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Ask HN: Is NYC a good place to get a job as a Web dev?

49 points by venturebros ↗ HN
I landed a summer internship in New York but I want to go to NYC afterwards.

I have been looking at craigslist and indeed it seems like there are plenty Web developer positions open. But I have no clue how many are actually applying for these jobs.

So is it an employer or employee market out there? Will I have trouble landing a job?

47 comments

[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 86.6 ms ] thread
onassar
It's def. a good market. Top #5 in the US no doubt. I'd say make the decision on where you want to live over whether or not you could get the best job there. Tough finding that balance, so if you like the city, run with it..
pavel_lishin
We're hiring for a web developer right now. When I was moving here - six months ago - I easily managed to snag four interviews over a two-day trip specifically to try to find a job.

So yeah.

carterac
NYC is an insanely hot market for web engineering talent. Every founder I know complains about finding great engineers. As CEO of a tech startup here, I personally spend ~80% of my energy dedicated to finding the absolute best engineers in the city, and often I have to recruit people from other parts of the world and convince them to move here (which isn't that hard given how beautiful this city is).

Another data point: a friend who wanted to move from Microsoft to NYC had multiple job offers within a week of posting his resume to an NYC tech mailing list.

If you're interested in speaking more, please email me at carter@art.sy. Even if you're not interested in Art.sy, I'm happy to intro you to other NYC startups you might be interested in.

[edit] Here is a link to the Quora thread of all NYC startups that are hiring: http://www.quora.com/Startups-in-New-York-City/Which-startup...

hucker
I have a question, how are the salaries for web engineers with masters in NYC, and how much is the rent? (I understand that both these questions are hard to answer, but a rough guess?) I'm asking because I like the idea of working in NYC for a while, and would love to see some numbers to compare with the market back here in Norway.
rgejman
Based on anecdotal evidence from my friends and my own renting experience:

Salaries: between 60 and ~100k for 0-2 years out of college (those are my friend's age ranges).

Rent: Highly dependent on where you live. Assuming you want to live decently in Manhattan, expect to pay anywhere from $1k (in Washington Heights) to $2k/mo (in, e.g. UWS) to unlimited for other areas for a 1-bedroom apartment (or equivalent). Obviously, this can be cheaper or more expensive depending on if you want roommates, location, quality of building and quality of apartment.

Living expenses: Obviously depends on how you live. Take what you pay right now and add 30-40%.

hucker
Thank you for a swift reply! Salaries are a bit lower than starting salary in Norway if 60-100k is the norm, but 1k a month for rent is cheaper than I thought! I don't know if Washington Heights is a dodgy place to live, but that is great news. I (still a student) pay nearly 1k for my share of an apartment which I share with a roommate quite a way from campus here in Trondheim, Norway, and that seems to be about the norm for students here by my observations. I know NYC is expensive, but if you can out-Norway Norway on living expenses I'd be impressed [1].

One last question though, how hard is it to get the appropriate visas etc for work if you are a Norwegian citizen and speak fluent English?

[1] http://images.businessweek.com/ss/10/06/0622_most_expensive_...

klbarry
One k a month is at best a studio, by the way, in Manhattan. And that would be way uptown.
Johngibb
Anywhere in midtown, village, it's going to be at least 1600 for a studio for the most part. Just spent a month looking for a place in greenwich village. And it's hard to find a place without using a broker, who's going to take 15% of the annual rent (almost 2 months of rent) as a broker fee.
gnosis
"it's hard to find a place without using a broker, who's going to take 15% of the annual rent (almost 2 months of rent) as a broker fee."

What about apartment hunting on sites like Craigslist?

Johngibb
You'll find that 95% of the ads are fake just to get you to call the broker listed, or are mislabeled as "no fee". But if you get lucky, you can find something. Padmapper.com (no connection to me) puts a nice googlemaps interface onto craigslist as well.

