In Medium's defense, the idea is that, if you want to go ad-free while still being able to pay content creators anything at all, you need some other revenue source, and, as far as I can tell, the only other option that's seen any success at scale is paywalls. There's a pretty direct in, in one breath, complaining about paying for authors' work, and also complaining that authors don't get paid enough for their work.
(Before someone mentions Patreon or Tippee - both of those are platforms for erecting paywalls.)
That shouldn't really be a surprise, or even criticism-worthy. "HN" isn't a single mind, it's a website where $BIGNUM people with myriad different opinions and takes on things all run their mouths, usually pseudonymously.
The closest analogy I can think of right now is panhandling.
It isn't a solution to the problem, at best, it is a bandaid. I don't like it, but I don't want it banned. I wish I could think of something realistic and better, but can't.
At least panhandlers don't have a platform eating some large percentage of the take.
I mean I kind of understand what he is saying (altho in an inappropriate way). It is likely for your own good to minimize screentime. However most people are still using their phone when bored. So you're either annoying people "glued to their screen" or you are the only one without doing it which yields you not much.
It's a bit boring, but I think both points are valid. If you are not looking up you probably miss the opportunity, but opportunities are still very slim.
I think that's depression. I'm guessing these tips are more for the technically lonely, which is probably a much higher number in the past due to WFH and quarantines.
That's not true at all. Also, historically, there's been a trend of attributing negative things to depression. I've read John Cacioppo's work (here's an interview: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/04/how-lonel...), and as far as I know it's both scientifically well-founded and at least somewhat actionable.
I would agree about attributing too much to depression. I'm not saying depression isn't real, but there's a motivator to attribute things to it because it creates more customers for pills that will allegedly fix it.
As someone who has depression (via bipolar), this over-attribution is real and it hurts those who actually need help. Medication is literally a life-saver for me but no one should be taking it if they don't need it.
That just isn’t true. Meeting a stranger, realizing you enjoy their company, trading contact info, deciding to spend “structured?” time together. This is most of my friendships and all of my relationships after university.
Only the first meeting has to be incidental. Expecting all future contact to be incidental is how you let all could-be friendships and relationships pass right through your fingers.
I met a very good friend of mine in line at a restaurant. I'd argue it all comes down to your mindset - I'm not even that extraverted. At least in the midwest this is incredibly doable and common.
I totally hear you, although for me having a positive human interaction, even if it's just saying hey to the barista, or sharing an idle observation with a stranger while sitting in a park or at a beach somewhere, always brightens my day. It sounds so damn cliche, I know, but it's undeniable.
Well, your facetious advice is correct. Just switch the order. Talk to people -> build social skills -> talk to everyone -> find yourself in new friendships and relationships.
Just consider the fact that if you’re lonely, doing more of the same isn’t going to help you. It’s easy to be dismissive, but you’re going to have to push your comfort zone to find change.
The trouble I have is that you have to start with a certain selfishness of wanting to improve your social skills even if it makes other people's days worse.
Like I'm not the most charismatic guy, and I know that if I try to make any sort of non-trivial conversation with someone I don't know well I will make them uncomfortable. Men will be bored or think I'm crazy, women will think I'm hitting on them, and I don't really feel comfortable using them as guinea pigs for my social development.
I'm all for pushing past my personal comfort zone to better myself, but when my self-improvement comes at the expense of others I can't help but hesitate.
A bit of small talk with (for instance) the mail man or the cashier every once in a while, adds up to a sort of superficial relationship over time. I would be loathe to say to say that this offers a "fix" for loneliness, but I also wouldn't trivialise the value of these types of relationships.
Being alone and far away from other people turns us somewhat savage. That's why these superficial interactions help, they are akin to walking around as a minimum type of movement one should do before it becomes a serious problem that requires a lot more effort to get out of.
I feel that getting into the habit of small-talk can long-term reduce loneliness (not fix it necessarily) because the human brain is wired to feel some benefit when interacting with other humans or even being in the presence of other humans. That's why, eg. even though writing is a fairly solitary action, writers are often stereotyped as constantly being in ambiently social places like bars and coffee shops. You may genuinely feel less lonely when you're ambiently in the environment of other humans for whatever reason.
This is why I exercise at the gym instead of at home. I don't really know anyone at the gym (nor do I really make an effort to), but I recognize faces and get some motivation from being in a place with others who are all there for the same purpose. Just riding a stationary bike or lifting weights at home by myself is not a habit I have ever been able to develop.
I agree with this. I'd have periods of times where I'd feel super lonely and I'd go out and meet new people through group events introduced by friends or whatever. However usually it ends up feeling like a waste of time. It sounds super elitist but I'm rarely impressed by new people I meet and usually the ones I meet seem so different I'm not even sure I really even want to know them better. It seems super contradictory and sometimes I'd go home feeling worse
Anecdotally, people in solitary confinement become desperate for even the most mundane of social interactions. This implies there is some psychological need for them.
It took me a long time to understand that a lot of people use small talk to filter out crazy people. You have to pass the small talk test to be allowed to have meaningful conversations.
I would also like to add, to be positive, and affirming. Tell other that you enjoyed the time you spent with them. Cheer them on in activities, even strangers!
Loneliness comes from a lack of community and people who you can trust. You will not build a community and find people who you can trust through small talk and involving yourself in groups that are based on transient interests that can be changed in an instant. There is a reason gangs and groups have some sort of hazing and acceptance ceremony.
I agree, I have never made a long standing connection with someone I've met while going to a store in a city. I've gotten to know store owners for stores I've frequented over years but not just randomly running into customers. It seems like most cities I've lived in you don't really just start talking to people randomly, maybe I'm just not very friendly but it seems like a survival instinct to avoid crazy folks.
