It’s also kind of a crazy library (eg letting you magically shell out to commands—one step away from a 90s-style IFS security hole). I think it’s more of a fun exercise in crazy things you can do with C preprocessor macros.
But think about the general implications: the general idea of 'Virgin vs Chad' is that 'Chad' gets more sex than the Virgin. Its basically incel logic in some regards, or glorifying toxic masculinity to an extent. Its innate to the meme.
So it is what it is. Like many things on the internet, its kind of a mean message if you stop and think about it. On the other hand, I know its "just a joke" (but I'm aware that some "joke" evolve over the months and/or years into... well... not jokes. Serious things).
Context for everything. Maybe the incel community will suddenly adopt the meme and use it "seriously", which would make it unfun. (I don't follow many incel groups, so I wouldn't know if they picked up on this meme yet). Kinda like how "Red Pill" was fine when it was just a Matrix reference, but suddenly turned into right-wing virtue signaling... the underlying context and/or culture behind the meme is often more important than the actual message.
If it were all just a joke then it might be fun and games but it's certainly not professional.
But it's also not just a joke. It's really sad and depressing because incels are real and there are real people who think and perceive reality through those fucked up lenses.
So why accept their meaning of it? You can acknowledge that some people see it in that way that you disagree with but you can also see it in your own way. Why require them to change? Why be held hostage to the opinions of others because someone has a different idea from you? That's sad, and crazy, because the implications is you require everyone in the world to have the same ideas as you, ideological purity, or you won't touch it. Which is sad, crazy, toxic and dangerous. But people promoting that sort of persecutory viewpoint seem to lack the empathy or awareness to see what their own position really is.
When i see this, i think it's reasonably funny, i understand it might upset some people, but i also think, what's wrong with virgins? I know some people might be of the view that associating the so called "less desirable" traits with virgins is "unfair", but i just see it as, funny and dumb that people would actually believe that has any validity, because it presupposes some idea that virgins are bad. So what's wrong with being a virgin? I hold all these competing interpretations in my head at once but i don't let the ones i dislike win out, i just keep my own. I think the ideological purity requirement where you demand other people drop interpretations that you dislike, is toxic because you think you can control other people's thoughts, saying other people are "wrong" because of an idea in your own head, and failing to grok the key personal responsibility boundary that other people are not responsible for your feelings. If you arrive at a set of interpretations that you find personally upsetting, change the set, because you're giving validity to that interpretation that you pretended to disagree with, because if you had your own interpretation that disagreed with that you wouldn't be so troubled by these other ones you dislike. I agree that this is s hard thing to do sometimes, but precisely I think to the degree to which you are internally validating the interpretation you find repellant. It's actually very helpful to shift your own perspective, in these cases.
Don't confuse this with other cases where it's more clear cut and people are doing something bad. I'm not saying "interpret" away bad intent, or bad actions, just... In cases where you can see the competing interpretations, (maybe indicated by the fact that there's a lot of other people who are not troubled by this and think that it's okay, which is perhaps a defining characteristic of things where you shouldn't be interpreting away the bad intent or bad actions are where the majority the vast majority of people not just people in your echo chamber but the vast majority of people find these thing repellent and bad and only a small, generally regarded as twisted, minority think it's acceptable), but when you have a case like this where there are competing interpretations, and you find yourself arriving at interpretations which you dislike then don't require everyone else to change and drop their interpretations, or not say the things they think, rather just own your own reactions and change your own dominant interpretation in your head. Say you don't like this because you make it mean people are saying virgins are weak and awful, and you're a virgin, so you feel people are attacking you. But say you also feel deep down that there's nothing wrong with being a virgin. So just hold to your own interpretation and make that dominant. So you think it's funny because all these people are counting on the implicit association that virgins are not good but you think what's wrong with being a virgin so you think it's funny that all these people have that belief. That they have that belief doesn't affect your belief and trust in yourself. But if deep down you really hate yourself then you'll have to change that belief but if you do hate yourself then that's not something you can blame other peo...
I just personally don't think it's funny because it's depressing to think about the people who actually think this way. I'd rather not give it any air at all. Like I don't think it's funny to dunk on really, and I think those people are generally unwell so it's really punching down which is not something I think is good or funny. My opinion on this doesn't actually matter to anyone who isn't me, so whatever I guess, just stating it, same as anyone else here.
However in the context of the GP, they're 100% correct in the sense that this isn't appropriate for the workplace. So it's kind of a shame that it's actually technically very good/useful.
The author is free to do whatever they want. I'm not asking them to change, but it's definitely a shame to tie this otherwise good code to this meme.
The only shame I think is tying the work, and yourself, to an interpretation of the meme, something you make it mean, that you dislike, and then saying someone else's work is lessened because you've interpreted it in those ways that you judge bad.
Maybe that meaning wasn't in the mind of the creator at all. Or maybe the people who you believe think a certain way actually feel another way about it. Whatever the "meme trope" or specific "meme instance" creator intended it to mean (if anything), that doesn't mean that's the "only" meaning a thing can have.
It might mean one thing to some person or group and something to you. To me it's funny that they think associating negative traits with "virgin" is a valid comparison. To me, it's obviously not but so laughable that while the jokes the people are making about coding, to me, are funny, the ways they frame it, is funny for being so immature.. But it's humour, I don't want to "explain" it. Maybe they use this meme with irony, appropriate the "chad-virgin" dichotomy, in a satirical way, as they think it's false.