Edit to add: When you get into the higher price ranges, and start looking in doorman / elevator buildings, it gets a little easier since you can deal with the management company directly. but that's like ~2200 and up or so probably.

sbisker
In NYC, I'd say 60k is too low for an entry-level computer science position, even for a kid coming out of a bachelors, unless you're at a startup / ad agency / other similarly interesting job. Even the first year investment bankers usually make at least 50k base - and that's the "don't worry about the number you'll make more in bonuses" number.

You say you have a Masters - assuming it's in computer science and you have any internship or "real programming" experience at all, I would be surprised to see you getting something less than a mid-level or strong junior position, and a salary of at least 80k accordingly.

gnosis
"Even the first year investment bankers usually make at least 50k base - and that's the "don't worry about the number you'll make more in bonuses" number."

Don't rely on the bonuses!

I've been in and known of too many companies which work your ass off with the promise of a big bonus, but when it comes time to deliver the bonus they always have some excuse for either giving you a low bonus or none at all.

Many Wall St firms are also like revolving doors and sweatshops, which treat a many of their employees like crap with the rationale that you're lucky to be working there at all. This is especially true of entry-level employees. But if you can tough it out to senior level, you'll probably do a lot better.

sbisker
Good advice. I only mentioned it to give a lower-bound on the expected job salary.

The only Wall St firms I know that don't treat their entry-level employees like revolving doors, are also the ones that pay much higher than 50k for base (and don't make as big of a deal about bonuses, even if they do have them.)

mbubb
Washington Heights is not that dodgy (neighborhood by neighborhood) - the problem is that it could be a 30 minute subway ride to midtown add another 10-15 to downtown.

For less than peak rents, consider the cities along the western shore of the Hudson River. Hoboken, Jersey City can be a 15 minute ride to midtown.

gnosis
"the problem is that it could be a 30 minute subway ride to midtown add another 10-15 to downtown"

This is actually quite a reasonable commute, by NYC standards.

It's not uncommon to have a 1 hour commute each way.

I myself used to commute in to the City 2 hours each way. That's 4 hours of my life pretty much wasted every weekday.

In comparison, commuting from Washington Heights would have been a blessing.

One of the nicest commutes I had was from Brooklyn Heights, which was just a 4 minute subway ride from Wall St. Very nice neighborhood too. I would highly recommend it, if you can afford the rent.

gsiener
As another data point, you can find some great deals with a 30ish minute commute in Brooklyn. Yes you can easily pay as much as UWS/Tribeca but there are more deals out here.

Another pro tip: ride a bike and save $5/day on your commute!

venturebros
I have heard Brooklyn was cheap. I am looking around that area for the fall.
mbubb
Brooklyn is a great idea. Also "Long Island City" in Queens. Hoboken, Jersey City. If you live near the subway in those places you can have a 20 min ride to midtown/downtown NYC.
Johngibb
I lived in Hoboken for three years while working in NYC. First, I'd recommend living very close to the PATH station. The buses are very hit or miss, depend on traffic, and don't run frequently on weekends.

Also, if you're out in NYC on a weekend and want a cab home to somewhere like brooklyn, it'll only cost you like 15 bucks. However, if you want one to Hoboken, it'll cost you around 50-60... Really a pain when the PATH only comes every half hour after midnight.

gyardley
Hoboken's where I live and I love it. Rent about 50% of what it'd be in the West Village, just across the river. PATH train makes for a quick commute and runs 24 hours. City is walkable, Fresh Direct delivers, Grimaldi's and Maxwell's are here...

As long as you can walk to the PATH, the loser factor on weekends (Jersey's finest comes to party) is the only real downside.

aplusbi
There are areas of Brooklyn that rival Manhattan prices, but generally speaking the further away from Manhattan you go the cheaper the rent gets.
saalweachter
If you want the ultimate in NYC luxury, find an apartment within walking distance of your job ... you can pretend that the $100 / month you save on a Metrocard makes up for the rent increase. A 5-10 minute walk-to-work commute is probably the single greatest quality of life improvement money can buy.
frankdenbow
+1 to Carter'd thoughts.