My wife is from New York and has this instinct you speak of. She gets mad when I talk to bank tellers. I grew up in the Midwest and chat with everyone. It makes sense too, because even in a city of a million, very often I’ll start chatting with someone and realize that we know someone in common. Happens all the time.
My wife said such a thing would NEVER happen in New York, there’s just too many people.
Most people here could benefit from talking to everyone and honing that skill, especially single guys, instead of just lambasting it as “small talk”.
When you don’t talk to people, you throw out a great amount of serendipity in life. e.g. Most of my friends right now and women I’ve dated I’ve met in lines at the coffee shop, parking my rental bike at the dock, and other unlikely places.
I wasn’t always that person so I empathize with the knee jerk kick against the idea, but it’s time to evolve, guys.
I agree with your approach to the point I think it’s the only way to really tackle loneliness and making friends. You just have to talk to strangers, often about nothing.
Unfortunately for the less socially trained, the advice in the article seems pretty daunting. It reminds me of of the quote “people won’t remember what you said but they’ll remember how you made then feel”. I am pretty sure I’ve made a few people feel awkward or mildly uncomfortable in my time trying to do this.
Naturally, I’ve gotten better but since it’s not something I do frequently I’m still pretty bad at it. I really wish there were a systematic way to train talking to strangers in an environment where it’s ok to make minor social missteps. Unfortunately it seems to me that such an environment is some stage of development that I missed at an earlier age. Is there some way forward that doesn’t just involve eating the losses as a cost of learning?
> Is there some way forward that doesn’t just involve eating the losses as a cost of learning?
I've always felt that Toastmasters and improv were good ways forward, depending on individual preference (formal/businessy vs comedic). The popular conception is that the former is all about public speaking and the latter comedy but most people I know who have gotten into either went to improve their general socializing/banter skill (I haven't participated in either, just relaying anecdata)
I've found the opposite by working in a sales position.
I'm introverted, so it sometimes felt like torture getting through some days. I felt dizzy and drained after 10+ hours of talking, pitching and trying to close sometimes hundreds of strangers over one day.
People do buy based on emotion, you'll see the progression from feature to benefit to emotional benefit in most structured sales cycles. The best sales people make customers feel great and tie it to the product. You need to learn about what they're looking for and why, it's rarely 'one size fits all.'
You learn tricks and learn to have fun. I realized mental fortitude and positive socialization is really hard work, not just disposition as I wrote it off before. You can set goals for yourself and learn from having an actual point of success. And you don't eat without achievement, in my case at least. Just pick a product that you actually believe in and makes lives and the world better (and has a good commission model).
Would you be willing to talk a bit more on how you get into that kind of conversation? I feel like bridging the gap between the necessary discussion of "Can you deposit this cheque please? Thanks." to the personal discussion of "Oh wow you went to Sycamore high and played on the hockey team? Don't suppose you know Johnny?" is a real art if you don't want to sound like a probing weirdo, and I have no idea how to do it.
Start with something pleasant and impersonal just to see if they're interested in talking. "Having a good day?" can lead to "how do you like working here" can lead to "you look familiar, are you originally from around here" can lead to "Oh wow you went to Sycamore High." If you get the sense that the other person isn't chatty or seems put off, you just stop talking.
She is like that now, but maybe it’s because she grew up in a middle class suburb on Long Island. She’d get cat called by construction workers and stuff, and tried to make herself as unnoticed as possible.
Now she’s considered really aggressive by midwesterners but she’s also known for getting things done because of that.
I had a friendship of several years with someone I met at my local library. I don't think something like that is common, but it's not impossible either.
This is one of the reasons I'm so quick to suggest Hackspaces to geeky adults looking for social contact. Due to the massively varied nature of activities there tends to be a couple of sub-groups that cater to your specific interests (even if it's only an interest that month) and overall tends to be a group of decent people that you can easily progress through the smalltalk phases and into actual friendships.
Yup. My thought process here[1] is that real friendships only occur from time. So you need long hours with people, whom you either get along with or you don't. You can choose the group of people to increase your odds for sharing interests or personality overlaps to help your chances, but it still requires time.
This is why work friendships in my experience are quite easy, even for an introverted hermit like myself. Often common interests between people, and _tons_ of time bonding.
If i really cared about forming more friendships i'd do what you suggested - find groups that interest me and spend the time needed to form friendships. I'm also a little weird in that while i get along with a lot of people and i am (hopefully) easy to get along with, i'm generally not interested in relationships without common interests and activities. Because i don't like to socialize purely for the sake of socializing - i like building something together, or playing something together, or enjoying food together, or whatever it is i am actually interested in.. which is usually software.
[1]: Which is probably useless, as i'm generally an introvert who still has less friends than i'd prefer.
> This is why work friendships in my experience are quite easy, even for an introverted hermit like myself. Often common interests between people, and _tons_ of time bonding.
Really depends on your team, in my experience. Nothing wrong at all with being a middle-aged parent who's too busy to do things with coworkers outside of work, of course. It's a workplace, and we're here to do work, not hang out. But my friendships at work tend to happen with people who are around my age and are interested in doing fun things together outside of work too.
Maybe it depends on your definition of "friend" as well. For me, no matter how well I get along with someone at work, so long as we're only chatting with each other over lunch and coffee breaks and the occasional team event, we're just acquaintances, not "real" friends in the sense that you hang out just for fun and help each other out with things that come up in personal life.
same here. those people that became friends at work were those where we had a common interest besides work, and we would have become friends even if we had worked at different companies.
