They even went so far as to SCAM customers by spraying rusted out frames with polymer compound +over the corrosion_ just to push cars over the warranty period at the lowest cost possible.
It's really remarkable how vehicle reliability has improved. I can remember how hitting 100K miles was this rather remarkable thing that probably required a lot of tender loving care. Now it's mostly routine.
Mind you, if you live in a place with a lot of snow, rust still probably starts to take a toll after about 15 years or so but that's still a big improvement over cars in those places maybe lasting 5 years and 50K miles.
In Southern California, it's common to see ancient cars rolling around without overhauls, probably due to the mild weather. A little less common in the Bay Area, but I still see 20+ year old beaters and 90s Camry's almost every day.
Largely taking rust out of the equation makes a big difference. In New England, where I live, if you drive a car in the winter you're probably still looking at around 15 years max.
I had a Honda del Sol from the last year they were made and I had garaged it in the winter for the last 10 years or so. It got to the point that the dealer's mechanics would gather around it when I brought it in because basically none of the cars (which weren't that common anyway) were still on the roads if they were driven in the winter.
They really were. Honda wasn't really successful with them. I suppose they were too impractical for a Honda buyer and too Honda for a "sports car" buyer.
I enjoyed it for a long time as a second vehicle. It was also the most reliable vehicle I had owned up to that point. But as I stopped commuting and ended up traveling a lot more I just wasn't using it enough to justify the insurance/registration/etc. cost especially as it hit 170K miles or so and I didn't really rust it for long trips at that point.
Had it been a front/rear layout like the S2000 I would have thought it be a slam-dunk; as is, the front/front combo knocked it out as an MX-5 competitor.
I think you're making my point. You would have wanted a "real" sports car like the S2000--which also didn't do great. Whereas I wanted a fun but very practical two seater. (The del Sol also actually had a pretty good trunk.)
I fortuitously got rid of a 20+ year old Honda with about 170K miles shortly before the pandemic hit. It was starting to show some age and needed some maintenance--which is why I decided to get rid of it (in addition to not driving it much)--but I'm pretty sure it never had significant engine work other than a pro-active timing belt replacement.
> It's really remarkable how vehicle reliability has improved.
When I was a child, run-in periods and 2 year warranties were the norm. It was a big deal when the Japanese manufacturers started doing standard 3 year warranties.
It really is quite astonishing. And, as cars are loaded up with more and more fragile electronics it will be even more important, I think: when your side mirrors are cameras and screens, for examples, it's pretty important that you don't have a failure taking down your car's usability. Similarly, will it apply to a bug in the ABS firmware?
> Residual values are also likely to increase, and with PCP deals paying off depreciation, over time this could theoretically have a positive impact on new-car finance.
I can't imagine warranties actually have that much of an effect when it comes to depreciation.
However, given how much dealerships are pushing longer and longer loan terms as a way of achieving those magical monthly payment numbers, I assume this is a way to justify the practice even further.
Hyundai had a horrible reputation twenty years ago, well deserved. Resale values matched that reputation. They only got their reputation - and resale values - back up when they introduced their own 10 year warranty sometime (I think) around 2006 or so.
Nowadays, Hyundai has about as average a reputation as they come. And not surprisingly, resale value to match.
Hyundai backed it up by actually genuinely improving build quality.
In comparison, Chrysler has toyed with 10-year warranties by just treating it as a marketing expense. But in their efforts they never really improved in build quality and resale value showed it.
All of this paranoia would be warranted if this wasn't something that only applied after your main warranty is up
The main warranty is kept if you can show any maintenance records, even receipts for your own oil change materials is enough.
And once a year makes it obvious they want it in a dealership to make sure they're not bankrolling engine replacements for people who'd otherwise let basic maintenance intervals go indefinitely...
Toyota is the last automaker (historically) to integrate "new" tech into their vehicles. If you look at their current offering of transmissions, engines, or batteries they use really old tech.
However, this gives them a huge advantage in the reliability field as what is put into their cars is known/proven/shown to be extremely reliable.
While VW/Audi goes absolutely bezonkers and then your car spends extended periods in the workshop because the engine had a major design flaw and killed itself (1.4L TSI Twincharger which was discontinued quickly).
Inversely I'm kinda confused how Porsche (owned by VW) seems to get very good reliability scores[1]. Down to 9/26 from last years 4/26. Compared to VW's 24/26 that's quite a large delta.
I always chalked up reliability as a function of new tech introduction + focus on reliability. I figured Porsche gets decent numbers because of how relatively low-tech they are and the ridiculous prices they charge for optioning-in that tech (basic things like ACC or memory seats).
Is there something else organizationally, process or product wise that Porsche does differently than the VW group? I do know that they have a separate factory w/ seperate engineering departments (:cough VW engineers design Lamborghini's).
Porsche has a bifurcated product offering... their sports lineup is extremely reliable, but their SUVs and more mainstream products are certainly not (these also tend to have brand new equipment which doesn't filter to the 911 for years)
Porsche sports also spend a ton of time racing, at various levels, which I'd imagine back permeates into the corporate culture and increases reliability.
There's a lot of weaknesses that show up a lot quicker when you're holding an engine at redline.
I have no evidence to support this, but I'd theorize that some of it has to do with enthusiast owners (porsche) keeping up with recommended maintenance intervals, while budget owners (vw) and ignorant owners (audi) skip maintenance, causing nightmares down the line.
As a personal anecdote: my 2003 VW (1.8T GTI) had 330,000km when I sold it to a friend (it continues to run strong, but not sure the KMs). I did all the work myself and I did it on time. Biggest repair was AC Compressor, the rest was just routine maintenance and a couple $50 sensors. If a CEL came on I addressed it as soon as possible. At the same time, I had a friend with a similar year Jetta TDI which lit on fire around the 290k mark. Every time I was in her car the CEL was on, and I remember driving it home on a road trip once where you'd hold the pedal to the floor the whole way just to keep it at the highway speed limit.
Curious if this is just marketing from Porsche. Makes no sense why VW wouldn't adopt the system for similar effects. I'm not sure I buy the reasoning but I'll keep a open mind.
It's fair to say GM did copy it well in the Saturn experiment, but failed to bring it fully to the whole company. VW can't help themselves from making complicated things. Honda is onboard, but Nissan still thinks in terms of supply side and will churn out garbage to meet next quarter targets.
That being said, Tesla went back to early Ford for the full top-down flow system - and it's working for them. So while I love the TPS system and use it in my company, I'm willing to keep on learning.
I know engineers who worked for Porsche, they are doing things independently from VW. The only thing they took from VW was the cayenne chassis and it's diesel engine. They were absolutely pissed by the diesel gate as they were unaware of it and quickly removed diesel from their lineup.
They share some functions like brake SW or ACC, but they do their own engine and chassis.
Otherwise they source their stuff alone, and due to the low sales number they struggle to find willing suppliers.
> Inversely I'm kinda confused how Porsche (owned by VW) seems to get very good reliability scores[1]. Down to 9/26 from last years 4/26. Compared to VW's 24/26 that's quite a large delta.
