Ask HN: My dentist prescribed me a toothbrush that wants to track me forever
Hi HN. I'm writing you because I'm a bit miffed about my first electric toothbrush that my dentist prescribed me. It's called a Philips Sonicare DiamondClean and it cost me $180. When you're at the dentist, it's customary to pay at the time of services rendered....I already regret this. The problem is that this toothbrush requires the Philips Sonicare Android/Apple app. I gave it a whirl, but during the setup process I've noticed so many dark patterns. For starters, it requires that Bluetooth and Location be on all the time. Secondly, the app does _not_ allow screenshots to be made of it! It just disables that on Android for me. Third, the manufacturer does not state any of this on the package, and probably has no necessity to do so.
52 comments
[ 4.9 ms ] story [ 140 ms ] threadI am the last person to suggest that an $80 toothbrush should replace a free or <$5 toothbrush but this is one of those rare things that are actually worth it. Your teeth feel 10x cleaner.
I use cheap as chips Listerine/Reach manual brushes, brush hard, and replace frequently. My teeth feel 10x cleaner than when I used an electric.
(But, I'm British, so my teeth must be awful right? Don't listen to me :) (self-trolling aside, I think that basically comes from 'mall'-based mouth-bleaching being less popular here? i.e. it's like saying someone who doesn't go to a tanning place 'has bad skin'...))
2. With a sonicating toothbrush, I reduced my cleaning visits to once a year because there's usually nothing there for the hygienist to remove. Perhaps you tried the wrong kind of toothbrush?
https://www.deltadentalins.com/oral_health/overbrushing.html
I've never been to an oral hygienist; I go to the dentist once every 12-18 months on his advice. (Though currently almost two years due to the pandemic; emergency appointments only.)
> Perhaps you tried the wrong kind of toothbrush?
Yeah, there'd always be someone's preferred brand that I didn't try and would be better even if I was saying I liked the one I did - I just don't feel the need to try multiple expensive electric ones when manual seems fine to me, and in adult life at least check-ups have just been 'all good, see you in 12mo'.
> https://www.deltadentalins.com/oral_health/overbrushing.html
Perhaps I do brush too hard, I'll try (not doing) that. But that's surely an orthogonal issue, one could (I probably did) brush 'too hard' regardless of whether it's manual or electric.
According to my dentist brushing too strongly can cause your gums to recede. And apparently they don't recover so damage is permanent. You are meant to use about 80 grams of pressure, which is pretty much none at all.
A decent electric toothbrush like a Sonicare feels like it cleans much better with hardly using any pressure. The base models are fine, all the additional options are unnecessary if you just want to brush your teeth. Personally, switching to an electric toothbrush has been the best thing.
Cheap hardware is fine, just make sure bristles are soft/ultra soft (packaging will say soft somewhere).
And you only need to brush each tooth ~6x per side.
I just use it as an electric toothbrush. I briefly looked up some details on the app, realized it made zero sense to install it, and now I just use it as a toothbrush.
I'm sure my dentist made a commission on that toothbrush I puchased through her, and billed my insurance for it, as well as gets some kind of kickback from Phillips to hawk their products. I guess she needs to pay for her dental school tuition loans somehow. Either way, I haven't gone back to her since.
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[0]: Okay, technically, a Pi is a bit overkill, but I'm not sure if it's simple to, say, hit a web API with an Arduino.
I could see a custom built API client, but then which endpoint does it hit? If it uses the API of the ToothCoach, Inc, then you will complain about TCI getting your tooth brushing data. So it uses bluetooth to hit your phone, in which case you might as well store all the inspirational messages on your phone instead of in toothbrush EEPROM
We're living in kinda funny times - toothbrush that tries to track its user hah
So that they can take and sell your information on a regular basis
He’s just pushing it on you because some pharma rep came in and bought him a nice steak and bottle of wine at the Capital Grille.
Same as how you get all those shirts from Splunk and USB drives from Salesforce or whoever at ReInvent.
