We're at almost exactly the same thickness and weight as a MacBook Pro 13-inch, and lighter and thinner than most T-series ThinkPads.
The storage, both memory sockets, and WiFi are socketed for upgradeability, and the entire mainboard is upgradeable too!
We're testing for compatibility with major linux distributions, and expect near complete support (with potentially only the fingerprint reader driver coming in later).
I think it’s down again if you click the configurations. Home page is sometimes up, but that’s also down some of the time.
“ 500 Internal Server Error
If you are the administrator of this website, then please read this web application's log file and/or the web server's log file to find out what went wrong.”
Thanks for your patience! We're upgrading infrastructure further, but the website is very much still struggling under the load. On that note, we're hiring a Backend Engineer if anyone is interested! https://jobs.lever.co/framework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...
What was the point of signing up for pre-order emails and following your launch if it was going to be announced everywhere at the same time? Your website is down and it was impossible to complete a pre-order checkout because of all the errors.
Sorry for the go-live shakiness. The website is up and running solidly now. We sent out the email to the mailing list this morning with the intent of letting folks get in and order as the news started to trickle out. In reality though, there was an immediate, massive influx of traffic (in part from HN) that brought down the website. Lessons learned for the future.
This is a noble effort and you can certainly take the moral high-ground over companies like Apple. However, often the problem is not only whether parts are replaceable but also availability of spares. For example, my 2016 X1 Carbon needs a new battery and it is easily user-replaceable, yet Lenovo no longer make or sell them. How can you make sure that parts are available, especially if your suppliers stop making them?
We're committing to making compatible parts available. Part of how we're doing this is continuing to use this design and architecture going forward for the foreseeable future. This means that as we continue to refresh the specs each year, modules like the battery, display, and others will remain cross-compatible. This makes it easier for us to keep suppliers bought in for the long-haul.
It's complicated. We have moving to an open BIOS on our roadmap (and doing so fits our mission really well), but we prioritized getting high quality, stable hardware out for this first iteration.
We likely won't within this 13.5" form factor, since even with a discrete GPU there would be some problematic thermal budget tradeoffs with the CPU. GPU modularity is definitely a compelling area though!
Thank you so much for starting this project and hopefully long-term investment. Incredibly refreshing.
The site is down for the moment. What is the situation about warranty?
Do you plan to offer multi-year options? I’m all for repairing my own laptop, but if there is an option to pay upfront for some peace of mind on at least the parts, I’d bite.
Thank you for the reply. Great to hear it's on Framework's radar.
While the reparability helps (as I'm used to even $800 laptops calling for $300 screens + webcam + Wi-Fi antenna), if it's profitable for Framework, it'd be an instant buy here.
We have both Quality and Customer Experience teams to span quality from the sub-suppliers and manufacturing through to customers, so that we can close the loop on any field issues.
Which three parts in a laptop have the highest failure rate, and what are those rates?
What I can’t wrap my head around is, a consumer that feels strongly about repairing laptops themselves, for clearly non-economic reasons, but would balk at the cost of a laptop manufactured in the West, which is 100% of the labor the day the laptop ships, because then the computer would cost 3 times as much.
We manufacture subassemblies and most modules in China with final assembly in Taiwan.
In typical consumer notebooks, batteries, hinges, ports, and keyboards would be parts that wear out over time. We've designed the Framework Laptop to make each of those easy to swap as needed.
We'll be publishing repair guides showing all the parts and assembly steps. In the meantime, you can check out some of the images that show modules: https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-edition
Yes... good catch. We wondered if people would start scanning that image. That will redirect into our product pages and repair guides before we start shipping units out.
Have you tested the laptop’s materials for offgassing?
I’ve had problems with offgassing odors that never seem to go away on multiple monitors, MacBooks and an iPad in recent years. This leads to headaches that makes it impossible to use the machines for more than a few minutes, even with good room ventilation.
It would be great to buy a laptop that is known to be low offgassing. I was wondering if a Framework laptop would have less glue and could be more effective offgassed in a shed by disassembling the components and ventilating.
I doubt it’s just one chemical, but various kinds of plastics and adhesives, and possibly some electronic components are all likely contributors. For example, on the 8th gen. iPad, the keyboard connector is surprisingly smelly.
Heat increases the rate of offgassing, so a medium amount of heat in well power managed devices can draw out the time for which there is noticeable offgassing for years. I have found if you can burn-in a computer or TV with heavy load (and consequently heat) for say a month or two, that usually takes care of it. But some mobile devices (especially fanless ones) are “too good” at thermal management, making this difficult. And even for devices with fans, you want to run them in a clean environment so you don’t prematurely fill the fans up with dust or worse.