Reliability was always a selling point for Porsches relative to their competitor. You could buy a 308 and be constantly fixing it, or a 911 and (so long as you didn't put it in a ditch) you'd have an everyday driver.
The fact that it's dropping suggests that they're feeling the effects of VW's ownership, crapping their designs up.
Dont know about that score, is that self reported?
There is plenty wrong with Porsches, with their glued cooling line recalls, where glue degrades and lets go with age, and on some models (Macan?) this means cooling fluid spewing directly at your front brake disks and tires. Then you have electronics routinely going haywire. At least you dont have to worry about IMS bearings anymore.
I don't think that this is true. The Prius was a ground-breaker in not only hybrid propulsion, but other tech aspects as well. And lets not forget the often-problematic but very advanced "robotic" transmission, which was really a microcontroller-and-servo-operated manual transmission that felt to the driver like an automatic.
Tundra used the same engine and trans for ages. Same with Tacoma. 4runner I believe still only has a 5 speed auto. They were one of the last big ones to offer android auto and carplay. They are extremely slow to changes.
The 4Runner is a pretty old design at this point. I don't need its "real" 4WD features but I do like the sight lines and other more traditional SUV design. Not in a big hurry but would be interested to see what a real redesign looks like.
The less touchscreen, computerized fussy equipment in my off-roaders, the better. The fact that Toyota leans into that by waiting until 2020 to provide lane keeping assist on their 4Runners is a benefit. Body on frame, tried and true parts are all worth the trade-offs in ride comfort and MPGs.
If I wanted those things, I would go buy a Highlander or other SUV-shaped car lacking the ability to go from pavement to AWD to 4WD to locked diffs if I get really crazy.
I like to call my off-road truck (rig in the vernacular) 'too dumb to hack'. Not that it has any meaningful security, but it is only electronic, there is not enough digital logic for there to be any attack surface worth exploiting, and even if there were some exploit, it cannot do much more than shut down the engine due to faulty timings.
The Prius/THS/HSD was definitely groundbreaking, but it's also been mostly refined versus refined since it's 1997 release, and is now stuck in everything from luxury sedans to SUVs and the LC500h. For comparison Honda has/is experimenting with i-DCD (pancake motor) i-MMD (paralell system) SH-AWD (Through the road hybrid). Arguably this experimenting has resulted in a simpler system for Honda versus the planetary gearset in the Toyota system.
Not to say that Toyota hasn't also experimented with stranger drivetrains, but they generally seem to have branched out less than Honda as an example.
That's because Toyota invented (and patented) almost perfect system for HEV from the beginning. Now series-hybrid is also getting practical for city use thanks to involved battery tech, but THS is still competitive (or better).
Yes, but Honda has always been an innovative company. Comparing Toyota to e.g. Mazda, or the smaller Nissan, or Mitsubishi, or many other Japanese brands puts Toyota generally in the middle of the pack in terms of innovation, but far ahead in quality.
Subaru is a bit of an outlier. Great quality with huge exceptions (NA head gaskets, problematic CVT), and that terrific flat four.
I would consider this a feature. Most new cars would be non starters for me based on being crammed with junk tech that presents long term maintenance issues.
The latest RAV4 model didn't have Android Auto/Apple whatever for a year after coming out. Now same with wireless version for that, all other car manufacturers have it on their cars, but not Toyota. It's not like a transmission or engine, it's software..
One really surprising thing: if you want the Camry hybrid with the best mileage, you have to get the low-end model (no rims, most options not available). It has a different type of battery than the higher trim levels, and it gets 6-7 more MPG. I was shocked that this was the case in 2020, and strangely it is still the case in 2021. None of the dealers I spoke with could explain why this happened, or why it persisted across model years.
You'd think that people would be willing to pay more for better mileage (and no, it's not due to weight differences of the premium equipment). I know my relative who was looking at hybrid Camrys would have been happy to pay more to have both the best MPG and various other features. Instead, they got the cheap model and added the blind spot monitors and called it a day.
This is a trick more than one automaker does in the interests of creating a "green" (or "eco") trim, and usually they do it by speccing tires that are all-in on prioritizing fuel efficiency, sometimes with a higher recommended tire pressure too. The tradeoff is that they sacrifice some traction, and either have to go with smaller wheels (big wheels = luxury = $$$, for some reason--Toyota does this with the Camry Hybrid, putting 16" steelies on the cheap LE trim but 18" or 19" alloys on the others) to keep the same ride quality, or just accept a stiffer ride.
It's worth noting, though, that as fuel efficiency goes up each increment in mpg is less valuable, so 6-7 mpg on a car that already gets 50 mpg is not as useful as 6-7 mpg on a car that gets 20 mpg. This is because the thing you're trying to minimize (fuel burned) is in the denominator of the measure. Countries that measure fuel economy in L/100km don't have this problem. Engineering Explained does a good job of showing how the math works out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLQmwOX6Xds
They do tire tricks, but here it was actually a different battery chemistry that made the biggest difference.
I completely agree with your assessment of the MPG difference. I tried explaining this to my relative, to no avail. The number for one vehicle was under 50 MPG and the number for the other vehicle was over 50 MPG, so it was a mental sticking point that I could not overcome.
> Toyota is the last automaker (historically) to integrate "new" tech into their vehicles.
The Prius was ground-breaking work; had Chevron not killed NiMH batteries, they would have been shipping mainstream electric RAV4s in the 90s. Toyota are very happy to innovate where they think they can deliver to a high standard.
Interesting that they also mention that you need to get your vehicle serviced at a Toyota dealership to extend your warranty up by a year each time (up to the 10yr).
I didn’t see it in the article, but I wonder if that includes getting all of the dealerships “suggested maintenance” if you want the warranty extension to apply. I’ve had lots of sketchy dealership overcharging experiences, and if you need 5 dealership service visits to get up to the full 10 years, I can see this “warranty” costing thousands of dollars in unnecessary/fake maintenance. I’m sure that there are good actors out there, at dealerships too, but it is easy to be abused.
This seems like a tactic to bring in more money, not one that Toyota is just doing for the sake of standing behind their products. Most cars can last beyond 10yr / 100k miles, so I don’t think this costs them much. But to get the dealerships to charge you $300 for a cabin air filter a few times will probably make them more than they lose.
as an owner of multiple toyota's and a member of the related forums... i can say that toyota dealers' service departments can be hit or miss, but toyota does listen to customer complaints and takes them very seriously(personal experience). additionally toyota has a lot of dealerships, so if the one closest to you is acting poorly you can go to another. they are aware of this and it tends to keep them mostly honest. plus with a large and vocal community around almost every model they make, its pretty easy to avoid the bad dealers.
my current 4runner warranty/service plan covers all scheduled maintenance, filters, lubricants, etc. for the first 100k miles. However, I do have to bring it in yearly, even if the next oil change isn't due based on milage alone.
its certainly a money play, but also keeping their vehicles in good working order helps with a lot of metrics like resell value, longevity, etc that car buyers look at. i think toyota is the largest buyer of used toyotas.
This ^^ I've found Toyota Marin to be fantastic for the Bay Area but when we were in Albuquerque for a while last year, the local dealership's service dept was much worse, doing only the basics and with a low attention to detail.
