Federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed. Also, officials may share copies of the laptop's contents with other agencies and private entities for language translation, data decryption, or other reasons, according to the policies, dated July 16 and issued by two DHS agencies, US Customs and Border Protection and US Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
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DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies — which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens — are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism.
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The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash..."
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
The Constitution is our Contract with the Government, and the Judicial Branch our process. Writing your Representative helps, but giving to lawyers who fight and defend the Constitution from overreaching/overreacting Government Officials is equally important and extremely patriotic IMO.
I don't want to go political here, but I'd simply remind you that customs has _always_ had the ability to inspect and detain materials crossing the border, whether your personal property or not. It is not unreasonable for the federal government to control materiel moving over the border. There's not even a "reasonable clause" notion here, as a complete and thorough search are asssumed at ports of entry -- otherwise the government would be defrauding the social contract by not being concerned enough about what's happening there.
How else would you run a border? Hey guys, what do you feel like showing me that you're moving? This laptop smells like it has encrypted money on it?
They're not investigating a crime, they're controlling movement. That's their job.
There used to be (and still is, I think) a crime of carrying so much undeclared cash across the border -- whether or not its yours or not. One could argue that the IP contained on a laptop easily could be more valuable than the cash limit, but there are no similar regulations on IP movement. With cell phones becoming e-wallets, seems like it would be easy to walk across the border with a couple hundred k loaded on your cell phone. Strange world, eh?
Encrypt your data and put it in the cloud. Much easier to do than either figuring out what a perfect world would look like or implementing it.
I won't mention my political opinion on this, that's for Reddit, but this has some implications for what you ought to bring across borders on your laptop. Basically this prevents you from carrying sensitive documents such as businessplans, patent applications, source code, etc. Clearing this from my laptop would be a major hassle. Having it available securely online for when I arrive would be an even bigger hassle.
There are two seperate issues, keeping your data secure from the government reading it, and making sure you have a copy of the data you want on both sides of the border in case they do take your laptop. Both require different solutions. The first takes heavy encryption, the latter a cloud service.
Mind you the government does not have a right to your password - since it is stored in your mind and you have to basically testify to the password it is a violation of the 5th amendment. However if you have a physical key, they can get a warrant for the key, so use a password and some solid encryption and take multiple copies of data.
"Mind you the government does not have a right to your password"
They also don't have to let you back in the country. If your plan is to just not tell the agent your password, you might be in for an adventure. From Schneier's earlier article on this subject...
"The border agent is likely to start this whole process with a "please type in your password". Of course you can refuse, but the agent can search you further, detain you longer, refuse you entry into the country and otherwise ruin your day."
Not sure why people downmodded this comment. Government policies like this pose a real personal and business privacy problem. Any service that solves it in a convenient way surely has the potential to be profitable.
Yeah, some of the old School House Rock videos seem rather fictional to me these days (particularly "No More Kings"). I'd love to see a modern remix of that with some well chosen TV footage on YouTube.
there was a story this week where one of the senators who is pro-stuff like this in US, was speaking out about how China is an oppressive regime because they plan to monitor internet usage from hotels during the olympics. And this was the same senator who is pro-warrantless wiretapping
Surely they know this. They must. There are a few other reasons why a government might implement pointless security exercises like these, however.
A wiser head than mine once said that in order to understand a seemingly "pointless" bit of policy, try instead to understand what the natural result of that policy would be, and then the "point" would become apparent.
...But I'll stop there because next thing you know, we'll be talking politics at HN.
I don't believe that the point is IP. I remember when traveling Europe, a number of customs officials demanded that I turn on my laptop in order to prove that it was real. I think that the concern is that an electronic device could be used to conceal a bomb, or a similar tool.
I am interested to know at what point usa.gov starts becoming a problem for hackers such as pg and his followers?
As someone who resides outside the USA, news articles like this cause a HUGE problem for me if I ever wanted to visit the USA.
As a hacker I am already used to being treated to varying degrees as a 'freak' by regular folks.. What happens if a border guard decides to pick on me and then isn't happy when I try to explain why my laptop has no GUI? According to what I've read, not only do I have no rights but I may be detained in uncomfortable conditions for weeks before they send me back to my home country.
There are all kinds of crappy things that affect hackers, and everyone else. If we start posting them all, it would be easy to fill the site with them.
