There's a drawing of what it will look like when "complete", but no indication of what it currently consists of (and it's still an artist's rendering).
I'm super disappointed China was excluded from the ISS. The world should be contributing on behalf of humanity together to expand space technology/exploration.
How is it the US trusts Russia but not China in this regard?
Good on China for pushing ahead and developing their own space program and their own space station.
>the cold war with the other one is just now spinning up
This can't be the correct explanation since the China exclusion is not recent.
Is anyone still investigating who started that Bloomberg fake news that kick-started the entire 5G/Huawei conspiracy ? I mean there was no proof that anything weird is happening so I am still wondering if there was a government Agency or some rich dudes that started this.
No, until a couple years ago there was the expectation (hope?) China would become more liberal and closer to the West. A lot of economic concessions were made with that expectation in mind. Turns out we were wrong.
American FDI in China even under the last administration went up, and both the EU and the US were busy signing free trade deals with China. I don't remember Apple building computers in the Soviet Union. Follow the money, not the news headlines. There's going to be no second cold war because there is no ideological competition and China is deeply integrated in just about every value chain on the planet.
The second cold war has been going on for almost a decade, it just become more significant with Trump escalating. But the Washington foreign policy think tanks have been talking about it for almost a decade. Its all viewable on their YouTube channels.
Back then the risks of not integrating Russia were massive.
Their scientists could move to China, Iran, or even North Korea.
US would like to avoid that.
It's because the ISS was started during a rare period of cooperation just after the fall of communism but before the rise of Putin. By the time
Russia started regressing into authoritarianism, it was too late for the US to ban Russia from the ISS, especially when the ISS depends on the Russian orbital segment for station keeping and life support.
The really remarkable thing about China is that given the unprecedented feats that go on there, I really don't feel confident anyone in the West understands why.
I really wanted to write a post about this showing differences in regulation - but couldn't because the Chinese regulatory approach is too opaque to me.
There seems to be remarkably little information on what the facts on the ground are. And given the rumoured Chinese programs of influencing foreign universities I do think it is questionable which channels of information are reliable vs tainted by their propaganda.
Cherry picking and then overgeneralization are the two poisonous pills that are been fed to westerners about China.
Western media pick all the authoritarian measures CCP did or is doing and blow them up and make them all about China.
They ignored many things Chinese government (here most westerners or media couldn't tell the difference between Chinese administrative government and CCP and thought they were the same thing), and Chinese people did right in the past decades.
I often say China today has been built on three things:
1. Equality between men and women. China did very well in this. There are lots of problems still obviously but in general women in China are quite equal to men. China has the most self-made female billionaires, maybe more than the rest of the world's combined.
2. Unleashed entrepreneurship. No need to say much about it here.
3. A very solid education system together with Han Chinese tradition of valuing education. Nine years of free and compulsory education for the entire nation before high school and many options for next level education.
From my understanding of Chinese culture from having a minor in chinese, I'm very skeptical of equality of women in china except as a CCP official "fact". And pointing to the absolute number of female billionaires should really be talking about rates not absolute numbers but that does not say anything about the average woman.
I think it’s a nuanced point. There is definitely a strong patriarchy in Chinese culture, and there was never anything like the Women’s liberation movement. But Women weren’t excluded from the workforce since the rise of communism… so it was more a slight head start on higher participation rates of employment.
There was a huge women's liberation movement. The reason ccp got women on their side was by campaigning for equality between men and women. The slogan was "women can hold half of the sky". ccp pushed for women to get access in education, be free from their husbands, from traditional family roles. Why women can't do what a man can do? Why women can't learn how to read? Why women can't make decision in the house? Why women can't handle money in the house? Why women have to have their foot bound? Why women can't be industrialized workers (In 1950s, working as industrial worker was the cool job), Why women can't become soldiers? My grandma was born in 1931, she had her foot bounded, didn't learn how to read, and was arranged married to my grandpa. After the PRC was founded, she was in her 20s, a young woman, She joined ccp. And went around in her village to talk about women's rights. Why couldn't women do this, why men are so privilege etc. She got a lot of illiterate women to join a study club, learning how to read, telling the women how to standup, grow a spine, not be weak.
