Ask HN: What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

78 points by naskwo ↗ HN
If you buy a mobile phone today, the choice is between Android and iOS, or, more specifically, between Samsung and Android.

[LG's announcement to stop making smartphones is a testament to how the technology and (economy of scale) of Apple and Samsung have evolved to a duopoly of smartphone brands. For most consumers, two choices are enough. Quick: name the third in line: Coca Cola, Pepsi and ...? Or McDonald's, Burger King and ...?)

Will the same happen for electric cars? Ford is already building their EVs on a VW chassis.

For example: whether you buy an electric Kia or electric Porsche, what are the real engineering differences between the car, considering:

- the drivetrain is electric - the center of gravity is lowered in almost all EVs because of the (current state of the art) of battery placement - Many key (security) parts are bought OEM from the same suppliers, including tyres, audio systems and airbags. - The manufacturer with the most driven miles will likely have the least amount of "bugs"

Will car brands go even more the way of fashion brands, where the difference between Porsche and Kia will be like the difference between Balenciaga and Nike: both are functional footwear, but I'd choose the Nikes and save the difference.

Will "internal luxury" and "prestige" take the overtone in marketing and branding for the next 20 years, as opposed to how "clean" a car is and the engineering of their engines? And, of this technology, how will supercar automakers adapt? E.g. why buy a Ferrari if the "soul" (engine) is replaced with an electric drivetrain that is likely less mature in engineering than what would be inside a Tesla S?

241 comments

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Do you want an answer or do you just want lunchroom discussion? You may as well be asking for stock tips or tonight's lotto numbers. You won't find an answer that's accurate and reliable enough to be actionable here or anywhere.

If anyone could do more than idly speculate (probably dressed up with some tropes that play to the audience's confirmation bias to maximize virtue points) OEMs wouldn't be paying millions of dollars per year for the continued existence of their market and customer research teams.

The answers you're asking for don't yet exist. They are so many yet undetermined variables involved in predicting the future at the range you're asking about they're all just possibilities at this point.

One of the best way to prepare for the future is to discuss with others what is possible, then make a probability map of those potential outcomes and act accordingly. Of course we don't know the answers, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask and prepare.
Clearly nobody here is claiming to be 100% accurate in their predictions. It's still a fun exercise to think about what the future will look like.
OP may well be interested in HN crowd comments and points of view and that seems acceptable to me. At the end of the day, this is HN, not S.O. Be well! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ◉‿◉
(comment deleted)
It will probably just stay the same as now. People will buy based on a perception of brand quality based on reliability, coupled with how the car looks on the inside and outside.
My point for trying start a HN discussion on this topic is exactly this: I think that "perception" will be more narrow than it is now, as all cars look more and more alike, and the quantifiable differences such as:

- range - safety features - audio system - etc - acceleration

Will be more difficult for high-end brands (Range Roger, Porsche) to use as discerning factors if the "heart" of the vehicle is largely identical between a Kia and a Porsche.

Will luxury car makers go to the way of Vertu vs. iPhone, or Omega vs. Apple Watch?

People still buy Omega and Rolex even if they don’t wear them every day. My dad uses a Fitbit instead of an Apple Watch so he can wear his nice watch and still get the data.

In the car market, the “heart” has been the same for a long time. The Honda Accord has about as luxurious (at least 90%, you get leather, great driving sensors, strong V6, etc.) of any luxury sedan under 100k, but people still buy those. Those brands mean something to people.

This is a super interesting topic to me - I basically don't consider buying anything other than a Civic. A new car is a HUGE expense to me (that I have never made in my life yet), but the more I think about it, the more ridiculous the inflation on a BMW 3-series (for example) becomes. People are genuinely paying an extra $20,000 for the badge. At least in the US, where parts, labor, and all associated costs are also more expensive on OEM imports.

The mental coping mechanism is also the fact that Honda/Toyota make a ridiculous amounts of civics/corollas/accords/camrys, so they have to have efficiencies of scale going for them more so than other company's line ups.

Once charging is widely available/reliable and the luxury makers can compete on range, it will be the same playing field as it is for non-EVs.
Yeah I was going to ask a similar question, which is for the average family sedan, I wonder how much the average person cares about anything beyond creature comforts/saftey that would also be differentiable in an EV. I doubt families are making decisions around the powertrain beyond MPGs/efficiency, which would also be differentiable by way of range
Well, there is the performance crowd who cares about RPM and dropping the clutch, but my understanding is that they are such a tiny % that companies only care for them for being able to associate good qualities of the "sports" cars with their main line.
> People will buy based on a perception of a perception of brand quality based on perception of a perception of reliability

Fixed that for you.

Consumers are fickle.

Found On Road Dead, FORD, coming to a new generation of automobile consumers!
Food for thought: https://newatlas.com/ree-modular-mobility-platform/60486/

Here's What The World's Cheapest Electric Car Is Like To Drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GG1RC7GV0Y

You can already order one of these golf-kart like cars from China for less than $5,000 shipped. An easy to mass produce skateboard platform is bound to emerge, so basically who ever has the cheapest reasonably good batteries and marketing wins.

> basically who ever has the cheapest reasonably good batteries and marketing wins

wins... the market for "cheap golf-kart like cars". But the market for "cars" extends way beyond that very narrow definition of a car.

Also interesting to note that the skateboard platform idea has been floating around for a couple decades now. GM planned a potential one when they dabbled with hydrogen fuel cell EVs back in 2002.

[0] https://www.autoblog.com/2010/09/24/forgotten-concept-2002-g...

