Seems like they’re hoping to gain access to new target demographics through marketing gimmicks. They mentioned gamification, which is just weird and a disturbing for a tool made to kill.
I'm not the best reader in the world, but I interpretated "semi-game" as in they're attempting to break into the game hunting market. Within the context of the article though, that seems to be too charitable of an interpretation, lol.
> they're attempting to break into the game hunting market
They are already in that market, and the MP-155 shotgun (of which the new Ultima is a variant) is apparently one of their popular products in that market. But they've explicitly pointed to video game inspiration in its design, so I think the “game” in “semi-game” is a reference to that (though I think this is still in the hunting market, their are just trying to make it more videogame-like and social-media-friendly, to attract a less traditional market.)
> No, they mentioned entering a "semi-game" niche, which is vague other than maybe targeting groups like airsoft enthusiasts.
Since it's a variant of a popular sport hunting shotgun, I think the reference is to gamifying hunting (or maybe target shooting). I don't think “airsoft, but with a smart shotgun” is a game likely to be a viable market outside dystopian fiction.
(Though if this does reach the market in significant numbers, I can't imagine it avoiding being very publicly used in shocking ways specifically enabled by its electronic integration.)
> “With Ultima we want to attract new customers who are not typically our target audience,” said Tarasov. “We are targeting customers who want to get some drive or adrenaline. Entering a semi-game niche could be an option.”
That seems like it goes beyond weird/disturbing, and a decent case could be made for actually evil.
I am pro-gun, with the understanding that education is necessary, and this seems like it not only isn't education, but if anything is the opposite -- pushing for people to be even more irresponsible and dangerous.
I think it's a bad translation and they mean "semi-game" as in "not big game" hunting or "non-competition but competition styled" target shooting. The point being if they make it easier or more fun then people will spend their free time/money on their guns instead of spending it on a jet ski or whatever.
Being able to replay a video of a shot so you can see where you hit something and have a realistic idea of how far it went would be useful to a lot of hunters. Additionally, sharing what you did with your buddies is a big part of a lot of recreational activities these days, particularly with younger people so they're naturally providing a mechanism for that. The guy who owns the dirt bike has go-pro footage of that sick jump he made. This sounds like it's like that but for your gun.
TFA didn't provide much detail, but I'll be fascinated to discover if there ends up being a path wherein successful unauthorized access can lead to interacting with the fire control.
Either remote disable or remote firing would be a hell of a security issue.
I assume the electronic part has no access whatsoever to the firing part... Let's hope these people are more competent than those who build chastity belts ;-)
There was a sniper rifle a few years ago that had a security issue that indirectly affected firing. You could remotely connect to the optics and change where it looked like it was aiming, ruining any zeroing in the shooter had done on a range.
For entertainment purposes, this and similar tactics are featured in the Ghost in the Shell series of amines:
1. Towards the end of the original movie, the helicopter-based satellite-guided sniper weaponry gets communications disrupted, buying time for the main characters while snipers switch to manual mode.
2. In S1E2, the runaway tank intercepts the satellite coms guiding Saito's sniper optics, and uses it to dodge his first shot.
3. In S2E14, In a rouse meant to draw out Saito in a sniper duel, combat cyborg The Major tricks him into thinking she's stopped fighting in order to download short-range combat software from satellite. The trick works, she deflects his bullet with her own, then she shoots him in the face. They both become friends after that.
Why? Other than tracking stats, this seems not useful at all. One of the main selling points of an AK is the rugged durability.. and you want to throw in sensitive electrical components? edit: This is for a shotgun by kalashnikov, not an AK, but my point still stands. Guns need to be reliable.
If a gun doesn't consistently go bang when you pull the trigger (and safety is off, etc), it's completely useless and would better serve as a paperweight.
edit: an external system that integrates with the gun for training purposes would be useful. If I could track shots + accuracy at X yards at the range, that would be very useful. But for a real situation, the last thing I want is something potentially causing an issue with the gun.
When you've got everyone's rifle connected to a network you can know who's having a bad day and have help on the way in case they ask.
No current firearms designer is dumb enough to put nonessential electronics in the critical path.
I can see a usefulness for some of the electronics stuff in a training context as well.
Details in the article are sparse but the article states this is a sporting shotgun. Knowing how non-electronics companies ventures into consumer electronics typically go I bet this is just a $100 worth of sensors and a Bluetooth module integrated into a stock and marked up 500% and if it does a good enough job recording that trick shot you made (so you can share with your internet friends for bragging rights) people will pay for it.
> When you've got everyone's rifle connected to a network you can know who's having a bad day and have help on the way in case they ask.
This is the one (maybe) plausible use case I’ve seen in the thread so far.
I’m still skeptical though given how fast technologies can change. A gun maintained well can work fine 50 years later. Will Wi-Fi or Bluetooth still work the same 50 years from now?
