“ Governments including the U.S. have denounced the treatment of the people inside the camps as "genocide" and "crimes against humanity."
Yet the question remains: What else can any nation do about it? I lament to say that unless it starts hurting the flow of iPhones and cheap products from China, no government or corporation has an incentive to speak up and take action
It’s really easy to make flippant statements like this when neither you, nor anyone you love, nor anyone you even know is being subjected to the terrors that many Uyghur people face on a daily basis.
Same can be said to your statement about the people in the middle east we have yet to stop bombing. I don't think growing that list is a good solution, but for a nation whose main export is 'defence' weapons, it should be obvious why it's ever-growing.
...so let's go bomb some other people and force a government of our choosing on them. That'll solve everything. Oh, and because those people will love their new government so much it'll have to be propped up by our military indefinitely.
The skepticism I see about this story is really disturbing. From the evidence I have read I am almost certain that there is a genocide happening. But even if I was only 10% sure it was happening I would demand investigations and proof it wasn’t because the consequences of it being true is so horrible.
I also feel positive that it’s being picked up and spun for political reasons. Just like it was previously ignored for political reasons. That’s a reason to be skeptical of the actions we’re being told to take, not of the fact that it’s happening.
The important thing is we demand that our leaders (gov and corporate) step up and apply pressure. China has to prove there is not a genocide happening - or we need to take action to stop it.
If this was math you’d be right, but it wouldn’t take a lot to allow outside observers enough access to the communities in question to confirm or deny the story.
> even if I was only 10% sure it was happening I would demand investigations and proof it wasn’t because the consequences of it being true is so horrible
True, I agree with this.
> I also feel positive that it’s being picked up and spun for political reasons. [...] That’s a reason to be skeptical of the actions we’re being told to take, not of the fact that it’s happening.
I don't get how can you be so sure that it's happening when, as you recognise yourself, there are strong political reasons to push the story. On the run up to the Iraq invasion, people were equally sure that Saddam was hiding WMDs. The US Secretary of State went in front of the UN assembly and showed a sample of a biological agent being developed by Saddam. Don't underestimate the ability of persistent propaganda in making you virtually certain of things that are not true.
> China has to prove there is not a genocide happening
Why are people down-voting on the principal you are innocent until proven guilty?
Lets hash this out, what will you do when/if we find that the 3 letter agencies and other bodies with good translators and good intel are found to be right and there is no genocide being committed?
Will you then ignore the demolishing of the Uyghurs artefacts and the large amount of 'education' camps?
China has documented very detailed rebuttals to most of the serious (rape, death, sterilisation) claims so far. I think they would allow you check their sources as long as that's it, is this the request?
Meanwhile the Ethiopian massacres barely get a mention on HN.
Innocent until proven guilty doesn’t mean you don’t get investigated when there is evidence there may have been a crime committed.
I’m not asking to check sources - i’m asking for free and open access to uyghur communities for journalists - in a way that would allow them to confirm or deny the claims without putting the people they interview’s lives in danger.
I don’t know about Ethiopia, but I do know that almost every purchase i make funds the ccp, not ethiopia - which makes me culpable in a genocide
How can any consumer boycott China? Mailing my representatives gets a cherry letter telling me they're very concerned and working on this matter! Then I watch cspan and not a word gets said that could ruffle a single of xis hairs. Perhaps direct action is needed? A Boston tea party except China cargo celebration perhaps?
A boycott of china is very hard to do at an individual level.
My best solution so far has been to buy used products whenever i can’t find a version that was made outside of china. But this clearly doesn’t solve the issue, since the used market would be quickly emptied if only a few more people did the same.
The fact that we are so dependent on chinese manufacturing is a problem on it’s own.
Another report based on BBC news stories we have all read.
It's all one giant Wikipedia circular proof.
There is clear documentation of people used in this report changing their story multiple times over the years. Which since none of the stories are corroborated, is an issue.
But this report doesn't even look at the way the news stories are changing over time. It's to lazy to even do that.
China is not North Korea. It's not even close. Original research is not hard. But each report must be bigger than the last.
The article also isn’t trying to assert that racially targeted re-education camps don’t exist - all it’s trying to do is say that the claims of violence and abuse in those camps are inconsistent.
I’m pretty uncomfortable with racially targeted re-education camps
The country that did the most racial/religion targeted bombing for the past 40+ years (US) is ”uncomfortable" with reeducation camps to deradicalize the terrorists they helped create/train with the assistance of Turkey and Saudi.
Newlines is funded by FairfaxU of Virginia, a private school with ~150 students and ~60 staff (read: there's external funding). Newlines Institute is also rebrand Center for Global Policy (CGP), tradename for International Institute of Islamic Thought... linked to the Muslim Brotherhood [0]. And owned by Mar-Jac, a front for SAAR Foundation, a massive source of funding of extreme terrorism whose US proxies were heavily investigated post 911, including IIIT with a couple prosecutions. Hence the rebranding. Most of their US proxies are located in Virginia, a recent of Mar-Jac investments in private schools was linked to Turkish Gulenist, which Gulf council countries has designated as terrorists... including Saudi. So the most interesting extrapolation for me is that some wealthy Saudi group(s) is interested in pushing genocide narrative via US proxies despite Saudi support for China at UN and MbS purging major funders of terrorist groups. Western MSM is whitewashing this as "Independent DC think tank". Real question is if this is Muslim extremist groups pursing their own interests through obfuscation or if they're coordinating with US intelligence, it's Virginia after all. US was willing to delist Uyghur terrorist groups, they're willing to work with OG Al Qaeda funders to destabilize.