Seriously, who cares? Who cares what the creator made it mean, in the basic sense. Because you have the power to interpret it your way. Why limit your joy by thinking, someone somewhere might see this in a way they dislike, therefore I cannot enjoy it. I know it's not easy, because you can be aware of how other people might take it, but that doesn't mean you have to align with that. Otherwise the world is this network where everyone's watching everyone else for "heretical behavior or thought" and trying to bizarrely punish that, just because they can't make a good boundary between their thoughts and feelings, and everyone else's. Everyone can make it mean what they want. It's a subtle point, easy to nod at but hard to actually grok what that means. You're judging this work, and this meme based on what you're making it mean, based on how you're choosing to interpret what you believe some other group of people, who you believe it's connected to, makes it mean. You're hostage to what you think are the beliefs of some other group. I don't think you're crazy, but I think that idea is crazy, because you're free to make it mean what you want. It's pretty common nowadays tho I think.
Again saying it's not appropriate to the workplace is a whole other set of relative value judgments and interpretations. Because the word "virgin" is included and maybe someone can connect this meme to some group they're afraid of or they judge as bad, therefore a workplace is unable to handle that? I think that says something about the toxic/unworkable fragility of workplaces. We should be robust enough to be able to consider these cultural artefacts without creating danger or toxicity. If we cannot consider something, we're unable to really reflect on that, and I believe the workplace culture can be at risk of emanating those things it will not allow itself to really engage with or see. To be it's an obvious but also subtle point. We won't allow ourselves to look at a sort of implicit bias that might be present somehow in one interpretation of a meme? Then we also won't see it in the workplace. And "everything's fine" when really a workplace culture is toxic. Introspection and criticism can be shielded behind the arbitrary "area denial" system of "inappropriate for workplace". There's clearly lines (i.e, people just casually sharing porn in a non-porn-industry workplace, totally uncool, right? because that's some private intimate activity related thing that has nothing to do with sort of workplace relationships)...but sharing memes and humour? That's not ok? I've noticed European commenters say before that American workplaces are too afraid of themselves. I don't know if you're view c...
I appreciate your long and thought-out responses, truly I do. However it seems like we're partially talking past each other so hopefully I can fully clarify.
You've pretty clearly stated how you feel in no uncertain terms. I understand that and I accept that. I have clearly stated how I feel. My thoughts/feelings are my own, and I don't need to radically change the way I think or view the world because I'm being held under some yoke of some imposed belief or way of thinking. We disagree. That's fine. It's obviously not going to change but please don't proceed with this idea that I just don't "get it".
The work is intrinsically tied to the meme. That is how I feel about the meme. Authorial intent, whatever it may be, isn't particularly relevant in criticism beyond the subjective interpretation of whether they achieved it or not. I don't know and neither do you as neither of are the author and I don't see them spelling it out. I'm sure they mean it as a light-hearted joke, but I still disagree with the idea that it is funny.
I'm not here to change (and am certainly not able to change) what does or doesn't fly in the offices of Corporate America. Culture vary (as do opinions as previously stated), but even if you think this is funny I wouldn't recommend you use it or share it around in the office for due to the potential consequences of the implications and language it contains. Whether that is good or bad morally or for our society or culture is also a matter of opinion and beside the point.
Personally I find a lot of humor in other things that I don't think are appropriate for the workplace or a professional setting. I don't feel restrained under some yoke of society, there is just a time and place for certain things. People very naturally change mannerisms and ways of speaking to tailor them to whoever is on the receiving end. There is a pretty obvious and the reason is pretty simple.
I guess if you really want to push it all the way out sure, I'm crushed under the yoke of caring about other people and having empathy. I guess I'm okay with that. But I'm not a hostage to what I think someone else beliefs are. I'm a hostage to my own, which include generally trying not to be an asshole.
Make of that what you will, but I am my own person. I'm not missing some greater truth or liberated way of thinking. You're quite literally also evaluating things based on a relative set of value judgements and interpretations the same way I am, they're just the ones you have and ours are different.
As previously stated, I'm not asking/imploring/demanding the author to change anything. I'm just sharing how I feel about it.
It sounds as if you're saying, "You took me the wrong way here, what I really meant was this is my personal opinion about it, I'm sorry you didn't like that, but this is how I feel about it. I don't recommend you share in workplace, because whether that culture is good or bad, blowback is expected, and nobody's going to change that. And hey, it's pretty unfair to pretend I'm just under the yoke of other's beliefs and always acting in line with them, I'm a free person, but I'm just trying to be considerate, have empathy and not be an asshole is all. Geez. Thanks."
Am I hearing you right?
Yeah, I agree with you about most of that (not that agreement is important, disagreement is to be expected, everyone's different). The way your first two responses came across to me (my interpretation ;) ;p)) was that "this is how it is. No questions." I didn't detect that qualifying and empathetic, "This is how I feel, but I get and respect other's may feel differently about that." If you had that expressed in there, I missed that and if so I'm sorry that I did! :p ;) xx
While you did did mention your personal reaction to the joke itself, you seemed to frame as objective your beliefs about the larger "memetic context", to me at least.
You raise an interesting point that I was thinking about as I wrote but struggling to express in my responses. What's the connection between "being an inconsiderate asshole", "empathy" and "having proper boundaries / personal responsibility for your own thoughts and feelings" ? I'm glad you raised it. I'll try to think some more about it and write some clarity. I've been thinking about this for a while, but haven't really tried to write something clear about it. This could be a good chance, have a great day! :P ;) xx
edit: I think some clarity about the above is, you can have empathy for how other people think and feel, but that doesn't make what they think and feel neither "objectively good" nor "good for you". One extreme example: you have empathy for the rapist who is raping you, you feel their loneliness, fear of weakness and desire for love and validation, but that doesn't mean you need to "not be an asshole" and "consider their feelings" in terms of "act in line with their feelings." You can consider someone's thoughts and feelings and have empathy for that but that needn't constrain your behavior at all.
