after my first Metallica concert. Then it went away, and now after more abuse it’s permanent, but it gets worse over days of using ANC, and better over months of not using anything.
20+ year tinnitus sufferer here, and recent owner of AirPods Pro. I can deal with the condition well enough, mostly by distraction, but just last week stumbled upon a supposed audio treatment on Spotify.
I gave it a listen and sure enough it seemed to diminish the tinnitus while playing. For the three or so days afterward, though, I experienced the worst and most piercing spell of ringing I can recall. Never again.
Im now curious about research in therapeutic use of headphones and related manipulative technologies. They’re clearly capable of doing something.
IIRC you press your ears shut with one or two fingers on each hand, and then tap with another finger on top of the pressing one. This should make an almost uncomfortable, punching, loud noise. Or maybe shut your ears with the heel of your hand and then use your fingers to tap on the back of your head. Forgotten how long you supposed to do it. Maybe a minute? The idea is to safely "overload" the hearing apparatus, pushing it into "self-protection mode", but allowing it to relax in the off-beat phase. For many people this seems to enable them to easily achieve a temporary period of peace from symptoms.
Loud white noise seems to do something similar.
I assume this breaks the perceptual feedback and offers the brain a chance to expect something else, before it rediscovers the chronic noise again.
I think it's valuable, because it may prevent people going all-in van Gogh style. Sometimes it's enough to know there is another experience to your case possible, even if it's only ever a moment of different.
No luck with that method for me. Wtf anecdata: I’ve had about 24 hours of peace from this my adult life and the only thing I could ever attribute that silence to was that it followed some random supermarket probiotics I started taking, for no good reason than it was a new fad and I wanted to see if anything would happen. That was apparently a one time deal, no repeats.
I can usually ignore or distract it away. Until I’m reminded of it by articles like these and it tries to consume me.
Sorry, you stuck with this so far. I think for most people, it fades away over the years. Luckily my episode of noise faded and was probably triggered by some lifestyle change at the beginning of the pandemic. However, I also have visual snow and think my brain just isn't very good at hiding its inner workings from me, may be just a matter of attention, rather than some "somatic" defect. I think the fact, you had a period of absence is promising and worth exploring and playing around.
Tried that. Guess it could work. But are you really _safely_ overloading the hearing apparatus? To me it's just another way of activating the eardrum, doesn't make it safer per se.
I am no authority to answer that question. IIRC ears can handle quite a bit of loud noise and protect themselves some way. The problem arises with long duration noise stress. Please look up this method for more info, to be confident and safe. I am sure your concerns have been addressed before.
Yes tinnitus can come and go. Generally it is worse when things are quiet. Some amount of background noise can reduce it. I have hearing loss induced tinnitus and just wearing hearing aids seems to suppress much of the tinnitus due to the increased background noise.
Another thing to be careful about is some medications can aggravate tinnitus. My me it was my BP medicine. Switch to a different one made an immediate improvement.
I’ve always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland.
I’m not talking about ionizing radiation, cancer, etc. (sure, there’s plenty of studies on that; we know, there isn’t), but on how those high-frequencies in close proximity may affect metabolism or other normal functioning — no such thing existed during our evolution.
The reason I mention thyroid gland is that its disfunction may have very bad consequences (wiki it). Cognitive, psychological, etc.
Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that. Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth headphones or use them wired (most have that option).
Also read the manual. For iphone 4 apple stated at least 15mm separation between the iphone and the head (5mm? nowdays). How many people just push it against the ear instead?
Fair enough, admittedly I’m not educated enough around RF to be able to tell how exactly frequency / distance / power can effect the human body.
> I’ve always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland.
If you do have any, would you mind linking any of these studies. Not trying to start a fight or nitpick them, I’m genuinely curious.
Unfortunately, like I said, all that I’ve found was about cancer, not metabolism or different cognitive functions, so:
> Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that. Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth headphones or use them wired (most have that option).
This makes so much sense in hindsight. Like I'm conscious of the decision to bump up the volume, but never even thought about the possible damage. Thanks!
I like the AirPod Pro’s for this when I’m on the streets. I can listen to music with one ear on relatively low volume with noise cancellation. When I use the same volume and disable noise cancellation, I have to turn up the volume around 20%.
They do! Just like all earbuds. Probably I'm the only modern human who's never stuck these things in my ear canals. I'm sure the damage goes beyond tinnitus.
The best noise cancelling ear muffs you can find are for shooters, such as Motorola ComTac. The muffs passively block all noise and instead use a speaker/mic to mirror outside sounds (or audio devices) at an acceptable volume.