Maybe more feedback than questions, although if there are roadmap items that would address these it'd be good to know! I'm really excited about this — besides repairability, I think the USB-C expansion cards are great, and a really neat solution to a tricky problem. I love the idea of never having to carry a USB-C dongle ever again, particularly when travelling.
The blocker that is stopping me ordering this today (besides being in Canada) is:
1. The display. I've spent the last several years using laptops with higher resolution displays (either Macbook Pros or, more recently, a 4k Dell XPS 13), and honestly, I'm not going back. It's a shame that the one thing that doesn't seem to be upgradeable right now is the screen configuration. (I realise that the Framework's display isn't exactly low-res, but it feels like it's going to be in an uncanny valley of not quite HiDPI/Retina.)
Beyond that, other things I wish were different (or at least clearer), but which aren't blockers:
1. Like other commenters, I don't use Windows, and I don't particularly want to pay for a Windows licence.
2. There's no mention I can see on the product page of how many external displays are supported, and in what configurations, and that's important to me.
3. I'd probably be more comfortable if some late pre-production units had made it to independent reviewers for judging things like battery life and the display. (I'd love to see an Anandtech breakdown of a Framework!)
We're pretty happy with the display. At a little over 200 PPI, it is basically just over the edge of "retina" where pixels aren't visible at normal viewing distance, while being less power-hungry than a 4k panel.
We offer the DIY Edition without Windows pre-installed, and will be publishing compatibility reports for popular Linux distros.
With Intel 11th Gen CPUs, the Framework Laptop handles up to four simultaneous displays (which can be 4x external displays if you turn off the internal one).
We'll be making review units available before we start shipping products out.
Do we have to do this on every thread about laptops?
Just because you don't care about 4K or retina doesn't mean it's marketing juju. People obviously find value in it.
I use 2k and 4k screens with scaling on, and it makes text and edges very clear and smooth. It reduces my eye strain significantly. Lower res than 2k is very visibly fuzzy.
It's fine if you don't value that, but to act like it's "not practical in any way" is plainly wrong.
There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
As long as we can also stop claiming that a machine is automatically unusable because it has a slightly lower resolution, sure. People seem oddly convinced that only their preferred resolution / pixel density is valid in both directions.
you realize "2K" is just 1080p, right? it's hard to find a lower resolution than 1080p in 2021 unless you go digging deep in the bargain bin. to my eyes, 1080p is more than enough for a 13" display, but possibly insufficient for 15"+. ymmv, of course.
> There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
people get frustrated when they can't find a SKU with their preferred feature set. 4K is not without its drawbacks (dramatically increased power consumption and lackluster hidpi support in some software). imo, 1440p is a much more reasonable upgrade for most laptop sizes, but it seems that most models only offer 1080p and 4K SKUs. sometimes you can't get the high end parts without also getting a 4K panel.
It matters because you want to scale in integer amounts. So 110 dpi is fine. 220 too. Even 330. So it's not just higher number better, but the right number better.
Thank you very much for what you build. It's amazing, and will be the perfect replacement for my aging laptop.
The only thing missing for me is an ethernet port (which I need to connect to the internal network at work). Do you have any plan to add it as an extension card ? If no, any technical reasons why not ?
Thanks! We are developing an Ethernet Expansion Card. Due to the size of the receptacle and magnetics required, it'll bump out rather than being flush like the other cards, but still more convenient than an external dongle.
When Apple came out with flat keyboards (~2007/2008?) the entire industry copied the trend.
The tops of the keys are flat, giving very little "context" to your fingers for accurate typing. It is hard to find the center or edges of the keys, which would be easier on sculpted keys which are concave and conform to your fingers.
Do manufacturers even make keyboards like that for laptops anymore?
We put a lot of effort into great keyboard feel on the Framework laptop, both in terms of key travel (1.5mm) and key shape. There are limits to what you can do in a 15.85mm thick machine, but we stack up well compared to most other thin and light notebooks on keyboard quality.
Why go with an intel plastform right now when AMD laptops CPU are lapping intel ones for heavily multithreaded work like compiling? I suspect for developers which probably represent a larger than normal segment of your potential customers, that AMD cpus would have been the better choice for battery life and multithread?
Does it run on Free Software? Put another way, what would the FSF Respects Your Freedom programme [0] make of it? How does it compare to the Purism Librem machines?