It's interesting to me that you seem to conflate the two, vis: "I guess if you really want to push it all the way out sure, I'm crushed under the yoke of caring about other people and having empathy. I guess I'm okay with that. But I'm not a hostage to what I think someone else beliefs are. I'm a hostage to my own, which include generally trying not to be an asshole."
The moral compass that constrains behavior is not set by what other people decide their feelings and thoughts are. Otherwise everyone's moral compasses are in the Bermuda triangle, never knowing which was is up. You need something more than subjective feelings and personal thoughts, as important as those things are to consider, to set morality for the bounds of behavior.
I think caring about other people, and empathy does not imply, acting in line with how other people think and feel. But it seems from your responses, that you do think that: We shouldn't enjoy this meme, or this code, or share it at work, because people might interpret it in a way where they have "negative" thoughts and emotions about it. That's basically how what you're saying seems like to me.
Perhaps we simply disagree on this point, and that's cool. What I see you saying is (ignoring further nuance I'm sure you use in practice), "Before taking any action, I must assess the thoughts and feelings of those around me, an...
Incels as a group are a growing threat on a number of domestic terrorism watchlists. Its pretty serious actually.
I don't want to understate them as a threat, but I don't want to overstate them as a threat either. Nonetheless, they are becoming more-and-more violent.
Its definitely one of those things we need to keep an eye on. If they get more violent and become a larger movement, it could be dangerous.
The grievances they air easily turn into mass shooting events. They're beginning to recognize each other as martyrs (ex: Nikolas Cruz memorialized Elliot Rodger). For some reason, they're able to find each other online and push each other into extremism and even violent acts.
Speaking of the incel movement like they are Al Qaeda is dumb. There is absolutely zero reason to be legitimately afraid of them. Sure, a couple virgins have actually killed people in real life out of sexual frustration, but that's 100% inevitable given that there are billions of people on the planet.
Don't let the threat of incels keep you up at night
I feel like I've pointed out their threat level appropriately.
Roughly on the same scale as other domestic terrorists: eco-terrorists, abortion bombers, and other mass shooters.
And it should be noted that unlike eco-terrorists or abortion bombers, an extreme violent incel wants to kill people as part of their grievances... and not just cause damage.
Incels kill fewer people each year than lightning strikes, bees, or trampolines. I'm sure law enforcement agencies are bored and concerned about having their funding cut given the collapse of ISIL, but putting funding into better mental health care instead would probably be the best way to deal with this societal issue. That would at least have the positive side effect of reducing suicide rates, which are 3-4 orders of magnitude higher than incel killings.
Per the documented incidents in the parent comment's linked Wikipedia article, incels kill well under 20 people per year on average. If you have a more comprehensive source, I'd be happy to reevaluate my position if needed.
If free mental health care was provisioned, would incels avail themselves of it? Because, last I heard, it's unmanly to talk about feelings. I agree that better (and available) mental health care is of critical importance... but how do you make a horse drink?
That's exactly the sort of post that reinforces their bleak world view. Nobody talks about helping these people achieve some measure of happiness in their lives. When they voice their difficulties, people reply with things that amount to "just be better" and "just be attractive". In other threads responses ranged from straight up dismissing their desires to have relationships as unnecessary to suggesting "cuddle parties" as if that could replace real intimacy. It feels like nobody cares about their problems and they just want to placate incels so they don't turn violent.
The fact is there's massive inequality in dating. Just like inequalities in the economy, this leads to radicalization. Here's some articles that have been posted here on HN, they offered far more nuance than the typical media post:
> I don't know what the solutions is. Writing these people off as terrorists just doesn't seem right to me.
The minute a group starts pulling out the guns and shooting people, they are no longer just "sad people", they are now "sad people with guns and violent tendencies".
Look, Jesus said to love your neighbor and I get that. Unlike a lot of people, I don't wish death to ISIS or Al-Qaeda or Palestine or Hamas. I understand their perspective: they see America as a world power stomping on their culture and demonizing them. I don't wish death on any group of people.
That doesn't change the fact that they've declared themselves to be enemies and are actively trying to kill us. So an appropriate response is necessary. It also should be noted that individuals with violent tendencies tend to kill people who are closest to them. (Shootings, even "Mass Shootings", are rarely random. They're often at parties, or workplaces that are socially-connected to the individual). Trying to socialize with a violent person actively puts you in their crosshairs. So its necessary to understand the scope of the violent threat.
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Incels have similarly taken the step towards violent domestic terrorism. They've begun to organize and recognize each other as martyrs... those who "die" for the cause. It is what it is. At some point, you need to start actively defending yourself against a growing threat.
I don't know when that point is: a few more mass shootings perhaps? They've already accumulated a number of mass shootings under their banner: so its only a question of how many before our collective consciousness is tipped off. But its worth talking about at this point, but never appropriate to panic about it.
I don't think Incels as big of an overall threat as say... ISIS / Al-Qaeda. But unlike ISIS / Al-Qaeda (who operate in the Middle East), Incels do primarily operate inside the USA. So they're less dangerous, but they're closer.
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On the timescale of my memories, Al-Qaeda existed before I was born (as well as other various extremist groups of the Muslim world: Wahhabisim, Hamas, etc. etc.). On the other hand, Incels have gone from literally zero (non-existant) into... well... existing. That's a growing threat. Its not as big as others yet but anything that's growing, dangerous, and domestic deserves eyes.
