Ask HN: What things that tech recruiters do, annoy you the most as an engineer?

137 points by pejrich ↗ HN
For me it's definitely their desire for everything to be a call. If I'm even remotely interested, that'll be a 30mins call to setup. I really only have 3 basic things I want to know to see if it's even worth perusing: Salary range, tech stack, team size. And when you ask them about those things: "Oh, well cover all the on the call".

209 comments

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Having no understanding of the tech they're recruiting for.
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Totally, but that is something I'm not sure we should ever expect.

1) they got crap requirements from the company to begin with

2) even if they got great requirements, if they could talk about them all fluently, they would probably be a developer themselves and not a recruiter.

Clearly not reading my resume and sending me a job that's obvious not a good fit even given a cursory glance.
Or responding to "I'm not interested" with a canned "great! Find a slot on my calendar to talk about the role!"
Yeah, this is the biggest annoyance for me. I haven’t used PHP for about 6 years but still get offers for PHP roles.
Just had one reach out with "I really love your IoT skills".. of which I have none.
Sending automated messages based on your LinkedIn profile, without actually reading it?
My "one weird trick" for spotting this behavior is using my middle initial on LinkedIn. LinkedIn stores it as a part of my first name, so their spam always starts off with "Hey Mark P.!"

Those emails get ignored. I ignore most automated agency emails as well.

I will always reply to personal emails from in-house recruiters or employees, however. I am starting a new job soon, though, so it's only to thank them for writing.

Nice!

I add an emoji before my first name on linkedin for the same reason.

I wonder how many agency-bots you crashed with that...
The only thing I think is unacceptable, is when my LinkedIn profile or resume aren't even close to the role they're sending me. If all of my experience is in a certain role/tech stack, don't send roles outside of that role/tech stack. Sending every Sr. JS role you have to every email in your list is just not acceptable.
- Ghosting

- Sending totally unsuitable vacancies

- Refusing to disclose company name

- Refusing to disclose salary

- Not respecting your time

- Fishing for your information without disclosing anything to you

Generally having a kind of condescending, slimy, sales like approach in communication, although this is far less common then it used to be.

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> Generally having a kind of condescending, slimy, sales like approach in communication

Gives you an impression they could by selling anything. In the morning - you to the company. After lunch - a house or a used car.

Not following up after an interview is a definitely deal breaker for me. I won't ever work with a recruiter again if I've go on an interview and don't hear back because they don't want to share the bad news.
>> If I'm even remotely interested, that'll be a 30mins call to setup

Not showing up for the call they insisted on :P

My last job search, I got stood up by the same recruiter twice for the initial information call (and they didn't want to email). Felt pretty dumb I'd given them a second chance, and I contemplated letting the company involved know that they were working with someone who was representing them so badly.
Sending emails to my work address. Even if I'm considering new roles, that's a hard pass from me regardless of whether the role sounds interesting.
This happens to me too. I find it incredibly unprofessional and immediately blacklist any recruiter that emails my work address. I purposely don't post it publicly (though it's not hard to guess). They found me through LinkedIn, contact me there and I'll get notified on the site and my personal email address.
Agreed.

Easiest way for me to not even consider your opening (and don't worry, 99.9% of the time they're not worth it)

Saying the offer isn't negotiable but oh hey, I got your email about offer from XYZ and we'd like to bump our (lowball) offer.

Saying they'd like to "chat" instead of just telling you you passed the interview and got an offer.

Starting with „the manager of Team xyz has an interesting position and wants to talk to you informally“. And as soon as one agrees, they schedule a full interview loop which contains lots of leetcode madness and zero information about the actual position.
The same happened to me with many recruiters, but the worst was a recruiter from AWS who wanted to "have a quick chat".

I only had a simple yes/no question about the job that was important enough to me to either refuse or stay considering the position.

The recruiter just uploaded my cv in his database to start the normal long process and never bothered answering to me ever again.

It was a waste of time for everyone involved.

I am on the other side of this. As a hiring manager using recruiters, I am annoyed by:

- lack of diversity in candidates. (not just virtue signaling. if all I see are nearly identical resumes, I assume the recruiter is just phoning it in.)

- candidates “just a little out of your price range” who are 30% over the top end of my budget.

- “confidentially” telling me what other offers a candidate has because then I know they are also leaking my offers to my competitors

- telling me every candidate is great

- telling me every candidate is a hot commodity like they are hotels.com

Probably annoying as a hiring manager, but one of the best ways for workers wages to rise is by using competing, “leaked” offers against each other.