I don't deny that people often have ulterior motives but I think operating on the assumption that that's the only motive they can possibly have is harmful.
This reminded me of the Open Payments Data[1] site that I recently found out about. You might be able to find out exactly how much that nice steak and bottle of wine cost the pharma rep.
[1] https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/
It's just a scam that Philips is running in collaboration with dentists.
That doesn't explain having to attach BLE and an app, other than upselling "features".
Brand stratification and segmentation is a thing, but it's not a "scam", any more than any other marketing techniques.
I glanced over the details and saw 'connect with app to show what's brushed properly and what part of mouth is missing during brushing routine' - something like that.
I joked with the front desk that this could be a good way to spy on the kids to make sure they are actually brushing when they are supposed to - and perhaps give them visual indicators that they can do better behind the teeth or whatever..
Now I think that something that can be used this way would help a LOT of parents/kids.. but I would need the app on either a tablet or the parents phone AND on a device for the kids to see - without location tracking and sending data to third parties.
researching these to find one similar to the one at the dentist (labeled available at DDs only or some such) - but it's a nightmare getting actual details about how the app may or may not work - when searching walmart/amazon/etc and several different brands..
I see another posted mentioned the optional app with the OralB Genius 6000' - that one line description has me leaning toward trying one of those for the little ones that need it.
If a toothbrush in the house is tracking location data - it better be just to send to parents to show that they have not moved more than an inch in the past 48 hours - not to sell to some ad company to resell.
It's just too much.
FYI one answer to all of this is some kind of 'home mesh network' that has some kind of central computing entity so that at least our IoT services work locally. One day Apple/Google may pull it off.
FWIW Android has a weird peculiarity where the developer needs Location permission for Bluetooth to work (I don't know the details). (When I print wirelessly with my printer over WiFi, I need to enable location too).
https://developer.android.com/training/location/permissions
> ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION Provides a more accurate location than one provided when you request ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION. This permission is necessary for some connectivity tasks, such as connecting to nearby devices over Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE).
About screenshots, it's the same as banking apps. I think they try to be overly cautious.
Anyway, can't the brush be used without the app?
Don't you realize more expansive toothbrushes are the same, but with stupid apps and tracking sensors? Why would you want that?
Edit: Philips seems to be more prevalent than Oral-B in the US but the price ranges are the same. If you want the best tooth brushing experience, a 20 bucks electric toothbrush brush is fine. Any additional dollar goes to gadgety stuff
Please can you tell us what benefits an internet enabled *toothbrush* provides? Is somebody from SV seriously going to come along and tell us this enhances their life?
Overall it sounds worthy of tweeting at Internet of Shit.
Digital habit reminders don't work for me. I need to wire that into my brain manually. Apparently I have a circuit in my brain for digital reminders that has a setting where I just turn them off.
Anything the $180 model can do, the baseline $30 model without Wi-Fi/Bluetooth can do.
Either way he can't dictate what you use or don't use so you can just not use/buy it in the first place.
This is nonsense and he should be able to honor this.
My second round of thought was that OP blindly followed his doctors advice, thinking his doctor was acting in his best interest, and spent a whopping $180 on a toothbrush. I love the comments pointing out how the doctor is likely paid by the toothbrush company to push a product.
The most interesting part is people are having the realization that people in authority that are usually seen as trusted (such as doctors) are capable of acting in their own best interest at the expense of their clients. It reminds me of a YouTube video I watched recently about starwars Lego figures. For years, Lego claimed they were unable to sell starwars figures individually because of licensing issues, and their fanbase believed them. But recently it came out that they were legally allowed to, but decided not to because it would be more profitable for them to force their fans to buy entire Lego sets just for the figures. The realization process that this youtuber goes through is comforting. He realizes that an authority figure (Lego) was takin I'm too fuking lazy to type this shit out. You get the point. Connect it to your government representatives on both sides and realize they don't care about you.