In my old league, you earned a "patch" if u picked up a 7-10. I've seen it done once over about 40 years. Our lane went nuts when the guy picked it up.
Of course! We were in a league of about 18 people and when a guy made this everyone bought him a shot. I do remember him sharing though and being driven home. It was talked about for months afterwards and the local paper did a story on it.
No, much easier. You can deflect off the 1 into the 7 and pick up the 10 with the 1 pin. It’s not bad, for the 10 you might pass the 1 in front of it, but it’s very doable, and not nearly impossible.
If we're sharing crazy rare stuff from other sports I present from international cricket: A bowler achieving a hatrick (3 dismissals in consecutive deliveries - very rare) and also getting hit for 6 Sixes in an over later in the same game. [0] 6 Sixes in an over has only been done 3 times in international cricket. It represents the maximum return for a batter from an over (without no-balls or wides).
I’m surprised it never happens because it seems as though the spin of the ball and velocity of collision would send the pin across more frequently than 3 times in 30 years from the top professionals.
I'd hazard to guess it's more a factor of "professional bowlers try not to end up in the situation they need to pull off a 7-10 split" over how difficult it is to pull off once they're in that scenario.
If you watch the Wired video, note that we can't program a bowling robot to convert the 7-10 split either. So while it's definitely true that professional bowlers will seek to avoid sticking themselves with a 7-10 split, the reason they're avoiding it is that it's impossible to pick up the spare.
If you have a 7-10 split, generally you will want to pick up the one point (almost guaranteed) instead of trying for a trick shot that is almost a guaranteed gutter ball. So unless someone is down and needs to pick up the spare, or unless it is totally by accident, most 7-10 split conversion aren't attempted.
This was my impression, too, until I watched the video linked elsewhere in this thread [1]. Frankly, we were wrong. Your reasoning holds for why certain splits aren't converted (eg, the Greek split, as explained in the video), but that's not the reason 7-10 splits are almost never converted.
Essentially, 7-10 splits are rarely converted because they're virtually impossible. In fact, the only reason they can be converted is because it's possible for the pin to bounce off the machinery -- it would be impossible for a human to throw a ball such that the pin flew 90 deg from impact towards the other pin. Notice that a rubber (?) mat protects the machinery behind the pins, thereby removing energy from the collision and making the shot even more difficult.
So even with skill, the shot still boils down to almost entirely luck. Moreover, the strategy for hitting a 7-10 split isn't much different from just hitting a single pin; the only difference when attempting to convert the split is the amount of force the bowler applies on the ball (apply as much force as possible). The shot really is just that difficult.
Thanks for the rec- the article really evoked some emotion in me. Can't imagine the pressure of the last few rolls and the article touches some interesting philosophy
Thanks, that was a surprisingly informative video! I'll admit my initial impression when watching the 7-10 conversion was to think "So what? All he did was bounce the pin off the machinery! It was just a lucky shot." My perspective flipped once I understood that bouncing the pin off the machinery is a requirement for conversion.
Incidentally, I once witnessed a 7-10 conversion, though the technique was quite a bit different from the technique employed by the professional. Rather than striking one of the pins with as much force as possible, the bowler accidentally launched the ball a few feet into the air such that the ball's quake, upon reunion with terra firma, caused one of the pins to fall over, with the second pin falling when the ball miraculously managed to strike it.
The video made me curious about the Greek Church strategy. As described:
- 60% of professional frames are strikes.
- The Greek Church is rarely converted because bowlers prefer to go for "count", maximizing the number of pins they knock down in the second half of the frame. You can take a basically 100% chance of 3 pins, or a lower chance of 5 pins.
- Those 3 pins are worth 3 points, or 6 points if you bowled a strike last frame.
- Converting the Greek Church is not unachievable. The robot got it 40% of the time.
Assumptions:
- If you pick up the spare, you have a 60% chance of bowling a strike next frame, and a 40% chance of bowling a gutter ball for 0 pins. This is worth 5+6 points. (5 for the pins required to pick up the spare, and 6 for the 60% chance of 10 pins on the next shot you take.)
- If you attempt to pick up the spare, you have some chance of succeeding, and otherwise, you'll hit 1 pin.
- If you don't even attempt to pick up the spare, you always hit 3 pins.
Under those assumptions, you're better off trying to get the spare if your success rate is more than 20% (and you didn't bowl a strike last frame), or if it's more than 29% and you did get a strike last frame. And picking up the spare only becomes more valuable if, during the 40% of frames when you don't bowl a strike, you do still hit some pins in the first half of the frame.