The lack of upgradability of laptops is a huge problem, especially when so many come with 16GB or even a piddling 8GB of RAM - I'm excited to see you guys actually shipping!
Do you have any plans to sell in the UK and Europe, through a distributor or otherwise?
> To maximize eye comfort, we use a DC mode backlight controller instead of a PWM one that can cause visible flickering
I hope this still stands, and it uses true DC dimming. If so, thank you so much!
These days it is hard to find non-PWM laptops even in premium segment.
Even high-frequency PWM is not great for eyestrain, so DC dimming is really appreciated! Some manufacturers go as low as 250HZ.
p.s.
If anyone wants to check if your display has PWM:
0. All OLED screens utilize PWM. They are terrible to view in low light environment. This means that all new phones and OLED laptops are terrible for night reading, don't do it! If you are curious about headaches after extensive screen time, guess no more.
1. For LCD laptops, however, set display brightness at 10% (can try different settings in low range, too)
2. Open some bright content (e.g. blank white page) and go to some completely dark room.
3. Using phone camera's preview screen, set it to photo mode and play with different settings of exposure (in pro/advanced settings) while pointing at the screen: try 1/8000, 1/250, etc. Also try slow-motion capture of the screen. High-frequency PWM (new Mac laptops) is quite bad, but hard to detect without special equipment, but still can easily put eyestrain. Low frequency PWM is much easier to detect with just a phone camera.
Hi, thanks for your availability and a cool product.
I wonder if you plan to make the hardware spec (or parts thereof like the form factor) open source? It's nota deal breaker if you don't, but would be a big plus if you do (although more challenging from a business logic standpoint, but Red Hat seems to have done OK).
Yep, that is right. We're releasing reference CAD and documentation under open licenses for some modules like the Expansion Cards to enable community development.
1. Will there be an ISO option for the keyboard layout? (To support non-US layouts, and for those who aren't familiar, just changing the key mapping isn't sufficient, ISO has an extra key and a different shape on the enter key)
2. Any plans to support Sensel touchpads? The tech is really amazing (I've heard the latest described as better than a macbook)
Yes, we have some photos on the website currently showing ANSI and ISO keyboard geometry. As we continue to add more keyboard languages, there will be both ANSI and ISO ones depending on the language (and JIS for Japan).
The touchpad is replaceable, though we don't currently have plans for alternate types.
That resolution is so close to 2X! Why not just a little bit denser so that desktops can integer scale instead of 1.8x?
EDIT: Just did the math and your screen is 200dpi... which is very close to the 220 or so I'm used to on high-dpi, 13" screens. Maybe close enough that it won't matter?
It is! You can actually unplug or take out the battery and still be able to run the system. Configurable charge limits is on our firmware roadmap, though unlikely to be available at launch time.
Any plans for display with at least 99% Adobe RGB (for working with pictures color grading)? Good uniform brightness would also be nice. It doesn't need to be as good as Eizo/Nec, but something on the level of BenQ PhotoVue would be nice.
And if it supported hardware calibration that would be on completely another level.
I am really excited for this and consider buying a second gen next year if they support Linux. But $2000 + tax for a quad core is pretty brutal (i7-1185G7).
I got a 14” notebook with a Ryzen 7 4800H for less than 1000€ from a small vendor (Tuxedo).
Hard to choose this as it stands. Still I would support them and pay the markup. Hopefully they can support AMD CPUs in their next models.
Just a note that the Base configuration that starts at $999 is also a quad core, the i5-1135G7. The i7-1185G7 is really only necessary if you need vPro for enterprise fleet management reasons (we also have a i7-1165G7 SKU for folks who want higher clocks but not vPro).
Okay but that does not make it better. A slightly higher boost clock on one hand vs a strong octa-core CPU on the other (and this is last year’s generation).
Are you able to elaborate on why there's no AMD option? I've preordered a DIY one, with the hope that down the line I can put an AMD main board in. (Still undecided on whether I'll want it if that never becomes an option)
We designed our mainboard system to be able upgradeable to future CPU platforms. We have nothing we can share around that today, but it's a core part of the product!
The chances seem good that some upgrades will be possible to make as a third party too, maybe not a new motherboard - though I wouldn’t be that surprised to see somewhat put an ARM SoC in there - but the ports are based on USB-C and it’s definitely reasonable for someone to design their own.
IMO Samsung is taking laptops to 2.0, making them as functional and ergonomic as phones, and after apple follows, this will look like the very best 1.0 laptop.