I don't think that is weird. There is only so much partying and drinking I can do. The real friendship happens outside the club. Meeting once a month at a happy hour doesn't cut it even. It's volunteering together, workouts, game nights, dinners, where that happens.
everywhere i travelled or lived i was easily welcomed to be an active member of the local user group and from several i have friends that still remember me a decade or two later.
i don't even remember any smalltalk phase (except for the smalltalk programmers group :-). there usually was some topic or someone with a question and we launched straight into technical discussions. all i had to do was show up and participate occasionally.
Yep, along the same lines I've always found that it's much faster to get to know people by doing something immersive with them, even if it's only for a day or a weekend, compared to seeing them regularly but only for an hour or two. Spending a whole weekend together can be equivalent to months of weekly interactions or years of monthly interactions.
So if you want to make friends, I'd suggest looking for multi-day workshops, retreats, festivals, tournaments, conferences, etc. over weekly or monthly meetups.
Rightly said! Additionally, is worth getting good at enjoying small talk as a good way to get comfortable (and help others get comfortable!) in novel situations.
The goal isn't to imagine that every exchange is an opportunity to make a friend and build a relationship, although that is true. It is to build a respect and appreciation for reading and giving social cues.
At some point you will be faced with a great opportunities to connect with others. Nothing is worse than unwittingly making people responsible for your needs by being unable to empathize with others because you're so focused on trying to make it work and get your needs met.
Semi-related: I suspect a big draw of social media is that it resembles actual human communication while also conferring a lot more control to all parties.
Vulnerability is not required. Communication is stripped of almost all of its context, and is often asynchronous. There is little expectation of any sort of real commitment. People are easily muted, unfollowed, and blocked.
In sanitizing away the messiness of real relationships, we’re left with an empty shell that puts us more in control and yet also more lonely. It would seem that we cannot simply pick and choose which aspects of relationships we want, nor can we relate to others at the scale that social media enables us to.
Twitch is similar I find. It’s basically substitute human interaction. But I don’t think it’s all “empty calories” - it does really help against loneliness in my experience. Of course the real thing is going to be better for you, but obviously that’s not always available.
Vulnerability can be seen as a lack of control. And I really believe our generation is terrible at it. We say we want authenticity, but I think we want authenticity from people like ourselves.
Also, social media encourages a very performative style of vulnerability: "let me write at length about a small quirk," ignoring the fact that anxiety basically runs their life to such an extent that they need Twitter as a social outlet.
> People are easily muted, unfollowed, and blocked.
But also, social media creates perfect conditions for such things to become necessary. Some people are especially easy to dehumanize. People say things to me on social media they wouldn't dare say to my face with irritating regularity.
Yeah. I wouldn't advocate to remove those features due to the sheer amount of toxicity present on social media.
However, their existence reinforces the issues I brought up: it's too easy to cut people out because they said something slightly wrong, they reinforce filter bubbles, and they make it easy to see relationships formed via social media as easily replaced.
There's usually a lot more nuance to the "slightly wrong" aspect.
Sometimes it is something minor the person just isn't well-versed in. Then the response seems to be proportional to how big their audience is; the bigger the audience the larger the transgression, the "you should really know better".
But then there's also little hints at some more deep-seated issues, things where I'd also find an excuse to leave as soon as possible when I met someone like this in real life. The most common thing I see there is someone considering a group less human because of some arbitrary reason (race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity), and I don't mean the constant unwilful ignorance fueling microaggressions (I am though one way or another affected by that, they're mostly annoying and rarely uncomfortable enough to end a conversation) but very clear disregard or even disgust for some demographic.
Oh yes. I used to be tremendously socially awkward and insecure, and that led to a lot of loneliness. Then about 15 years ago I decided to make a concerted effort to try to understand points of view with which I vehemently disagree. So I, being an atheist, started hanging out with religious people. Today I run a meetup group dedicated to this. We have everything from atheists to young-earth creationists. We recently picked up a couple of Muslims, and next week we're getting our first Mormon. It has been tremendously rewarding because I can now get along with just about everyone (except Trump supporters -- still working on that one).
I'm not saying that you should necessarily follow this particular model, but getting out of your social comfort zone, while not easy, can pay big dividends over time.
I feel like there should be separate sets of advice for people in their 20s, 30s, 40s etc.
Anyway, I've met quite a few very lonely people (seems contradictory, but loneliness doesn't necessarily mean someone isn't going out at all) and a the few things that did work for them - at least temporarily - were:
-Getting a roommate, or moving to a shared apartment. There's nothing weird about doing this in your 30s anymore - housing hasn't been affordable for a while now. Doesn't mean they'll be your friends, but at least your social skills won't deteriorate any further.
-Volunteering. Be it an animal shelter or an open kitchen for the less fortunate. It's so much easier to connect with people if you have a common goal and there's always work to do at such places.
-Gaming - controversial, but certain games lend themselves to creating a community.
I do this a lot: going grocery shopping almost every day even for one or two items during periods when I'm basically homebound. Just the act of being around other people helps tremendously my mood by the time I get back home.
tldr if you need social interaction you need to go out and do social interactions
Anyway for me the only thing that sort of works is group sport sessions. I swim and go to group trainings twice a week. It doesn't get me any real friends, but I get people to talk to, we have chat and everything. This is the only time I don't feel lonely atm.
Going out to some advernture-like activities will be even better - camping, biking, trail walking. But you need to find group of people to go out with. It is easier to do if you work in some big company - there probably already some groups like this. I did positive experience with coworkers, but sadly it didn't last.
A lot of my meaningful contacts and relationship building has been because I didn't put down the phone. Being an introvert in a crazy extrovert world is insanely draining.
Social media, digital communication and so forth has surely saved a huge part of my life. It has opened doors, allowed me to connect and establish friendships with people all over the world. It allows me to keep in touch with remote friends and close ones alike. All in all summing up to the feeling that I am less lonely.