They don't cancel sound they attenuate it. For best effect using both muffs and plugs is possible. That would be the preferable solution for ear protection in noisy environment.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 123 ms ] threadIf you want to worry about sudden sounds, there are probably more dangerous sources of them out there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference
I have tinnitus, but I've had it for way longer than I've been using noise cancelling headphones or in-ear earbuds.
So, you’d have to argue that short, sudden peaks are more damaging than continuous sounds. There is adaptation to sound volume (https://asa.scitation.org/doi/10.1121/1.1906477), but I think you’d need more than that.
not always true. Minor phase mismatch will create higher frequency sound. You wouldn't hear ultrasound, though how bad it is to have an ultrasound source in you ears i don't know.
The phase mismatch can be temporal - circuitry reacting either a bit too fast or too slow - as well as spatial - the sound wave front most probably aren't parallel to the speakers frontal plane.
Any harmonic distortion in the headphones will be introduced relative this, as well as being in the higher frequencies where it's less noticable, but still may cause hearing loss.
I've used ANC IEMs instead of proper hearing protection around loud machinery before and although it may have felt quieter, my ears still "rang" afterwards so I was causing permanent hearing damage. People who think ANC "sounds quieter" and use it instead of proper hearing protection (or just turn the music too loud) will definitely suffer hearing loss, though not directly because of the ANC.
I am not an audiologist, but an interesting similar issue happens with our eyes. If you wear tinted lenses with no UV filter, your body will be happy that it looks darker, and open your iris more. Now since your iris is open more, you actually cause more UV damage to your eye without noticing. I remember this being a big story when polarized 3D movie glasses came out and people were keeping them on outdoors.
i dont think it's feasible to cancel out such loud noise using just ANC. A sealed, airtight headset (or those tight earplugs) would have to be used. If you're using ANC for such loud noises, you'd still hear the noise through your bones/face imho. For example, if a car beeped its horn at you while using ANC, i hear it.
ANC is merely for constant low background noise like airplane engine.
You're right though that it doesn't work as well at high volumes. The louder the noise, the more distortion in the microphone/amplifier/driver, so the efficacy of the noise cancelling is reduced. For example in this THD graph of the AirPod Pro's, at 100dB it adds approximately 3dB compare to the 90dBtest.[1] Going much louder and you'll start getting digital clippings as the built in amplifier won't have enough range.
> . For example, if a car beeped its horn at you while using ANC, i hear it.
Car horns are above 100dB, and at the frequency they are, APD only measures about 20dB of attenuation [2], so that only brings it down to 80dB, which is still very loud.
> ANC is merely for constant low background noise like airplane engine. What I find very neat is that even though only 20-30dB of isolation is measured, many noises really do "go away". If you play around with ANC you'll realize that as the background noise gets louder, the white noise hiss from the ear piece gets louder. This mostly the result of error in the system, but this increase in background noise has the effect of masking any external sounds that make it through. I believe it also moves a lot of that energy to higher frequencies where you don't notice it.
[1] https://www.rtings.com/headphones/1-4/graph#1625/4029 [2] https://www.rtings.com/headphones/1-4/graph#1625/4053
At the time I couldn’t find anything on Google about this, but I still bought the headphones anyway.
Using the headphones the lingering thought of that statement bothered me. Using the headphones something didn’t feel right.
Flash forward to now, people are talking about this so I can’t find relevant info on this without the well (Google) being poisoned by armchair doctors.
I still feel noise cancelling is not healthy for ears.
I wonder... would this be theoretically possible? If so, are there any peer-reviewed papers published?
I have no idea if active headphones are "bad", just that they make me feel very uneasy.
The downside is that Custom In Ear Monitors are pricy (> $1000). When you have them made, you can often choose how many db of ambient sound attenuation you want.
https://emfacademy.com/airpods-radiation-safe/
Many people get tinnitus. Many people have AirPods. Could this be correlation not causation?
Does anyone more knowledgeable know the details of how AirPods (or similar) could cause tinnitus?
From what I understand some people can get very loud cases. I’m not sure how I’d deal with that.
Daily user of airpods for years, and no changes to my tinnitus.
But what helped me with those other issues (like itchy ears) is to listen to my doctor (no pun intended) to "forget" I have ears. Only wash the outer most part of the ear and leave it to do it's part. Wax, although unappealing, is nothing bad and is actually protective. I cleanse it with a hydrogen and olive oil spray mixture from the pharmacy every few months.