We also live in a country where gun background checks are easily avoided. Violent philosophies quickly turn into actual violence, because there's an easy and legal means to purchase weapons. If our laws demand that we can't stop distribution of weapons, it is only natural to take a step back and start analyzing violent groups from their philosophy. We don't really have other means of control.
You captured the nuance nicely. Parent comment about toxicity is getting downvoted into oblivion, but repackaging toxicity as: "dude, it's just a joke" is one of the mechanisms by which toxcicity spreads (see: the 2013-to present redpill/alt-right/whitenationalist culture). Like the "trad-wife / Aryan" quad-panel meme, which also has been "normalized" but started off as a horribly racist meme, so the bad guys sort of "won" with it.
That said, I see where the github creator is going and can have a chuckle at this and still cringe, but he probably had no idea of how this would be received by non bro-grammers. Everyone needs to learn that ignorance is no excuse at some point in their lives. And that's a hard lesson to learn when you are from the apex intersections.
<sarcasm>
Well, I don’t know about you, but I personally try to give all my workplace memes creepy incel sexual overtones. I kind of have a thing for the head of HR . . .
</sarcasm>
Is it really toxic? It's pretty funny and not exactly offensive imo. Besides, you could just maintain a fork that was the same exact thing with a different name and a different readme.
Though really, memes on a readme shouldn't affect technical decision making.
Calling people "virgins" for not using your library is toxic, and I wouldn't send this page to a junior, male of female. I dunno where you work, but this wouldn't fly with my employer (and yes, that impacts my technical decision making). And yeah -- you can fork it, and then maintain that fork. No thanks.
The words "virgin" and "chad" have changed meaning within the scope of the meme, must like how the F word changed meaning for the south park episode.
But on the other hand: its silly to expect everyone else (especially people who aren't into meme culture) to understand the joke. Knowing how the words are interpreted outside of the meme is also important.
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With that being said: I don't think anyone meming "Virgin or Chad" actually wants their code to be used professionally. Its a joke: and the code itself is likely a joke. I'm interested in reading over the .h to see how it works later, but I imagine that its probably got a bunch of weird stuff going on.
I've been stigmatized more for having slanty eyes than being a virgin. I dunno, the whole virgin thing seems to be largely a joke.
Even Rimuru Tempest gets superpowers (Great Sage) because he died on Earth as a 37 year old virgin. Or if anime references don't work... 40 year old virgin movies or whatever.
It seems like one of the few thing you can poke fun at without people actually getting super serious about.
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As I said elsewhere: I know there's a growing group of incels who are taking this virgin stuff very seriously. Literal violent acts because they feel like they feel like the chads are taking all of the women or whatever.
But there's a larger group of people who are just innocently joking around with this meme.
It's about context. Maybe if the incels become more popular, I'll hush up about these virgin jokes. But it hasn't really crossed my threshold quite yet.
>Or if anime references don't work... 40 year old virgin movies or whatever.
Are you saying that movie doesn't stigmatize male virginity? From its wikipedia page:
>The film was criticized by Harry Forbes of Catholic News Service for promoting "the false premise that there's something intrinsically wrong with an unmarried man being sexually inexperienced,"[41] and by political columnist Cal Thomas for being an example of societal decline in regards to "self-control or what was once known as purity."[42]
If I remember the film correctly, his friends were a bunch of jackasses (in a comedic fashion), while the 40-year-old virgin was actually the nicest guy... Who best deserves the girl at the end. The female lead was also a virgin, and actually valued that in the main character.
I mean, I guess it still falls on the trope of "the hero gets the girl" at the end, if that's what your problem is? A lot of what his friends do get in the way of him actually having a successful romantic experience with the female lead.
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I dunno, reading those reviews kinda reminds me of one review I read for Frozen: where they were critical about "Love is an Open Door" and failing to understand the satire. Sometimes there are messages behind the message...
> (if you are around people who think that way i recommend finding better people)
You recognize this recommendation as cancel culture, right? Because you're treating discussion of toxicity as toxic, and trying to avoid it by dissociating from people who dislike toxicity
I recommended finding people that don't think in terms of "this is toxic, and that is toxic"
They throw the word around like it's a catch all to excuse their bad behavior when they should realize the only "toxic" person here is them
Also it's not cancel culture; picking better friends is not cancelling someone. I'm not recommending trying to get them fired or saying awful things about them. Just find better friends who don't see the world in such a narrow view that they can only claim things they don't like as "toxic".
Parody communities have a habit of being taken over by people that aren't being ironic and honestly believe the exaggerated views. Poe's law in action. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
The opposite happens too - terms used seriously by one community are adopted by others to parody them. Eg, “woke” started as a term used seriously by the left, and was later adopted by the right as a way to make fun of the left.
There is "free as in free beer", "free as in free speech", and then there is "free as in GPLv3". Because, you see, being prohibited from doing quite a number of things with a piece of software is the ultimate freedom™ (not actually freedom, just a 7-letter combination that looks like the word "freedom" but has its own specific meaning, further information available upon request).
It's possible to make something and not expect anything in return. I couldn't care less if my quick JS library makes money to anyone. And more power to you if you can make a living by building a whole company based upon my left-pad code.
you mean soydevs from "fagman" like corpos would not able to use it right? I do not see what problems GPL Gigachads may be experiencing with chadstr.h
Stop using cuck licenses and contribute back to them
As a serious response, if you're looking for a good string library, look up RapidString. I've used it to great effect for a few years now. The original owner disappeared so there are only a number of surviving forks, but the code is clear, fast and Just Works.
C will be here a long time, but it shouldn't be. There's still zero reason to write new code in C. None. If you need to integrate with a legacy codebase, fine. But for new code? C++ is better in every possible way.