I am surprised people didn't know there was a women's movement. If you look at the movement just by itself, the transformation of women's standing in the society and culture before and after is massive. Comparing across the global, it is still one of the largest transformations. But prephas it is all buried in the ccp, communism, and mao, all that bad rep. What actually caused, triggered, happened in the Chinese revolution between 1930 to 1960s is never talked about, never being looked at objectively. Only those who lived through that history, personally experienced it, knew the good, the bad, the legit and craziness. The world is not black and white. Things always happen for a reason. Before my grandma passed away, she had a portrait of mao in her home. And talked fondly of what ccp meant to her and the changes it brought to her life.
Because it was inseparable from the communist movement. The slogan you referenced was the communist slogan.
Communism requires equality, there was no independent women’s movement. Your families experience as you described corroborates that.
To strengthen my point: how many women are in political leadership positions? People’s Congress looks very male heavy…100%? communism brought equal participation, but didn’t stop patriarchy.
There was woman's liberation movement before CCP took power in 1949.
It started at the end of Qing dynasty and continued with up and downs until Chiang's China. You are also right too that communism naturally calls for equality between man and woman.
You need to look at where was women's standing in the society and culture 80, 90 years ago before the ccp.
My grandma was born in 1931, to a farmer household in a village in hebei. In that age, the culture, the believe in a significant portion of the Chinese society, was that women should abide by the husband, should stay at home, do house chores, raise kids. They don't need to study. For a commoner, if you want to teach your kid, you personally contact a teacher and the teacher decide if they want to keep the kid. Like, if the teacher says this kid looks dumb, doesn't have a future, he will not take in the kid. My grandma's foot was bounded. My great grandparents didn't sent her to the teachers. She couldn't read. She was married to my grandpa through arranged marriage.
During the ccp revolution between 1940 to 1950s, women joined the ccp, and pushed for women liberation. They campaigned for no more feet binding, no more arranged marriages, the right to learn how to read and knowledge, women should do whatever men can do, become industrialized factory workers, soldiers, no longer confined to their traditional female roles. That was Chinese women's equal rights social movement. No less significant then women movements elsewhere. The saying was "women can hold half of the sky". ccp's leaders started the messaging, it resonated with the people, and then people reinforced that messaging. This is how the political movement had strength and kept alive. You have to understand ccp's revolution became a wide scale revolution because the political goals matched with people's desires. People voted with their feet. My grandma joined the ccp as well. She campaigned and learned how to read from her activities with the ccp.
My grandparents had 5 kids, 2 girls. My grandma was always a strong supporter of the girls, encouraged them to be strong and independent, telling them to chase big dreams and do want their hearts tell them to do. My grandpa not so much. He sided with the boys much more. Like the vast majority of Chinese families before 1990s, the family was resource constraint. They could only afford to eat meat during big holidays. My grandpa would try to give the boys better pieces of the meat to eat. Same thing with cloths.
重男轻女(preferences for boys) is Chinese culture and custom issue. Its people's thinking, its the culture, not desire or mandate of the government. The government didn't tell the people to have only boys and not girls. Its the people who did that. If you want the official and legal stance, since 1950, Chinese constitution says "women enjoys same political, economic, cultural, social rights as men". Marriage law says "Both parties must be at will, no third party shall interfere". So technically, my grandpa's action of favoring boys is against the constitution. Before the 90s, there were still places that practiced arranged marriages, technically its also illegal. You could say it the government's fault for not enforcing the laws. The reality is preferences for boys is ingrained. And if the government enforces bans on practices like arranged marriage, people say its destroying traditional culture, limiting cultural freedoms.
I think the government was trying to change people's mentality and culture on gender. One of the important action was making education mandatory. This forced parents to give girls and boys both education, regardless of the social economic status of the family. And when I was going through Chinese school, we were all taught on respecting each other. Text books have many stories about heroines, women liberation, equality etc. My classes treat everyone the same, everything was based on merits. Girls did well on grades, and the teachers would tell the guys "shame, look at the girls". Many class reps were girls. At least I view girls with utmost respect. And the common saying goes "In front of women, the women is always right"
The comment I responded to stated this:
"There are lots of problems still obviously *but in general women in China are quite equal to men.*"
From what you yourself say, women in china are not quite equal to men. There's ways to acknowledge progress that's been made without literally saying women are quite equal to men. It was a very patriarchal society, it's gotten less so but it's still unequal.
Here is a another article, apparently many government jobs openly state they prefer male candidates. Here is a key line from the article: "Nearly a fifth of postings for national civil service jobs listed a requirement or preference for male candidates; a trend repeated in advertisements for prestigious positions in other industries too, according to a 2018 Human Rights Watch report." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/29/china-women-still-b...