Excluding Corona time this also means that I have people to actually meet when I want to go out. So it is not a replacement for "real life" meeting with people. It is an augmentation.
Each to their own; but I personally am somewhat tired of the constant norm of bashing on "digital" and phone and so forth.
> A Practical Guide to Reducing Loneliness Right Now: 11 awkward, life-affirming ways to connect with others.
The most practical way to reduce loneliness is not to connect with others. Become content living alone. Later you can connect to people when it's not a need. But you should understand what's driving the need, and come up with coping mechanisms.
For example, say you really want to show someone a cool picture you just took. Would you still take it if you weren't going to show it to anyone else? If yes, then consider when you will look at it again, tuck it away, and go on with your day. If no, then don't take it.
Don't let your needs control how you live your life, or your emotions.
Here's my practical, psychology-based guide to reducing loneliness:
1. Find ways to help other people.
2. Help them.
3. Do it again.
Reducing loneliness is not about 'having friends', it's about making efforts to participate in the larger group--and the primary way to begin doing that is by helping other people.
To simplify: step outside yourself to be less by yourself.
I visit the elderly in a local old folks home where my grandma lived and listen to their stories each month. At least I'll be popular with the ladies when it's my turn to go.
This is the typical advice by extroverts: “just go out and have fun . If I can do it why can’t you do it?”. Most lonely people know already what to do in theory but for whatever reason they can’t pull it off. That’s certainly the story of my life. I know what I should do but I can’t execute it correctly. I mess up small talk all the time and for some reason never get better. It seems some of my social circuits haven’t been wired correctly and are introducing errors.
Advice giving is a dangerous thing if you haven’t experienced the problem. I don’t have eating problems so for me it’s really easy not to eat that donut or the bucket of ice cream but I have learned and accepted that for some overweight people it’s an almost insurmountable problem. I can’t really relate but I have learned enough over the years to stay away from giving ignorant or condescending advice.
This is a little left-field, but have you considered therapy? One underrated benefit of therapy is that it can help you analyze social situations and build the necessary skills to be more social. Therapists are professionals at talking to people and building a rapport after all.
>This is a little left-field, but have you considered therapy?
Your advice (as well-meant as it may be) is exactly as helpful as the extrovert, mentioned by the parent, who gives the advice to "just have more fun". It's not a lack of knowing what to do. It's a profound lack of "activation energy".
Completely the opposite. It's the difference between a non-medical doctor diagnosing someones medical condition and telling them to go see a real doctor. Sometimes people don't know when to go see a doctor and need some help knowing when they should go. Their advice was completely appropriate given the situation.
The advice “see a therapist “ is often valid but by itself pretty clueless. If you ever have dealt with therapists you know that a lot of them aren’t very good. And finding one you click with can be very exhausting and expensive expensive. I have done this for a few years and it was one of the most depressing things I have done in my life.
Very true, knowing what to do is very different to bringing oneself to do it and dieting is a very good example. How many times therapists can actually change eating habits? From what I know the rates are low, similiar to any other coaching schemes of neutritionist or whoever is in the business of making people thin.
Therapists are in extremely short supply right now. I recently got a wait-list for four months where I live.
The intervening period of time reminds me that I'm supposed to be in therapy, that I might need therapy, but am instead unable to see anyone. That makes my day-to-day life feel wrong, moreso than if I had never considered it as an option.
I suffer from severe depression in general and social anxiety around more than a handful of people, and have talked to therapists regarding this. One huge benefit of therapy is that I was quite quickly able to answer the question of __why__ I feel the way I do, especially around new people I meet. But it is a whole another thing to actually being able to "fix" it. The way I think about it is that I know what the problem is _in theory_, but have no idea how to come up with a _practical_ fix for it.
When I was less depressed, I was able to join a local D&D group, go for bar trivia nights, etc. but as I became more depressed/anxious/stressed (coz of personal and professional situations), it became harder to push myself to become sociable and not get anxious around crowds.
So I think the main point that the parent comment is trying to say is that people need to recognize that problems that may seem to have simple and straightforward "solutions" (like "have you considered therapy") are significantly harder for some individuals purely due to other mental health issues.
I am not trying to fault you, but it is a thing I see in a lot of my friends/peers/relatives is that it gets harder to understand how different mental health issues affect different people in incredibly different ways.
I have done therapy and also CBT. Part of it was in a group setting. It was pretty successful for some in the group but for others like me it did nothing. I have come more and more to the conclusion that some people are naturally not good at math and others aren’t good in social situations. I am sure there are therapists who could help me do better but finding therapists and working with them is by itself a very energy draining and exhausting process. If I had infinite money and time it may be easier but repeatedly investing a lot of trust, time, energy and money into a therapist that doesn’t work out is exhausting and depressing.
Over the years I have found a way to live my life in an OK manner. There are some things in life that aren’t accessible to me but there are plenty of other things I can experience that are rewarding too. I am lucky that my social anxiety and autistic traits aren’t extreme and I have enough intelligence to understand things. Other people have it way worse.
If 1-on-1 and group therapy isn't your thing, you might look into T-Groups [0][1]. The ones I've attended were mostly social interactions with strangers where there was an expectation everyone would give blunt, straight-forward feedback as to how people's communication was landing. The facilitators also had a few structured learning/exercises to keep things moving, but most of it was group directed. T-Groups are popular in MBA programs as a way to help future leaders better understand their communication styles, be more authentic and more receptive to noticing the reactions of the people they're leading. They're somewhat of a middle ground between group therapy and communications training exercises that you see in some corporate settings. But they can be pretty powerful in surfacing feedback that people are normally too polite to give you directly as well as giving you structured practice in building authentic relationships.
You've pointed out the irony: it's not that easy and yet it is. I'd be skinnier if I skipped dessert more often, and while it isn't that simple, skipping dessert is the only sure way to get skinnier. There is no simpler or more effective measure I could take.