Funny you should mention GM, they had: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagneRide

Bosch had electromagnetic car suspensions figured out 20 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KPYIaks1UY

The car industry is a perfect example of "worst is better".

The point about the cheap golf-kart car from China is about how little in terms of material costs actually goes into it. It is $5,000 shipped. In actuality it is about $2000 in parts.

The skateboard platform I linked to is already developed, they are supposedly going public this year, not just a concept.

If they can get them to pack flat (or flat-ish), they can ship quite a lot of them around the world for peanuts. Add whatever cab, wheels and branding you want to finish it off.

All of this stuff is about to become a commodity. The most, and basically only, expensive part is the battery.

At least in the next decade people are going to care about range, charge speed (measured in miles per hour, in part a measure of efficiency) and software quality.

So called super car brands will pivot to market on subjective qualities like “handling” since they can no longer complete on performance.

It seems to me that the Taycan is competing quite favorably on performance and don’t see a reason to think that will go away by virtue of everyday $35K electrics having that same level of performance.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/porsche-taycan-owner-comp...

“they were surprised to learn that Superchargers could not be used to fill up their Taycan.”

Sounds about right.

I think EU-spec Teslas use CCS so they would actually plug in (though you can't actually use them). You can also use Tesla destination chargers even in the US on any EV so I feel it's not totally unreasonable to be surprised by this.

EDIT: I incorrectly said CHAdeMO

EU Teslas use CCS, not CHAdeMO. Which makes the fact that in the US Tesla sells a CHAdeMO adaptor but not a CCS adaptor seem very strange.
Taycan is not price competitive with Model S and won’t be performance competitive when the S plaid ships this quarter.
Supercar brands have never been about being price-competitive (in some cases, they are even Veblen Goods). Very few people cross-shop Ferraris and Hondas.

I look forward to seeing the new Tesla's Nürburgring-Nordschleife time. The progress that performance EVs are making is impressive.

No doubt but they derive much of their prestige from their performance reputation which is why you see them marketing the Taycan’s 0-60 repeatability. As things progress the marketing department will increasingly struggle to come up with reasons why the electric incarnation of the brand lives up to its historical position as a prestigious good.
Maybe true for Ferrari, but Porsche's reputations isn't come from just 0-60.
The new Corvette is as fast as the 911 for half the price but that's not stopping people from buying 911s
Another data point: Tesla Model 3 Performance version will go 0-60 in 3.1 seconds (not quite as fast as the Corvette's 2.9) for $52k; about $10k less than the Corvette.
Just a small correction, Model 3 performance starts at $56k. I don't like that Tesla lists price with $4.3k in "fuel savings" subtracted out, we have to call them out on that.
Comparing something closer, the Model 3 Performance is significantly cheaper than the BMW M3.

I recall the old (pre2021 facelift) Model 3 Performance either beat or performed very competitively to its various petrol competitors (M3, C63, RS5, Guilia QF, etc.) while being significantly less expensive.

Would be interesting how the facelifted Model 3 Performance fares against the new hog-nose G80 BMW M3/4. Or the upcoming 4cylinder+electricmotor C63AMG.

Now people complain that the Model 3 doesn't have the "soul" to be a true driver's car of course.

Good point. I forgot to click the "actual price" button.
Range could be less of an issue if charge speed is fast enough.
Range needs to be a few hundred miles regardless. Nobody wants to stop and recharge every 90 minutes.

Range, charging speed, and availability of rapid charging points that is close to the availability of gas stations are all essential.

Yeah that is why I think Aptera is kind of interesting they are concentrating on maximizing range through maximizing efficiency and when you pass a certain efficiency threshold integrated solar charging becomes viable. If they make it to production I can see them being successful with people who don’t need a larger car and live in places where they can’t install a dedicated charger in their parking spot.
I have a 30 year old diesel camper van which we use once every few weeks. Being a mechanically injected diesel Toyota so it's pretty reliable, the only thing that lets it down is the battery, especially over the winter when it gets used even less frequently.

The obvious solution to this is a small solar panel to keep the battery topped up.

It had never occurred that I'd have to be very careful to park the van in an area where it has good direct sunlight (it's only a 10w panel so anything less than direct sunlight means it's barely producing enough to support the charge controller). The street in which I usually park is south facing but has tallish buildings on both sides.

The upshot of this is I can can't imagine how frustrating it would be if I was counting on the solar panels on the car contributing to its range.

> Range needs to be a few hundred miles regardless

No way. Who drives that much day to day? A little electric vehicle for commuting / errands doesn't need that kind of range if it can charge fast enough. Sure, some people need more than that, but if you're taking a handful of long trips per year, you can just rent a car with longer range for those purposes.

In the last Elon/Rogan podcast, he talked about range and said that at a certain point it really doesnt matter, because most people just end up carrying around the extra range and never using it. That number is probably around 400 miles
That depends on if I can recharge. I have driving ICE cars with 150 mile ranges, and ICE cars with 600 miles ranges - either way I just filled the tank when the gauge got down to about 1/4. This works because fast refueling exists everywhere I can think of. So long as EV chargers are rare (and sometimes broken) I need a lot of extra range to ensure I can refuel before running dry.

Of course with both of the ICE cars above I had a particular station that I mostly refueled at, because I learned who had a good price that wasn't too far out of my way. On the long trips I could just fill anywhere and so I didn't think about where I could fuel while planning a trip. EVs are easy to fill in my personal garage, but if you are going on a long trip you better plan fuel stops in advance.