Speed of change is also why luxury electronics is very different from traditional luxury accessories. How long is the useful lifetime for a gift of a Vertu smartphone [1] or an Apple Watch Hermès [2]?
No current firearms designer is dumb enough to put nonessential electronics in the critical path.
The State of New Jersey has/had a law[1] that would require all handguns sold to be outfitted with smart gun technology within X months of said technology becoming available, that would prevent the gun from firing except when in the hands of its authorized owner.
At the time, it was assumed that would take a form like, the owner needs to wear a special ring on the hand that would grip the gun, and the firing mechanism would sense proximity of the ring. The nightmare stories that could arise from that pretty much write themselves.
But my point is that, even if manufacturers aren't that dumb, politicians are.
This is not an AK assault rifle. It's the “Ultima shotgun”, which is (the article doesn't mention this) a variant of Kalashnikov’s apparently-quite-popular MP-155 shotgun.
Some pieces specifically about the Ultima (the source article here goes back and forth between the Ultima and various production licensing deals with AK assault rifles which provides little insight on either):
I see, I missed that. Either way, I see no real purpose for adding electronics like this to a gun asides from range training tools. It just becomes a liability in a real situation.
Yeah, it's obviously something of a toy and marketing gimmick (and I'm not sure how much of it is “marketing the actual product” and how much of it is a concept-car-like piece to draw attention to the company more than or instead of selling the particular product.)
Yuri Orlov : [Narrating] Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars.
Not sure if you are talking about current exports or just raw amount of rifles in circulation, but the current top exporter of AK platform rifles is Arsenal AD from Bulgaria, with their AR-M1. Huge contracts, including India.
• Digital ammo remaining in mag counter - they exist, widely regarded as useless
• Barrel wear / bullet speed sensor - useless outside of AA guns
• Position / camera - usually integrated with helmet
• Target position pointer to squad - feasible, but not on an AK. This works together with the laser range finder and the the position of the rifle to mark a target on the squad map for fire support and such. Again, not on an AK.
In short, gimmick. Will NOT be used in Russian army, guaranteed. If used by customer states, will be used to EW detect targets for arty strikes.
> And yes, my whole point is that this is a marketing gimmick that has no application to anything combat-related.
Since this is explicitly, per Kalashnikov, a civilian sporting shotgun with videogame-inspired features not aimed at a combat market, that's officially the case (though the company would probably not use the term “gimmick”), not something that needs argument notionally drawn from trends in warfare to establish.
Just because the company designates it as a gimmick doesn't mean it ceases to be any more useless. If you look at the rest of the discussion here - the merit/application of this "feature" is being discussed.
I was looking at Milwaukee drills and noticed the new models had wifi capability. At first I wasn't sure why I needed that, but a helpful video explained it to me.
I also recently bought a Nikon camera, and for the new model they removed the cable shutter release connection and instead have wifi capability with a phone app.
I'm not surprised guns are following recent trends. But I think this is one of those dead end trends where the features are neat but in practice too inconvenient to be widely adopted.
Tool life calculationes and automated suggestion of different ways to use tools to increase life or speed of work are par for the course in the machining world and have been for years.
It makes sense that over time that kind of stuff slowly gets better and makes its way to work environments where less variables are controlled for.
Useless. The only digital system on a gun I found interesting and useful was TrackingPoint and some other tool that integrates with the trigger so it can automatically shoot once it asserted the target will be hit. Now that's a game changer, it's literally an autonomous rifle, just with a human handling it.
Maybe I'm just tired but this was a confusing read. If I'm getting this right, the AK203 is a traditional assault rifle, no gimmicky bluetooth on that one. But they also want to market a shotgun (Ultima) and that will for some reason have bluetooth. Um.. I think I'll stick to my 780 thank you. Good luck though!
Well hang on, if you got yourself a rifle then I wanna get me a semi-automatic
Weapon!
You get a semi-automatic weapon and I'm gonna want an automatic weapon!
You get yourself an automatic weapon, I'm gonna get a super-automatic weapon!
Well if you get a super-automatic weapon, then I'm gonna get a
Super-duper-automatic weapon with a CD-ROM drive!
If you get yourself one of those I'm gonna get a
Super-duper-automatic weapon with a CD-ROM drive, and a big old hard
Drive, and a big guitar amp so I can play BTOs...
But without knowing what features specifically WiFi/BT will be used for, it's kind of pointless to make any kind of judgment.
They might be features for individuals, or features specifically for managing and tracking lots of guns at gun ranges. They might be to do with safety and security, or to do with stats and gamification. They might be to do mainly with the gun itself, or mainly with smart accessories for the gun.
But jumping to conclusions that this is merely gimmicky, or inappropriate for a gun's simplicity, is totally unfounded until we know what the actual features are.