I don’t think you read the post very well or you’re picking on things just to say “No, I’m an introvert and so I can’t and that’s the end of that”.
It doesn’t say just go out and do things. It says “whenever you do these things, just do this instead”. And it shows some clear suggestions to try. Put down phone and say yes to any opportunity are what stick out for me. None of them are very risky. Maybe you won’t talk to your neighbors, but you’ll have to want it to change it, it won’t come to you. And so it gives some suggestions of things that are potentially available to you.
My life changed quite a bit after I watched Yes Man and decided to give it a try. It made me realize how much I would said no to things for reasons that were 100% made of negative assumptions. It was all in my head. I didn’t go as far as Jim Carey but I started saying yes or asking if I could join to things I would normally decline and just get FOMO at home.
It’s a very introvert lonely person thing to say “I tried and I suck therefore I can’t” and now I answer to that “Can’t never could”. And I feel like I can say that because I was one of them.
Yes I sucked too, I still think I’m not good at small talk, so what? I stay away from my phone in social gatherings and just observe, at some point just by being engaged you’ll have something to say. Some people might even like you because you’re not “the annoying one who wants to hear themselves talk”.
All it takes is not “go out and do things” it takes saying yes and not sheltering yourself, it takes not running away from the opportunity. It all cascades after. It’s like compound interest if socialization. Once you open yourself to one thing and keep investing in that, lots of gatherings open.
Right now I feel like I need to decline some because I get a bit socially exhausted at times, but 6 years ago i would get depressed on the weekends because I wanted to go do something and had no one to do it with.
An important realization to have is that all of the fun events in your life, all of the dinner parties and hikes and trivia nights, all of them had to be planned by somebody. And at some point, you need to start planning your own events. Yes, planning events sucks. You need to corral people, sync up schedules, negotiate different likes/dislikes. But you gotta do it if you want to see people. I have friends who don't plan events and don't actively reach out. Frankly I'm a lot less close with them because to see them, I have to actively reach out and remember to invite them.
Learning to meet new people is a great skill too because it means you're not stuck with friends who you don't like. I used to be friends with people who I didn't particularly like. But I was afraid to lose them because I didn't have a lot of friends. When you learn to make friends, you realize that it's not worth keeping people around whose presence you don't enjoy. You can cut them off and make new friends.
What I want is a platform where I can randomly chat with people who have common interests. Think Omegle, but without 95% of the userbase being teenage boys who, for some reason, think it's a good way to meet women and get laid.
Think of hallways conversations at conferences. I like conferences -- including well-run virtual ones -- and I'd like to be able to drop in on them anytime.
I like my coworkers, including former ones. Think of the watercooler at work.
When I want to chill, I sign on, and I get connected to a random someone, but a random someone who has something interesting to talk about.
I wouldn't even mind being able to designate a few people I want to hook up with, in the intellectual sense. If we happen to sign on around the same time, we'll chat.
Dinner parties aren't the only kind of gathering you can plan to socialize with people you know, they're just a common format.
You can meet a friend for coffee just to talk and catch up. You could even just schedule a phone call, so you don't even have to be physically together. Many people will play online multiplayer games together to have an excuse to talk with friends.
I have friends, but little time. My friends have little time too. The odds of us having time to schedule together at the same time are close to zero.
The same thing was actually true in college too -- I went to an intense school -- but we had lounges in the dorm. When I was tired or burnt out, I'd drift into a lounge. There was usually someone else in one of the lounges.
I want this too! How will this service match you with interesting people? Something like okcupid compatibility algorithm with less focus on relationship?
I don't think it's be rocket science. I'd put in my interests. I might even put in where I work, what conferences I go to, and what hobbies I have.
If there were a way to do so privately, I'd love if it worked from my web browsing, Youtube, etc. history as well -- things I did recently. If I just read an awesome article about the war between Azerbaijan an Armenia we all missed among COVID19, of if I just spent a few hours playing with Webcomponents, I wouldn't mind chatting with someone who did the same.
I think a service like this would quickly learn how to peer people for fruitful conversations. A key would be to keep this multidimensional; if you line up 65% with software engineers, and 55% with cricket players, you should get peered with both (or have a choice). A lot of the recommender systems seem to bucket me in just one place.
I explicitly want zero focus on relationships. This should not be a dating service. The instant anything like that shows up, things go south very quickly. The standards should be the same as e.g. in your work environment.
I find it easier to plan for myself, then invite people. Otherwise I feel like I spend my life waiting for others to make up their mind.
Over time, you have different people for different activities: the athletes, the stoners, the foodies, the geeks, the gamers and so on. It becomes a lot easier to plan.
I am the planner in my friend group. I used to be like, “This thing looks cool, we should all go do it sometime.” Even if we all agree that it’s awesome, it usually gets forgotten except for the occasional, “oh yeah! We still need to do that sometime!” I have found that if I really want to get something together, adding a date and time to the mention of it makes it a million times more likely that it’ll happen. “Would anyone like to go the the fair on Saturday at x time?” We may have some back and forth about times or days, but just having something to start off of really helps get everyone into gear and thinking about their schedules.
Also, I used to be really scared to invite people to do stuff. I didn’t think people would want to go out. Maybe they were saying no cos they secretly hate me. Maybe I’m bothering them by inviting them places. Just silly anxiety fears. Now, I just throw stuff out there and see what sticks.
At a very young age I realized waking makes me happy. I know a lot of other exercises that burns fat more efficient, so I spent a lot of time trying to come up with something that justify a 2 hours walk. Eventually I stop trying to justify it. I just go for a walk listening to music. It may not be the best exercise for the body, but it does wonders for the mind.