Superchargers are rarer than gas stations but plentiful enough (in the US) for long trips if you mostly stick to interstates. Non-Tesla networks are also rapidly increasing in number.

Also you cannot refuel your ICE car at home or at your hotel while you sleep. This is a huge benefit to EVs that makes ICE range comparisons hard to quantify in simplistic terms.

The problem is I don't always stick to interstates. Even when I am on an interstate, there is a big difference between being able to stop every 20 miles and every 200 miles. The first means I sometimes refuel because we are at half a tank and someone needs a bathroom, while the later forces me to stop like it or not when I get to a charger.

Refueling at home is nice for when I'm home - 95% of the time. That last 5% is the topic here. Most hotels don't have a charger, and even those that do you can't be sure you can park in that spot.

presumably as more people buy electric cars (teslas), they will have to add more chargers to their network. I just drove from 5K miles down the east coast and back through middle of america in a M3 and i can attest it is very easy to filter out hotels that have chargers, and a lot more hotels have tesla chargers than I thought. I only paid $37 from NYC -> Jacksonville (via PA) because of hotel chargers.
In the long run, range could be less of an issue if we had electrified roads that allow the cars to charge while moving at freeway speeds.

(This isn't needed for all roads, just the major highways and interstates, since those are the roads where people typically are driving long distance.)

For years now, you could buy a VW Touareg, Audi Q7, or Porsche Cayenne all built on a common platform. The three vehicles are still readily distinguishable in the market and driving experience.
Haven't driven anything on that tier, but I've driven the Macan and Q5 family. Despite being on the same platform, they drive quite differently. The Macan could probably shame a lot of so-called "sports cars".

The next generation Macan is supposed to be entirely EV. I'm interested what Porsche will do to make it enjoyable to drive. As it stands my next car (this year) will probably be a Tesla Model 3 of some trim, but we'd probably be giving an EV Macan a serious look as the replacement to our CUV.

I believe cars are way less important than people think. Ride sharing and WFH goes a long way. The elephant in the room is Augmented Reality. We're not talking enough about the consequences of AR for the economy.

If I have a normal car, and I'm wearing AR, I can re-skin it with unreal engine. The most interesting technologies aren't about transportation -- they're about human augmentation, transhumanism. A car is just too big to be a great augment. If I were CEO of Apple I would take a hard pass on "Apple Car" project and focus the company on AR.

Plus, cars are expensive. Not always a great investment, or necessary

> "cars are not a necessity"

This is only potentially true in dense urban environments. Its not true in suburban and rural areas, at least in the US. The rural-to-urban transition won't occur fast enough for this to not be true for a few decades at very least.

Well, you're describing how things are today but not necessarily how they could be.

I agree with the OP's sentiment that cars are mostly not needed. We've just been hoodwinked into building in car-friendly ways instead of people-friendly ways, and so we have these spread-out, fragile, suburban areas that depend entirely on cheap oil to function (if not the gas itself, the manufacturing, maintenance, and support of cars and car infrastructure).

Instead of building too dense (skyscrapers - opposite end of the problem spectrum) or not dense enough (suburbs) we could have built mixed-use walkable neighborhoods and towns and really reduced the need to spend money on cars. But hey, Ford, GM, and Chrysler had great lobbyists back in the day, and the threat of nuclear war with the Soviets meant that getting tanks and troops from one place to another necessitated the construction of extensive highway and freeway infrastructure. Win-win for a segment of the population with specific beliefs. Now we're so used to it that we find it hard to imagine living without it.

It infuriates me whenever I talk to people and they're like "wow Europe is so walkable! You can just go to the cafe down the street." or somewhere like Mackinac Island (aside from the horse poo) where people go to vacation - it's like yea we could just build like that everywhere if we wanted to. But we're dumb and we don't think and construction and automotive jobs need subsidies to keep the economy growing.

Sure, but you can't just close a milk bottle and expect the spilled milk to come back. Good or not, we have suburbs and rural infrastructure that won't just disappear in a decade.
I do live in a suburban / rural area without a car for the last 2 years. To shop I jog or bike to the store, or order from Amazon or the grocery store...and it's been fine. Sometimes I use Uber or ride with a friend. Yeah, I'd love to have a Toyota Tacoma, but insurance/maintenance/depreciation/gas is tens of thousands of dollars I can dedicate to other things instead.
Just a little side rant on “soul” since you mentioned it in a negative sense for EVs.

The “soul” term is marketing BS like the soul patch mustang logo Ford decided to sticker on to the chin of its EV.

If you ever see one, look at the front. It’s totally got a soul patch. Eww.

As far as engine noise or rumble and that wonderful visceral feeling of the pistons and crankshaft throwing their weight around, I would agree there is something utterly cool about that. As there is of the clip-clop of a cantering horse as well. But again, calling it “soul” is just clever deceptive words that marketing came up with.

If any car has soul, it’s one where the founder poured his passion for years, nearly went bankrupt, persevered, redefined the limits, led a workforce that did the effort of a lifetime to help make the company survive and push out its most successful product that continues to be unmatched, all driven by a mission... now THAT is a story of soul.

The gas car companies want to claim the word for themselves though, just because they have a nice rumble and some fire and smoke, but more because they realize they are in trouble. Fire and smoke are romantic, no doubt, but you can’t replace that with a soul patch.

You're completely wrong on this one. You chalk a vehicle's engine-as-soul up to marketing, even though it's something that can be felt without knowing anything about the vehicle or its history. Yet you think some backstory about how it's made defines it's soul? That screams marketing. Half of the mass produced things I buy have a blurb about the backstory and passion that the founders had on the box.