Congratulations to the founder(s) on the launch. Wishing you nothing but success!
Nice to see a pluggable approach at a time when "repairability" is catching the fancy of the whole world.
If I had to nitpick, it would be the fact that Linux is unfortunately a second class citizen. However, I do see that support for mainstream distros is available. Can you possibly shed some light on that and be a bit more specific? What distros have you tested? What are the outcomes?
We dogfood regularly on Ubuntu LTS and Fedora, and we've been working with the team at Fedora (and have provided them a pre-release unit). In general, the only issue we foresee in the near term is that the fingerprint reader likely won't work out of the box in Linux. There is a driver though, and we're working on making that setup as easy as possible until it is in mainline.
Can you please ensure that you support Linux Vendor Firmware Service (LVFS)[1] i.e ensure your vendors support it.
Edit: Bit more rant about LVFS goodness
Even my Logitech 2.4 Ghz receiver gets regular updates on LVFS, can't remember it happening even with official Logitech SW on Mac/Windows. LVFS fixes the embedded controller security/bugs mess. A functional laptop like Framework when released with first class support for Linux features like LVFS can add more value to the customer.
Do you plan to sell the prebuilt systems with linux preinstalled (or with no OS)? I have no desire for my money to go to Microsoft, and no desire for Windows, but the prebuilt model is intriguing to me.
Preloading a Linux distro is something we may do in the future. We've made the DIY Edition super easy to set up though for folks who don't want Windows in the meantime.
preinstalled linux is a hard requirement for many users, even if they want to reinstall it themselves. It gives an assurance that CPU throttling, suspension, hibernation, will work correctly. Otherwise it feels like a lottery. Of course a linux install is easy and will always work; but will it work correctly? If you offer preinstalled linuxes we can be sure it does.
I'd buy this in a heartbeat if I could get a guarantee that it would work well with Linux. Having Linux pre-installed is one way to signal confidence that it works well with Linux.
My nitpicking is about its offering only Intel CPUs. Hello? Why do Intel at all, these days? What everybody is desperate for are AMD laptops, which are barely available from the volume makers.
1. AMD is having major supply issues and is not allocating their supply towards laptops. Laptops are just not a huge priority for them right now when all of the consoles, desktop CPUs, and GPUs are flying off the shelves.
2. Intel not only has consistent supply but Intel frequently works with "experimental" projects like this helping OEMs with design. Complete speculation but I would not be surprised if Intel had a hand in the design of this laptop.
Agreed. Zen3 would’ve been killer and cooler to boot.
I wonder if it is a supply concern? Zen2 laptops also ~seemed~ in scarce supply for quite some time last year, even after the launch.
How to tease out Intel’s anti-competitive belligerence versus actual supply issues? Zen3 on desktop seems to be regularly available, but desktop is lower volume than mobile.
This really deserves an AMD variant.
I would suspect Intel has juicy bundle discounts, especially if this is a part of the EVO program (which I don’t think it publicly is).
Intel coerces the big guys by gaming their supply chain.
A little startup will not have got the attention of Intel, and their total volume needs are much more easily satisfied by what they can get from AMD's limited delivery than a big player could be.
Because Intel is willing to pay ODMs for pushing chips. If you want AMD go and buy ~$700 Acer Swift 3 14 Ryzen 7 4700U 16GB 512GB same 3:2 2K IPS screen.
Yeah, it's throwing 500s for me when I try to preorder.
I'm very excited for this laptop! It's not even the fact that they essentially moved the dongles inside the frame, it's that it feels like a laptop for people who want to open it up and replace stuff.
Hey this looks great. Looking forward to Linux compatibility statement.
The site looks like it's getting the hug of death, which is going to be hard dealing with on Rails unless you have some kind of caching. It looks like you're on Cloudflare. I would recommend doing site rules and turn on static html caching for a lot of front facing pages. Basically anything that isn't the laptop build page.
Thanks! On Linux, we dogfood on Ubuntu LTS and Fedora, and have a pre-release unit with the Fedora team. We'll be publishing more detailed compatibility results soon, but it looks good.
We've designed the mainboard (with CPU) to be upgradeable. Since the storage, memory, ports, and WiFi are socketed, that reduces the cost of the mainboard by itself.
I already replaced my battery 2 times, speakers once, wifi once. All was just so still possible on my 2016 laptop. I have an even older laptop with broken screen in use too.