This is in effect how you gauge what your talents are worth in the labor market. I’m glad offers get leaked for this reason

Well, this how I could negotiate up my starting salary. I told each recruiter the competing offer, they didn't have to leak anything.
What it means is that I don’t tell the recruiter. The candidate can do whatever they want.

We pay well. I don’t alter my offers based on the others I hear about. We usually beat them anyway, but when we don’t, that’s too bad.

> - “confidentially” telling me what other offers a candidate has because then I know they are also leaking my offers to my competitors

The only problem here is that they're claiming confidentiality which is obviously not true. Workers and their agents should be playing offers off each other.

These recruiters are not agents of the workers. My company, not the candidates, pay the recruiters.
Some of us actually have agents which represent us to recruiters.
You aren't getting what you want if nobody in those demographics is choosing to get a degree in CS in college. I choose to believe this is a cultural problem (which is why Nigerians are even more overrepresented relative to U.S. population in higher education than Asians, despite being black [1]), but certainly there are many factors that play into it.

[1]: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn...

> if all I see are nearly identical resumes, I assume the recruiter is just phoning it in.

Could you explain what you mean by this? I don't quite understand the language.

verb gerund or present participle: phoning

// ...

INFORMAL work or perform without much effort, interest, or enthusiasm. "I think of my playing as committed—I can't remember ever phoning it in at any performance"

Phoning it in means giving up on doing a good job, and just putting in the bare minimum effort to get the job done. It comes from the idea of phoning in rather than putting in the effort to show up in person.

So in this case, they don't actually care about finding good (or underpriced) candidates, they're just spamming a basic resume match.

+1

By way of example from the other side of the fence - my LinkedIn profile asks recruiters to state that they've read my pre-requisites for a role when they contact me. 90% don't do that (and clearly haven't).

The kind of recruiter that doesn't bother to read the candidate's profile is "phoning it in"

I delete all of those - the remaining recruiters are generally ok, though they're often offering roles that are trivially discoverable to anyone actively job hunting.

I think there is more to the original comment than this though. I'm interested to know how they measure diversity when reading a CV and how they judge a recruiter to be "phoning it in" or not. I know what the phrase means - I just don't understand the meaning in this context.
I don't know if this is what they meant, but I assumed they were getting at the idea that a good recruiter will find you candidates who are better than they appear on their CV (because they'll be cheaper relative to their ability), and it would also show they weren't just spamming for a match to the template.
I mean if all the candidates are only from big companies or went to the same school or are all white men (this part I only figure out on videocalls), then I assume the recruiter isn’t fishing very many recruiting pools. I want recruiters who do more than search LinkedIn. They should be tapped in to local technology groups, alumni associations, professional groups, etc.
Thanks that makes sense.
The diversity thing is really hard to do anything about. I think I've seen maybe 10-15 relevant (in the loosest sense: person was a dev of some sort, not a career switcher) CVs from a woman over my entire career. And I did hire three of them, compared to dozens of men and thousands of CVs. Perhaps my estimate is wrong or something, it's hard to keep track of this number, but I do tend to give it an extra good look when it's a woman just because it's so rare.

I think it's the pipeline as well as selection: I work in finance and usually in smaller firms.

It may be hard, but that is their job. They are supposed to find me the very best candidates. There are plenty of professional groups, alumni associations, meetup groups, etc. devoted to diversity in tech. If they can’t even find a few women, then how can I trust they are really looking everywhere to find the very best?
Persistently messaging you to get you to apply but ghosting you and being unable to provide any status updates after you do.

Will add to the OP’s list by saying they often also leave out even the hiring company’s name and if it’s a defined length contract in the initial message. Why do I need to get on a call for this?

> but ghosting you and being unable to provide any status updates after you do

Ghosting you is definitely not ok, but the inability to provide status updates usually comes from the end-client, not the recruiter.

Calls. Everyone wants to talk or even video chat. It’s the most annoying thing, not only by recruiters; everything is a voice/video meeting nowadays instead of mail or text.
One 3rd party recruiter told me once that this is so they get paid in case the lead bypasses them and applies directly to company. Anyone aware if this is common?
I do it all the time, because 90% of the time the recruiter is lazily cut-and-pasting the job description directly from the company's own public listing, typos and all.

5 seconds with a search engine and I can usually find the exact job. Now I know the name of the company you're so carefully trying to avoid naming.