While I agree Rust might be the future, there are a ton of platforms where C is still the only real option. Like for example many microcontrollers. Or legacy computer systems.
But I do give you that the number of use cases where C is required are decreasing rapidly.
So it'd be immature to suggest that we shouldn't write new code in BASIC or COBOL? Give me a break. Some language wars are the mark of immaturity, sure. Others are the result of a mature career of dealing with shitty legacy code in a language practically guaranteed to produce it.
> So it'd be immature to suggest that we shouldn't write new code in BASIC or COBOL?
Its immature to suggest rewriting backend of some bank written in COBOL half a century ago, because Go lang is so much better. That would be a suicide.
No sane person will propose to use COBOL for brand new project.
Again my point is that bashing - modern, in use - languages is stupid thing to do. Current languages are used for a reason. Speed, convenience, libs, support etc.
Going back to C++ vs C. Have a look at Linux kernel written in C++.
Languages are tools, and each tool has its purpose and should be chosen for a purpose.
And no sane person will propose using C for a new project. It's beyond irresponsible to use a language that's led to endless bugs and security flaws over time. Sure, if you're maintaining a C project, use C. But don't use it in new stuff. It's that bad. It really is. Sorry.
There's no reason to use C: it's not faster, or more convenient, or more amenable to library use than C++. C++ has every single advantage of C and then some. That's just a reality.
> But don't use it in new stuff. It's that bad. It really is. Sorry.
Anyone is entitled to live in a their delusions, no need to apologize.
Tell me how are you going to write a driver for you new device your company is shipping? Or write firmware for it?
C is a container ship that carries the world's trade on its back, and you come here trying to sell rockets as new means of transportation. We will see if truck are still here in 30 years :) vs some fad language that is going to be forgotten in next few years.
Uh, exactly the same kind of static analysis that applies to C applies just as well to C++. C++ doesn't have a magically different execution model. What do you think std::string is except a few wrapper functions that boil down to the same operations you can do in C?
> C++ verifiers have to understand template types, overloads, etc.
If they operate at some compiler IR level (e.g. LLVM bitcode), the difference between C and C++ verification is nothing. C++ is purely a front-end thing. Why should formal verifiers operate at the AST level?
Yes, as I mentioned it's fine if you're developing the C implementation. You can then choose what to do if any of them get used by a new revision of the C standard, your libc, or your compiler, since you'd be packaging your compiler, libc, and picking what C standard version you support.
It's also trivial to change them, if you get a conflict, since it's a header-only library.
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[ 4.0 ms ] story [ 198 ms ] threadHaha, fantastic.
Amazing.
But think about the general implications: the general idea of 'Virgin vs Chad' is that 'Chad' gets more sex than the Virgin. Its basically incel logic in some regards, or glorifying toxic masculinity to an extent. Its innate to the meme.
So it is what it is. Like many things on the internet, its kind of a mean message if you stop and think about it. On the other hand, I know its "just a joke" (but I'm aware that some "joke" evolve over the months and/or years into... well... not jokes. Serious things).
Context for everything. Maybe the incel community will suddenly adopt the meme and use it "seriously", which would make it unfun. (I don't follow many incel groups, so I wouldn't know if they picked up on this meme yet). Kinda like how "Red Pill" was fine when it was just a Matrix reference, but suddenly turned into right-wing virtue signaling... the underlying context and/or culture behind the meme is often more important than the actual message.
But it's also not just a joke. It's really sad and depressing because incels are real and there are real people who think and perceive reality through those fucked up lenses.
When i see this, i think it's reasonably funny, i understand it might upset some people, but i also think, what's wrong with virgins? I know some people might be of the view that associating the so called "less desirable" traits with virgins is "unfair", but i just see it as, funny and dumb that people would actually believe that has any validity, because it presupposes some idea that virgins are bad. So what's wrong with being a virgin? I hold all these competing interpretations in my head at once but i don't let the ones i dislike win out, i just keep my own. I think the ideological purity requirement where you demand other people drop interpretations that you dislike, is toxic because you think you can control other people's thoughts, saying other people are "wrong" because of an idea in your own head, and failing to grok the key personal responsibility boundary that other people are not responsible for your feelings. If you arrive at a set of interpretations that you find personally upsetting, change the set, because you're giving validity to that interpretation that you pretended to disagree with, because if you had your own interpretation that disagreed with that you wouldn't be so troubled by these other ones you dislike. I agree that this is s hard thing to do sometimes, but precisely I think to the degree to which you are internally validating the interpretation you find repellant. It's actually very helpful to shift your own perspective, in these cases.
Don't confuse this with other cases where it's more clear cut and people are doing something bad. I'm not saying "interpret" away bad intent, or bad actions, just... In cases where you can see the competing interpretations, (maybe indicated by the fact that there's a lot of other people who are not troubled by this and think that it's okay, which is perhaps a defining characteristic of things where you shouldn't be interpreting away the bad intent or bad actions are where the majority the vast majority of people not just people in your echo chamber but the vast majority of people find these thing repellent and bad and only a small, generally regarded as twisted, minority think it's acceptable), but when you have a case like this where there are competing interpretations, and you find yourself arriving at interpretations which you dislike then don't require everyone else to change and drop their interpretations, or not say the things they think, rather just own your own reactions and change your own dominant interpretation in your head. Say you don't like this because you make it mean people are saying virgins are weak and awful, and you're a virgin, so you feel people are attacking you. But say you also feel deep down that there's nothing wrong with being a virgin. So just hold to your own interpretation and make that dominant. So you think it's funny because all these people are counting on the implicit association that virgins are not good but you think what's wrong with being a virgin so you think it's funny that all these people have that belief. That they have that belief doesn't affect your belief and trust in yourself. But if deep down you really hate yourself then you'll have to change that belief but if you do hate yourself then that's not something you can blame other peo...