If only I didn't want to run a game every now and than :). I now wonder what to get next:
- another laptop with a dedicated gpu
- something like this here and some usb-c gpu as soon as the onboard gpu doesn't do the trick anymore
- or a desktop for games and media stuff (and a pinebook for typing and youtube or just use my machine from work)
Oh that's right. I had a mostly fun time with google stadia. My internet latency is just good enough, even for shooters. Some days it was playable, others it wasn't.
They do focus on AAA games though, which I don't want to afford as a casual player. I like multiplayer with friends so we usually play not to pricy or free things.
The only "single player" I'm hoping for would be MS flight sim, but even there I'd just sing a few hours, not more.
To me it feels like I should invest in a good machine with a GPU another time because:
- streaming games is just not ripe enough
- I'll keep the machine for >5 years. Good to have one bottleneck less and such long usage is worth some investment.
Doing some math:
5 years * 12 month * 12$ or subscription = 720$
If I'm generous and say my gpu only stays up to date 3 years: 430$
So I have 430$ at least to spare for a local GPU and for the first 3 years will have the better performance (lag, compression, internet-dependence) and for the last 2 years I can still think about renting for another 300$.
I'd say if I keep my current computer it's worth it, if I buy a new one anyways I should get one with a gpu.
Really exciting and congrats on the launch! I was somewhat hoping there would be “see through” options for the bezel and the keyboard/trackpad frame - maybe a future consideration? I’m likely going to order one in the near future to use as my Linux driver.
Thanks! We actually do have a clear keyboard design (https://youtu.be/XFrJcjCbCA8?t=1005) which we'll be making available later this summer. We've prototyped a transparent bezel too, but aren't happy with the quality on it just yet. That is something we'd love to make available too though.
I wish i could buy it in parts, the customs in my country doesn't allow anything above 200 usd to go throught. I wish i could buy one day the frame, other day yhe motherboard and so on...
A lot of countries have "de minimus" thresholds below which an individual can import duty-free. In the US for reference, it's $800, but other countries have other limits. If you're over that limit, either the product needs to be delivered duty paid (DDP) by the importer or if it is un-paid, the end recipient has to jump through some hoops to pay, with varying complexity in different countries.
Trade logistics is an interesting challenge, and one we want to solve so our customers don't have to... That is part of why we're introducing new regions in phases.
Thanks for doing this! It would be very nice to know the list of countries where you will ship this year.
I was very excited and ordered it to an US address. But that means: I pay US tax + shipping/forwarding costs + local import tax of 30% on anything above USD150.
Also, I will have to order an ISO keyboard separately, when it becomes available (and it is not clear when that happens). I figured out that metal cover should be compatible between US and ISO keyboards, right?
It looks like a design some other laptops use, with the top enclosure cut to fit both ANSI (horizontal) and ISO (vertical) enter keys, so there's no silver metal case between the enter key and the one next to it, just dark plastic from the keyboard.
Actually, I'm curious why coreboot (probably with TianoCore and maybe SeaBIOS payloads) isn't wildly popular; is it just that companies making motherboards (I think?) just tend to do their own think and OEMs just go with that by default so it'd be extra work? Because if every OEM had to go get a firmware implementation for every machine, I'd naively expect coreboot to be super widespread just by virtue of costing nothing and probably having better tooling than the proprietary alternatives.
How does the DIY edition work? It seems to be cheaper to get that and bring your own parts than it is to get a preconfigured version. Do you just insert the missing parts (memory, ssd, wifi)? Or do you have to assemble the whole thing from scratch?
> The DIY Edition is the only high-end laptop you can customize and assemble yourself from a kit of modules. Coming in at just 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg, the Framework Laptop delivers the modularity of a desktop in the form factor of a thin and light 13.5” notebook.
Right but what does the "kit of modules" consist of? Do I have to assemble the motheboard/case/display/keyboard? Or is it just the configurable components (memory, ssd, wifi)?
207 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 199 ms ] threadI wish I could find the use for one, but I'm stuck with Apple's laptops for as long as I work in app development.
1. How much thicker & heavier is this laptop than similar screen size MacBook Pro and Thinkpads? (Is the battery life comparable?)
2. Is there soldered-on RAM and/or expansion slots?
3. Can this run linux without any hitch?
——
PS: Website seems to be down for now.
> Framework is undergoing maintenance right now. Please check back in a few minutes.
We're at almost exactly the same thickness and weight as a MacBook Pro 13-inch, and lighter and thinner than most T-series ThinkPads.
The storage, both memory sockets, and WiFi are socketed for upgradeability, and the entire mainboard is upgradeable too!
