>We want our community to be inclusive, and that obviously includes the language being used every day (https://plugins.jetbrains.com/slack/slackccugl…). If you don't want to get suggestions from the bot, disable it for yourself.
I don't think the "gottem" is about trying to catch people using words that could be offensive. I think seeking out transgressions comes across as more aggressive than the people who write such bots intend.
It is a good thing for people to want to ensure that newcomers don't feel excluded. But, I think pushing things such as bots like this with a mentality of "how could anyone be against this?".. IMO doesn't indicate a good understanding of a variety of human experiences.
So do they message everyone who posts in English? It is used and understood by a minority of people in the world. Many understand but are not fully comfortable with it, so you are actively discouraging such people from participating. So unless they point everyone who posts in English, this is purely a virtue signaling exercise.
I've hit this twice, and each time it's actually turned me off from interacting with a community completely, namely the Elm slack and the NixOS IRC. It's not out of spite mind you, but its just a weird first impression and creates this feel of egg-shells, and really blunted my drive of wanting to participate further. The "political" context wasn't a factor for me, it was more of just the exchange of `attempted-friendly-statement` with a response of `be-friendly-but-not-like-that`
Should we be worried about the future of JetBrains' products? I love their IDEs, especially PyCharm and CLion, but when the "woke" comes in, the competency seems to go out the door next, although it takes a few extra years. What would be the reason for doing this? Especially by the Russian team out of Prague?
Can you give examples of competency going out the door?
I remember a lot of anger and consternation at the Node.js "The power of a pronoun" post, for instance, but Node.js seems to have done just fine in the years since then. (There are plenty of technical criticisms of Node, of course, but it doesn't seem that Node lost competency since that post.)
I remember a lot of anger and consternation at Codes of Conduct, but they seem to be pretty much commonplace now, and not an indicator of low technical quality.
I remember a lot of anger and consternation when GitHub got rid of their meritocracy rug, but they seem to be executing and scaling just fine.
So I can't really think of a concrete reason to worry.
Were I live referring to a group of people as "guys" is non-gender specific, and has been for ages.
What I see here seems like Americans(Californians?) trying to force their cultural preferences on the rest of the world. And they think they're doing good?
I work in south east Asia and having to explain my dev team why master had some connotations in the us about some race things years ago was an ordeal. They couldn't care less.
US problems are just US.
I was also slightly perplexed by the recent trouble "master". I'd not have thought of it in the context of slavery at all - the term that I'd understand would be a "slave owner".
For me, it's a somewhat archaic term for "teacher", especially for something like fencing (https://sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Hope/ScotsFencingMaster/) or dancing (https://playforddances.com/). At my school, if you had forgotten to bring your prep (homework) to a lesson then a trip to the masters' common room at break time to hand it in would be necessary (it was a very traditional school, and this was a few decades ago).
There's been controversy about the word in other communities with which I've been involved over the past couple of decades, though again not related to slavery. In this case it's considered rude and or arrogant to refer to yourself as a "master" if teaching certain skills, as the word has connotations of considerable expertise and is not so widely known any more as meaning that one teaches. So, a "fencing master" would be interpreted not as a teacher but as one of the world's greatest sword fighters.
Of course there's a majority of white men who don't see a problem with the status quo because they never feel the negative effects of it.
I see two categories of detractors, when it comes to these cultural shifts. One is more sinister than the other. One category doesn't like the shift because they feel called out and they feel somehow attacked rather than taking the information and making a positive change. The other category actively hinders minority participation because they afraid they can't compete in a labor market that includes skilled minorities ( or whatever unsavory reason for making their industry unwelcoming )
I know this comment is likely to fade based on the opinions I see propped up in this thread. Honestly, this thread is a disappointing place to be.
I guess the "political activists" want to make Jetbrains a welcoming place for non-men or POC. And that's really cool. I'd say if a person can't behave themselves in that space (which really isn't hard at all), good riddance to them.
> Speak up about what? Of course there's a majority of white men who don't see a problem ...
> I guess the "political activists" want to make Jetbrains a welcoming place for non-men or POC. And that's really cool. I'd say if a person can't behave themselves in that space (which really isn't hard at all), good riddance to them.
10 years from now you're going to look back at the zealotry and wonder why you supported it. (That's assuming we still have free speech and diversity of opinions in 10 years from now, fingers crossed.)
> What zealotry are we talking about? JetBrains's bots? I'd hardly call a bot making a polite non-binding suggestion "zealotry"
I don't think anybody will remember this JetBrains bot 10 years from now. The bot itself is just a part of a larger movement, which is starting to resemble a religion [1]. This religion has its word police, thought police, and inquisitions that cancel people. It appears to me that you support this zealotry, because you use phrases like "good riddance" to describe your attitude towards people who are cast out by this movement.
I don't get it how a lot of people are getting so stupid.
It is like the world society reached a top a few years ago, and now we are on the path to regression, dumber and dumber. Maybe such an effect can explain the disparation of lot of ancient civilizations (Incas, ...)
I don't think it's stupidity, it seems more like an increase in mental health deterioration.