Great, so progress has been made, but letting a claim like "but in general women in China are quite equal to men" go unchallenged seems just wrong given how unequal women are still being treated.
And to be fair, the united states has some serious issues with regards to gender equality too.
> given the unprecedented feats that go on there, I really don't feel confident anyone in the West understands why.
Oh, we do.
1. Chinese society is extremely competitive and hard working, and that work is cheaper to harness due to 996 and similar trends. It's no wonder they have more man-years to spend on developing.
2. They could copy a lot of Western technology due to outsourcing, a trend that only being reconsidered as of a few years ago. Because of that, they have the baseline of production lines, IP, and expert/process engineering knowledge. If they know how to replicate tech, they know how to improve it.
3. Their society is less squeamish about surveillance tech. I will speculate that this is part of the reason why they are better at AI and telecommunications: these areas are ones you want to have a really good grip on if you want to control the population. In a related point, I think that their military may be why they have more expertise in building affordable drones, because that accumulated knowledge trickles down.
4. The Chinese government is free of humanitarian considerations. This enables them to harness resources that the West is not keen on touching for fear of condemnation.
I don’t think a lot of these characterisations are fair.
Chinese culture does elevate hard work, I think that could be a factor. 996 is a thing, but I’m not sure it exists across the entire workforce, it’s more a tech workforce culture, even then not ubiquitous.
The copying trope is frustrating to keep seeing. Who did they copy the space station off? It’s just not true at all.
Your point on privacy sounds closer to the truth. Culturally they view privacy differently to say American culture. I think this is more related to Chinese historically have always been socially/community minded, America by contrast has championed the individual.
The humanitarian point is pure propaganda. The west does not fear condemnation… they literally invaded and occupied two countries, and committed war crimes in them (see Australia’s SAS involvement). Modern day Chinas closest resemblance to that is it’s forced take over off Hong Kong (20 years after it’s hand over, but it promised 50). It’s just not even in the same league of humanitarian breaches as “the west”
The humanitarian point is problematic, I will admit, but Chinese humanitarian violations are much more dangerous.
They seek to set a precedent for an Orwellian nightmare across the whole world. As a citizen of an ex-communist country (who was thankfully born after that era), I am keenly aware of how dangerous an extensive surveillance, censorship and propaganda network can be. They stifle thought, and in China's case, I am afraid that this time it will work. They have the track record. The West (or let's face it, those keen to join in with the US militarily - and not all of the West participates) might have killed people, but China wants to kill independent thought. This is the one principle that I consider near-sacred. Without our free will*, what are we as a species? I know my view is extreme, but China is doing nothing to reassure the West that it's not actually planning on doing that.
I did not mean to suggest that they are merely copying, on the contrary. My point is that they bootstrapped their own understanding and manufacturing of the technology, and then took it much further and in a different direction to the West. It's not a bad thing as such. It just means that they got the Western "tech tree" (for lack of a non-video game analogy), recognised the value of what they are holding, then made it their own and did honest work to build upon it. The same likely happened with the space station. Even if the current one is more Russian than Chinese in its design, you can be sure that this ratio will rapidly shrink in favour of Chinese designs and expertise.
* Yes, I know there are debates about whether it's actually free. I'm talking about the apparent effect.
I don’t think they are trying to kill free thought. I’d agree they severely limit any anti-ccp or anti-establishment but the level of innovation happening in China is strong evidence that “free thought” is encouraged.
Is Fox News, or the news media in general not just as much a threat to free thinking as an actual “propaganda department”.
1. China's industrialization was and is powered by a staggering number of poor people searching for a better life. See also: Japan's industrial rise.
2. The government in China is extremely strong and centralized. The top officials want something, the lower officials do it. And since every Chinese business is a government business, any long-lasting Chinese company does what the government wants. So, the government can actually try to direct the country of China, compared to the USA for which conflict is the main point of the government and therefore centralized institutions (various companies, the military) emerge as the main powers.
3. China has a culture of ingratiating themselves (through feeding, using relatives, outright bribery) to people who can give them what they want. Apparently (I don't have a source), corruption can actually increase production because it greases wheels that were rusted by bureaucracy.
I should also note that since China is the world's production center, they have all the manufacturing chains, so if you want to make something in China it is very easy compared to many other countries.