We're testing for compatibility with major linux distributions, and expect near complete support (with potentially only the fingerprint reader driver coming in later).
“ 500 Internal Server Error If you are the administrator of this website, then please read this web application's log file and/or the web server's log file to find out what went wrong.”
The hug of death.
The site is down for the moment. What is the situation about warranty?
Do you plan to offer multi-year options? I’m all for repairing my own laptop, but if there is an option to pay upfront for some peace of mind on at least the parts, I’d bite.
While the reparability helps (as I'm used to even $800 laptops calling for $300 screens + webcam + Wi-Fi antenna), if it's profitable for Framework, it'd be an instant buy here.
How do you track quality during development, production, product planning and polling for customer satisfaction?
Can you share some thoughts on the current state of quality assurance in the industry in general? Is this an area for product differentiation?
Which three parts in a laptop have the highest failure rate, and what are those rates?
What I can’t wrap my head around is, a consumer that feels strongly about repairing laptops themselves, for clearly non-economic reasons, but would balk at the cost of a laptop manufactured in the West, which is 100% of the labor the day the laptop ships, because then the computer would cost 3 times as much.
In typical consumer notebooks, batteries, hinges, ports, and keyboards would be parts that wear out over time. We've designed the Framework Laptop to make each of those easy to swap as needed.
The QR Code in the transparency section doesnt work:
https://i.imgur.com/TjfcWOP.png
"page doesnt exist"
I’ve had problems with offgassing odors that never seem to go away on multiple monitors, MacBooks and an iPad in recent years. This leads to headaches that makes it impossible to use the machines for more than a few minutes, even with good room ventilation.
It would be great to buy a laptop that is known to be low offgassing. I was wondering if a Framework laptop would have less glue and could be more effective offgassed in a shed by disassembling the components and ventilating.
Heat increases the rate of offgassing, so a medium amount of heat in well power managed devices can draw out the time for which there is noticeable offgassing for years. I have found if you can burn-in a computer or TV with heavy load (and consequently heat) for say a month or two, that usually takes care of it. But some mobile devices (especially fanless ones) are “too good” at thermal management, making this difficult. And even for devices with fans, you want to run them in a clean environment so you don’t prematurely fill the fans up with dust or worse.
The blocker that is stopping me ordering this today (besides being in Canada) is:
1. The display. I've spent the last several years using laptops with higher resolution displays (either Macbook Pros or, more recently, a 4k Dell XPS 13), and honestly, I'm not going back. It's a shame that the one thing that doesn't seem to be upgradeable right now is the screen configuration. (I realise that the Framework's display isn't exactly low-res, but it feels like it's going to be in an uncanny valley of not quite HiDPI/Retina.)
Beyond that, other things I wish were different (or at least clearer), but which aren't blockers:
1. Like other commenters, I don't use Windows, and I don't particularly want to pay for a Windows licence. 2. There's no mention I can see on the product page of how many external displays are supported, and in what configurations, and that's important to me. 3. I'd probably be more comfortable if some late pre-production units had made it to independent reviewers for judging things like battery life and the display. (I'd love to see an Anandtech breakdown of a Framework!)
We offer the DIY Edition without Windows pre-installed, and will be publishing compatibility reports for popular Linux distros.
With Intel 11th Gen CPUs, the Framework Laptop handles up to four simultaneous displays (which can be 4x external displays if you turn off the internal one).
We'll be making review units available before we start shipping products out.
Just because you don't care about 4K or retina doesn't mean it's marketing juju. People obviously find value in it.
I use 2k and 4k screens with scaling on, and it makes text and edges very clear and smooth. It reduces my eye strain significantly. Lower res than 2k is very visibly fuzzy.
It's fine if you don't value that, but to act like it's "not practical in any way" is plainly wrong.
There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
> There are people in every laptop thread pushing the narrative that anyone who prefers a higher resolution screen is delusional or lying. It's really strange.
people get frustrated when they can't find a SKU with their preferred feature set. 4K is not without its drawbacks (dramatically increased power consumption and lackluster hidpi support in some software). imo, 1440p is a much more reasonable upgrade for most laptop sizes, but it seems that most models only offer 1080p and 4K SKUs. sometimes you can't get the high end parts without also getting a 4K panel.
The only thing missing for me is an ethernet port (which I need to connect to the internal network at work). Do you have any plan to add it as an extension card ? If no, any technical reasons why not ?
Some dell latitude laptops have a connector that "packs" itself, making it slim enough to be buit-in, without bumps. Is this an option for you folks?