Maybe I’m crazy but if you’re really lonely I don’t know how planning an event nobody will show up to because you have nobody to invite helps.
That just seems like bad advice. Or even if you do have people to invite if you’re not super close it’s likely nobody will show up, or at least that’s been my experience.
I feel like a lot of the advice on overcoming loneliness puts all of the onus on the individual to make friends through talking to people and joining groups etc. and yes, obviously you won't overcome loneliness through inaction, but I really wish there was more talk about how social structures are a major component to the ease with which we make friends, and how we could potentially redesign social structures to facilitate that.
for instance, the reason why it's easier to make friends in college is literally because college is set up for lots of serendipity and rubbing elbows in ways that post-college isn't. are there fun experiments we could try in order to design for organic interaction outside of an institution like a school or workplace? I've thought a little bit about this but it would be fun to have larger-scale convos about it.
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[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 182 ms ] threadAlso that link doesn’t work for me - server not found.
(Before someone mentions Patreon or Tippee - both of those are platforms for erecting paywalls.)
It isn't a solution to the problem, at best, it is a bandaid. I don't like it, but I don't want it banned. I wish I could think of something realistic and better, but can't.
At least panhandlers don't have a platform eating some large percentage of the take.
Are you using Cloudflare DNS? Related discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828317
> Stop Ordering Stuff Off Amazon
ok boomer tier advice
edit: GALATIANS 4:16
It's a bit boring, but I think both points are valid. If you are not looking up you probably miss the opportunity, but opportunities are still very slim.
And I guess if you really have friends and still feel lonely, making more friends might not help much.
Only the first meeting has to be incidental. Expecting all future contact to be incidental is how you let all could-be friendships and relationships pass right through your fingers.
Take a little control over life.
> Simply put, be casual, not creepy, and read the room.
this line gave me a chuckle at least. pretty sure this is the actual root of the problem for many lonely people.
here's my guide to making friends:
1. have good social skills.
2. talk to people.
Just consider the fact that if you’re lonely, doing more of the same isn’t going to help you. It’s easy to be dismissive, but you’re going to have to push your comfort zone to find change.
Like I'm not the most charismatic guy, and I know that if I try to make any sort of non-trivial conversation with someone I don't know well I will make them uncomfortable. Men will be bored or think I'm crazy, women will think I'm hitting on them, and I don't really feel comfortable using them as guinea pigs for my social development.
I'm all for pushing past my personal comfort zone to better myself, but when my self-improvement comes at the expense of others I can't help but hesitate.
My wife said such a thing would NEVER happen in New York, there’s just too many people.
When you don’t talk to people, you throw out a great amount of serendipity in life. e.g. Most of my friends right now and women I’ve dated I’ve met in lines at the coffee shop, parking my rental bike at the dock, and other unlikely places.
I wasn’t always that person so I empathize with the knee jerk kick against the idea, but it’s time to evolve, guys.
Unfortunately for the less socially trained, the advice in the article seems pretty daunting. It reminds me of of the quote “people won’t remember what you said but they’ll remember how you made then feel”. I am pretty sure I’ve made a few people feel awkward or mildly uncomfortable in my time trying to do this.
Naturally, I’ve gotten better but since it’s not something I do frequently I’m still pretty bad at it. I really wish there were a systematic way to train talking to strangers in an environment where it’s ok to make minor social missteps. Unfortunately it seems to me that such an environment is some stage of development that I missed at an earlier age. Is there some way forward that doesn’t just involve eating the losses as a cost of learning?
I've always felt that Toastmasters and improv were good ways forward, depending on individual preference (formal/businessy vs comedic). The popular conception is that the former is all about public speaking and the latter comedy but most people I know who have gotten into either went to improve their general socializing/banter skill (I haven't participated in either, just relaying anecdata)
I'm introverted, so it sometimes felt like torture getting through some days. I felt dizzy and drained after 10+ hours of talking, pitching and trying to close sometimes hundreds of strangers over one day.
People do buy based on emotion, you'll see the progression from feature to benefit to emotional benefit in most structured sales cycles. The best sales people make customers feel great and tie it to the product. You need to learn about what they're looking for and why, it's rarely 'one size fits all.'
You learn tricks and learn to have fun. I realized mental fortitude and positive socialization is really hard work, not just disposition as I wrote it off before. You can set goals for yourself and learn from having an actual point of success. And you don't eat without achievement, in my case at least. Just pick a product that you actually believe in and makes lives and the world better (and has a good commission model).
You're not talking to a random sample of people, so it's not actually thaaat unlikely to be someone who knows someone you do
Now she’s considered really aggressive by midwesterners but she’s also known for getting things done because of that.
This is why work friendships in my experience are quite easy, even for an introverted hermit like myself. Often common interests between people, and _tons_ of time bonding.
If i really cared about forming more friendships i'd do what you suggested - find groups that interest me and spend the time needed to form friendships. I'm also a little weird in that while i get along with a lot of people and i am (hopefully) easy to get along with, i'm generally not interested in relationships without common interests and activities. Because i don't like to socialize purely for the sake of socializing - i like building something together, or playing something together, or enjoying food together, or whatever it is i am actually interested in.. which is usually software.
[1]: Which is probably useless, as i'm generally an introvert who still has less friends than i'd prefer.
Really depends on your team, in my experience. Nothing wrong at all with being a middle-aged parent who's too busy to do things with coworkers outside of work, of course. It's a workplace, and we're here to do work, not hang out. But my friendships at work tend to happen with people who are around my age and are interested in doing fun things together outside of work too.