With regards to regulation: IIRC, China has fewer regulations than America, but they are more "restrictive" (e.g. can't criticize the government), though citation needed.
This generally seems like western media talking points rather than facts.
1. All businesses are not state run or directed.
2. Your characterisation of Guanxi (relationships) is kind of the western negative interpretation of them. America has lobbyists literally bribing politicians… sorry I mean campaign donations.
I’m not sure any of the above describe why China is pushing so far out in front in technology and development… it is more a list of things the west tries to tell itself so they don’t have to confront the fact that they are potentially being outpaced.
1. Most/all businesses above a certain size are state run or directed.
2. Sorry if it came off that way. It's just that in my personal experience, China is much more dependent on this kind of ingratiation compared to America. (e.g. I've never had to give the people who reviewed my college application gifts to increase my chance of admission or anything like that.)
From what I can see, the reason China is pulling out ahead is basically:
- they have a humongous population, with a fair portion in poverty, giving easy access to productivity gains by lifting them out of it
- they possess probably a majority of the industrial complex of the world
- they have a reasonably competent government
All of which breed technological development. You probably have different insights though.
(Also, things like patent and technology copying, etc. probably help.)
Funny how this information is timidly reported by western medias. In France, where I live, it was pretty down on the homepage of Le Monde, a famous newspaper. Launches to the ISS seem more promoted.
Edit: it’s the first article on the BBC so it might be relevant only to French medias.
My impression of German media I read (FAZ, SPON, Welt, taz and a regional paper) is that nothing positive is being reported that is linked to China. I have the feeling that negative articles are highlighted and very visible (and receive many anti-China comments) while positive articles do not exist at all - and if they published, then there is little interest and only a few comments.
The biggest positive article in the last months was their landing on Mars. However, it received only very little attention. On "Welt" it was bombarded with anti-Chinese comments and then the comment section was closed.
I wonder why I realise this phenomenon. Perhaps it is my Confirmation Bias?
The article on the Dutch public broadcaster is extremely neutral and more detailed than I anticipated [1].
Not sure how Russia is related to the Chinese space program, but the coverage of Russian critics is pretty well done, I would say. Not enough maybe.
It goes without saying there can be very little good to report on the Russian government, but let's please not reduce the largest European country to their leadership.
I included zhe Russians because the approach seems equivalent.
Somehow, the average Dutch anonymous website commenter thinks Putin is an evil dictator who must be punished at all costs and the Chinese are performing a literal holocaust while their citizens have an awful unfree life.
Those claims are well-supported by evidence. If you would like to dispute that evidence, go ahead.
But if that sort of news is all you read about China and Russia, you seem to be clicking only on the political headlines. Plenty other news is covered from those countries.
The media in most European countries do not have the resources to do independent reporting on China nor Russia, and thus relies a few usually American news outlets. I have notice how one often can find articles, where you can see on the language it has been translated line from line from an English source.
The invasion of Ukraine and assassination attempts of its own citizens in the EU didn’t help.
It’s hard to hide spycraft these days, and the daily satellite updates showing Chinese expansion into contested territory is the main news story for those countries being impacted.
The Dutch article on the public broadcasters website I link below spends a paragraph on the crew composition and their previous history in the program.
Perhaps Le Monde isn't quite so representative as you appear to think it is?
The Chinese space program doesn't get a lot of press, but much like the country itself, they've made stunning progress in a short period of time. It's 18 years from their first manned space flight, and here they are successfully building a modular space station, returning samples from the Moon and landing a rover on Mars. They're experimenting with a SpaceX-style reusable rocket, a Mars sample return mission and are planning to land a man on the Moon by the end of the decade, and unlike NASA's plans, they appear serious about it too.
It gets a ton of press in the United States. Mars mission, manned launches, and other achievements have been featured prominently by the national broadcasters, the New York Times, and Internet outlets. A few years back there was a movie in which a Chinese space station was featured (based on a Russian template, which figured into the story).
What these reports don't have are details. And that's not surprising, because the Chinese government doesn't share many details about its space program, or give any access to media outside of China.
That used to be the case, but is not so much anymore: for example, Reuters filmed the launch today live. Wenchang spaceport, on China's Hawaii-equivalent island of Hainan, which you can even visit visa-free in pre-COVID times, has become a major Cape Canaveral-style space tourism destination with rocket watchers gathering for launch picnics, streaming live, etc. Today's launch was from the other major spaceport at Jiuquan though, which is the middle of nowhere deep in the Gobi Desert.