I've had motorcycle engines with the following configurations (among many others): - 200cc single cylinder - 250cc single cylinder - 650cc single cylinder - 250cc two-stroke single - 500cc two-stroke single - 300cc parallel twin - 800cc parallel twin - 650cc v-twin - 1200cc opposed twin - 900cc inline triple - 650cc inline four - 1000c inline four

Every one is completely unique in how it feels, sounds, rides, and performs.

Add to that the almost innumerable number of other ancillary configurations to the above such as:

- balance shaft (or lack thereof...) - valve timing - firing order - cylinder bank angle - carbeurator vs fuel injection - diesel vs gas - naturally aspirated vs supercharger vs turbocharger - nonstandard engine types like rotary, V5, W configurations, V4 - compression ratio - two vs four cycle operation - low end torque, midrange power, top end power.

If the difference between electric motor personalities is a gap in the sidewalk, the difference between ICE engine personalities is the grand canyon.

I've never had a vehicle with more soul than a high power two stroke with a well tuned exhaust. You can't ever convince me that an exhaust with a resonant chamber tuned like a musical instrument to harness sound waves for forced induction has no soul. I've felt it. This [2] is a good animation of how the two-stroke works. No valves, powered by explosions, and a truly musical exhaust note. There's nothing else like it on the planet, and when put in a soulful body like a dirt bike it lets you know immediately.

While I disagree that the engine is the soul of he vehicle, it is definitely a huge part of it. Beigemobile econoboxes are intentionally designed to suppress the soul of the vehicle, despite how marketing likes to advertise them. Nobody's offroading or tracking their crossovers even though every commercial implies as much. The buyers of those vehicles are largely (and the commenters in this thread say as much) looking for the most generic and unsurprising vehicle possible. They are designed as much as possible to make you forget that you're in a vehicle. Even 'interesting' vehicles are being regulated into this generic future. See: Fake engine sounds being played through speakers [1].

The most different electric motors will still feel largely the same, while two mostly similar gas motors can feel completely different. Call it soul, personality, or anything else, but the future of vehicles is going to be much more bland, even if they go faster on paper.

You can't ride a motorcycle and say with a straight face that gas engines have no soul. They embrace it, they don't hide from it. There's still cars out there with souls, but they are forced to blend in for fear of losing theirs as well.

I don't really know where I'm going with this. I get that the metaphysical is frowned upon around these parts. But it definitely exists, even if we can't precisely define or measure it.

Electric is better in pretty much every metric that can be measured. And disastrous for the things that can't. Someone mentioned in this thread mentioned that vehicles are probably going to become white labeled from foxconn as electric gains traction, and I can't help but see that as the future myself. That's what it means to sell your soul.

[1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a7923/the-rise-of-the-...

[...

> I've had motorcycle engines with the following configurations (among many others): - 200cc single cylinder - 250cc single cylinder - 650cc single cylinder - 250cc two-stroke single - 500cc two-stroke single - 300cc parallel twin - 800cc parallel twin - 650cc v-twin - 1200cc opposed twin - 900cc inline triple - 650cc inline four - 1000c inline four

But have you had one with FOUR TURBOS?

https://youtu.be/NeaxbS1mNPw

That's bonkers, I love it!

I've never actually owned a motorcycle with a turbo before. It kind of scares me. I've been caught off guard by hitting the power band on a small 2-stroke many times, I can only speculate about the turbo lag on a bigger motor and it sounds kind of scary.

I enjoyed your post and the rich imagery of how you described the machines. Agree with a lot of what you said (except the part where you said I was wrong, lol).

I get that “soul” is a good word for the sounds and rumbles of the machinery and the sense of something alive that anyone feels when exposed to such things. And EVs lack that particular flavor of soul... just not other flavors. I agree we don’t have to mix this up with the supernatural notions of soul.

One key point is I’m the one —not Tesla marketing — saying Tesla (unnamed in my comment, but I think it was clear) has soul. Tesla is not saying any such thing as far as I know. Yeah not the visceral rumbling kind, but a different kind. (Not asking you to agree with me. Good thing, huh?)

Ford, on the other hand, is trying to say their EV has the “Soul of a Mustang” which I suspect both of us would agree is not really sensible as anything other than a marketing gimmick.

Manufacturers are converging and doing more platform sharing than ever, due to the massive and increasing costs of engineering a platform. So yes I think that in the future the difference between a lot of brands will be mostly be marketing.

What might be interesting is that currently new engines are a huge investment because of all the emissions compliance work, but that doesn’t seem to exist with electric drivetrains, so there might be a lot of interesting quick iteration there.

(comment deleted)
nothing, really. all technologies will be unified because apple style vendor lock-in will simply not work for this type of business/product. the analogy with LG is good because in the beginning, many companies will be jumping on the band wagon and after one or two decades of making big money, only those with lowest margins and best optimization and manufacturing efficiency will stay as the falling margins will make it not worth for most companies. from this point of view, i would say the biggest car brands will keep standing, like VW, with few niche brands for the rich and "petrol heads", like Tesla or possibly Apple where it will not be about price and value but simply about image. Oh, and some micro brands that will offer the utmost cheap cars possible for those that truly just need the utility of it and nothing else...this will most likely be Chinese brands since this is what they are good at.
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I mean, what are the differentiators for gasoline-powered cars?

Off the top of my head: brand reputation, looks, reliability, quality/roominess/aesthetics of the interior, misc. features, fuel efficiency, and obviously price.