That's not to say you shouldn't be concerned, just that political discussion belongs elsewhere, IMO.
Most of the discussion regarding laptop seizure at the border seems to focus upon how to protect your data. This is important, but I already do this. I'm an independent programmer/artist and my laptop is my main tool, and very expensive. If my laptop was seized randomly for an indefinite time period, I'd have to spend $3K to replace it, which is not an insignificant amount of money.
I see this provision mostly being used by customs agents who want to steal someone's laptop or ipod for themselves.
it has been going on for what, about 200 years now ? just about _any_ government has retained the right to inspect _anything_ that enters it's borders, citizenship notwithstanding. this is nothing new, it just applies to laptops (and friends) now.
i am not saying whether it is right or wrong, just providing some context. why the sudden outrage ?
I can understand the need for security, but policies such as this make people like me less likely to visit the U.S. unless I had to (being ethnic type and Muslim already makes it hard enough).
45 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 112 ms ] thread[...]
DHS officials said that the newly disclosed policies — which apply to anyone entering the country, including US citizens — are reasonable and necessary to prevent terrorism.
[...]
The policies cover 'any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form,' including hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes. They also cover 'all papers and other written documentation,' including books, pamphlets and 'written materials commonly referred to as "pocket trash..."
The Constitution is our Contract with the Government, and the Judicial Branch our process. Writing your Representative helps, but giving to lawyers who fight and defend the Constitution from overreaching/overreacting Government Officials is equally important and extremely patriotic IMO.
How else would you run a border? Hey guys, what do you feel like showing me that you're moving? This laptop smells like it has encrypted money on it?
They're not investigating a crime, they're controlling movement. That's their job.
There used to be (and still is, I think) a crime of carrying so much undeclared cash across the border -- whether or not its yours or not. One could argue that the IP contained on a laptop easily could be more valuable than the cash limit, but there are no similar regulations on IP movement. With cell phones becoming e-wallets, seems like it would be easy to walk across the border with a couple hundred k loaded on your cell phone. Strange world, eh?
Encrypt your data and put it in the cloud. Much easier to do than either figuring out what a perfect world would look like or implementing it.
This can be in the form of cash, certificates of deposit, bonds, stocks, and I suppose anything else that has the semblance of real money (gold, etc).
Backup your stuff always
Mind you the government does not have a right to your password - since it is stored in your mind and you have to basically testify to the password it is a violation of the 5th amendment. However if you have a physical key, they can get a warrant for the key, so use a password and some solid encryption and take multiple copies of data.
They also don't have to let you back in the country. If your plan is to just not tell the agent your password, you might be in for an adventure. From Schneier's earlier article on this subject...
"The border agent is likely to start this whole process with a "please type in your password". Of course you can refuse, but the agent can search you further, detain you longer, refuse you entry into the country and otherwise ruin your day."
You also have a cool button system at the stand which you can rate your experience with the border guard.
Sam Brownback, Kansas.
By the way, I think Mark Twain had it slightly wrong. He should have said "shameless" instead of "an idiot".
That is a brilliant idea. You'd only need one button for INS, tho', which would be labelled "obnoxious".
This program just inconveniences the innocent while solving nothing.
A wiser head than mine once said that in order to understand a seemingly "pointless" bit of policy, try instead to understand what the natural result of that policy would be, and then the "point" would become apparent.
...But I'll stop there because next thing you know, we'll be talking politics at HN.
What's next, secret torture prisons? Oh...
As someone who resides outside the USA, news articles like this cause a HUGE problem for me if I ever wanted to visit the USA.
As a hacker I am already used to being treated to varying degrees as a 'freak' by regular folks.. What happens if a border guard decides to pick on me and then isn't happy when I try to explain why my laptop has no GUI? According to what I've read, not only do I have no rights but I may be detained in uncomfortable conditions for weeks before they send me back to my home country.
That's not to say you shouldn't be concerned, just that political discussion belongs elsewhere, IMO.
Then imagine meeting this super duper hacker Michael Scofield who unfortunately would have also lost his invaluable laptop to the FBI.
I see this provision mostly being used by customs agents who want to steal someone's laptop or ipod for themselves.
i am not saying whether it is right or wrong, just providing some context. why the sudden outrage ?