Maybe it depends on your definition of "friend" as well. For me, no matter how well I get along with someone at work, so long as we're only chatting with each other over lunch and coffee breaks and the occasional team event, we're just acquaintances, not "real" friends in the sense that you hang out just for fun and help each other out with things that come up in personal life.
everywhere i travelled or lived i was easily welcomed to be an active member of the local user group and from several i have friends that still remember me a decade or two later.
i don't even remember any smalltalk phase (except for the smalltalk programmers group :-). there usually was some topic or someone with a question and we launched straight into technical discussions. all i had to do was show up and participate occasionally.
So if you want to make friends, I'd suggest looking for multi-day workshops, retreats, festivals, tournaments, conferences, etc. over weekly or monthly meetups.
when you play boardgames you talk to learn the rules of the game and you use the player interactions that make up the game.
when you volunteer you talk about the work needs to be done.
any hobbies or sports you talk about how to do things.
you make connections by frequently interacting with the same people. do it long enough, be a reliable helper, and you'll make friends.
The goal isn't to imagine that every exchange is an opportunity to make a friend and build a relationship, although that is true. It is to build a respect and appreciation for reading and giving social cues.
At some point you will be faced with a great opportunities to connect with others. Nothing is worse than unwittingly making people responsible for your needs by being unable to empathize with others because you're so focused on trying to make it work and get your needs met.
Vulnerability is not required. Communication is stripped of almost all of its context, and is often asynchronous. There is little expectation of any sort of real commitment. People are easily muted, unfollowed, and blocked.
In sanitizing away the messiness of real relationships, we’re left with an empty shell that puts us more in control and yet also more lonely. It would seem that we cannot simply pick and choose which aspects of relationships we want, nor can we relate to others at the scale that social media enables us to.
A fraction of the risk for an even smaller fraction of the reward.
Also you can watch porn while having sex, in theory.
Also, social media encourages a very performative style of vulnerability: "let me write at length about a small quirk," ignoring the fact that anxiety basically runs their life to such an extent that they need Twitter as a social outlet.
But also, social media creates perfect conditions for such things to become necessary. Some people are especially easy to dehumanize. People say things to me on social media they wouldn't dare say to my face with irritating regularity.
However, their existence reinforces the issues I brought up: it's too easy to cut people out because they said something slightly wrong, they reinforce filter bubbles, and they make it easy to see relationships formed via social media as easily replaced.
Sometimes it is something minor the person just isn't well-versed in. Then the response seems to be proportional to how big their audience is; the bigger the audience the larger the transgression, the "you should really know better".
But then there's also little hints at some more deep-seated issues, things where I'd also find an excuse to leave as soon as possible when I met someone like this in real life. The most common thing I see there is someone considering a group less human because of some arbitrary reason (race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity), and I don't mean the constant unwilful ignorance fueling microaggressions (I am though one way or another affected by that, they're mostly annoying and rarely uncomfortable enough to end a conversation) but very clear disregard or even disgust for some demographic.
I'm not saying that you should necessarily follow this particular model, but getting out of your social comfort zone, while not easy, can pay big dividends over time.
Anyway, I've met quite a few very lonely people (seems contradictory, but loneliness doesn't necessarily mean someone isn't going out at all) and a the few things that did work for them - at least temporarily - were:
-Getting a roommate, or moving to a shared apartment. There's nothing weird about doing this in your 30s anymore - housing hasn't been affordable for a while now. Doesn't mean they'll be your friends, but at least your social skills won't deteriorate any further.
-Volunteering. Be it an animal shelter or an open kitchen for the less fortunate. It's so much easier to connect with people if you have a common goal and there's always work to do at such places.
-Gaming - controversial, but certain games lend themselves to creating a community.
another gaming related activity is boardgames. check if your city has a boardgame meetup. if not, start one.
also hobbies
I do this a lot: going grocery shopping almost every day even for one or two items during periods when I'm basically homebound. Just the act of being around other people helps tremendously my mood by the time I get back home.
Anyway for me the only thing that sort of works is group sport sessions. I swim and go to group trainings twice a week. It doesn't get me any real friends, but I get people to talk to, we have chat and everything. This is the only time I don't feel lonely atm. Going out to some advernture-like activities will be even better - camping, biking, trail walking. But you need to find group of people to go out with. It is easier to do if you work in some big company - there probably already some groups like this. I did positive experience with coworkers, but sadly it didn't last.
Social media, digital communication and so forth has surely saved a huge part of my life. It has opened doors, allowed me to connect and establish friendships with people all over the world. It allows me to keep in touch with remote friends and close ones alike. All in all summing up to the feeling that I am less lonely.
Excluding Corona time this also means that I have people to actually meet when I want to go out. So it is not a replacement for "real life" meeting with people. It is an augmentation.
Each to their own; but I personally am somewhat tired of the constant norm of bashing on "digital" and phone and so forth.
The most practical way to reduce loneliness is not to connect with others. Become content living alone. Later you can connect to people when it's not a need. But you should understand what's driving the need, and come up with coping mechanisms.
For example, say you really want to show someone a cool picture you just took. Would you still take it if you weren't going to show it to anyone else? If yes, then consider when you will look at it again, tuck it away, and go on with your day. If no, then don't take it.
Don't let your needs control how you live your life, or your emotions.
1. Find ways to help other people.
2. Help them.
3. Do it again.
Reducing loneliness is not about 'having friends', it's about making efforts to participate in the larger group--and the primary way to begin doing that is by helping other people.
To simplify: step outside yourself to be less by yourself.
Advice giving is a dangerous thing if you haven’t experienced the problem. I don’t have eating problems so for me it’s really easy not to eat that donut or the bucket of ice cream but I have learned and accepted that for some overweight people it’s an almost insurmountable problem. I can’t really relate but I have learned enough over the years to stay away from giving ignorant or condescending advice.