A lot of the discussion here seems to be around the Pro and Max's ANC. So I imagine it's a similar, but different concern.
Personally, when I upgraded from AirPods to the Pros my average volume I used dropped drastically. I got this info from Apple Health which tracks and warns of consistent high volumes.
Maybe this isn't down to something obvious with the audible sounds, but interference, or amplification of some other thing the Airpods radiate. See old mattresses picking up radio signals.
Maybe it's a hit-piece on the Apple stock.
Maybe this is just numbers and chance.
I wouldn't straight dismiss it, since it's not exactly unbelievable and Apple has a history of delivering innovation without paying due diligence to/testing the not UI details.
Keep in mind that Apple sells a massive number of AirPods. On the order of 100,000,000 units per year. The prevalence of tinnitus is estimated to be in the range of 10% of the population.
It's also possible to impact earwax against the eardrum when inserting anything into your ear, Airpods or otherwise. Earwax compacted against the ear can worsen or modulate tinnitus. That would be my most likely explanation for any sudden-onset tinnitus following earbud use.
Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp....
600 out of 200,000,000-300,000,000 units sold is a reported incidence of around 0.0002%.
It's possible that earbud usage has some negative effects in certain people due to earwax impaction or changing pressure in the inner ear, but Apple may be getting the blame because they're the only vendor operating with such large market share.
Tinnitus can be a lifelong condition and deserves investigation.
It already seems like a platitude to tell folks not to listen at peak volume for extended periods of time. It'd be interesting to see if there are common behaviors, such as use at max volume, reported amongst those affected.
I rode a diesel electric locomotive commuting daily for about 8 years. These machines are very, very loud.
I’ve certainly found myself turning mine up quite high when listening to audiobooks while walking (with background traffic noise)
I've not worked with rigid, custom-molded in-ears. Something like that might be enough of a barrier, but remember if sound waves can physically move the earphone against the seal, that's going to be sound leakage. The Remote Audio cans aren't designed for comfort, they're designed to control sound pressures that'd instantly wreck your eardrums, like high-caliber nearby gunfire for extended periods. The headphone drivers are literally an afterthought, added by a separate company if I remember correctly.
It's a very serious thing and it's dead simple to produce dangerous loudnesses, that close to the eardrum. What I ended up doing for tracking drums and loud things, is investing in some heavy isolation headphones, Sony drivers in the same kind of heavy tight enclosures used for ear protection at gun ranges. They're pricey, but they work.
Otherwise, you're still getting close to the sound pressure levels of whatever drums or amps you're playing, and then you're trying to turn up the backing tracks in your headphones to be enough louder than that, so you can hear what you're working on. And that's super dangerous.
Same thing with music to drown out noisy subway rides or what have you. You'll go deaf. Extra fast.
Eddie Van Halen attributed his cancer to biting on metal guitar picks, and not his legendarily heavy smoking habit. Not sure we can put much stock in either.
The nurse essentially has an angled syringe that they use to repeatedly spray warm water at the wax until it’s dislodged. It’s not a nice sensation but tolerable.
After the procedure was done, the nurse had asked if I regularly had in ear headphones or earplugs - which was the case. So be aware of this issue.
It's a complicated topic, though, because many people first notice their tinnitus because they start paying attention to their ears for some reason, such as an earwax removal procedure, or using noise-cancelling headphones which lower the noise floor so much as to make tinnitus obvious over the reduced noise floor.
Now imagine if you had inserted air-cancelling earbuds that reduced background noise to levels well below ambient. The ringing would feel even louder.
Tinnitus sufferers hate isolation tanks for this reason. Background noise masks tinnitus quite well, so eliminating it makes tinnitus subjectively worse.
Now, I have tinnitus 24/7. (Which is completely unrelated.)
About 10-15 squirts past the moment when you think there can't possibly be any point to what you're doing, an eldritch horror will come out of your ear into the sink, and you'll hear sounds you haven't heard in years.
Then do the other ear.
Trust me when I tell you that this is the tip of the iceberg and may result in a massive lawsuit over permanent hearing damage. I avoid AirPods Pro like the plague now.
I posted this 3 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24805366
https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/tinnitus
I have it, mostly from hunting without ear pro. I dont always notice it, but its always there. Its usually mostly noticeable when im going to bed at night,when scuba diving, or when on a plane and I havent cleared by ears.
OR if/when i have headphones that create a seal in my ear, like the silicon earbuds that create, which is why you can hear yourself chewing/swallowing. Its a main reason i don't wear those types of earphones.