That said, the Chinese space program has deep military roots and every Chinese astronaut to date is an air force pilot, so we're not going to see NASA-style transparency anytime soon.
I think being an air force pilot is a suitable background for becoming an astronaut. Possibly even a better background than being a billionaire in a mid-life crisis.
Not to downplay their success too much, but doing those things in the 2020s, while still expensive and difficult, is not nearly as expensive and difficult as doing them in the 1990s.
And given their propensity for stealing Western IP, would anyone be surprised to learn some of China’s progress is thanks to groundwork laid by Western space companies and agencies?
Not really, they signed a bunch of deals with Russia to legally import their IP wholesale. For example, the Shenzhou spaceship flown today is a direct descendant of the venerable Soviet Soyuz. (Which is still being flown to the ISS as well.)
I know it's easy to think "cheap Chinese copy fnarr fnarr", but so far they have a perfect track record for human spaceflight (and no, even the CCP couldn't cover up a space accident).
Probably everyone know “ standing on the shoulders of giants”. Every new discovery is based on knowledge acquired from previous discoveries. What is achieved by USA is also standing on the work of previous great civilizations. Indeed all the knowledge USA today have is built on top of knowledge brought in by those immigrants from their respective society, culture and place.
China is not the only country trying space missions. European Union, Japan, South Korea and India has also been trying for years. Besides Russia, USA now China is 3rd country to successfully launch a space station and then take crew to it, despite the sanctions and constant blocking of technology transfer (indeed forgetting the basic tenet of standing on the shoulders of giants).
It’s a big achievement for China given they were blocked from ISS and need to re-invent the wheels. Hopefully they will be able to show same innovation and operational capability in space as they have shown in fast speed bullet trains.
Personally I hope that humanity can come together to have more collaborations on space, given it will be the only hope if something happens to Earth.
Docking of spacecraft with crew is a win for science and another feather in understanding space. Congratulations to all the scientists and people involved in this project, they deserve an applause for the this feat.
Operation Titan Rain also comes to mind. It was so long ago that hardly anyone knows or talks about the massive IP theft happening late 90s and early 2000s.
Probably everyone know “ standing on the shoulders of giants”. Every new discovery is based on knowledge acquired from previous discoveries.
What is achieved by USA is also standing on the work of previous great civilizations.
Indeed all the knowledge USA today have, is built on top of knowledge brought in by immigrants from their respective society, culture and place.
China is not the only country trying space missions. European Union, Japan, South Korea and India has also been trying for years. Besides Russia, USA now China is 3rd country to successfully launch a space station and then take crew to it, despite the sanctions and constant blocking of technology transfer (indeed forgetting the basic tenet of standing on the shoulders of giants).
It’s a big achievement for China given they were blocked from ISS and need to re-invent the wheels. Hopefully they will be able to show same innovation and operational capability in space as they have shown in fast speed bullet trains.
Personally I hope that humanity can come together to have more collaborations on space, given it will be the only hope if something happens to Earth.
Docking of spacecraft with crew is a win for science and another feather in understanding space. Congratulations to all the scientists and people involved in this project, they deserve an applause for the this feat.
Please don't abuse the phrase "standing on the shoulders of giants." It's the difference between riffing off a work of art to produce something novel versus plagiarism. What China does is the latter, not the former. It's not "standing on the shoulders of giants."
And in this case it's worse: China's government is engaged in a genocide and empire building at least as bad as any colonial power in the West, and likely worse due to its extremely oppressive, authoritarian nature. Their achievements are not only built on theft of others' hard work, but on the backs of the oppressed people that have guns pointed at their heads.
> Personally I hope that humanity can come together to have more collaborations on space, given it will be the only hope if something happens to Earth.
I do, too. But China isn't going to contribute to that: they'd rather let others do the hard work and then steal it. It's not a bad strategy in some respects. But it's not respectable or good in any meaningful sense as it applies to a shared endeavor such as you describe.
Nice, comparing Chinese "genocide" - roughly similar in shape to what the West calls "youth penitentiary prisons" - to actual crimes, ranging from Guantanamo to continued oppression of racial minorities.
There is a clear strong negative bias towards China in your comment and lack of understanding with “standing on the shoulders of giants”.