I should check out the Marin shop. Toyota SF was really good service but their prices/charges are outrageous. I ended up going to ToyShop which isn't too far from the dealership and they are solid (they work primarily on Toyotas hence ToyShop)
I'm pretty dealer agnostic, but Toyota has been cemented in my mind as the car brand I can trust the most. Have been in Toyotas my whole life (first car was an 89 Camry Wagon, rip), now I drive a 4Runner old enough to drink, and my partner is in a Highlander.
No matter how many times we look elsewhere, we always end up back in Toyotas. Hoping their EV R&D shows promise soon.
Likewise, Toyota has been a rock in my car experience.
We got a 2017 highlander and apart from the god awful infotainment system it has been amazing. Sort of like computers these days, I find myself wondering when I’d need or even want to upgrade.
It hasn’t really needed service yet after 80,000km. Everything is running well. My mechanic says I must be taking excellent care of it, but I’m not doing anything I haven’t before. This thing just seems to be better designed than any VW or Ford I’ve had.
Our previous Toyota was OLD but similarly rock solid. I’ve come to like their cars a lot. A friend has a 4 runner as well that has been going strong for around 15 years.
I think what’s remarkable isn’t necessarily having something incredible to say about their cars. It’s more so that I just have nothing to complain about.
The reliability stems from not touching the power train design (for 20+ years). It is also the cause of the dreadful effeciency one experiences with a Toyota.
I shopped Toyota for a trucks several times and was appalled by the MPG ratings. When a Tacoma is getting far worse MPG than a F-150 it's time for an update.
>The reliability stems from not touching the power train design (for 20+ years)
Why isn't the Dodge and lineup regarded as reliable?
Ford E-series is how old?
Most of Nissan's sedans are pretty long in the tooth now that I think about it.
A large part of why Toyota stuff is so reliable is that they're expensive up front both new and "newish" used. They also won't finance just anyone with a pulse like the "unreliable" brands will. So the people who get their hands on them can afford to maintain them on schedule and can afford to treat them well. You'll never see a newish Sienna owner stacking one floor to ceiling with bags of concrete to avoid paying for the Home Depot truck rental. You'll never see a newish 4Runner bouncing down the road with an out of round tire. You'll never see a newish Camry dragging ass hauling a family of 5 and all their luggage (the person with that use case in the Toyota tax bracket can justify/afford a Highlander) Can't say that about a Pacifica, Patriot or Altima.
Refinement certainly helps but Toyotas are reliable because any car would be reliable in the hands of Toyota owners. Any car would routinely make it to high mileage if they got babied for their first 100k (or so)
>Refinement certainly helps but Toyotas are reliable because any car would be reliable in the hands of Toyota owners.
This has not been my experience. Toyotas are just better built coming out of the factory. In the past I've had newish Chevy, Ford, and Nissan cars, and after about 30-50k miles each of them started having various small noises/rattles that built over time until something failed. The Toyota is just smoother overall out of the factory, and parts wear out more slowly.
In my experience, the whole 10 year warranty seems a bit excessive for vehicles that are nigh close to indestructible [1,2,3]. My parents have had multiple Toyotas that made it to 300K-400K miles. My brother's Corolla was rear-ended by a semi doing 30mph and wasn't even close to being totaled. Eight years later and he's still driving it through swamps in south Florida. They are impeccable feats of engineering.
Toyota ignored me when a dealership did a 10k service that I did not agree to (there was only 2k miles on the car at the time). Thus when I went to to a dealerahip for my 10k service (with an actual 10k miles on the car), they wouldn't do the free 10k service that came with the purchase of the vehicle.
Toyota has good vehicles as far as I can tell, but their ignoring of me has put me off of them.
For my next vehicle, I chose a different brand, and the vehicle had some issues, but that manufacturer made things right with no hassle.
I don't know which is better: a vehicle that will most likely be good with a company that doesn't care, or a vehicle that has some issues but with a company that does care and fixes it.
Your singular anecdote aside, "a company that doesn't care" is not a description that could be applied to Toyota in any aggregate. It's simply not true.
Tell that to literally all of the dealerships in western Oregon trying to upcharge the RAV4 Prime by $10k-$20k. Trying to buy that car last year was the scummiest car buying experience I could have imagined, and I'll never buy a Toyota in the future because of it.
Was this “regional market adjustment“? They do that with hard to get models. Try getting a TRD Pro in a limited edition color. Most dealers will mark them up a lot. They sell at these prices, so I guess the market is doing its thing.
It wasn't worth escalating for me, and I have no idea if it fell through the cracks on Toyota's end, or they bet that either I didn't know the law or wasn't going to take action. (I appreciate you mentioning that in case anyone else reading this in the U.S. doesn't know that aspect of the law, but I was aware of it.)
Write a professional, respectful letter to corporate (office of the CEO) including as many details as you can. No, seriously. No one gets letters anymore. Someone will see it because snail mail is so rare.
Dealer service centers may be hit or miss, but I've had way more misses with non-dealer repair shops. A recent one I went to ended up being more than the quoted price from the dealer.
Having said that, I recently took my Acura (Honda) to a local service station because the timing belt was quoted at near $2k and I got it done for ~$900 at a local service station. New water pump and another belt were included (as they would have been at the dealer).
What really frustrated me was the messages I was getting from the dealer. When should the timing belt be replaced? First it was 90k miles, then it was 60k miles, and because I was below both it was after 7 years (it's been 10). The other thing, for my model, some sources said "if it breaks, your engine will be damaged" but the dealer wouldn't tell me either way. I even contact Acura USA and they wouldn't contradict the dealer. Whole thing left me wanting a Toyota/Lexis.
This information is required by law to be in the owners manual, and it is different for California/rest of the USA - but same Part number so even if you are in cali, if the owners manual calls for 100k, you are probably fine.
I only service my car at the brand dealership and I’m sure it’s both overpriced and often unnecessary. It means several hundred dollars per year (25% sales tax etc). I wouldn’t want to buy a new-ish car with third party service stamps though, so the expensive service does retain some value.
So long as this doesn’t make service even more expensive, at least I’d get something for it that I don’t today. At the moment I tend to instead trade for a newer car once the 2-5 year warranty runs out. This would be cheaper than that at least.
The trick to look out for is dealership recommended service vs manufacturers recommended service.
I owned a Chevy Equinox and took it to a dealership for work around 80,000km (my numbers might be off, this was 5 or so years ago). They told me the transmission fluid had met it's suggested replacement. I wanted to keep warranty valid so I approved the work. Somehow I then found out that the manufacturers recommended interval was like 200,000km. I was only required to follow the manufacturers schedule not the made up dealers recommended schedule. If you ask, they give you some BS about the "local climate and amount of construction dust so we recommend different intervals etc etc". Either way, you aren't required to follow those schedules.
Those transmissions are garbage. They shed a lot of clutch material. It will fail before it gets to 200,000km. By the time it gets up there, if it's still working, the dirty fluid is the only thing giving it enough friction to shift. If you tried changing it at that point, it would just start slipping. A drain and fill ever 50k is the thing to do with those.