I remember this episode of Freaks and Geeks (old show) where one of the main character's girlfriend comes out as an hermaphrodite. Someone goes up to them later and says "hey guys". The main character punched the guy in the face. This was a serious scene and I just bursted out laughing at the absurdity of the whole thing.
I refer to groups of girls as "hey guys". What am I supposed to say "hey ladies"? That's become such an archane Austin Powers mannerism.
I feel like these people see "guys" in a jockish sense like "one of the guys". To me and I suspect the majority of people it's still gender neutral.
32 comments
[ 4.2 ms ] story [ 19.0 ms ] threadAm I reading too much into the last sentence.
I don't think the "gottem" is about trying to catch people using words that could be offensive. I think seeking out transgressions comes across as more aggressive than the people who write such bots intend.
It is a good thing for people to want to ensure that newcomers don't feel excluded. But, I think pushing things such as bots like this with a mentality of "how could anyone be against this?".. IMO doesn't indicate a good understanding of a variety of human experiences.
I remember a lot of anger and consternation at the Node.js "The power of a pronoun" post, for instance, but Node.js seems to have done just fine in the years since then. (There are plenty of technical criticisms of Node, of course, but it doesn't seem that Node lost competency since that post.)
I remember a lot of anger and consternation at Codes of Conduct, but they seem to be pretty much commonplace now, and not an indicator of low technical quality.
I remember a lot of anger and consternation when GitHub got rid of their meritocracy rug, but they seem to be executing and scaling just fine.
So I can't really think of a concrete reason to worry.
This bot is ridiculous, guys.
Now, asking with all curiosity: do people actually feel excluded over this sort of language? If so, what’s your story?
What I see here seems like Americans(Californians?) trying to force their cultural preferences on the rest of the world. And they think they're doing good?
They don't own the English language.
For me, it's a somewhat archaic term for "teacher", especially for something like fencing (https://sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Hope/ScotsFencingMaster/) or dancing (https://playforddances.com/). At my school, if you had forgotten to bring your prep (homework) to a lesson then a trip to the masters' common room at break time to hand it in would be necessary (it was a very traditional school, and this was a few decades ago).
There's been controversy about the word in other communities with which I've been involved over the past couple of decades, though again not related to slavery. In this case it's considered rude and or arrogant to refer to yourself as a "master" if teaching certain skills, as the word has connotations of considerable expertise and is not so widely known any more as meaning that one teaches. So, a "fencing master" would be interpreted not as a teacher but as one of the world's greatest sword fighters.
You know, folks, it's okay to think about doing things differently, as a culture. I mean, we have no problem switching web stacks every year or so.
Of course there's a majority of white men who don't see a problem with the status quo because they never feel the negative effects of it.
I see two categories of detractors, when it comes to these cultural shifts. One is more sinister than the other. One category doesn't like the shift because they feel called out and they feel somehow attacked rather than taking the information and making a positive change. The other category actively hinders minority participation because they afraid they can't compete in a labor market that includes skilled minorities ( or whatever unsavory reason for making their industry unwelcoming )
I know this comment is likely to fade based on the opinions I see propped up in this thread. Honestly, this thread is a disappointing place to be.
I guess the "political activists" want to make Jetbrains a welcoming place for non-men or POC. And that's really cool. I'd say if a person can't behave themselves in that space (which really isn't hard at all), good riddance to them.
> I guess the "political activists" want to make Jetbrains a welcoming place for non-men or POC. And that's really cool. I'd say if a person can't behave themselves in that space (which really isn't hard at all), good riddance to them.
10 years from now you're going to look back at the zealotry and wonder why you supported it. (That's assuming we still have free speech and diversity of opinions in 10 years from now, fingers crossed.)
I'm told Tinder is starting to do a similar thing with DMs.
I'm either case, you can decide to proceed with your post. Or you can follow the suggestion.
I don't think anybody will remember this JetBrains bot 10 years from now. The bot itself is just a part of a larger movement, which is starting to resemble a religion [1]. This religion has its word police, thought police, and inquisitions that cancel people. It appears to me that you support this zealotry, because you use phrases like "good riddance" to describe your attitude towards people who are cast out by this movement.
[1] https://www.devever.net/~hl/newchurch
Besides, who's talking about critical race theory?
I only accept “Hey Sentients”, and only for the next 3~5 years or so.
It is like the world society reached a top a few years ago, and now we are on the path to regression, dumber and dumber. Maybe such an effect can explain the disparation of lot of ancient civilizations (Incas, ...)
I remember this episode of Freaks and Geeks (old show) where one of the main character's girlfriend comes out as an hermaphrodite. Someone goes up to them later and says "hey guys". The main character punched the guy in the face. This was a serious scene and I just bursted out laughing at the absurdity of the whole thing.
I refer to groups of girls as "hey guys". What am I supposed to say "hey ladies"? That's become such an archane Austin Powers mannerism.
I feel like these people see "guys" in a jockish sense like "one of the guys". To me and I suspect the majority of people it's still gender neutral.