TFW MSM using "Independent DC think tank" label for front funded by the same groups that was responsible for Al Qaeda. Desperate times for propaganda.
The best thing we can do as participant citizens of the world is to look at the primary source and draw your own conclusion of what the best action to take is. There's 317 footnotes and citations in the attached report document. I encourage everyone to read them directly.
To me it appears to be a recompilation of existing documents from combatants like RFA, UHRP, ASPI, Zenz and common names from the past few years. But everyone should read the source directly.
33 comments
[ 0.27 ms ] story [ 67.4 ms ] threadYet the question remains: What else can any nation do about it? I lament to say that unless it starts hurting the flow of iPhones and cheap products from China, no government or corporation has an incentive to speak up and take action
> "genocide" and "crimes against humanity."
Why is this even a hard question? Tim Cook is apparently fine with using Uyghur slave labor. Why should we care about his bottom line?
I also feel positive that it’s being picked up and spun for political reasons. Just like it was previously ignored for political reasons. That’s a reason to be skeptical of the actions we’re being told to take, not of the fact that it’s happening.
The important thing is we demand that our leaders (gov and corporate) step up and apply pressure. China has to prove there is not a genocide happening - or we need to take action to stop it.
How does one prove a negative though?
True, I agree with this.
> I also feel positive that it’s being picked up and spun for political reasons. [...] That’s a reason to be skeptical of the actions we’re being told to take, not of the fact that it’s happening.
I don't get how can you be so sure that it's happening when, as you recognise yourself, there are strong political reasons to push the story. On the run up to the Iraq invasion, people were equally sure that Saddam was hiding WMDs. The US Secretary of State went in front of the UN assembly and showed a sample of a biological agent being developed by Saddam. Don't underestimate the ability of persistent propaganda in making you virtually certain of things that are not true.
> China has to prove there is not a genocide happening
Ok, what should they do to prove it?
This seems like a reasonable point — maybe I’m just missing something.
Lets hash this out, what will you do when/if we find that the 3 letter agencies and other bodies with good translators and good intel are found to be right and there is no genocide being committed?
Will you then ignore the demolishing of the Uyghurs artefacts and the large amount of 'education' camps?
China has documented very detailed rebuttals to most of the serious (rape, death, sterilisation) claims so far. I think they would allow you check their sources as long as that's it, is this the request?
Meanwhile the Ethiopian massacres barely get a mention on HN.
I’m not asking to check sources - i’m asking for free and open access to uyghur communities for journalists - in a way that would allow them to confirm or deny the claims without putting the people they interview’s lives in danger.
I don’t know about Ethiopia, but I do know that almost every purchase i make funds the ccp, not ethiopia - which makes me culpable in a genocide
My best solution so far has been to buy used products whenever i can’t find a version that was made outside of china. But this clearly doesn’t solve the issue, since the used market would be quickly emptied if only a few more people did the same.
The fact that we are so dependent on chinese manufacturing is a problem on it’s own.
It's all one giant Wikipedia circular proof.
There is clear documentation of people used in this report changing their story multiple times over the years. Which since none of the stories are corroborated, is an issue.
But this report doesn't even look at the way the news stories are changing over time. It's to lazy to even do that.
China is not North Korea. It's not even close. Original research is not hard. But each report must be bigger than the last.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210223203303/https://moonofala...
Look at the primary sources which they cite.
The article also isn’t trying to assert that racially targeted re-education camps don’t exist - all it’s trying to do is say that the claims of violence and abuse in those camps are inconsistent.
I’m pretty uncomfortable with racially targeted re-education camps
Can't make this stuff up...
Most interesting tidbit.
Newlines is funded by FairfaxU of Virginia, a private school with ~150 students and ~60 staff (read: there's external funding). Newlines Institute is also rebrand Center for Global Policy (CGP), tradename for International Institute of Islamic Thought... linked to the Muslim Brotherhood [0]. And owned by Mar-Jac, a front for SAAR Foundation, a massive source of funding of extreme terrorism whose US proxies were heavily investigated post 911, including IIIT with a couple prosecutions. Hence the rebranding. Most of their US proxies are located in Virginia, a recent of Mar-Jac investments in private schools was linked to Turkish Gulenist, which Gulf council countries has designated as terrorists... including Saudi. So the most interesting extrapolation for me is that some wealthy Saudi group(s) is interested in pushing genocide narrative via US proxies despite Saudi support for China at UN and MbS purging major funders of terrorist groups. Western MSM is whitewashing this as "Independent DC think tank". Real question is if this is Muslim extremist groups pursing their own interests through obfuscation or if they're coordinating with US intelligence, it's Virginia after all. US was willing to delist Uyghur terrorist groups, they're willing to work with OG Al Qaeda funders to destabilize.
TFW MSM using "Independent DC think tank" label for front funded by the same groups that was responsible for Al Qaeda. Desperate times for propaganda.
[0] https://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2020/11/12/new-musli...
To me it appears to be a recompilation of existing documents from combatants like RFA, UHRP, ASPI, Zenz and common names from the past few years. But everyone should read the source directly.