Some other resources are these:

- FindAHacker.com (mostly NYC focused, email list of opportunities)

- HireLite.com (video chat speed dating for hiring)

- InsideStartups.org (email list of job opportunities)

There are many places looking, so things are certainly in your favor in NYC. Plus the city is awesome!

sbisker
What mailing list is this? I'm looking at moving to NY soon myself from beautiful Boston. If nothing else, I could use some help learning about "the scene".
adrianparsons
I just completed a job search and can say the market really is in your favor.

Stop using Craiglist. If you're going to use a service, use Indeed, Authentic Jobs, the 37 Signals job board or something else. "Inside Startups" is a great newsletter that lists jobs weekly.

Ideally, though, you want to meet people in person. There are multiple parties, events, and meetups every week.

To start, go to any of the tech meetups listed on Meetup.com. Garysguide.org has a lot of events listed as well. (Those Meetup groups have email lists, watch them for job postings.) Get business cards and follow up with people.

You're going to get offers faster than you expect. Decide what you want (big company, small company, front-end, back-end, python, ruby, etc), and learn to say "no". Before saying "yes", ask other nerds about them (at the Meetups, for example).

venturebros
Oh thanks! BTW is there any reason to stay away from Craigslist?

And what are some good meetups to join?

sbisker
Essentially, you stay away from it because of the low signal to noise ratio.

For employers, the deluge of candidates who think that technology is HOTHOTHOT means that they have to look at far more resumes to find people who are worth bringing in to interview. Skipping Craigslist, for many companies, acts as a low-pass filter - the bet being that you'll ignore more noise than you will signal. After all, the good employer probably only needs one good employee, not 100 mediocre ones (especially in engineering.)

For employees, a similar phenomenon occurs. Once you've been burned once or twice in your career, you start to notice that managers at worse jobs tend to rely heavily on Craigslist, Monster and the like. These companies know that technology is HOTHOTHOT, but they not be savvy (or even care about technology) enough to go to meetups and post jobs in ways that engage the tech community. So again, many of the best employees will only use craigslist as a last resort, because they don't want to deal with the poor postings. Ignoring it is a low-pass filter for employees as well - after all, they only need one job.

There are plenty of more tech-specific sites with "elite" job boards, where the sheer knowledge of knowing about the job posting site - and understanding the technologies and discussions around them - is enough of a filter to encourage both good employees and good employers to show up. (Hint: check out HN user whoshiring.) But at the end of the day, the best jobs are almost always filled the old fashioned way - by word of mouth. And that's why it makes sense to get out there and meet people early and often.

(In a happy coincidence, it also turns out you'll learn a lot more in general by meeting and talking to people and frequenting tech sites instead of sitting in front of Craigslist.)

Obviously this stuff is wild generalization - and as with any low-pass filter, you take a risk by ignoring Craigslist. I usually go to Craigslist once in a while myself. In my experience, it's worth checking on them once in a while (if only to see what you'll find), but not relying on them.

shurane
I got 3 interviews via Craigslist with decent companies (startup, SEO company startup, magazine) before I got a chance to even look somewhere else to apply. A week later, I began interning at the startup.

Also, I started looking for internships after I got out of school (late May, early June). That's pretty late, I think.

That said, there are probably better places to look, but Craigslist is pretty ubiquitous. I don't think everyone recruits through HN or StackOverflow or any other similar site. It'd be nice, but a lot more people know about Craigslist... right?

Although, word of mouth is hands down better in every way. So you say there are lot of these meetups, eh?

sbisker
Awesome! :)

The nice thing about tech is that there are enough jobs that if you're good, Craigslist will do you just fine. :) I think it depends on where you live, as well as what type of company you want (the three-person YC startup doesn't have the man-power to sort through Craigslist resumes, so they might just post here first - and in a place like NY or Boston, hooked-in companies might get more than enough people through their sites and connections to bother with Craigslist)

Wow, did I get you to make your first post? That's pretty cool. :) But your city isn't in your profile, so I can't point you to any particular meetups.