You can read all about rockets, still it will be hard to build one. Very few companies and countries are able to do space missions, even with the availability of all the know how. India took two decades to build cryogenic engines based on the Russian design and specifications, called CE-7.5 (and variants with minor changes). It helped them build CE-20 later and it’s still hard and they are working on it.
So may be for once just keep your bias on side and be able to acknowledge the achievements based on science.
The term youre looking for is copying without authorization, to steal IP requires that the original intellectual good be removed from its proprietor, which, short of a "Men In Black" style brainalyzer, is simply not possible
I trust that in order to preserve and strengthen the incentive structure around the creation of novel intellectual goods, such a device should be technologically within reach within the next 20 years, and hopefully the world's IP lobbies will be granted special powers to compel the use of such devices in cases where individuals find themselves coming into possession of protected intellectual goods without authorization
In answer to your question though, no, I do not think anyone would be surprised if some of China's progress is thanks to the groundwork laid by Western space companies and agencies.
Meh, we had a space station pretty shortly after our first manned flights and so did Russia and that's when this stuff was new. Going to space is impressive but this isn't unique or anything.
They have made a lot of progress quickly. By comparison, Russia went from first manned space flight to a space station in 10 years, and the U.S. did the same in 11 years.
It should also be noted that the Shenzhou spacecraft is a licensed copy of the Soyuz with some updates.
The Chinese space station core module Tianhe is likewise a licensed, updated copy of the Russian International Space Station core module Zvezda.
Congratulations, I wish them success. Hopefully this spurs on everyone else and we can get a second space race. I think it is important we become a multi planet species as a long term survival strategy.
Important to note that the "new" space station is a rehash of an old Russian design. They paid for substantial Russian design and material science expertise.
I think there is innovation here. For example: the core module uses 4 ion thrusters to maintain the station in orbit. This reduces the amount of propellant and re-supply mission needed. Fuel resupply is major cost to running a space station.
https://futurism.com/chinas-new-space-station-powered-ion-th...
The core module's solar panels produces 100kw of power while being a lot smaller than the one on the ISS. Though granted this is because of advancements in tech after the ISS is built.
A good engineering design is one that completes the stated goals and balances costs, complexity.
The ISS is an amazing feet of engineering. It explored many aspects of the previously unknown areas of permeant presence in space. It is also grand in imagination and design.
But for Chinese space agency, they need to keep in mind of their constraints, schedules, resources and capability. For one, ISS could be built the way it is because the US has the space shuttle. The space shuttle propels the modules to its target. But China only have rockets, and each module must navigate and propel themselves to the space station. They will have solar panels, thrusters, control. At that point, by simply dock each modules together you already have a space station.
Design a core module. The inner space is astronauts living quarters. The outer shell contains thrusters, electrical, life support and power systems. Put docking ports at the two ends of the cylinder. This is just a straight forward design that works.
China's space program's goal for the space station is 1: able to run a long term permeant space presence 2: support research needs in space. So they figured have three astronauts, dock two modules for laboratories, dock 1 cargo ship, 2 manned ship is all they need at this moment. And they can design one core module that does all this. Then all you need is have 3 rockets launches for the heavy modules, a few cargo and manned mission. As all of the docking is automatic, you don't need a lot of human involvement and assembly from outer space. You get a working space station built at a very low effort.
This design can be expanded in the future if there is need. They can sent another core module, have it dock at the front port, and now you get another 2 dock ports for modules and space for 3 more astronauts. They are also planning to sent a space telescope. Have it nearby the station. Detach from the station during observation to reduce vibration. Dock with the station for repairs or other tasks.
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[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 181 ms ] threadThis article has some : https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57504052
There's a drawing of what it will look like when "complete", but no indication of what it currently consists of (and it's still an artist's rendering).
Would be interested in actual current photos.
How is it the US trusts Russia but not China in this regard?
Good on China for pushing ahead and developing their own space program and their own space station.
The cold war with the one is over and won, and the cold war with the other one is just now spinning up
This can't be the correct explanation since the China exclusion is not recent.
Is anyone still investigating who started that Bloomberg fake news that kick-started the entire 5G/Huawei conspiracy ? I mean there was no proof that anything weird is happening so I am still wondering if there was a government Agency or some rich dudes that started this.
American FDI in China even under the last administration went up, and both the EU and the US were busy signing free trade deals with China. I don't remember Apple building computers in the Soviet Union. Follow the money, not the news headlines. There's going to be no second cold war because there is no ideological competition and China is deeply integrated in just about every value chain on the planet.