Tinnitus is always there, its permanent. But it just may be noticeable under certain conditions or circumstances.
I think people without tinnitus are having the normal symptoms associated with use of noise cancelling headphones. Those symptoms admittedly can be pretty nasty including sinus headaches and ringing in the ears.
> You may hear these sounds in 1 or both ears, or in your head. They may come and go, or you might hear them all the time.
I don't get this. Tinnitus is a ringing in my ears. When I don't notice it, it's not there.
Maybe you're saying that if it's being caused by some physical damage in the ear then that damage is still there. Sure, but it doesn't seem like that's always a component. From your link:
> Although we hear tinnitus in our ears, its source is really in the networks of brain cells (what scientists call neural circuits) that make sense of the sounds our ears hear. A way to think about tinnitus is that it often begins in the ear, but it continues in the brain.
Personally, I develop tinnitus any time I take a vacation, or if I'm consistent with meditation practice. But when my brain is instead constantly active, it's totally absent.
However my point is, just because some may become aware of their tinnitus when wearing say...AirPods Pro, that doesn’t mean they are the cause. I would notice it with those just as I would with the silicon earbuds that come with Roku remotes. But don’t notice it with my regular AirPods.
There are times it’s worse for me. Like when I’m stressed and times it’s suppressed, like when my adrenaline is pumping. And there are times when it’s more noticeable, like when it’s dark and quiet and my primary senses are dampened.
But regardless I would be part of that % of the population that has tinnitus.
And just because it’s noticeable with x device doesn’t mean that’s the cause.
OK, but I believe in this situation, there is no physical sound, unlike if a tree falls in the woods. It's an auditory hallucination. A visual hallucination isn't there if I don't see it, and neither is an auditory hallucination.
FWIW I think we're largely in agreement. I described that I can gain tinnitus at-will by meditating, but I wouldn't say meditation causes tinnitus. And I can certainly see the AirPod/tinnitus connection being of the same nature - nothing with the physical hearing systems at all and instead a consequence of a change in the mind - even though I wouldn't say tinnitus is "always there".
It's there, you're just not noticing it. It may be more correct to say "When I don't notice it, it's not a problem". A bad analogy might be the noise of cars at night if you live in a city. Eventually, you get to the point where you don't notice it most of the time; it's not a problem. That doesn't mean the noise isn't there, just that it's not a problem for you.
Tinnitus is the damage and noise it causes. This can be annoying, but the fact that it's not annoying sometimes doesn't mean it's not there; you're just ignoring it.
Caveat: It is possible to damped/stop the noise caused by tinnitus for periods of time. Generally, this is done by "distracting" your brain in some way.
For those of us that have it (mine is chronic), there is no difference between "I don't notice it" and "it's not there". We can debate semantics, but when I say "it", referring to tinnitus, I mean "it" to be "me noticing the noise". The noise IS "IT". If I don't notice it, it isn't there. It's not like /I/ don't notice it but someone else can, proving its existence.
There are many different sub-categories of tinnitus, including the type you describe that results from permanent hearing damage.
However, there are other causes of tinnitus that can come and go, or be worsened by different conditions. Some people have tinnitus that changes volume by clenching their jaw, for example.
Classic subjective tinnitus is thought to be similar to phantom limb syndrome, where the patient experiences sensory inputs that are not actually present.
There is even a category called Objective Tinnitus, which is tinnitus that an external observer can hear (with the right tools). This is usually caused by strange blood flow patterns or muscle spasms.
Normally I don't hear anything, but that could be because it's below the threshold that I'd notice it at.
Anyways: people with definitely good hearing, do you hear ringing when you clench your jaw?
Only mentioning to say check that too if you’re checking for jaw-clench ringing
Edit: sorry, I see about a million people are saying similar thing and have a lot of discussion under them.
I'm wondering if this is caused by ultrasonics? Someone must have measured these somewhere...
Headphones and earbuds can cause hearing problems for quite a few unrelated reasons. People tend to increase the volume with headphones (I check the average audio level in Apple Health. I keep the volume quite a bit lower when using the Pro vs the original). Earbuds can compact earwax inside the ear causing pain, tinnitus, or hearing problems for some people.
Your tinnitus might have just become noticeable with the Airpods or perhaps something completely unrelated impacted it.
I had tinnitus flare ups during lockdown so went to both an audiologist and an ent specialist (had a mri too). I'm a heavy user of ANC devices as a means to relax/cope with my environment so I suspected the devices.
Professionals told me that there was no hearing damage and that my flare ups were likely connected to clenching my jaw and stress. I mentioned my devices/usage to my health professionals and they said there is no reason for concern.