For electric vehicles, all those same things still apply, with fuel efficiency being replaced by the range/energy density of the battery and efficiency of the motors to get more range from that battery.

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I think it will be more of the same.

Cars are already mostly sold on image. Image is the main differentiator already.

Here is what I think most people think about when buying a car: will be affordable (if you are not wealthy), the type of car (SVU, minivan, cross over, sedan, etc.), performance oriented (Mazda Zoom Zoom, or a Shelby, Mustang), whether it is ultra green/granola (Prius), Luxury (Audi, BMW, Lexus), or whether it is a high end status symbol (Porche), it is viewed as highly reliable (Toyota), and what is the resale value (Toyota.)

This will likely continue.

This.

Plus, dominance is not indefinite. One car maker will innovate, leading to better quality and/or lower prices, and will ride a wave of outsized market share, until its competitors catch up, and so on.

Even amongst cars that are very similar, image is a huge factor IMHO.

Even if someone is cross-shopping between several generic midsized family sedans (a genre that is arguably the epitome of "cars-as-a-generic-transportation-appliance"), other than significant price differences, people will probably choose the model that looks best to them.

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56 million cars sold last year. How many do you think were bought because they do not create emissions, or because of any serious consideration of the engineering behind them?

People buy a Toyota Corolla or Prius because it's below the median price, reliable and efficient. They will buy it and then never think about it again because it'll "just work."

People buy a Ford F150 because they either have some real use for a full-sized truck or, as we know is often the case, they want to feel like they are in the "big" vehicle, the "fancy" but "powerful" looking truck.

People buy a Porsche 911 because it's a symbol for having the money to throw at a fun, slightly exotic machine.

People buy a Tesla because it's a symbol of embracing the future, seeing cars as technology, and freeing them from generating exhaust and visiting gas stations.

People buy a Honda CR-V because it can do enough things well that they can just use it, fit people and stuff inside, feel safer when it snows, and so on.

People buy a Kia Soul because it's a little off the beaten path and comes in crazy colors.

Obviously the exact reasons behind each car purchase vary a little per person, but that's kind of the point. People want a car that feels like "them", and has enough practical use to justify their decision.

Automotive maker consolidation isn't new, just like any other industry, and it certainly would leave many unhappy if the options narrowed severely, because there are different use cases and preferences out there. For now, the market is so big that Toyota can have 6 different SUVs that are all slightly different, and you can configure a Ford F150 about a million different ways. (Though with colors converging back on black, white and gray, we're nearly back to the days of "You can have it any color, as long as it is black."

Thanks for writing what I couldn't figure out how to put into words.

I'll add one more thing: there are enough cars sold that there is enough market to support developing lots of different cars.

What is interesting is seeing the market contract in recent years. After 2008, a lot of car companies killed their performance models or lines off entirely, despite the bull run presumably adding more money in peoples pocket in years since. Car manufactureres are realizing they don't need to develop a lot of cars. That it's a bad business decision to build a 400hp turbocharged mitsubishi lancer and sell it to the tiny market of 30 year olds with money for a $45k car but no children to keep their sense in check, if the average consumer by and large just wants an SUV to go the grocery store. Some manufacturers like Ford don't even really sell sedans anymore, so it goes beyond even just performance cars to anything that isn't a 30mpg $24,000 sport utility box.
There's an ongoing joke about every time a manufacturer announces/releases a new performance car:

Internet car enthusiasts: "What an awesome car! It's RWD, great power, stick shift, awesome handling! It's going to sell amazingly well! I'm definitely going to buy one......."

".....used in five years!"

Meanwhile all the consumers that buy (or more often these days, lease) new cars are snapping up FWD (or FWD biased AWD) 4cylinder automatic CUVs.

I think several of your categories nailed what the vast majority of car owners are looking for: an transportation appliance. This is where I think EVs will eventually dominate the market, the only thing you will have to worry about is plugging it in. The simplicity of the electric drive train will make them even more reliable (and efficient) than the best gas vehicles today. No more oil changes. No more random fluid leaks on your driveway. No more mornings where you are late for work because your car wouldn't start or you forgot you had to stop and fill up with gas on the way to work.
That last point might still be the case. Forget to plug your car in overnight and suddenly you don't have enough mileage to get to work. Not everyone will have access at home to a fast charger so the option will be to slow charge over a 110V extension cord or go wait at a public charger that might be a little out of the way from your commute.

I'm definitely ready for an EV but my car sits in a parking lot at home (for at least a couple more years) rather than a driveway or garage and my work has no chargers. It seems kind a dumb decision right now to purchase an EV only to rely on availability public charging stations. I guess that's kind of what I do now with regards to filling up on gas, I don't own my own gas pump at home. But, I know where to reliably find fuel that I can pay for. Maybe gas stations can start to offer charging stations for a small fee. They would be competing with grocery stores that offer free charging but I'd imagine the free part will go away quickly once there is major demand for a public charger.

> No more mornings where you are late for work because your car wouldn't start

That sounds very optimistic. Don't forget that these new cars are increasingly powered by software!

That seems to equally be the case for both ICE and electric vehicles, so I don't think you're worse off going electric if that's your concern.
Sounds like Apple products.
Software, charging networks, brands, and design.
Economically, important competitive factors will be: Access to resources required to build batteries (e.g. mining rights), battery manufacturing capacity, location of manufacturing plants (as regulation on energy footprint is sensitive to the energy mix used in manufacturing and shipping). In terms of business success, making the right decisions on these strategic factors will likely matter just as much as designing appealing products and implementing them well.