Yeah, then again dealers have service bullitens regularly and lots of experience with common failures across a model. Hard to know hence why some dealers can rip people off. Happens in any scenario where trust is high and information low
I generally agree with your point, but no one has more information then the manufacturer. The local dealership (franchisee) only has their own information. So what's more likely, the manufacturer grossly over estimating the lifespan of their product, or the local dealership squeezing out more money from their customers? Unfortunately I feel like it's the latter.
I had the opposite experience, I bought my car 2nd-hand with low miles and I went to Volkswagen dealership for the transmission service on the Dual Clutch transmission as shown in the manual. I said I’m here for the 40,000 mile service - ignorantly thinking that they follow their own manufacturers recommended maintenance. Changing the fluid in the transmission is complicated on cars with a dual clutch transmission and must be carefully done. If the transmission is damaged it’s very expensive to replace. They charged me almost $2000 and then I looked at the receipt and they didn’t change the fluid at all - in fact they did almost nothing besides jiggle the wheels and change the oil as far as I could tell! I was angry about this so they sent a tech out who tried to tell me that since it’s an “automatic transmission” it should be good for 80,000, Volkswagen just tells you to change it early.
I never returned to that dealership or any other with the car because it was clear that although they sell the cars they know almost nothing about them.
They did you a favour - lifetime transmission oil is technically correct, it just leaves out the part that not changing the oil earlier reduced the transmission lifetime massively.
They actually did you a favor. Modern transmission fluid management is a joke, with some even claiming lifetime oil. They just mean the lifetime of the car transmission, which is exactly the warranty period.
I was in the waiting room of a Toyota dealer and heard a service writer tell a woman that she would have to pay for a new oil pan because the drain plug was stripped out and service related damage was not covered under warranty.
She said the car was always serviced at that dealer and the service writer said there is no way to prove that.
You're right, it doesn't prove no one else hasn't worked on it- however there is absolutely 0 chance the dealership would win this in court, and I speak from experience of having to gone to court for similar issues. If she testified in front of the court that she only had the car serviced there AND had the documents documenting those services, the onus would be on the dealership to prove they haven't done the damage. They could defend themselves maybe by saying they use a special wrench that is physically incapable of stripping the screw(and having an expert's testimony to prove that), or any other physical or electronic signs of someone else having worked on the car - but if they can't demonstrate that then there's no way they would win such a case. Zero.
Think about who buys new Toyotas these days. It's a pretty well off crowd. Imagine this was a german luxury car dealership and it makes a lot more sense.
The dealer is making a calculated (at scale, not in any particular case) business decision that these people have enough money that they'll just bend over and take it rather than create a hassle for themselves by fighting.
If the dealer hadn't made business decision the service writer would be apologetic and offered a steep discount or whatever. But they did so the service writer is playing hardball.
Not the business decision I'd make but I completely understand the incentive.
I took my (recently out of warranty) BMW in to the local BMW dealer for a regular service. New coils, plugs and intake cleaning.
When I got it back the check engine light was on and the car was idling rough where previously it was just notifying of scheduled service and running fine. The dealer took another look and determined that I had a bent intake valve. They quoted me $15,000.00 to fix it.
They claimed this must be my fault, probably downshifting on the highway. I noted that the car ran fine when I dropped it off and a missed shift would bend more than one valve. Also, they were just doing service in the intake near the valves (with a media blaster) and that the car had 30 more miles than when I dropped it off. It seemed obvious to me that any engine damage was done by them. They insisted it was "impossible" that the damage was done by them.
I said not to do anything and that I would tow it to another shop for another opinion. Strangely they suggested I could drive the car to another shop (with a bent valve?). I had it towed and the other shop determined that one of the new spark plugs had the electrode pinched shut so it was shorting out. They also noted that the coils did not look new. They installed a new plug (~$12.00) and the car ran fine. To be sure they also did a compression test and found no evidence of a bent valve.
I went back to the BMW shop and got all my money back for the service. The service writer still had the balls to tell me that I "should be prepared for expensive service bills on these cars". I wonder how much of that reputation comes from shady dealerships ripping people off. I suspect quite a bit.
I have no proof but I think the dealership sabotaged the car on purpose. There's no way any inspection would have missed the shorted plug. The car was immediately warning of the condition after startup and was misfiring badly.
Dealerships absolutely will rip you off if they think they can get away with it.
Tech probably just screwed it up because flat rate techs are always racing the clock.
If you were just dealing with the service writer the tech probably never even knew you had issues with it until the situation was too far gone to salvage.
Yeah, it's a cliche at this point. BMW USA's response was so unsympathetic that I think they are ok with it as well. I certainly wont ever do business with them again.
Even if the plug was improperly gapped from the factory (or dropped on the floor) the tech would have to miss that and the fact that the car ran worse when he finished than when it arrived. And that the computer said things are worse.
It's either malicious or so incompetent that there's no practical difference.
I talked to the tech on the phone before finding out about the plug. The tech definitely knew I was having trouble. Interestingly the tech did admit it would be possible to bend a vale doing the media blasting. I guess that's why service writers exist to "manage the customer".
The only reason a dealer would push back against the argument is if they felt they had a pushover
I mean by that logic no work can ever be warrantied, who knows if someone went and opened up your oil drain plug if 10 miles out of the shop your car dies and it looks like someone forgot to fill it back up with oil?
Literally the only benefit I can think of for dealer visits outside of exotics is that they're usually high volume enough that in cases like this they can come up to bat for a regular. That's it.
Well in the case presented, since when she got to the dealership oil was still in the engine, there is no way the oil pan was stripped before the service, as oil would immediately leave the engine without the drain bolt.
It doesn't really matter if someone else worked on it or not. It would be highly unlikely the engine would still be running without oil, and the dealer would immediately tell her she came with no oil in the engine, not that her oil pan is stripped.
Yeah, my family member was told that she needed to bring her Camry in for a 5-month service at the dealer during the lockdowns, lest she void her warranty.
Ultimately when she pressed them on it, they agreed that the warranty would only be voided as to issues that would have been caught during such service call, but which were not caught and then got worse.
Your post resonates with me so deeply. The Toyota dealership near me wanted close to 1k for a 90k service, and the add-ons and labor charges. Almost fainted.
Ugh yeah after having a dealer try to diagnose my failed struts as “these old Toyotas just drive like that”, bill me a $150 diagnostic fee and then try to sell me a new car...
An independent mechanic found and fixed the issue with no hassle.
Never again will I waste my time with dealerships, or any mechanic with a diagnostic fee. Far too easy for them to say “sorry couldn’t reproduce the problem, that’ll be $150”
I seem to remember somewhere Toyota offering (shorter than 10 yr) warrantees optionally priced with basic services included - e.g. pay $X, you are covered for 5 year with 7 standard services in that time. If $X is reasonable, that's not a bad way to manage it.
>It's great that Toyota has measured the improvement in customer trust or loyalty being more valuable to them in the long run than shirking on quality.
That's a funny way of framing "feeling the heat from the Koreans and Mitsubishi and offering their own comparable warranty"
It's tough because I don't think you can excuse the fact that some dealer's try to overcharge. However on the same token I can see that in order to provide a 10 year warranty, you need to expect that your drivers are regularly servicing their cars at the appropriate intervals by the right people.