A request for a synchronous form of communication is a request for your time. People should earn it first.
I tell them that it’s important to me to talk to them, but it’s not the most important thing I’m doing right now. A call requires my immediate attention. An email requires, and will get, my attention.
Calls++

The initial intro and description can be handled via email or text. If not, well that is a red flag right away.

I'm guessing it's a good way for recruiters to gauge your interest too..

You're not going to take a call from someone you couldn't imagine working for.

I just say "please send me the job description" instead of agreeing to a call. If it looks like a good fit then we can arrange a call.
Sadly I think the biggest pain I've suffered is from recruiters calling and making every conversation a rambly/chatty/friendly call that doesn't actually give any details.

I've been called by recruiters who won't name the company they're recruiting for, the salary range, and are incapable of actually describing the daily-expections beyond buzzwords.

I've found the best approach for me is to google "sysadmin helsinki", etc, and applying directly to companies. Any time I see an application form that wants facebook/linkedin/github details I just close the window.

Dealing with people (in-house recruiters possible) in the actual company cuts actually allows you to have a decent conversation about expected skillsets, areas that are involved, working hours, on-call schedules, salary, etc.

This is because in most cases recruiters chase buzzwords and are not technical in nature at all.

I've had a handful of good experiences with recruiters, this seems to mostly be with recruiters who at one point were engineers or have been hired by FAANG. However, my best experience with a recruiter lead to a job that after about two weeks didn't fit the description of the job at hand. In short, I was under the impression I'd be writing Go and Elixir and within two weeks was writing glue code to hold together a shit-tier ruby app expected to "scale to 9-9's reliability". Other times, I've ascertained I haven't gotten a job after a botched interview and heard "officially" from the recruiter weeks later. Sometimes they're genuinely just idiots or incompetent (which is mostly annoying because it sucks when your time is wasted by someone incompetent). In short, I no longer trust recruiters.

They're not saying the company name because they don't want you going there directly and applying without them getting their hefty bonus
> They're not saying the company name because they don't want you going there directly and applying without them getting their hefty bonus

Of course, but I'm not sure why that is my problem. Does the company want good people, or just the best they can afford after recruiter fees? If the recruiter can talk the talk, I'll hang with them vs going direct, and they will get the commission. If not, they won't get the placement anyway. They would be better off telling me the company and making a case for themselves why I should work with them (dealing with salary negotiation etc) vs hiding details and ending up up with me bailing early on the opportunity. The typical approach is short-sighted imo.

For legal reasons, if a company receives a resume for a given person from 2 sources, it tosses them all and marks you as a no hire.

When 2 recruiters sends in your info, the company does not know whom to compensate. They have been sued for this. 15 years ago, the common practice, because lawsuits and fraud are expensive, it was safer to pass on the candidate.

It looks to me like another incentive to avoid recruiters as much as you can.

Getting your application thrown away because you happened to postulate a the company the recruiter didn't disclose you is just horrible.

Good form, is for the recruiter to tell you before they submit, so you can de conflict. Specifically tell them you are working with more than one recruiter, and need to avoid problems.

Between a recruiter and me submitting, I prefer the recruiter, as they should be pushing to get the job, its in their interest. If I get the job, it is no skin off of me.

Why’d I do that? What do I care if they get a bunch of money when I’m hired.
The money on the other side is ‘finite’. You could go direct and suggest getting a signing bonus instead of the recruiter getting 20-25% of your first annual salary.

I’m currently hiring for a bunch of roles and recruiters are aggressively reaching out that they “have the perfect candidate for your vacancy”. Even though I’m looking for experienced ML specialists and they’re offering someone with 1 year of Java CRUD app experience… they’re playing the numbers game on both sides of the market.

Then they should negotiate that they get the signing bonus if they make the referral, whether or not they're involved in the rest of the process.
That would only encourage them to spam the job at everyone who has the faintest glimmer of a chance of getting the job. Which is kind of what they do now..
This is still sort of bananas to me. I can't imagine applying to a company without... Well, knowing and investigating the company. How early in the process is this information normally revealed?
In my experience, you submit your resume to the recruiter, they pass it on to the company, and if the company wants to go further, the recruiter will give you the details.
There's a technique I've experimented with over the past 2 years that seems to cut through some of these cloak-and-dagger games.

State that you want to conduct your own research into the company first, and that by hiding the name they are coming off as unprofessional. To avoid the questions on conflict and timing, add this note: "You can use the this message and its timestamp as a proof of first contact."

Some come back with actual details. Always be kind and courteous with them.

Nonetheless, what I wrote back in 2014 still holds true: https://bostik.iki.fi/aivoituksia/pages/recruiter-anxiety.ht...