Geopolitics will matter: People and their governments will find further regulation appealing also because it can be a tool to drive local employment in manufacturing and related business. If a car manufactured in China, or using batteries manufactured in China, has an inherently worse CO2 footprint for a European consumer (because of the coal-heavy energy mix in China and the energy footprint of shipping to Europe) and this is penalized by regulations, you get factories in Europe as a result. This build-out will take some decades to settle, and there may yet be new tech surprises along the way that change the game.

As for car tech itself becoming a commodity - this has been the case for a long time already, even with ICE technology. Automotive supply chains are famously broad, long and overlapping between OEMs. Bob Lutz (GM, BMW, Chrysler, ...) said in 2015 "There are no bad cars anymore, only bad designs".

There's still tech competition for sure, and it's fun to follow - the Mercedes EQS will outdo the Model S in most respects and raise the bar of what's possible with an EV, heating things up a bit at the top end. Progress continues, egged on by regulations if nothing else, and by consumers seeking the best value for their money. But if you don't sweat the details, the good-enough options are plentiful.

I think a lot of the “it’s already commodified” comments are belied by the differences of reliability and cost of ownership across brands. That’s a differentiator and may continue into the EV future, as you can see how different they are just in the reviews and characteristics of current EV models. Range, weight and electronics do produce pretty different products.. it’s not just motors and batteries and over-the-air updates.
I don't think you're wrong, but I think there's at least some hope that differences in reliability will shrink as a result of the electrification as well.

It's a simpler power train with fewer moving parts, requiring less maintenance and replacing of parts. Recuperative breaking means less break pad wear, etc.

Of course there's other stuff emerging, like costly screen replacements and we're yet to fully appreciate how the batteries will age, and what the second-hand market will be like at scale.

There's probably first interesting data on the Tesla and other EV fleets and the maintenance averages for their customers ...

Beyond this of course you can't cheat physics. Structural engineering stays the same, material wear still happens and some car designs (or even form factors) are simply less sound than others in terms of their effects on the expected usable lifetime of a car. With EVs that matters significantly, because of the high upfront energy cost to manufacturing them - you have to drive them for a while for them to really make sense.

I guess we can conclude that automotive will probably stay as interesting as any other business. Cars are a choke-point of doing high-tech yet industrially manufacturing at scale, the baked-in conflicts make it an interesting challenge.

>belied by the differences of reliability and cost of ownership across brands.

But these differences are razor thin compared to consumer perceptions of them.

For every fanboy on Reddit screeching about muh million mile 4Runner he leased for 36k there's a fleet manager who just spent an afternoon reviewing records and crunching numbers before confirming that yes we are going to buy another round of Pacificas as our current ones hit the "old enough it's not the image we want to project" threshold.

Compare the lap times of boring commuter sedans and compacts to the "sporty" and "good handling" sedans and compacts if you really want to see slim differences.

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I think a significant factor will be offering good ICE car trade ins. At some point the second hand market for ICE vehicles is going to tank. Maybe there will be government schemes/subsidies for giving up ICE vehicles, but otherwise it could be a factor.
Range, charging stations, self-driving, self-parking, accident-avoidance, voice-recognition interface, 5g bandwidth, work-from-car-mode, face-recognition to start vehicle, automatic police recording, insurance-integration, { any software thing you can think of }
> What will be the future differentiator in electric vehicles?

I'm afraid there will be none.

Hull shape, and the battery size is pretty much the only thing existing EVs differ from each other.

Mechanically, they are all very, very simple. Simpler than any IC car.

Compact wishbone suspension is used on pretty much every one of them, since all EVs are city cars, and you want as much space for batteries as possible, and as lower centre of mass as possible

And since all EVs are very heavy, you don't have much innovations in body design either, it just needs to be very strong, and very rigid to securely accommodate the battery pack.

This way the vision of "White Label, off the shelf cars" produced by some Foxconn like maker swallowing the market is very much real.

>Hull shape, and the battery size is pretty much the only thing existing EVs differ from each other.

That seems like a strange thing to say.

We see front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive electric vehicles on the road today, driven by 1, 2 or 3 motors. We've seen designs (I don't think any of them are in production yet) with 4 motors - one for each wheel.

There's about an order of magnitude difference between the horsepower in a Renault Zoe and a top-of-the-line Tesla Model S.

Not all EVs use the same suspension either - Tesla's S and X use an air suspension, and Jaguar offers air suspension on the I-Pace as well.

I certainly agree that taking the ICE out of the vehicle takes away one of the big differentiators between car brands, but I think expecting there to be no differentiators between EVs seems pretty silly. There will always be cheaper, simpler models and more expensive, extravagant models. There will always be innovators trying new features, some of which will succeed and trickle down to other cars, and some of which will be expensive curiosities.

> We see front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive electric vehicles on the road today, driven by 1, 2 or 3 motors. We've seen designs (I don't think any of them are in production yet) with 4 motors - one for each wheel.

This differentiation is superfluous with EVs, and I believe we will not see this living much longer.

There is not much differentiation besides linear cost/performance progression.

Motors? Suspension? Horsepower? All basically more money for bigger motor, hp, and performance.

Maybe, but I feel like you could say the same about ICE cars. In general, throw more money at the car, get a bigger, more powerful engine.

There's probably still room for different approaches. Dodge seems to be known for cheap power - you can get a Challenger with a ton of horsepower for way less than say, a Porsche with equivalent horsepower. The Challenger is still based on the Challenger that was released in 2008 (Dodge gets more for their design money by using designs longer) and won't be appointed with interior materials that feel as nice.