How much do you think it will bump out? Will the laptop be stable on an even surface?
The tops of the keys are flat, giving very little "context" to your fingers for accurate typing. It is hard to find the center or edges of the keys, which would be easier on sculpted keys which are concave and conform to your fingers.
Do manufacturers even make keyboards like that for laptops anymore?
https://www.notebookcheck.net/X1-Carbon-Gen-9-Lenovo-has-to-...
Does it run on Free Software? Put another way, what would the FSF Respects Your Freedom programme [0] make of it? How does it compare to the Purism Librem machines?
[0] https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27150566
Do you have any plans to sell in the UK and Europe, through a distributor or otherwise?
> To maximize eye comfort, we use a DC mode backlight controller instead of a PWM one that can cause visible flickering
I hope this still stands, and it uses true DC dimming. If so, thank you so much!
These days it is hard to find non-PWM laptops even in premium segment.
Even high-frequency PWM is not great for eyestrain, so DC dimming is really appreciated! Some manufacturers go as low as 250HZ.
p.s.
If anyone wants to check if your display has PWM:
0. All OLED screens utilize PWM. They are terrible to view in low light environment. This means that all new phones and OLED laptops are terrible for night reading, don't do it! If you are curious about headaches after extensive screen time, guess no more.
1. For LCD laptops, however, set display brightness at 10% (can try different settings in low range, too)
2. Open some bright content (e.g. blank white page) and go to some completely dark room.
3. Using phone camera's preview screen, set it to photo mode and play with different settings of exposure (in pro/advanced settings) while pointing at the screen: try 1/8000, 1/250, etc. Also try slow-motion capture of the screen. High-frequency PWM (new Mac laptops) is quite bad, but hard to detect without special equipment, but still can easily put eyestrain. Low frequency PWM is much easier to detect with just a phone camera.
I wonder if you plan to make the hardware spec (or parts thereof like the form factor) open source? It's nota deal breaker if you don't, but would be a big plus if you do (although more challenging from a business logic standpoint, but Red Hat seems to have done OK).
I've got two questions about input:
1. Will there be an ISO option for the keyboard layout? (To support non-US layouts, and for those who aren't familiar, just changing the key mapping isn't sufficient, ISO has an extra key and a different shape on the enter key)
2. Any plans to support Sensel touchpads? The tech is really amazing (I've heard the latest described as better than a macbook)
The touchpad is replaceable, though we don't currently have plans for alternate types.
EDIT: Just did the math and your screen is 200dpi... which is very close to the 220 or so I'm used to on high-dpi, 13" screens. Maybe close enough that it won't matter?
Alternatively, is it possible to cap the battery charging at, say, 60-80%?
Since one of the key aspects of the laptop is the longevity and serviceability of the hardware, I am curious how the battery health can be managed.
And if it supported hardware calibration that would be on completely another level.
I got a 14” notebook with a Ryzen 7 4800H for less than 1000€ from a small vendor (Tuxedo).
Hard to choose this as it stands. Still I would support them and pay the markup. Hopefully they can support AMD CPUs in their next models.
If I had to nitpick, it would be the fact that Linux is unfortunately a second class citizen. However, I do see that support for mainstream distros is available. Can you possibly shed some light on that and be a bit more specific? What distros have you tested? What are the outcomes?
Edit: Bit more rant about LVFS goodness
Even my Logitech 2.4 Ghz receiver gets regular updates on LVFS, can't remember it happening even with official Logitech SW on Mac/Windows. LVFS fixes the embedded controller security/bugs mess. A functional laptop like Framework when released with first class support for Linux features like LVFS can add more value to the customer.
[1]https://fwupd.org/
With that one specific preinstalled kernel image.
For what it's worth, I had two XPS 13s in a row and the one that came with Ubuntu pre-installed had _way_ worse hardware compatibility problems.
Now there's a repairable, upgradable choice, it's going to be hard to get me to do anything else.
1. AMD is having major supply issues and is not allocating their supply towards laptops. Laptops are just not a huge priority for them right now when all of the consoles, desktop CPUs, and GPUs are flying off the shelves.
2. Intel not only has consistent supply but Intel frequently works with "experimental" projects like this helping OEMs with design. Complete speculation but I would not be surprised if Intel had a hand in the design of this laptop.
I wonder if it is a supply concern? Zen2 laptops also ~seemed~ in scarce supply for quite some time last year, even after the launch.
How to tease out Intel’s anti-competitive belligerence versus actual supply issues? Zen3 on desktop seems to be regularly available, but desktop is lower volume than mobile.