The professional bowler took 12 tries to convert a Greek Church. That implies a success rate well below where it would make sense to try to convert. But it might also reflect a lack of practice. If practice could get you to double that rate, it seems like people should be converting Greek Churches all the time.
The bias (I wish they used that word) between the 7-10 split and the Greek Church was a good, practical example of how you have to be careful with stats.
I converted it a dozen times as teenager. Once, it happened twice in a single game. A big caveat is that, I was playing ~50 games a week from age 13-15 when there was a promotion that let members of two leagues play unlimited free practice games.
I used a 16lb ball, threw just over 20mph with as little hook as possible and tried to hit the 10 pin in such a way as to send it near the corner of the pit. At least on those lanes back then, that lead to a high percentage (maybe 15%) bouncing out of the pit. Occassionally that bounce would get the 7.
Even in the 90s, 7-10s were significantly harder in professional play due to their using heavier pins than you'd see in normal league or practice games.
The new pin screens shown in this video make it look like the 7-10 probably is now even another five times harder to convert than it already was!
I totally agree with the last part, too. In all those free practice games I bowled as a teenager, I never converted a single 4-6, "big four" or a "Greek church".
13-15 years old? Sheesh. Those sweet years but with free golfing.
Managed a couple of hole-in-ones on a decent golf course this way.
Too bad that I literally outgrew that sport.
Golf always seemed interesting but more expensive and I don't think I knew a single kid who played when I was that age. I started bowling at ten and gradually got more into it until practice became free a few years later.
There does seem to be a fantastic window for improving at sports in that age range. Or maybe it's just that people have time at that age before homework loads and school activities increase a few years later.
It's interesting the shot made recently in the twitter vid was different to how they described it working in the youtube in that in the youtube they suggested the pin would bounce of the curtain at the back whereas in the twitter vid it bounces off the side wall.
I picked up a 7-10 in birthday party bowling once, it's more or less blind luck, you need a carom out of the pit that happens to bounce the pin into the opposite corner.
Also - they still have bowling on TV!? This feels straight out of the 1970s.
Yeah, I've done it once each from both outside the 7 (spin made it bounce in the gutter, managed to jump out just enough to bump the 7, which scooted over to fall onto the 10 and tip it) and inside (like this clip has, bouncing off the wall).
I average about 130 per game. Mine were definitely not due to skill, just number of games - I grew up close enough to a $1/game-on-Thursdays alley, and my family went to it a lot for a few years.
I'm kinda boggled that this isn't on camera more often tbh. Maybe 7/10s are just a lot less likely for professionals? My rate of them has seemed to go down as I started throwing faster.
Same story here. Mostly 140s bowler as a kid, though I did hit 190+ a couple times. My one and only "make" of the 7-10 happened when I kissed the outside side of the (whatever pin is on the right) as my ball fell into the gutter. The pin slid to the left and fell into the other pin, knocking it over.
At a friend's birthday party in the early 90s (10th or 11th birthday, I believe), he picked up a 7-10 split after his dad bet him $50 he couldn't do it. Fortunately dad was smart enough to be ready with the camera to catch the reaction, just in case.
Too bad that there isn't special scoring in bowling for the difficulty of a shot. Picking up the 7-10 spare should be an automatic win of the tournament instead of just the points you normally get from a spare.
But then a 7-10 split is worth more than simply taking out all the pins in the first place with a strike. Indeed a strike gets more points than a spare.
I grew up in a family of bowlers and have bowled as a hobby and professionally. This is really hard and almost complete luck. I’ve seen the 7-10 made by sliding the 10 pin across left and also deflecting it off the back drop. I’ve never seen it by going after the 7 pin. The physics here is just amazing.
There can even be benefit from using a ball that has a high shine or a very hard ball to cut down on the oil reacting with the ball and lessening the hook.
54 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 57.3 ms ] threadI instinctively replace the "en" normally as well as I am not sure if it is appropriate for every user.
Then I test it after posting.
Aside, it’s so nice to have sports being played again!
[0] https://www.cricket.com.au/news/match-report/kieron-pollard-...
Essentially, 7-10 splits are rarely converted because they're virtually impossible. In fact, the only reason they can be converted is because it's possible for the pin to bounce off the machinery -- it would be impossible for a human to throw a ball such that the pin flew 90 deg from impact towards the other pin. Notice that a rubber (?) mat protects the machinery behind the pins, thereby removing energy from the collision and making the shot even more difficult.