After some physio I'm much better off.
If people are working from home in quieter environments where they're not exercising while using ear pieces / headphones more often, it shouldn't be surprising that tinnitus is becoming more noticeable. This is also during a pretty stressful time too, which doesn't help with tinnitus.
0. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5812683/#S8titl...
I assume the ANC is still pumping in a lot of frequencies that do not get 100% cancelled-out, but are outside of my hearing range so I do not notice them in the "silence" but which is hammering my physical ear bits with audio energy.
For me the ANC is audible when used without audio, but I imagine the ears get stimulated whether you can perceive it or not.
Since stopping using them the tinnitus has gotten significantly better (still there, it never goes away, but not as extreme).
Another case of “OMG Apple!” click bait.
Granted, the apparently nonexistent noise isolation of hardshell earbuds makes it pretty easy for sound to escape.
...then again was just a theory based on precisely zero hard facts.
I had been playing computer games countless of hours per day, not with any loud volumes at all and I started getting insane tinnitus when going to sleep. One day I stuck my head real close to the monitor and noticed a high pitch coil whine-like sound. Either the frequency range changed over time or it was always audible but I didn’t notice it in the beginning. It turned out the monitor had been blasting high pitch whine all this time and being exposed to this barely audible loud sound caused me to have this crazy temporary tinnitus.
A few days after getting replacing the monitor the issue was completely gone and I never had it again.
I sometimes wonder how many people have it, but don't notice the existence of it until later into adulthood (because they're not putting much attention on it).
* wear a mask and social distance with anyone outside your bubble during a pandemic
* don't put shit in your ears unless advised by a doctor to do so
* if the sounds at a concert are so loud as to be uncomfortable to you, leave
It’s the AirPods Pro specifically. I have not experienced this with the regular AirPods or the Max. Never had tinnitus, got it immediately when using Pro and went away immediately when I stopped using them.
I gave it a listen and sure enough it seemed to diminish the tinnitus while playing. For the three or so days afterward, though, I experienced the worst and most piercing spell of ringing I can recall. Never again.
Im now curious about research in therapeutic use of headphones and related manipulative technologies. They’re clearly capable of doing something.
Any connection here would be interesting.
IIRC you press your ears shut with one or two fingers on each hand, and then tap with another finger on top of the pressing one. This should make an almost uncomfortable, punching, loud noise. Or maybe shut your ears with the heel of your hand and then use your fingers to tap on the back of your head. Forgotten how long you supposed to do it. Maybe a minute? The idea is to safely "overload" the hearing apparatus, pushing it into "self-protection mode", but allowing it to relax in the off-beat phase. For many people this seems to enable them to easily achieve a temporary period of peace from symptoms.
Loud white noise seems to do something similar.
I assume this breaks the perceptual feedback and offers the brain a chance to expect something else, before it rediscovers the chronic noise again.
I can usually ignore or distract it away. Until I’m reminded of it by articles like these and it tries to consume me.
Another thing to be careful about is some medications can aggravate tinnitus. My me it was my BP medicine. Switch to a different one made an immediate improvement.
I'd like to try the notching technique[2] but I have yet to be able to identify the frequency of my tinnitus.
[1] https://mynoise.net/NoiseMachines/neuromodulationTonesGenera... [2] https://www.pnas.org/content/107/3/1207
I’m not talking about ionizing radiation, cancer, etc. (sure, there’s plenty of studies on that; we know, there isn’t), but on how those high-frequencies in close proximity may affect metabolism or other normal functioning — no such thing existed during our evolution.
The reason I mention thyroid gland is that its disfunction may have very bad consequences (wiki it). Cognitive, psychological, etc.
Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that. Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth headphones or use them wired (most have that option).
There’s a reason standards have different values for head vs other parts: https://www.apple.com/legal/rfexposure/iphone13,3/en/
Also read the manual. For iphone 4 apple stated at least 15mm separation between the iphone and the head (5mm? nowdays). How many people just push it against the ear instead?
> I’ve always searched for studies about impact of the ultra high frequencies (GHz i.e. billions as in bluetooth) on the brain and, more importantly, on the thyroid gland. If you do have any, would you mind linking any of these studies. Not trying to start a fight or nitpick them, I’m genuinely curious.
> Really would like to see studies about possible impact on that. Until then, just to be safe, I try not use any bluetooth headphones or use them wired (most have that option).
Not that you push cell tower or your wifi router against your head, isn’t it?
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/tinnitus/symp...