At the end of the day, you don't actually need to abide by the warranty and you can still have your standard warranty period if you don't follow the rules.
I bought a bicycle like that. It had 10 year full warranty given that I would get a service check each year at the bike shop.
It came with a service card where the price of each service check was listed. And while the price didn’t exactly double each year, they grew exponentially and would have ended up more than doubling the price of the bicycle.
I ended up forgoing the warranty and decide that a new bike was a better option.
Also with WFH the maintenance cycle is really messed up now since we use our cars so little - ours is set @ 15,000 km per service interval and we normally did it within one year.
I finally took my vehicle in today now that a lot of restrictions have lifted and vaccinations are at good levels. My maintenance light was on for months and I was about 5 months over for my annual safety inspection. (I was also barely driving the car.)
I don't know if I'd call it groundbreaking. Hyundai has been doing 10 year 100,000 mile warranties for basically their entire existence. Plus they don't require you to play the extend your warranty game by taking it to a dealership every year for maintenance.
Just out of curiosity, do you like your Kia? I see that cars from Korean manufacturers tend to be very competitive in terms of pricing and/or feature. But I am not sure if they are as reliable compared to, say, Japanese cars.
An anecdote of why I'm asking -- I have Samsung dishwasher, for example, and it broke less than two years for very, very minimal use (I use it like once every two weeks). Based on that experience and having owned a Samsung galaxy phone that slowed down significantly after about 2-3 years (again, I installed almost no apps other than essential ones like Gmail and a couple of bank apps), I am not sure if Korean manufacturing has matured enough for me to consider buying a car made by one of the Korean manufacturers. This is, of course, not to diss on Korean manufacturers. Just wanted to explain why I am asking this question to begin with.
Forgive me for getting up on my soapbox, but ... I strongly recommend avoiding Samsung appliances like the plague. I have had nothing but bad luck with Samsung appliances that were not TVs or computer-related. My washer and dryer both failed the first time after less than a year of use. My fridge lasted about two years before the control panel started losing LEDs, and now I replace that control panel periodically -- the replacements start burning out LEDs again typically within a matter of months. LEDs! Burning out! WTF.
To their credit, the mechanical bits of the fridge have been flawless so far (9 years later) but the control panel issue makes me hot under the collar. It's always a guess now as to whether the dispenser is about to give you cubed ice, crushed ice, or water. And judging by the volume of complaints online, I'm not the only one who has this exact experience with their refrigerators.
I even bought my washer and dryer specifically on the recommendation of Consumer Reports. The first time I can remember where they led me astray.
If it's literally just burning out LEDs, you could probably do some fairly simple modifications to protect those LEDs. It's not exactly ideal, but a simple resistor in line with each LED would almost certainly solve the issue.
I am in the same boat. Looking at getting a new vehicle and Kia is near the top of the list because of warranty. I'd love to hear about personal experiences with the brand.
I've owned GM, Honda, Ford, VW, and Chrysler. I've been very disappointed in all of them.
I have a 2 year old Niro EV with 20K miles. It is a fantastic little car, no issues or defects with it all so far. The dealership experience sucked, but that’s not the car’s fault.
My father has 2012 Sonata with a 2.4 Theta II engine, which has failed at 70k miles. Dealer replaced with no fuss and he had a nice loaner for 2 months. Initially, he had to pay for a loaner before dealer inspected it. Hyundai corporate was a pleasure to work with to get his money back.
I bought a 2019 santa fe with the same engine. As these engines are now covered under lifetime warranty. I had 0 problems with the car in the last 2 years, and honestly I am quite amazed with how much of car I got for 34k with 0% financing. I have the highest trim with AWD, which had original MSRP of $39k, so I did get a decent deal.
IMO, hyundai/kia is a great buy, Toyota/Honda used to be a good deal some years ago but right now their cars are overpriced, toyota especially.
Toyota does still retain value quite well. However, carmax offered me $32k for my car, so almost what I paid. This most likely due to the chip shortage so that value would probably be lower normally.
Thank you for sharing your experience with Hyundai/Kia. I'll definitely keep that in mind when I decide to buy a car in the future (I unfortunately would have to buy one if I were to move to suburb some day...)
You have to check the model and engine specifics. Kia had a bad run of V4 turbos due to metal shavings in the manufacturing process. I think the electric Hyundai is on recall in South Korea because it overcharges and catches on fire. That is sort of a national scandal over there as far as I can tell which will probably lead to positive changes in their manufacturing processes. It also took a lot of hassle of those V4 Kia owners to get warranty coverage.
That being said the V6 lambda engines are very nice and considered reliable. They started with the Genesis which was an important flagship vehicle. I have a V6 and have had no issues approaching 100k. But I am the type of person that wants to get 200k out of my vehicles, I have no idea if that will happen. I'd be upset if the car failed before 10 years as well.
There are forums where you can get an idea, especially if you look at previous model years.
I used to own a 2006 Hyundai and it was very reliable. I only sold it because I sustained a foot injury and could no longer operate a manual transmission, even the extremely forgiving one in that car.
I would prefer to never buy another car (and would absolutely not buy a Samsung car) but Hyundai's absolutely on my 'consider again' list.
Sure, but in my experience they then find excuses to not fix problems. I had an Elantra (don't remember which year) in which the passenger air bag would turn off if my passenger shifted their weight just a little bit at any point during the trip, and would not turn back on until I turned the car off and on again. Dealer repeatedly insisted that it was working as intended.
I always wondered if the airbag would even work in the case of an accident since my passenger's weight would surely shift.
Maybe it was the dealer you took it to? I had the exact opposite experience with my sonata. They even proactively replaced my engine due to the aluminum shavings recall. I didn’t even know that was a thing. I also had a lot of repairs done with no questions asked.
So both Hyundai and Kia have offered 10-year warranty for a long time now, but what Toyota are doing here seems a little different, although I don’t think it’s better?
They’re basically giving you a year warranty every time you service your car with them at an official dealership, this basically keeps going until the car does 10 years or 100,000 miles. So 10 years with 10 services.
The Kia/Hyundai one is just a bog standard 10 (maybe 7 now) years, without needing to do an annual service. You can also pass it on when you sell it. Seems to me like theirs is still a better deal
In the USA, the Kia 10 year 100k limited powertrain warranty only applies to the first owner. Otherwise, it reverts at that point to the 5 year 60k one. You can usually buy a certified pre-owned though and that ups it back to 100k though.
I think the 10/10k Kia/Hyundai powertrain warranty only transfers on CPOs, otherwise you get the 5-year/60k bumper to bumper only, which I think this program would be the equivalent of.
Agreed, and Mitsubishi. But perhaps this is a North America vs UK thing? Or perhaps Toyota as a sponsor of AutoExpress. Perhaps Hugo Griffiths at AutoExpress was just one of the ten thousand [0] on Tuesday.
And yet, if your car had a 3G telematics system involved (the SOS button, among other things), you’re out of luck next year. They’re doing NOTHING about it.
They sold 2017 cars with a time bomb that goes off in 2022, and nothing to do about it. LTE capable devices were around for years at that point.