However in the context of the GP, they're 100% correct in the sense that this isn't appropriate for the workplace. So it's kind of a shame that it's actually technically very good/useful.
The author is free to do whatever they want. I'm not asking them to change, but it's definitely a shame to tie this otherwise good code to this meme.
Maybe that meaning wasn't in the mind of the creator at all. Or maybe the people who you believe think a certain way actually feel another way about it. Whatever the "meme trope" or specific "meme instance" creator intended it to mean (if anything), that doesn't mean that's the "only" meaning a thing can have.
It might mean one thing to some person or group and something to you. To me it's funny that they think associating negative traits with "virgin" is a valid comparison. To me, it's obviously not but so laughable that while the jokes the people are making about coding, to me, are funny, the ways they frame it, is funny for being so immature.. But it's humour, I don't want to "explain" it. Maybe they use this meme with irony, appropriate the "chad-virgin" dichotomy, in a satirical way, as they think it's false.
Seriously, who cares? Who cares what the creator made it mean, in the basic sense. Because you have the power to interpret it your way. Why limit your joy by thinking, someone somewhere might see this in a way they dislike, therefore I cannot enjoy it. I know it's not easy, because you can be aware of how other people might take it, but that doesn't mean you have to align with that. Otherwise the world is this network where everyone's watching everyone else for "heretical behavior or thought" and trying to bizarrely punish that, just because they can't make a good boundary between their thoughts and feelings, and everyone else's. Everyone can make it mean what they want. It's a subtle point, easy to nod at but hard to actually grok what that means. You're judging this work, and this meme based on what you're making it mean, based on how you're choosing to interpret what you believe some other group of people, who you believe it's connected to, makes it mean. You're hostage to what you think are the beliefs of some other group. I don't think you're crazy, but I think that idea is crazy, because you're free to make it mean what you want. It's pretty common nowadays tho I think.
Again saying it's not appropriate to the workplace is a whole other set of relative value judgments and interpretations. Because the word "virgin" is included and maybe someone can connect this meme to some group they're afraid of or they judge as bad, therefore a workplace is unable to handle that? I think that says something about the toxic/unworkable fragility of workplaces. We should be robust enough to be able to consider these cultural artefacts without creating danger or toxicity. If we cannot consider something, we're unable to really reflect on that, and I believe the workplace culture can be at risk of emanating those things it will not allow itself to really engage with or see. To be it's an obvious but also subtle point. We won't allow ourselves to look at a sort of implicit bias that might be present somehow in one interpretation of a meme? Then we also won't see it in the workplace. And "everything's fine" when really a workplace culture is toxic. Introspection and criticism can be shielded behind the arbitrary "area denial" system of "inappropriate for workplace". There's clearly lines (i.e, people just casually sharing porn in a non-porn-industry workplace, totally uncool, right? because that's some private intimate activity related thing that has nothing to do with sort of workplace relationships)...but sharing memes and humour? That's not ok? I've noticed European commenters say before that American workplaces are too afraid of themselves. I don't know if you're view c...
You've pretty clearly stated how you feel in no uncertain terms. I understand that and I accept that. I have clearly stated how I feel. My thoughts/feelings are my own, and I don't need to radically change the way I think or view the world because I'm being held under some yoke of some imposed belief or way of thinking. We disagree. That's fine. It's obviously not going to change but please don't proceed with this idea that I just don't "get it".
The work is intrinsically tied to the meme. That is how I feel about the meme. Authorial intent, whatever it may be, isn't particularly relevant in criticism beyond the subjective interpretation of whether they achieved it or not. I don't know and neither do you as neither of are the author and I don't see them spelling it out. I'm sure they mean it as a light-hearted joke, but I still disagree with the idea that it is funny.
I'm not here to change (and am certainly not able to change) what does or doesn't fly in the offices of Corporate America. Culture vary (as do opinions as previously stated), but even if you think this is funny I wouldn't recommend you use it or share it around in the office for due to the potential consequences of the implications and language it contains. Whether that is good or bad morally or for our society or culture is also a matter of opinion and beside the point.
Personally I find a lot of humor in other things that I don't think are appropriate for the workplace or a professional setting. I don't feel restrained under some yoke of society, there is just a time and place for certain things. People very naturally change mannerisms and ways of speaking to tailor them to whoever is on the receiving end. There is a pretty obvious and the reason is pretty simple.
I guess if you really want to push it all the way out sure, I'm crushed under the yoke of caring about other people and having empathy. I guess I'm okay with that. But I'm not a hostage to what I think someone else beliefs are. I'm a hostage to my own, which include generally trying not to be an asshole.
Make of that what you will, but I am my own person. I'm not missing some greater truth or liberated way of thinking. You're quite literally also evaluating things based on a relative set of value judgements and interpretations the same way I am, they're just the ones you have and ours are different.
As previously stated, I'm not asking/imploring/demanding the author to change anything. I'm just sharing how I feel about it.
Am I hearing you right?
Yeah, I agree with you about most of that (not that agreement is important, disagreement is to be expected, everyone's different). The way your first two responses came across to me (my interpretation ;) ;p)) was that "this is how it is. No questions." I didn't detect that qualifying and empathetic, "This is how I feel, but I get and respect other's may feel differently about that." If you had that expressed in there, I missed that and if so I'm sorry that I did! :p ;) xx
While you did did mention your personal reaction to the joke itself, you seemed to frame as objective your beliefs about the larger "memetic context", to me at least.