Future Dodge might do the same - "let's make the most powerful electric coupe we can for $40k!" as opposed to something like "let's make a nice, comfortable, safe, well-rounded car for $40k".

> This differentiation is superfluous with EVs, and I believe we will not see this living much longer.

Am I understanding your statement correctly? Are you implying that FWD/RWD/AWD doesn't matter for an EV? Because from a handling and safety perspective, it matters just as much in an EV as it does in an ICE.

Yes, EVs are predominantly city cars. Very heavy, and low-central centre of gravity.

Nobody will be racing them, otherwise the stability provided by weight should be very good.

However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models.

Okay, this is only true if you live in a warm and dry climate and don't have a lead foot.

> However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models.

FWD cars are far more stable than RWD. This is important when driving in the rain as it helps lessen the likelihood of hydroplaning. Non-performance cars aren't just FWD because it's cheaper than RWD to make, but because they're safer.

And if you live in a climate with a lot of snow, you'll definitely want AWD.

> However, I don't see a real reason for FWD electric cars other than those being retrofit models.

As I said, safety. Yes, the traction control in an EV works amazing, arguably better than an ICE, but even better is a drivetrain setup that reduces the need for it entirely.

> FWD cars are far more stable than RWD. This is important when driving in the rain as it helps lessen the likelihood of hydroplaning. Non-performance cars aren't just FWD because it's cheaper than RWD to make, but because they're safer.

No, when your centre of mass is not that engine block you don't get any of those benefits. FWD vehicles would otherwise be less stable than RWD because of having to fight the pendulum effect.

Remember, economic FWD only became possible thanks to computers both for nailing the best dynamic characteristics on design stage, and helping with dynamic control. That's why FWD were much more crashier before early-mid-nineties.

If there was an option to disable all safety electronics on a modern FWD car, most people would've decided against them in an instant after the first test drive.

What about improved battery tech, Weight distribution, Software updates, Safety equipment, internal computers, in car entertainment, in-wheel motors, drive-train connections to electronic towing, theft deterrence ?
> What about improved battery tech?

We haven't seem much improvement on the market since second gen ternary hit. All coming improvements will be very gradual.

Cars on the market already hit possible upper/lower weight, and size limits for the battery pack.

> Weight distribution

Any other than low, and centre?

> Software updates

Do you want to play videogames on your car? Will you pay few thousand dollars more for a UI skin update once a year?

> in-wheel motors

May be, but that will only work towards killing the differentiation even more, at least in the low end.

Rather than debate each of these, you have agreed that there is a difference just nothing that you specifically care about.

> Will you pay few thousand dollars more for a UI skin update once a year?

What ? no.. I never said that these were paid updates, I said this was differentiator. Do you want security updates ? Or just to have the software abandoned once it ships.

What is happening to EVs now will not stay constrained to the vehicle itself. We're seeing innovations in terms of integrations - with CarPlay/AndroidAuto, Phone-as-key, wifi APs, surveillance, etc. All of these things are new and have little to do with what is beneath the sheet metal and plastic body panels.

There are also interesting innovations that become more possible as more and more vehicles become "smart" and connected - imagine a metro area that is influencing smart vehicles +/- a few kph to smooth traffic, or route vehicular traffic like networking traffic around outages/problems.

The differentiator(s) won't be ways to make tires spin around an axle differently.

> There are also interesting innovations that become more possible as more and more vehicles become "smart" and connected - imagine a metro area that is influencing smart vehicles +/- a few kph to smooth traffic, or route vehicular traffic like networking traffic around outages/problems.

And this "differentiation" will be easily retrofitted to every other vehicle since there is nothing inherent to vehicle construction that is required for that.

Well, the idea itself is not bad, and I'd see this being as the one, and only way any form of "self" driving will appear — as some kind of centralised "air traffic control" for car traffic, instead of each car doing the very fragile SLAM based navigation, and complex sensor suite based driving, which is one dirt splat away from the crash all the time.

Not necessarily - think Waze GPS. That was pretty unique and innovative. Traffic data + crowd sourced real-time inputs let Waze uniquely route your path.

Imagine a Tesla cuts your average commute from 30 to 10 minutes, while you AFK and enjoy your coffee, vs the Ford vehicles that can let you AFK and enjoy your coffee, but you're still getting there 30 minutes on average. These kinds of "fringe" innovations are going to explode I think and even if they aren't innovative, they will help differentiate.

I don't know a ton about electric vehicles, but I do know you can go a long way without a technological differentiator. Variations in materials, design, name brand, and marketing have sustained the fashion industry for quite a while. What's the difference between two pairs or shoes, or two pairs of pants? One isn't fundamentally more advanced then the other, yet there are winners and losers in that industry.
Even with ICEs we kinda are there already. Surprisingly many cars are mostly same underneath, but hull, interior etc. are different. I don't see why same won't apply to EVs.
If someone can get full self driving and patents it, they’ll have the market. Software is where we are seeing most innovation right now. Self parking, 3D surround cameras, accident avoidance, auto lane change, etc.

I think you’re correct that there will be less appeal from a technical performance perspective to buy an individual brand. All EVs have fast enough acceleration (some dangerously so.) So competition there is not going to continue. The new monstrous Hummer from GM has 0-60 times that rival super cars from a few years back.

There’s still some room for competition on handling, but eventually the skateboards will all have very similar suspensions.

So I believe we’re left with aesthetics, material choices, secondary features, and brand appeal. Are your vegan leather air conditioned seats hand stitched? Are your steerable headlights auto dimming with infrared vision?