I agree. Knowing that I can buy up to a 2017 model without easy mass surveillance means I no longer have to stop shopping for vehicles until whatever year they first introduced those 'features'.
Toyotas hardly need a warranty to begin with, I assume there is some catch. Such as you need dealership maintenance or something in order to extend. I have a 2005 Tacoma with 350,000 using the same drive train. It's incredible. It's hard not to buy another one (another Tacoma) because this one has lasted so long. Only reason I haven't is because the gas mileage is abysmal, even V8 Fords have better than the 4 cylinder Tacoma, but they don't last near as long...so I guess there is a trade off.
I owned a 07 Toyota Camry. In the 10 years I owned it, it required a sun visor replacement and a CV axle (and oil changes and tires). I also bought the extended warranty because I was young and dumb. That was the most expensive CV axle and sun visor I ever bought.
Groundbreaking? It is a 100k mile warrantee. Nevermind the 10-year marketing speak. Most decent vehicals come with 60k and can upgrade to 100k for $2k or less with me servicing gimmicks.
I read some details on that page. It says "Defective parts" are covered for 3 years, paintwork 2 years, perforation 12 years, electric/hybrid battery 8 years.
Really long warranties on econoboxes is nothing new, but a 10 year manufacturer warranty on a sporty car like a GR Yaris, Supra or GT86 sounds pretty unprecedented!
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[ 0.22 ms ] story [ 213 ms ] threadNo mention of it on Toyota Canada or US websites
https://www.moneysense.ca/columns/ask-moneysense/toyota-truc...
They even went so far as to SCAM customers by spraying rusted out frames with polymer compound +over the corrosion_ just to push cars over the warranty period at the lowest cost possible.
https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/frame-corrosion-after-c...
Mind you, if you live in a place with a lot of snow, rust still probably starts to take a toll after about 15 years or so but that's still a big improvement over cars in those places maybe lasting 5 years and 50K miles.
Now I see 1990's Camry's and other cars happily @ 250,000 km without any major engine work.
I had a Honda del Sol from the last year they were made and I had garaged it in the winter for the last 10 years or so. It got to the point that the dealer's mechanics would gather around it when I brought it in because basically none of the cars (which weren't that common anyway) were still on the roads if they were driven in the winter.
I enjoyed it for a long time as a second vehicle. It was also the most reliable vehicle I had owned up to that point. But as I stopped commuting and ended up traveling a lot more I just wasn't using it enough to justify the insurance/registration/etc. cost especially as it hit 170K miles or so and I didn't really rust it for long trips at that point.
(I hadn't driven it in the winter for years.)
https://www.kianiroforum.com/threads/250k-miles-in-3-years.9...
When I was a child, run-in periods and 2 year warranties were the norm. It was a big deal when the Japanese manufacturers started doing standard 3 year warranties.
It really is quite astonishing. And, as cars are loaded up with more and more fragile electronics it will be even more important, I think: when your side mirrors are cameras and screens, for examples, it's pretty important that you don't have a failure taking down your car's usability. Similarly, will it apply to a bug in the ABS firmware?
I can't imagine warranties actually have that much of an effect when it comes to depreciation.
However, given how much dealerships are pushing longer and longer loan terms as a way of achieving those magical monthly payment numbers, I assume this is a way to justify the practice even further.
Nowadays, Hyundai has about as average a reputation as they come. And not surprisingly, resale value to match.
In comparison, Chrysler has toyed with 10-year warranties by just treating it as a marketing expense. But in their efforts they never really improved in build quality and resale value showed it.
I wonder if they intentionally took inspiration from tech companies who skirt repairability
The main warranty is kept if you can show any maintenance records, even receipts for your own oil change materials is enough.
And once a year makes it obvious they want it in a dealership to make sure they're not bankrolling engine replacements for people who'd otherwise let basic maintenance intervals go indefinitely...
However, this gives them a huge advantage in the reliability field as what is put into their cars is known/proven/shown to be extremely reliable.
I always chalked up reliability as a function of new tech introduction + focus on reliability. I figured Porsche gets decent numbers because of how relatively low-tech they are and the ridiculous prices they charge for optioning-in that tech (basic things like ACC or memory seats).
Is there something else organizationally, process or product wise that Porsche does differently than the VW group? I do know that they have a separate factory w/ seperate engineering departments (:cough VW engineers design Lamborghini's).
1: https://i.imgur.com/81MoQI2.png
There's a lot of weaknesses that show up a lot quicker when you're holding an engine at redline.
Down to 9/26 from last years 4/26. Compared to VW's 24/26 that's quite a large delta.
TBH some of ranking on the list makes anecdotal sense (Toyota is #2). Others do not (Mazda as #1?!).
I'm questioning Consumer Reports methodology, how far back do they look? If it's only a sliding window of <3yrs I do not believe thats enough data.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/nr4awu/which_expensiv...
As a personal anecdote: my 2003 VW (1.8T GTI) had 330,000km when I sold it to a friend (it continues to run strong, but not sure the KMs). I did all the work myself and I did it on time. Biggest repair was AC Compressor, the rest was just routine maintenance and a couple $50 sensors. If a CEL came on I addressed it as soon as possible. At the same time, I had a friend with a similar year Jetta TDI which lit on fire around the 290k mark. Every time I was in her car the CEL was on, and I remember driving it home on a road trip once where you'd hold the pedal to the floor the whole way just to keep it at the highway speed limit.
https://blog.grabcad.com/blog/2018/10/08/porsche-and-lean-ma...
That being said, Tesla went back to early Ford for the full top-down flow system - and it's working for them. So while I love the TPS system and use it in my company, I'm willing to keep on learning.
They share some functions like brake SW or ACC, but they do their own engine and chassis.
Otherwise they source their stuff alone, and due to the low sales number they struggle to find willing suppliers.
Reliability was always a selling point for Porsches relative to their competitor. You could buy a 308 and be constantly fixing it, or a 911 and (so long as you didn't put it in a ditch) you'd have an everyday driver.
The fact that it's dropping suggests that they're feeling the effects of VW's ownership, crapping their designs up.
If I wanted those things, I would go buy a Highlander or other SUV-shaped car lacking the ability to go from pavement to AWD to 4WD to locked diffs if I get really crazy.
I like to call my off-road truck (rig in the vernacular) 'too dumb to hack'. Not that it has any meaningful security, but it is only electronic, there is not enough digital logic for there to be any attack surface worth exploiting, and even if there were some exploit, it cannot do much more than shut down the engine due to faulty timings.
Not to say that Toyota hasn't also experimented with stranger drivetrains, but they generally seem to have branched out less than Honda as an example.
Subaru is a bit of an outlier. Great quality with huge exceptions (NA head gaskets, problematic CVT), and that terrific flat four.
You'd think that people would be willing to pay more for better mileage (and no, it's not due to weight differences of the premium equipment). I know my relative who was looking at hybrid Camrys would have been happy to pay more to have both the best MPG and various other features. Instead, they got the cheap model and added the blind spot monitors and called it a day.