You raise an interesting point that I was thinking about as I wrote but struggling to express in my responses. What's the connection between "being an inconsiderate asshole", "empathy" and "having proper boundaries / personal responsibility for your own thoughts and feelings" ? I'm glad you raised it. I'll try to think some more about it and write some clarity. I've been thinking about this for a while, but haven't really tried to write something clear about it. This could be a good chance, have a great day! :P ;) xx
edit: I think some clarity about the above is, you can have empathy for how other people think and feel, but that doesn't make what they think and feel neither "objectively good" nor "good for you". One extreme example: you have empathy for the rapist who is raping you, you feel their loneliness, fear of weakness and desire for love and validation, but that doesn't mean you need to "not be an asshole" and "consider their feelings" in terms of "act in line with their feelings." You can consider someone's thoughts and feelings and have empathy for that but that needn't constrain your behavior at all.
It's interesting to me that you seem to conflate the two, vis: "I guess if you really want to push it all the way out sure, I'm crushed under the yoke of caring about other people and having empathy. I guess I'm okay with that. But I'm not a hostage to what I think someone else beliefs are. I'm a hostage to my own, which include generally trying not to be an asshole."
The moral compass that constrains behavior is not set by what other people decide their feelings and thoughts are. Otherwise everyone's moral compasses are in the Bermuda triangle, never knowing which was is up. You need something more than subjective feelings and personal thoughts, as important as those things are to consider, to set morality for the bounds of behavior.
I think caring about other people, and empathy does not imply, acting in line with how other people think and feel. But it seems from your responses, that you do think that: We shouldn't enjoy this meme, or this code, or share it at work, because people might interpret it in a way where they have "negative" thoughts and emotions about it. That's basically how what you're saying seems like to me.
Perhaps we simply disagree on this point, and that's cool. What I see you saying is (ignoring further nuance I'm sure you use in practice), "Before taking any action, I must assess the thoughts and feelings of those around me, an...
I don't want to understate them as a threat, but I don't want to overstate them as a threat either. Nonetheless, they are becoming more-and-more violent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel#Mass_murders_and_violenc...
Its definitely one of those things we need to keep an eye on. If they get more violent and become a larger movement, it could be dangerous.
The grievances they air easily turn into mass shooting events. They're beginning to recognize each other as martyrs (ex: Nikolas Cruz memorialized Elliot Rodger). For some reason, they're able to find each other online and push each other into extremism and even violent acts.
Don't let the threat of incels keep you up at night
Roughly on the same scale as other domestic terrorists: eco-terrorists, abortion bombers, and other mass shooters.
And it should be noted that unlike eco-terrorists or abortion bombers, an extreme violent incel wants to kill people as part of their grievances... and not just cause damage.
You don't have any evidence at all for that, do you? You have no idea what the real number is.
> lightning strikes,
About 20 people each year in the US die by lightening strike. That's not many.
The fact is there's massive inequality in dating. Just like inequalities in the economy, this leads to radicalization. Here's some articles that have been posted here on HN, they offered far more nuance than the typical media post:
https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/06/comparing-income-sex-...
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-roman...
I don't know what the solution is but writing these people off as terrorists just doesn't seem right to me.
The minute a group starts pulling out the guns and shooting people, they are no longer just "sad people", they are now "sad people with guns and violent tendencies".
Look, Jesus said to love your neighbor and I get that. Unlike a lot of people, I don't wish death to ISIS or Al-Qaeda or Palestine or Hamas. I understand their perspective: they see America as a world power stomping on their culture and demonizing them. I don't wish death on any group of people.
That doesn't change the fact that they've declared themselves to be enemies and are actively trying to kill us. So an appropriate response is necessary. It also should be noted that individuals with violent tendencies tend to kill people who are closest to them. (Shootings, even "Mass Shootings", are rarely random. They're often at parties, or workplaces that are socially-connected to the individual). Trying to socialize with a violent person actively puts you in their crosshairs. So its necessary to understand the scope of the violent threat.
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Incels have similarly taken the step towards violent domestic terrorism. They've begun to organize and recognize each other as martyrs... those who "die" for the cause. It is what it is. At some point, you need to start actively defending yourself against a growing threat.
I don't know when that point is: a few more mass shootings perhaps? They've already accumulated a number of mass shootings under their banner: so its only a question of how many before our collective consciousness is tipped off. But its worth talking about at this point, but never appropriate to panic about it.
I don't think Incels as big of an overall threat as say... ISIS / Al-Qaeda. But unlike ISIS / Al-Qaeda (who operate in the Middle East), Incels do primarily operate inside the USA. So they're less dangerous, but they're closer.
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On the timescale of my memories, Al-Qaeda existed before I was born (as well as other various extremist groups of the Muslim world: Wahhabisim, Hamas, etc. etc.). On the other hand, Incels have gone from literally zero (non-existant) into... well... existing. That's a growing threat. Its not as big as others yet but anything that's growing, dangerous, and domestic deserves eyes.
We also live in a country where gun background checks are easily avoided. Violent philosophies quickly turn into actual violence, because there's an easy and legal means to purchase weapons. If our laws demand that we can't stop distribution of weapons, it is only natural to take a step back and start analyzing violent groups from their philosophy. We don't really have other means of control.
That said, I see where the github creator is going and can have a chuckle at this and still cringe, but he probably had no idea of how this would be received by non bro-grammers. Everyone needs to learn that ignorance is no excuse at some point in their lives. And that's a hard lesson to learn when you are from the apex intersections.
Though really, memes on a readme shouldn't affect technical decision making.