I think you can break it down to:

1) Price

2) Reliability

3) Self driving

The first 2 are already standard.

Self driving will be a mix of capability and safety record. The latter being more important I suspect. There will be endless websites reviewing which one is the safest. And when you choose a robot to let you drive that is going to be a massive part of the equation. Even if accidents are extremely rare across all platforms, social media will make accidents feel far more common than they are + they will likely be for stupid 'human avoidable' error. This will drive fear, one of the most powerful marketing tools out there.

I fully expect self driving to be regulated to the point where it's more or less adaptive cruise control. At which point it will be as ho hum on the feature list as cruise control today. Because lets be honest, this is mission critical software being written by bleary eyed, sleep deprived kids fresh out of school, ultimately, and these companies would prefer to keep it this way in order to "move fast and break things" and maximize profit. In this case, I'd rather not be the one broken. Someone else can beta test your for profit software and be the unfortunate name in the next tragic newspaper article.

As self driving becomes commonplace we will see deaths go up both actual, and the coverage around deaths as you note. Building safer software that receives input from a chaotic, random, ever changing, heterogeneous world is a much harder problem than a lawmaker stepping up to regulate self driving and becoming the public hero of the story in the process. Personally, I also think there are more important problems for these engineering minds to be working on.

All EVs have fast enough acceleration (some dangerously so.) So competition there is not going to continue.

I'm less sure about that. I think it will remain a distinctive feature that people will actively choose for or against, at least.

The new Mini EV from BMW (and which is replacing the i3 as BMW's 'flagship' EV) has only 0-60 in 7s which is not very interesting at all. But they're not aiming at the performance crowd (plus it can only do about 150 miles on a charge). Meanwhile Tesla can boast sub 5s 0-60 in almost every vehicle so anyone who wants that "slammed into the seat"/"first away from the lights" experience will still lean towards them.

A sub 5s 0-60 will be a selling point for me when it's time to go electric. If I must go electric, I want some dopamine-inducing benefit for it, and beating the remaining petrol cars off the lights will be a big selling point for me even if I'm buying a 7 seater SUV or whatever ;-)

From what I understand(I could be mistaken) BMW reused the i3 drivetrain in the Mini. While its impressive that they squeezed it into a smaller car, it shows their lack of seriousness that they reused 2013-ish technology in their newest EV. Given this, is it any surprise that the range, acceleration and other metrics are lacking compared to what else is on the market?
My father has a 2015 i3, and it's more than fast enough off the line- my Bolt is the same way even though they are both 6+ sec 0-60. EVs have instant torque and in fact are a bit scary to me as both the i3 and Bolt have small wheels.
Some people think 6+ is "more than fast enough" and others want the thrill of 3.5 seconds. There are enough people in the second group to keep manufacturers making cars for them.
Your point is true, except that you will go electric, whether you do it for dopamine hit or not. The technology is strongly pointing to the complete and utter obsolescence of gasoline in a matter of only a few more years. Arguably gasoline is already obsolete and riding the very long tail of awareness of transition. Gasoline is still dominating in the cheapest sectors (of American auto sales, not true in China), but as cheaper electric models arrive and the used market continues to swell with good used electrics, that sector too will fall, and gasoline will be relegated to the old and the unusual.

So if you want to be beating people off the line, you better get into electric now, because the roads are filling up with 'em and quick!

Do you seriously think is 0-60 matter for average buyer? Charging equipment at home should be the primary concern that should be solved.
Most people won't fork over an extra 10k for a 2s faster 0 - 60 i guess.
I don't have the numbers to hand, but when marques like BMW and Mercedes offer higher trim levels with bigger engines and more performance, they seem to sell better than you'd expect given how much you're paying for a slight performance boost.
Will a company be able to claim a carte blanche patent over self-driving?
Maybe, but probably not. Most auto manufactures are doing a partnership. So you might see the Ford self driving car that locks out GM, but Ford is already known to be working with VW on self driving cars: in this case Ford and VW would both have self driving cars at about the same time using that patent. Ford and VW both have interest in a number of other companies as well that we can expect to be brought into this partnership quickly.

Cross licensing is fairly common in cases like this as well. Every car company has enough R&D as to produce some interesting patents. Want our more comfortable seats in your luxury car - give us good terms for your patent and we will give you good terms.

It isn't unheard of for companies to automatically freely license safety related patents. (someone who doesn't die in a competitors car might buy your car next time) So there is another option that might happen.

The above assumes there actually is a breakthrough that is patentable. If all we need is a large enough machine learning data set - those are easy enough to create (just very tedious), and so there are not patents to take out. If your system depends on some sensor - there are lots of different ways to make a sensor and work around the patent.

The idea of self driving has been around for long enough that you can't patent it. There is plenty of prior work to cite. Companies have been known to be working on it long enough that any idea patents would have expired before now.

Damn, I'm going to miss the $15 refurbished slightly-obsolete LG smartphones that I buy from TracFone.

For me, a car is an appliance. It's a nuisance when it costs money. It's a nuisance when it breaks. It's good when it sits there and does nothing (other than taking up space), or gets me from A to B.

If I could get the equivalent of the $15 refurbished LG phone, in an electric car, I'd buy it. It has to be big enough to carry a double bass, no bigger.

Let's see what the younger generation thinks. I have two kids in college. They are both mostly ambivalent about cars. The car makers may be in a kind of last gasp, trying to appeal to those of us who can afford a new car before we're too old to drive.

From my standpoint, it will be interesting to see how things shake out when decent reliability data become available.