So even with skill, the shot still boils down to almost entirely luck. Moreover, the strategy for hitting a 7-10 split isn't much different from just hitting a single pin; the only difference when attempting to convert the split is the amount of force the bowler applies on the ball (apply as much force as possible). The shot really is just that difficult.
---
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26786469
Only the tournament finals are televised. There are hundreds of games bowled to get to 4 tv matches.
I'd think the 7-10 is probably converted once every tournament or two. (It's mostly luck, and a by-product of great ball speed.)
Also, the 30 for 30 "the bad boy of bowling" on Pete Weber
"Why It’s Almost Impossible to Make a 7-10 Split in Bowling | WIRED"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMoSsCDgZys
Incidentally, I once witnessed a 7-10 conversion, though the technique was quite a bit different from the technique employed by the professional. Rather than striking one of the pins with as much force as possible, the bowler accidentally launched the ball a few feet into the air such that the ball's quake, upon reunion with terra firma, caused one of the pins to fall over, with the second pin falling when the ball miraculously managed to strike it.
- 60% of professional frames are strikes.
- The Greek Church is rarely converted because bowlers prefer to go for "count", maximizing the number of pins they knock down in the second half of the frame. You can take a basically 100% chance of 3 pins, or a lower chance of 5 pins.
- Those 3 pins are worth 3 points, or 6 points if you bowled a strike last frame.
- Converting the Greek Church is not unachievable. The robot got it 40% of the time.
Assumptions:
- If you pick up the spare, you have a 60% chance of bowling a strike next frame, and a 40% chance of bowling a gutter ball for 0 pins. This is worth 5+6 points. (5 for the pins required to pick up the spare, and 6 for the 60% chance of 10 pins on the next shot you take.)
- If you attempt to pick up the spare, you have some chance of succeeding, and otherwise, you'll hit 1 pin.
- If you don't even attempt to pick up the spare, you always hit 3 pins.
Under those assumptions, you're better off trying to get the spare if your success rate is more than 20% (and you didn't bowl a strike last frame), or if it's more than 29% and you did get a strike last frame. And picking up the spare only becomes more valuable if, during the 40% of frames when you don't bowl a strike, you do still hit some pins in the first half of the frame.
The professional bowler took 12 tries to convert a Greek Church. That implies a success rate well below where it would make sense to try to convert. But it might also reflect a lack of practice. If practice could get you to double that rate, it seems like people should be converting Greek Churches all the time.
I converted it a dozen times as teenager. Once, it happened twice in a single game. A big caveat is that, I was playing ~50 games a week from age 13-15 when there was a promotion that let members of two leagues play unlimited free practice games.
I used a 16lb ball, threw just over 20mph with as little hook as possible and tried to hit the 10 pin in such a way as to send it near the corner of the pit. At least on those lanes back then, that lead to a high percentage (maybe 15%) bouncing out of the pit. Occassionally that bounce would get the 7.
Even in the 90s, 7-10s were significantly harder in professional play due to their using heavier pins than you'd see in normal league or practice games.
The new pin screens shown in this video make it look like the 7-10 probably is now even another five times harder to convert than it already was!
I totally agree with the last part, too. In all those free practice games I bowled as a teenager, I never converted a single 4-6, "big four" or a "Greek church".
There does seem to be a fantastic window for improving at sports in that age range. Or maybe it's just that people have time at that age before homework loads and school activities increase a few years later.
Also - they still have bowling on TV!? This feels straight out of the 1970s.
[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sport-bowling-edison-feat...
I average about 130 per game. Mine were definitely not due to skill, just number of games - I grew up close enough to a $1/game-on-Thursdays alley, and my family went to it a lot for a few years.
I'm kinda boggled that this isn't on camera more often tbh. Maybe 7/10s are just a lot less likely for professionals? My rate of them has seemed to go down as I started throwing faster.
edit: typo
There can even be benefit from using a ball that has a high shine or a very hard ball to cut down on the oil reacting with the ball and lessening the hook.
Is this just a repercussion of most people being right-handed?
It's actually kind of difficult to make this sentence not ambiguous without adding a bunch of words or subtracting meaning.
"The first 7-10 split converted on TV in 30 years is by an 18-year-old bowler." is the best I've got, and it feels passive.
> Bowling is hard on the looks.
Harsh, but hilarious.