This really deserves an AMD variant.
I would suspect Intel has juicy bundle discounts, especially if this is a part of the EVO program (which I don’t think it publicly is).
I really like the idea of Framework - especially how easily the KB appears to be replaceable.
The keyboards on the Clio made S76 machines I had (gazelles) were completely non-replaceable.
What would be great ultimately is a splash-proof kb on a machine.
A little startup will not have got the attention of Intel, and their total volume needs are much more easily satisfied by what they can get from AMD's limited delivery than a big player could be.
I'm very excited for this laptop! It's not even the fact that they essentially moved the dongles inside the frame, it's that it feels like a laptop for people who want to open it up and replace stuff.
The site looks like it's getting the hug of death, which is going to be hard dealing with on Rails unless you have some kind of caching. It looks like you're on Cloudflare. I would recommend doing site rules and turn on static html caching for a lot of front facing pages. Basically anything that isn't the laptop build page.
We're definitely having some back end issues under the load! As noted elsewhere, we're hiring in this area (help us, please): https://jobs.lever.co/framework/6935fb47-2921-49df-b94c-e45c...
And how future proof/upgradable are cpu and gpu? I assume storage, ram, motherboard and usb-c will take you far otherwise.
And I wonder if it's available in Europe.
edit: oh, no dedicated GPU.
Is there a usb-c gpu that would be compatible? (edit: we'll see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27144085 )
I already replaced my battery 2 times, speakers once, wifi once. All was just so still possible on my 2016 laptop. I have an even older laptop with broken screen in use too.
If only I didn't want to run a game every now and than :). I now wonder what to get next:
- another laptop with a dedicated gpu
- something like this here and some usb-c gpu as soon as the onboard gpu doesn't do the trick anymore
- or a desktop for games and media stuff (and a pinebook for typing and youtube or just use my machine from work)
I hear surprisingly good things about remote options like https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce-now/ which would avoid you needing the hardware at all.
They do focus on AAA games though, which I don't want to afford as a casual player. I like multiplayer with friends so we usually play not to pricy or free things.
The only "single player" I'm hoping for would be MS flight sim, but even there I'd just sing a few hours, not more.
To me it feels like I should invest in a good machine with a GPU another time because:
- streaming games is just not ripe enough
- I'll keep the machine for >5 years. Good to have one bottleneck less and such long usage is worth some investment.
---
edit: maybe I should look in to https://shadow.tech/
Doing some math: 5 years * 12 month * 12$ or subscription = 720$
If I'm generous and say my gpu only stays up to date 3 years: 430$
So I have 430$ at least to spare for a local GPU and for the first 3 years will have the better performance (lag, compression, internet-dependence) and for the last 2 years I can still think about renting for another 300$.
I'd say if I keep my current computer it's worth it, if I buy a new one anyways I should get one with a gpu.
uh oh, monthly pricing is 15eur
The lack of Thunderbolt makes it a complete no-go right now.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27053745
They either listened to me or I should be a contestant on "The Price is Right". ;)
probably import tariffs on tech products, with exceptions if it's below a certain amount.
Trade logistics is an interesting challenge, and one we want to solve so our customers don't have to... That is part of why we're introducing new regions in phases.
I was very excited and ordered it to an US address. But that means: I pay US tax + shipping/forwarding costs + local import tax of 30% on anything above USD150.
Also, I will have to order an ISO keyboard separately, when it becomes available (and it is not clear when that happens). I figured out that metal cover should be compatible between US and ISO keyboards, right?
The last time I bought a laptop was 2014. It was a Macbook Pro 15'. Even then, 8 GB was an irritating amount of RAM, so I bumped it up to 16 GB.
7 years later things have hardly improved.
my theory: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27097103
I would buy it just for the blank ISO keyboard. I hope you also add shipping from the EU.
BTW. Why does the Enter key look so strange?
It looks like a design some other laptops use, with the top enclosure cut to fit both ANSI (horizontal) and ISO (vertical) enter keys, so there's no silver metal case between the enter key and the one next to it, just dark plastic from the keyboard.
That's too bad they don't talk about this DIY pre-order option that allows to customize a lot of things.
They even say they support Linux, which is a great selling point.
> Build it Yourself
> The DIY Edition is the only high-end laptop you can customize and assemble yourself from a kit of modules. Coming in at just 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg, the Framework Laptop delivers the modularity of a desktop in the form factor of a thin and light 13.5” notebook.
So make it a an option please.