Its... not actually mean in the context of the meme. But... yeah, meme culture is weird. Its kind of comparable to South Park's "F Word" episode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_F_Word_(South_Park)).
The words "virgin" and "chad" have changed meaning within the scope of the meme, must like how the F word changed meaning for the south park episode.
But on the other hand: its silly to expect everyone else (especially people who aren't into meme culture) to understand the joke. Knowing how the words are interpreted outside of the meme is also important.
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With that being said: I don't think anyone meming "Virgin or Chad" actually wants their code to be used professionally. Its a joke: and the code itself is likely a joke. I'm interested in reading over the .h to see how it works later, but I imagine that its probably got a bunch of weird stuff going on.
Even Rimuru Tempest gets superpowers (Great Sage) because he died on Earth as a 37 year old virgin. Or if anime references don't work... 40 year old virgin movies or whatever.
It seems like one of the few thing you can poke fun at without people actually getting super serious about.
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As I said elsewhere: I know there's a growing group of incels who are taking this virgin stuff very seriously. Literal violent acts because they feel like they feel like the chads are taking all of the women or whatever.
But there's a larger group of people who are just innocently joking around with this meme.
It's about context. Maybe if the incels become more popular, I'll hush up about these virgin jokes. But it hasn't really crossed my threshold quite yet.
Are you saying that movie doesn't stigmatize male virginity? From its wikipedia page:
>The film was criticized by Harry Forbes of Catholic News Service for promoting "the false premise that there's something intrinsically wrong with an unmarried man being sexually inexperienced,"[41] and by political columnist Cal Thomas for being an example of societal decline in regards to "self-control or what was once known as purity."[42]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_40-Year-Old_Virgin
I mean, I guess it still falls on the trope of "the hero gets the girl" at the end, if that's what your problem is? A lot of what his friends do get in the way of him actually having a successful romantic experience with the female lead.
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I dunno, reading those reviews kinda reminds me of one review I read for Frozen: where they were critical about "Love is an Open Door" and failing to understand the satire. Sometimes there are messages behind the message...
Maybe that's the point. Now the author's work only benefits the kind of people who won't be offended.
Just because noxious gasses are released into the atmosphere doesn't mean you stop breathing on your own.
ignore "toxicity" (if you are around people who think that way i recommend finding better people) embrace clean libraries
You recognize this recommendation as cancel culture, right? Because you're treating discussion of toxicity as toxic, and trying to avoid it by dissociating from people who dislike toxicity
They throw the word around like it's a catch all to excuse their bad behavior when they should realize the only "toxic" person here is them
Also it's not cancel culture; picking better friends is not cancelling someone. I'm not recommending trying to get them fired or saying awful things about them. Just find better friends who don't see the world in such a narrow view that they can only claim things they don't like as "toxic".
/r/GamersRiseUp went that way: https://old.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/fefycf/whats_...
-chad
> just calls str()
> refuses to elaborate further
> leaves
I don't think many people are going to use it because of that.
MIT is for the "I have better things to do with my life than caring about what you do with my code" chad, (L)GPL is for the apprehensive virgin.
Charity and generosity is chad-like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL
http://www.wtfpl.net/
Absolute chadman.
https://github.com/alcover/stricks
Sorry for the plug but I'm depressed by its lack of success..
C will be here for new code for a long time, whether you/we like it or not
But I do give you that the number of use cases where C is required are decreasing rapidly.
How about "I like it"? (I used to program in C++ 20 years ago..but not in many years. I just prefer C.)
Its not bloated with feature creep like C++ is. Some modern C++ code looks like an Egyptian hieroglyphics.
So please don't write code in C++ /s
Bitching about lang A > lang B is sign of immaturity. Every language had/has a use and arguing about what is better doesnt get anyone anywhere.
Its immature to suggest rewriting backend of some bank written in COBOL half a century ago, because Go lang is so much better. That would be a suicide.
No sane person will propose to use COBOL for brand new project.
Again my point is that bashing - modern, in use - languages is stupid thing to do. Current languages are used for a reason. Speed, convenience, libs, support etc.
Going back to C++ vs C. Have a look at Linux kernel written in C++.
Languages are tools, and each tool has its purpose and should be chosen for a purpose.
There's no reason to use C: it's not faster, or more convenient, or more amenable to library use than C++. C++ has every single advantage of C and then some. That's just a reality.
And yes, I can and will bash C.
Anyone is entitled to live in a their delusions, no need to apologize.
Tell me how are you going to write a driver for you new device your company is shipping? Or write firmware for it?
C is a container ship that carries the world's trade on its back, and you come here trying to sell rockets as new means of transportation. We will see if truck are still here in 30 years :) vs some fad language that is going to be forgotten in next few years.
But sure, keep spewing your incorrect assertions.
Uh, exactly the same kind of static analysis that applies to C applies just as well to C++. C++ doesn't have a magically different execution model. What do you think std::string is except a few wrapper functions that boil down to the same operations you can do in C?
I'm sure we'll get there one day. Frama-C is inching toward it at molasses speeds.
But right now, C is undeniably easier to verify than C++.
If they operate at some compiler IR level (e.g. LLVM bitcode), the difference between C and C++ verification is nothing. C++ is purely a front-end thing. Why should formal verifiers operate at the AST level?
Drop something great onto humanity, leave to do your own thing, away from the haters and whiners.
That's a chad move right there.
So the only safe place to use this is if you're developing a libc and/or a C compiler, or an OS including those.
[0] https://github.com/skullchap/chadstr/issues/4
It's also trivial to change them, if you get a conflict, since it's a header-only library.
https://github.com/skullchap/chadstr/pull/5