It's worth noting, though, that as fuel efficiency goes up each increment in mpg is less valuable, so 6-7 mpg on a car that already gets 50 mpg is not as useful as 6-7 mpg on a car that gets 20 mpg. This is because the thing you're trying to minimize (fuel burned) is in the denominator of the measure. Countries that measure fuel economy in L/100km don't have this problem. Engineering Explained does a good job of showing how the math works out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLQmwOX6Xds
I completely agree with your assessment of the MPG difference. I tried explaining this to my relative, to no avail. The number for one vehicle was under 50 MPG and the number for the other vehicle was over 50 MPG, so it was a mental sticking point that I could not overcome.
The Prius was ground-breaking work; had Chevron not killed NiMH batteries, they would have been shipping mainstream electric RAV4s in the 90s. Toyota are very happy to innovate where they think they can deliver to a high standard.
I didn’t see it in the article, but I wonder if that includes getting all of the dealerships “suggested maintenance” if you want the warranty extension to apply. I’ve had lots of sketchy dealership overcharging experiences, and if you need 5 dealership service visits to get up to the full 10 years, I can see this “warranty” costing thousands of dollars in unnecessary/fake maintenance. I’m sure that there are good actors out there, at dealerships too, but it is easy to be abused.
This seems like a tactic to bring in more money, not one that Toyota is just doing for the sake of standing behind their products. Most cars can last beyond 10yr / 100k miles, so I don’t think this costs them much. But to get the dealerships to charge you $300 for a cabin air filter a few times will probably make them more than they lose.
as long as they are under 10 years old and have covered fewer than 100,000 miles
In North America it's very common for cars to have this many miles long before the 10 year mark.
Somewhere between ~8k and ~9k, according to a random BBC article I found:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-28546589
FHA says the average is 14,300 miles a year, but 12,524 miles per year in our most populous state (California)
I guess that means the average American will hit 100,000 miles in 7 years.
https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-dri...
my current 4runner warranty/service plan covers all scheduled maintenance, filters, lubricants, etc. for the first 100k miles. However, I do have to bring it in yearly, even if the next oil change isn't due based on milage alone.
its certainly a money play, but also keeping their vehicles in good working order helps with a lot of metrics like resell value, longevity, etc that car buyers look at. i think toyota is the largest buyer of used toyotas.
If you're going to the dealer for anything other than warranty or free repairs, then you have too much money and need to be relieved of it.
- My late grandfather who was a master mechanic retired from a dealership who once sold horses and buggies in the SF Bay Area.
No matter how many times we look elsewhere, we always end up back in Toyotas. Hoping their EV R&D shows promise soon.
We got a 2017 highlander and apart from the god awful infotainment system it has been amazing. Sort of like computers these days, I find myself wondering when I’d need or even want to upgrade.
It hasn’t really needed service yet after 80,000km. Everything is running well. My mechanic says I must be taking excellent care of it, but I’m not doing anything I haven’t before. This thing just seems to be better designed than any VW or Ford I’ve had.
Our previous Toyota was OLD but similarly rock solid. I’ve come to like their cars a lot. A friend has a 4 runner as well that has been going strong for around 15 years.
I think what’s remarkable isn’t necessarily having something incredible to say about their cars. It’s more so that I just have nothing to complain about.
I shopped Toyota for a trucks several times and was appalled by the MPG ratings. When a Tacoma is getting far worse MPG than a F-150 it's time for an update.
Why isn't the Dodge and lineup regarded as reliable?
Ford E-series is how old?
Most of Nissan's sedans are pretty long in the tooth now that I think about it.
A large part of why Toyota stuff is so reliable is that they're expensive up front both new and "newish" used. They also won't finance just anyone with a pulse like the "unreliable" brands will. So the people who get their hands on them can afford to maintain them on schedule and can afford to treat them well. You'll never see a newish Sienna owner stacking one floor to ceiling with bags of concrete to avoid paying for the Home Depot truck rental. You'll never see a newish 4Runner bouncing down the road with an out of round tire. You'll never see a newish Camry dragging ass hauling a family of 5 and all their luggage (the person with that use case in the Toyota tax bracket can justify/afford a Highlander) Can't say that about a Pacifica, Patriot or Altima.
Refinement certainly helps but Toyotas are reliable because any car would be reliable in the hands of Toyota owners. Any car would routinely make it to high mileage if they got babied for their first 100k (or so)
This has not been my experience. Toyotas are just better built coming out of the factory. In the past I've had newish Chevy, Ford, and Nissan cars, and after about 30-50k miles each of them started having various small noises/rattles that built over time until something failed. The Toyota is just smoother overall out of the factory, and parts wear out more slowly.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTPnIpjodA8 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnVZXQD5_k
Toyota Recalls 1993 Camry Due To Fact That Owners Really Should Have Bought Something New By Now
https://www.theonion.com/toyota-recalls-1993-camry-due-to-fa...
0. Scotty Kilmer - internet famous mechanic in Houston TX - https://www.youtube.com/user/scottykilmer
Well, they did come up with the Prius, so I think they might have a shot at EVs.
If you don't hit all the tropes and get people to share your content and get all the resulting clicks the algo will bury you.
Toyota has good vehicles as far as I can tell, but their ignoring of me has put me off of them.
For my next vehicle, I chose a different brand, and the vehicle had some issues, but that manufacturer made things right with no hassle.
I don't know which is better: a vehicle that will most likely be good with a company that doesn't care, or a vehicle that has some issues but with a company that does care and fixes it.
This is like saying you refuse to play any game in the Call of Duty franchise because GameStop charges $70 instead of $60 for it.
https://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2016/02/5-times-you-c...
https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/21528/what-rep...
If you have a specific problem that they refuse to fix, then there's Lemon law.
Having said that, I recently took my Acura (Honda) to a local service station because the timing belt was quoted at near $2k and I got it done for ~$900 at a local service station. New water pump and another belt were included (as they would have been at the dealer).
What really frustrated me was the messages I was getting from the dealer. When should the timing belt be replaced? First it was 90k miles, then it was 60k miles, and because I was below both it was after 7 years (it's been 10). The other thing, for my model, some sources said "if it breaks, your engine will be damaged" but the dealer wouldn't tell me either way. I even contact Acura USA and they wouldn't contradict the dealer. Whole thing left me wanting a Toyota/Lexis.
So long as this doesn’t make service even more expensive, at least I’d get something for it that I don’t today. At the moment I tend to instead trade for a newer car once the 2-5 year warranty runs out. This would be cheaper than that at least.
I owned a Chevy Equinox and took it to a dealership for work around 80,000km (my numbers might be off, this was 5 or so years ago). They told me the transmission fluid had met it's suggested replacement. I wanted to keep warranty valid so I approved the work. Somehow I then found out that the manufacturers recommended interval was like 200,000km. I was only required to follow the manufacturers schedule not the made up dealers recommended schedule. If you ask, they give you some BS about the "local climate and amount of construction dust so we recommend different intervals etc etc". Either way, you aren't required to follow those schedules.
I never returned to that dealership or any other with the car because it was clear that although they sell the cars they know almost nothing about them.
But yeah, your story is unfortunately a usual ordeal at dealerships.
She said the car was always serviced at that dealer and the service writer said there is no way to prove that.
The dealer is making a calculated (at scale, not in any particular case) business decision that these people have enough money that they'll just bend over and take it rather than create a hassle for themselves by fighting.