Your advice (as well-meant as it may be) is exactly as helpful as the extrovert, mentioned by the parent, who gives the advice to "just have more fun". It's not a lack of knowing what to do. It's a profound lack of "activation energy".
The intervening period of time reminds me that I'm supposed to be in therapy, that I might need therapy, but am instead unable to see anyone. That makes my day-to-day life feel wrong, moreso than if I had never considered it as an option.
When I was less depressed, I was able to join a local D&D group, go for bar trivia nights, etc. but as I became more depressed/anxious/stressed (coz of personal and professional situations), it became harder to push myself to become sociable and not get anxious around crowds.
So I think the main point that the parent comment is trying to say is that people need to recognize that problems that may seem to have simple and straightforward "solutions" (like "have you considered therapy") are significantly harder for some individuals purely due to other mental health issues.
I am not trying to fault you, but it is a thing I see in a lot of my friends/peers/relatives is that it gets harder to understand how different mental health issues affect different people in incredibly different ways.
Over the years I have found a way to live my life in an OK manner. There are some things in life that aren’t accessible to me but there are plenty of other things I can experience that are rewarding too. I am lucky that my social anxiety and autistic traits aren’t extreme and I have enough intelligence to understand things. Other people have it way worse.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-groups
[1] https://www.edbatista.com/2018/06/a-brief-history-of-t-group...
It doesn’t say just go out and do things. It says “whenever you do these things, just do this instead”. And it shows some clear suggestions to try. Put down phone and say yes to any opportunity are what stick out for me. None of them are very risky. Maybe you won’t talk to your neighbors, but you’ll have to want it to change it, it won’t come to you. And so it gives some suggestions of things that are potentially available to you.
My life changed quite a bit after I watched Yes Man and decided to give it a try. It made me realize how much I would said no to things for reasons that were 100% made of negative assumptions. It was all in my head. I didn’t go as far as Jim Carey but I started saying yes or asking if I could join to things I would normally decline and just get FOMO at home.
It’s a very introvert lonely person thing to say “I tried and I suck therefore I can’t” and now I answer to that “Can’t never could”. And I feel like I can say that because I was one of them.
Yes I sucked too, I still think I’m not good at small talk, so what? I stay away from my phone in social gatherings and just observe, at some point just by being engaged you’ll have something to say. Some people might even like you because you’re not “the annoying one who wants to hear themselves talk”.
All it takes is not “go out and do things” it takes saying yes and not sheltering yourself, it takes not running away from the opportunity. It all cascades after. It’s like compound interest if socialization. Once you open yourself to one thing and keep investing in that, lots of gatherings open.
Right now I feel like I need to decline some because I get a bit socially exhausted at times, but 6 years ago i would get depressed on the weekends because I wanted to go do something and had no one to do it with.
Learning to meet new people is a great skill too because it means you're not stuck with friends who you don't like. I used to be friends with people who I didn't particularly like. But I was afraid to lose them because I didn't have a lot of friends. When you learn to make friends, you realize that it's not worth keeping people around whose presence you don't enjoy. You can cut them off and make new friends.
What I want is a platform where I can randomly chat with people who have common interests. Think Omegle, but without 95% of the userbase being teenage boys who, for some reason, think it's a good way to meet women and get laid.
Think of hallways conversations at conferences. I like conferences -- including well-run virtual ones -- and I'd like to be able to drop in on them anytime.
I like my coworkers, including former ones. Think of the watercooler at work.
When I want to chill, I sign on, and I get connected to a random someone, but a random someone who has something interesting to talk about.
I wouldn't even mind being able to designate a few people I want to hook up with, in the intellectual sense. If we happen to sign on around the same time, we'll chat.
I'd build it, but I'm busy.
You can meet a friend for coffee just to talk and catch up. You could even just schedule a phone call, so you don't even have to be physically together. Many people will play online multiplayer games together to have an excuse to talk with friends.
I have friends, but little time. My friends have little time too. The odds of us having time to schedule together at the same time are close to zero.
The same thing was actually true in college too -- I went to an intense school -- but we had lounges in the dorm. When I was tired or burnt out, I'd drift into a lounge. There was usually someone else in one of the lounges.
That's kinda what I want. Only virtually.
If there were a way to do so privately, I'd love if it worked from my web browsing, Youtube, etc. history as well -- things I did recently. If I just read an awesome article about the war between Azerbaijan an Armenia we all missed among COVID19, of if I just spent a few hours playing with Webcomponents, I wouldn't mind chatting with someone who did the same.
I think a service like this would quickly learn how to peer people for fruitful conversations. A key would be to keep this multidimensional; if you line up 65% with software engineers, and 55% with cricket players, you should get peered with both (or have a choice). A lot of the recommender systems seem to bucket me in just one place.
I explicitly want zero focus on relationships. This should not be a dating service. The instant anything like that shows up, things go south very quickly. The standards should be the same as e.g. in your work environment.
Over time, you have different people for different activities: the athletes, the stoners, the foodies, the geeks, the gamers and so on. It becomes a lot easier to plan.
Also, I used to be really scared to invite people to do stuff. I didn’t think people would want to go out. Maybe they were saying no cos they secretly hate me. Maybe I’m bothering them by inviting them places. Just silly anxiety fears. Now, I just throw stuff out there and see what sticks.
My advice is don't keep score for a while but also recognize if it's remained or become one sided.
Ah man got me there
That just seems like bad advice. Or even if you do have people to invite if you’re not super close it’s likely nobody will show up, or at least that’s been my experience.
for instance, the reason why it's easier to make friends in college is literally because college is set up for lots of serendipity and rubbing elbows in ways that post-college isn't. are there fun experiments we could try in order to design for organic interaction outside of an institution like a school or workplace? I've thought a little bit about this but it would be fun to have larger-scale convos about it.