> Any time I see an application form that wants facebook/linkedin/github details I just close the window.

You might be doing yourself a disservice there. It varies by company but I ask our HR team to offer the option of LinkedIn profile as an alternative to uploading a CV/resume in case you have the former but don't have the latter to hand or prepared. It's still a minority but I do see people come through who use their public LinkedIn profile as their CV.

Github is a complete waste of time as a guideline to anything useful. If there was any doubt about that in the past the recent trend I've seen of people setting up separate GitHub accounts for each job they have and keeping their personal account separate has completely removed it. (Sometimes this behaviour is company mandated, but often it's peoples' own choice.)

I've never seen the point at all of asking for other social networks because that stuff is none of my business.

Why do you find GitHub useless? Doesn't having access to a good chunk of code samples help guide the decision, even if it isn't their whole body of open-source work?
I don't use my Github as something public facing, so if you saw my account, it would look like a random mish-mash of forks, partially started projects, etc. Because it's a tool I use everyday, I don't want to spend the time making it a presentation layer. That's what Linkedin is for.
Fair point, I guess I was more complaining about sites that ONLY allow linkedin for applications - something I don't see too often but something that seems to becoming more common.
Agreed.

I see the request for social media, as a method to determine if you will fit in. If the group you are going to is extreme in some way, it would be a blessing to avoid them. e.g. if they all play tennis and they have their own tennis tournament ... and you hate tennis ... you will hate working there.

Makes me wonder if you, as a potential employee, should ask to see their linkedin / facebook pages .....

Offering roles outside of my experience and current knowledge stack. Lowball salaries.
For me it's what company does - does it do something useful enough, meaningful for people - and how the team in the company approaches reaching goals - do people in the company have a good, healthy, positive dynamic and attitude.

Salary range is more a function of the market (yes, there are companies which seem to under- or even overpay), tech stack is changeable if needed, team size's flexible - if it's too big, it splits into parts.

The most annoying thing... is that you often don't know what was not good from the company standpoint.

A simple solution to the problem of recruiters always wanting to speak over the telephone is to set up a premium rate phone number and have them call you through that. You can sit at home on the sofa and chat with people about their hot new gig while the dollars roll in.
AFAIK premium rate numbers no longer exist in the US.
Hah I came here to say the exact same thing. I've found that if you just save their number and ignore all their calls, they'll follow up each call with an email :P
- having calls for the sole purpose of getting my name in their pipeline with no intention to actually help me find a job

- ghosting

- asking for my current salary

- asking for my desired salary for a job that I know very little about

- not sharing the actual salary range for the position we're discussing

Imo complaining about recruiters is really just a kind of humble-brag way to let people know how in demand you are.
It's not about how in demand you are specifically, more a function of demand in the area you live. Live in such an area and you can expect to get InMails from recruiters every other day of the week.
Not to humblebrag, but Google recruiters like to email me about vague exciting projects that they don't describe, and of course I just don't reply to them, and this seems to make them really mad to the point they called me at work to complain about it.
The "job" is really a team of Google researchers, trying to understand why no one calls back recruiters.

By ignoring them, you become more and more interesting to them, and their study. Be wary. Soon they will stalk to IRL.

Mixing up Java and Javascript in 2021 for one thing.

Though I leave my little Java experience (just some side tasks, no career in it) on the CV as a honey pot that allows me to identify stupid recruiters earlier. If they contact me because of it, I know they're just chasing buzzwords and don't care about actual experience.

They call to see if you have a pulse and to ask how much compensation you are looking for. To them that's all that matters.
To be fair that’s very handy to shortcut a lot of unnecessary interviewing to get an offer 80k below what you’re making. Local employers, aside from the regional Google and Microsoft offices, are never interested in paying me what I make.
Pretending to be the hiring manager / sending their reachout through the hiring manager's email.
Interesting phrasing. These emails are sent with the hiring managers consent. The hiring manager is the senior partner in the endeavour, so your gripe is with the orgs themselves, that do this? Which is basically FAANG and anyone who aspires to be them?
For me, it's reducing me down to a set of "$X years experience with the $Y language/framework/tool" dot points.

Followed closely by "how much are you currently earning?"

If they ask what you are earning, is there harm in just bumping it by 20%?
You might never hear about opportunities paying only 10% more than your current one but that you would prefer for $REASON beyond the salary. Saying a number first is also something you may want to avoid (but it's been discussed ad nauseam already so I'm not going to rehash the arguments here).