sbisker
Oh, and looking for internships after you got out of school is late - for traditional jobs and larger companies (the Googles of the world), tech internship recruiting season starts around January. However, it can be perfect for getting an internship at a startup or another busy company who is barely planning its own existence more than 6 months in advance, let alone looking for interns. :)
bherms
Check out CrowdTap... Hot startup hiring in NYC.
peacemaker
It seems for web devs a great place to be, but how about for embedded/real-time programmers? I've over 10 years experience in defence and gaming industries mainly doing C++ and I'd love to work in NYC but just assumed it'd be far too difficult to land a position. Anyone have any idea?
brandonkm
NYC is an excellent place to find work as a developer. You have a ridiculous selection of awesome startups and larger companies to choose from. The last Brooklyn.js meetup I went to had more people looking to hire front-end developers than people looking at a ratio ~5:1.
markbao
I'll freaking hire you right now.

Just kidding, but yeah, if you're good and you're in NYC, you'll be slurped up by the startups here. Everyone has problems hiring in NYC.

gsiener
If you're already in NYC for the summer you'll have no trouble finding a job. Plan on spending your non-internship time building relationships with startups that are getting things done. This is tough because they don't necessarily hang out at the more prominent meetups but you will find them.
venturebros
I am actually 2 hours away from NYC for the summer. I have to find out my hours to see if I can get anytime to go to the city and get some connections.
sbisker
Oh, it's venturebros, the guy with the cool name! :)

Once you're in NY, drop Hackruiter[0] a line. They're YC alums [EDIT: and apparently YC funded again as recruiters] and based out of NYC, doing recruitment for startups (mostly YC alumni themselves). They got me my current contract and they're all-around great guys that, as both recruiters and engineers, understand the scene as well as anyone. They also run a weekly meetup called BrainDump[1], which is about as techy as a meetup can get (in a good way), and a mailing list "LinkedList".

They seem to be all about meeting smart, motivated people and making meaningful connections, as opposed to just playing matchmaker - so even though you're not looking yet, I bet they'd be up for a chat. Heck, if you're interested, I'll point them to this thread.

[0]http://www.hackruiter.com/ [1]http://www.hackruiter.com/about

venturebros
Cool, thanks! I will contact them when I am at the end of the internship.
ayb
There are plenty of opportunities in NYC - from startups, to big brands, to finance. All of them are competing for the same talent.

When you are ready to start looking, change your LinkedIn profile to say you're a <whatever> consultant located in NYC. You will start getting contacted by headhunters within a few days.

awarzzkktsyfj
New York is still full of schemers, compared to SF Bay area. I lived in Mountain View for two years, San Francisco for three, and NYC for two -- I am in the process of moving back to Mountain View. I love NYC as a place to live, but found it frustrating for tech work. The job offers I've had in the SF bay area always seemed reasonable to me. In New York, I've received ridiculous low-ball offers, and have had a few friends have the same experience, but only in New York. They all have moved to San Francisco now.
sbisker
To answer your question more directly: There are a ton of people applying for these jobs. Like, crazy amounts. And why wouldn't there be? It's a great field to be in right now.

But thanks to things like the Mythical Man-Month[0], engineering is a field where people would rather have 1 incredible engineer than 10 mediocre engineers for the same price. So for someone with talent and the right reputation, there's arguably no better field to be in than engineering.

So basically, if you're good at what you do, engineering is one of the hottest job markets in the country. (In NY, the hotness is particularly exaggerated, because the startups there are the companies most likely to want to keep their teams small, and hire the best - and they have to compete with the financial sector, which provides large numbers of engineers a steady job with high pay.)

If you're not good at what you do (or even if you just want to get better at what you do), don't assume the hotness of the market will get you a job. The market is hot for engineers, but I'd say it's only hot for good engineers, again, due to the Mythical Man-Month effect.

But don't be discouraged. Just by being proactive getting internships and participating on Hacker News, you're probably better than 80% of the applicants your age out there. That's why so many of our answers are assuming that you're a good candidate - because odds are, you probably are. :)

[0] If you haven't read this, take a few moments out this summer to do so. It's a quick, breezy and incredibly informative read. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

venturebros
Frankly, I don't think I am good enough to work at startup where I am at right now. I have a better chance at landing a job at Interactive agency with my background then a startup. I will still try but I don't think it's going to happen.