Oh boy, a gun that tells everyone exactly where to find the armed combatants. Will Russia sell it's new WiFi and Bluetooth enabled gun finding sensor too? Will it also have a blinking blue light to make it easier to spot at night?
I look forward to the defcon demo that tells you when your enemy's gun jammed or how much ammo they have left.
I find the fact that the factory is being built in India a bit disturbing. India does not have a thriving civilian market for guns, how does this help the people?
companies don't exist to help people, they exist to create profits for themselves. Companies only thrive by helping people, but not necessarily "the people".
> I find the fact that the factory is being built in India a bit disturbing.
The factory being built in India is for the AK-203 assault rifle, in coordination with India's defence ministry, presumably for the Indian military. (Along with general revenue targets and other stuff, this article discusses three different specific weapons: Ultima, AK-203, and AK-130.)
It has nothing to do with the Ultima shotgun, it's just that Reuters mixed a whole bunch of otherwise-unconnected Kalashnikov news into one article with appallingly terrible organization.
Will these additional features increase the utility of the gun? Not as far as i can see. Then the answer must be that the gun increases the utility of the software. I'm not sure that turning an instrument of death into a toy is a wise idea. I know many guns are fired in sport, but the reality remains that its just your gun and your target. Will augmenting that reality reduce the gravity of firing a weapon at a live being? Am i taking this too seriously?
74 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 129 ms ] threadThey are already in that market, and the MP-155 shotgun (of which the new Ultima is a variant) is apparently one of their popular products in that market. But they've explicitly pointed to video game inspiration in its design, so I think the “game” in “semi-game” is a reference to that (though I think this is still in the hunting market, their are just trying to make it more videogame-like and social-media-friendly, to attract a less traditional market.)
Since it's a variant of a popular sport hunting shotgun, I think the reference is to gamifying hunting (or maybe target shooting). I don't think “airsoft, but with a smart shotgun” is a game likely to be a viable market outside dystopian fiction.
(Though if this does reach the market in significant numbers, I can't imagine it avoiding being very publicly used in shocking ways specifically enabled by its electronic integration.)
That seems like it goes beyond weird/disturbing, and a decent case could be made for actually evil.
I am pro-gun, with the understanding that education is necessary, and this seems like it not only isn't education, but if anything is the opposite -- pushing for people to be even more irresponsible and dangerous.
Being able to replay a video of a shot so you can see where you hit something and have a realistic idea of how far it went would be useful to a lot of hunters. Additionally, sharing what you did with your buddies is a big part of a lot of recreational activities these days, particularly with younger people so they're naturally providing a mechanism for that. The guy who owns the dirt bike has go-pro footage of that sick jump he made. This sounds like it's like that but for your gun.
My fault for the bad reading comprehension, thanks for the fix!
Either remote disable or remote firing would be a hell of a security issue.
1. Towards the end of the original movie, the helicopter-based satellite-guided sniper weaponry gets communications disrupted, buying time for the main characters while snipers switch to manual mode.
2. In S1E2, the runaway tank intercepts the satellite coms guiding Saito's sniper optics, and uses it to dodge his first shot.
3. In S2E14, In a rouse meant to draw out Saito in a sniper duel, combat cyborg The Major tricks him into thinking she's stopped fighting in order to download short-range combat software from satellite. The trick works, she deflects his bullet with her own, then she shoots him in the face. They both become friends after that.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26184009
In other news, I have a vintage Soviet army AK-47 detailed parts poster. I'd rather have an old AK.
If a gun doesn't consistently go bang when you pull the trigger (and safety is off, etc), it's completely useless and would better serve as a paperweight.
edit: an external system that integrates with the gun for training purposes would be useful. If I could track shots + accuracy at X yards at the range, that would be very useful. But for a real situation, the last thing I want is something potentially causing an issue with the gun.
When you've got everyone's rifle connected to a network you can know who's having a bad day and have help on the way in case they ask.
No current firearms designer is dumb enough to put nonessential electronics in the critical path.
I can see a usefulness for some of the electronics stuff in a training context as well.
Details in the article are sparse but the article states this is a sporting shotgun. Knowing how non-electronics companies ventures into consumer electronics typically go I bet this is just a $100 worth of sensors and a Bluetooth module integrated into a stock and marked up 500% and if it does a good enough job recording that trick shot you made (so you can share with your internet friends for bragging rights) people will pay for it.
This is the one (maybe) plausible use case I’ve seen in the thread so far.
I’m still skeptical though given how fast technologies can change. A gun maintained well can work fine 50 years later. Will Wi-Fi or Bluetooth still work the same 50 years from now?
Speed of change is also why luxury electronics is very different from traditional luxury accessories. How long is the useful lifetime for a gift of a Vertu smartphone [1] or an Apple Watch Hermès [2]?