If the dealer hadn't made business decision the service writer would be apologetic and offered a steep discount or whatever. But they did so the service writer is playing hardball.
Not the business decision I'd make but I completely understand the incentive.
When I got it back the check engine light was on and the car was idling rough where previously it was just notifying of scheduled service and running fine. The dealer took another look and determined that I had a bent intake valve. They quoted me $15,000.00 to fix it.
They claimed this must be my fault, probably downshifting on the highway. I noted that the car ran fine when I dropped it off and a missed shift would bend more than one valve. Also, they were just doing service in the intake near the valves (with a media blaster) and that the car had 30 more miles than when I dropped it off. It seemed obvious to me that any engine damage was done by them. They insisted it was "impossible" that the damage was done by them.
I said not to do anything and that I would tow it to another shop for another opinion. Strangely they suggested I could drive the car to another shop (with a bent valve?). I had it towed and the other shop determined that one of the new spark plugs had the electrode pinched shut so it was shorting out. They also noted that the coils did not look new. They installed a new plug (~$12.00) and the car ran fine. To be sure they also did a compression test and found no evidence of a bent valve.
I went back to the BMW shop and got all my money back for the service. The service writer still had the balls to tell me that I "should be prepared for expensive service bills on these cars". I wonder how much of that reputation comes from shady dealerships ripping people off. I suspect quite a bit.
I have no proof but I think the dealership sabotaged the car on purpose. There's no way any inspection would have missed the shorted plug. The car was immediately warning of the condition after startup and was misfiring badly.
Dealerships absolutely will rip you off if they think they can get away with it.
Tech probably just screwed it up because flat rate techs are always racing the clock.
If you were just dealing with the service writer the tech probably never even knew you had issues with it until the situation was too far gone to salvage.
Even if the plug was improperly gapped from the factory (or dropped on the floor) the tech would have to miss that and the fact that the car ran worse when he finished than when it arrived. And that the computer said things are worse.
It's either malicious or so incompetent that there's no practical difference.
I talked to the tech on the phone before finding out about the plug. The tech definitely knew I was having trouble. Interestingly the tech did admit it would be possible to bend a vale doing the media blasting. I guess that's why service writers exist to "manage the customer".
I mean by that logic no work can ever be warrantied, who knows if someone went and opened up your oil drain plug if 10 miles out of the shop your car dies and it looks like someone forgot to fill it back up with oil?
Literally the only benefit I can think of for dealer visits outside of exotics is that they're usually high volume enough that in cases like this they can come up to bat for a regular. That's it.
It doesn't really matter if someone else worked on it or not. It would be highly unlikely the engine would still be running without oil, and the dealer would immediately tell her she came with no oil in the engine, not that her oil pan is stripped.
Ultimately when she pressed them on it, they agreed that the warranty would only be voided as to issues that would have been caught during such service call, but which were not caught and then got worse.
A Honda service can easily be double that due to replacing the timing belt.
An independent mechanic found and fixed the issue with no hassle.
Never again will I waste my time with dealerships, or any mechanic with a diagnostic fee. Far too easy for them to say “sorry couldn’t reproduce the problem, that’ll be $150”
This is every business decision!
It's great that Toyota has measured the improvement in customer trust or loyalty being more valuable to them in the long run than shirking on quality.
I only wish more companies would do this!
That's a funny way of framing "feeling the heat from the Koreans and Mitsubishi and offering their own comparable warranty"
At the end of the day, you don't actually need to abide by the warranty and you can still have your standard warranty period if you don't follow the rules.
It came with a service card where the price of each service check was listed. And while the price didn’t exactly double each year, they grew exponentially and would have ended up more than doubling the price of the bicycle.
I ended up forgoing the warranty and decide that a new bike was a better option.
pre-pandemic we were doing a little less than that.
with WFH, we have only put on 4k in the last 14 months...
kicking myself for not doing a lower KM lease.
An anecdote of why I'm asking -- I have Samsung dishwasher, for example, and it broke less than two years for very, very minimal use (I use it like once every two weeks). Based on that experience and having owned a Samsung galaxy phone that slowed down significantly after about 2-3 years (again, I installed almost no apps other than essential ones like Gmail and a couple of bank apps), I am not sure if Korean manufacturing has matured enough for me to consider buying a car made by one of the Korean manufacturers. This is, of course, not to diss on Korean manufacturers. Just wanted to explain why I am asking this question to begin with.
Forgive me for getting up on my soapbox, but ... I strongly recommend avoiding Samsung appliances like the plague. I have had nothing but bad luck with Samsung appliances that were not TVs or computer-related. My washer and dryer both failed the first time after less than a year of use. My fridge lasted about two years before the control panel started losing LEDs, and now I replace that control panel periodically -- the replacements start burning out LEDs again typically within a matter of months. LEDs! Burning out! WTF.
To their credit, the mechanical bits of the fridge have been flawless so far (9 years later) but the control panel issue makes me hot under the collar. It's always a guess now as to whether the dispenser is about to give you cubed ice, crushed ice, or water. And judging by the volume of complaints online, I'm not the only one who has this exact experience with their refrigerators.
I even bought my washer and dryer specifically on the recommendation of Consumer Reports. The first time I can remember where they led me astray.
I've owned GM, Honda, Ford, VW, and Chrysler. I've been very disappointed in all of them.
I bought a 2019 santa fe with the same engine. As these engines are now covered under lifetime warranty. I had 0 problems with the car in the last 2 years, and honestly I am quite amazed with how much of car I got for 34k with 0% financing. I have the highest trim with AWD, which had original MSRP of $39k, so I did get a decent deal.
IMO, hyundai/kia is a great buy, Toyota/Honda used to be a good deal some years ago but right now their cars are overpriced, toyota especially.
Toyota does still retain value quite well. However, carmax offered me $32k for my car, so almost what I paid. This most likely due to the chip shortage so that value would probably be lower normally.
That being said the V6 lambda engines are very nice and considered reliable. They started with the Genesis which was an important flagship vehicle. I have a V6 and have had no issues approaching 100k. But I am the type of person that wants to get 200k out of my vehicles, I have no idea if that will happen. I'd be upset if the car failed before 10 years as well.
There are forums where you can get an idea, especially if you look at previous model years.
I would prefer to never buy another car (and would absolutely not buy a Samsung car) but Hyundai's absolutely on my 'consider again' list.
I’ve had some terrible experiences with Toyota dealerships in the past. Beyond scummy and scammy.
They’re basically giving you a year warranty every time you service your car with them at an official dealership, this basically keeps going until the car does 10 years or 100,000 miles. So 10 years with 10 services.
The Kia/Hyundai one is just a bog standard 10 (maybe 7 now) years, without needing to do an annual service. You can also pass it on when you sell it. Seems to me like theirs is still a better deal
Normally all he'll need to do is to make a phone call and say he's getting his 'friend' to bring the car into the shop.
[0]: https://xkcd.com/1053/
They sold 2017 cars with a time bomb that goes off in 2022, and nothing to do about it. LTE capable devices were around for years at that point.
https://www.peugeot.co.uk/owners/assistance-warranty/warrant...
Why lie to people?