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertu
[2]: https://www.apple.com/apple-watch-hermes/
[0] https://www.atf.gov/file/149886/download
The State of New Jersey has/had a law[1] that would require all handguns sold to be outfitted with smart gun technology within X months of said technology becoming available, that would prevent the gun from firing except when in the hands of its authorized owner.
At the time, it was assumed that would take a form like, the owner needs to wear a special ring on the hand that would grip the gun, and the firing mechanism would sense proximity of the ring. The nightmare stories that could arise from that pretty much write themselves.
But my point is that, even if manufacturers aren't that dumb, politicians are.
[1] I'm not sure of its current status
This is not an AK assault rifle. It's the “Ultima shotgun”, which is (the article doesn't mention this) a variant of Kalashnikov’s apparently-quite-popular MP-155 shotgun.
Some pieces specifically about the Ultima (the source article here goes back and forth between the Ultima and various production licensing deals with AK assault rifles which provides little insight on either):
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/08/28/kalashnikov-c...
https://www.rbth.com/science-and-tech/332677-kalashnikov-cre...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9240201/The-hipster...
pick up a cyberpunk or shadowrun book ;-) smartgun increases chance to hit and is required for automation
1. remote fire control, obviously, and an interface for drones, semi as well as fully automatic ones
2. the shotgun has a display and camera - how about friend/foe recognition? (requires a tactical network)
3. connect it to augmented reality goggles/visor/eyes. gun sees what it is pointed at, use that to render a crosshair
4. think about police officers and body cams. A gun that records its point of view makes a lot of sense as well.
>> If a gun doesn't consistently go bang when you pull the trigger (and safety is off, etc)
"Safety" might change away from a mechanical aspect over time. Some may consider these anti-features:
5. there is an active police operation in the area, your gun is now locked to safety on.
6. this weapon can not be used in this country (the USA did that for rocket launchers)
7. this weapon can not be used with this ammunition (printers do that with cartridges)
8. you are not the registered owner of this weapon
9. your license has expired
Yuri Orlov : [Narrating] Of all the weapons in the vast soviet arsenal, nothing was more profitable than Avtomat Kalashnikova model of 1947. More commonly known as the AK-47, or Kalashnikov. It's the world's most popular assault rifle. A weapon all fighters love. An elegantly simple 9 pound amalgamation of forged steel and plywood. It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do. The Soviets put the gun on a coin. Mozambique put it on their flag. Since the end of the Cold War, the Kalashnikov has become the Russian people's greatest export. After that comes vodka, caviar, and suicidal novelists. One thing is for sure, no one was lining up to buy their cars.
China is still a major exporter of them, although of course it's not something India going to buy.
Remote operation? Check.
Accidental swipe? Oops.
Where did you get them from? They certainly aren't Kalashnikov’s arguments for the features of this weapon.
> feasible, but not on an AK.
Even if the argument it is attached to was relevant to the Ultima, the MP-155 Ultima isn't an AK.
> Will NOT be used in Russian army, guaranteed
Well, yeah, it's an expensive tech-toy variant of a popular civilian hunting shotgun. They aren't aiming for Russian Army sales.
And yes, my whole point is that this is a marketing gimmick that has no application to anything combat-related.
Since this is explicitly, per Kalashnikov, a civilian sporting shotgun with videogame-inspired features not aimed at a combat market, that's officially the case (though the company would probably not use the term “gimmick”), not something that needs argument notionally drawn from trends in warfare to establish.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nib2Ktd7TY
I also recently bought a Nikon camera, and for the new model they removed the cable shutter release connection and instead have wifi capability with a phone app.
I'm not surprised guns are following recent trends. But I think this is one of those dead end trends where the features are neat but in practice too inconvenient to be widely adopted.
It makes sense that over time that kind of stuff slowly gets better and makes its way to work environments where less variables are controlled for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9WEbExPpm4
But without knowing what features specifically WiFi/BT will be used for, it's kind of pointless to make any kind of judgment.
They might be features for individuals, or features specifically for managing and tracking lots of guns at gun ranges. They might be to do with safety and security, or to do with stats and gamification. They might be to do mainly with the gun itself, or mainly with smart accessories for the gun.
But jumping to conclusions that this is merely gimmicky, or inappropriate for a gun's simplicity, is totally unfounded until we know what the actual features are.
I look forward to the defcon demo that tells you when your enemy's gun jammed or how much ammo they have left.
Sure they do. Those people are called shareholders.
The factory being built in India is for the AK-203 assault rifle, in coordination with India's defence ministry, presumably for the Indian military. (Along with general revenue targets and other stuff, this article discusses three different specific weapons: Ultima, AK-203, and AK-130.)
It has nothing to do with the Ultima shotgun, it's just that Reuters mixed a whole bunch of otherwise-unconnected Kalashnikov news into one article with appallingly terrible organization.
[0] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv3Ey_pPlXk