Without Russia, the ISS launches you.
Errr, I mean : without the Russians, it would be impossible to operate the ISS.
Today they would not be involved. In fact Russia has said that they will leave in 2025.
We should expect a lot more impressive things coming out of China.
China built 22,000 miles of high-speed rail in 15 years, for example.
AI, semiconductors, electric vehicles will be significant for them over the coming decade
I really wanted to write a post about this showing differences in regulation - but couldn't because the Chinese regulatory approach is too opaque to me.
There seems to be remarkably little information on what the facts on the ground are. And given the rumoured Chinese programs of influencing foreign universities I do think it is questionable which channels of information are reliable vs tainted by their propaganda.
Western media pick all the authoritarian measures CCP did or is doing and blow them up and make them all about China.
They ignored many things Chinese government (here most westerners or media couldn't tell the difference between Chinese administrative government and CCP and thought they were the same thing), and Chinese people did right in the past decades.
I often say China today has been built on three things:
1. Equality between men and women. China did very well in this. There are lots of problems still obviously but in general women in China are quite equal to men. China has the most self-made female billionaires, maybe more than the rest of the world's combined.
2. Unleashed entrepreneurship. No need to say much about it here.
3. A very solid education system together with Han Chinese tradition of valuing education. Nine years of free and compulsory education for the entire nation before high school and many options for next level education.
Quick googles shows this: https://chinapower.csis.org/china-gender-inequality/
And why is the gender ratio so skewed? Gender selection of babies. That doesn't signal equality.
I am surprised people didn't know there was a women's movement. If you look at the movement just by itself, the transformation of women's standing in the society and culture before and after is massive. Comparing across the global, it is still one of the largest transformations. But prephas it is all buried in the ccp, communism, and mao, all that bad rep. What actually caused, triggered, happened in the Chinese revolution between 1930 to 1960s is never talked about, never being looked at objectively. Only those who lived through that history, personally experienced it, knew the good, the bad, the legit and craziness. The world is not black and white. Things always happen for a reason. Before my grandma passed away, she had a portrait of mao in her home. And talked fondly of what ccp meant to her and the changes it brought to her life.
Communism requires equality, there was no independent women’s movement. Your families experience as you described corroborates that.
To strengthen my point: how many women are in political leadership positions? People’s Congress looks very male heavy…100%? communism brought equal participation, but didn’t stop patriarchy.
It started at the end of Qing dynasty and continued with up and downs until Chiang's China. You are also right too that communism naturally calls for equality between man and woman.
During the ccp revolution between 1940 to 1950s, women joined the ccp, and pushed for women liberation. They campaigned for no more feet binding, no more arranged marriages, the right to learn how to read and knowledge, women should do whatever men can do, become industrialized factory workers, soldiers, no longer confined to their traditional female roles. That was Chinese women's equal rights social movement. No less significant then women movements elsewhere. The saying was "women can hold half of the sky". ccp's leaders started the messaging, it resonated with the people, and then people reinforced that messaging. This is how the political movement had strength and kept alive. You have to understand ccp's revolution became a wide scale revolution because the political goals matched with people's desires. People voted with their feet. My grandma joined the ccp as well. She campaigned and learned how to read from her activities with the ccp.
My grandparents had 5 kids, 2 girls. My grandma was always a strong supporter of the girls, encouraged them to be strong and independent, telling them to chase big dreams and do want their hearts tell them to do. My grandpa not so much. He sided with the boys much more. Like the vast majority of Chinese families before 1990s, the family was resource constraint. They could only afford to eat meat during big holidays. My grandpa would try to give the boys better pieces of the meat to eat. Same thing with cloths.
重男轻女(preferences for boys) is Chinese culture and custom issue. Its people's thinking, its the culture, not desire or mandate of the government. The government didn't tell the people to have only boys and not girls. Its the people who did that. If you want the official and legal stance, since 1950, Chinese constitution says "women enjoys same political, economic, cultural, social rights as men". Marriage law says "Both parties must be at will, no third party shall interfere". So technically, my grandpa's action of favoring boys is against the constitution. Before the 90s, there were still places that practiced arranged marriages, technically its also illegal. You could say it the government's fault for not enforcing the laws. The reality is preferences for boys is ingrained. And if the government enforces bans on practices like arranged marriage, people say its destroying traditional culture, limiting cultural freedoms.
I think the government was trying to change people's mentality and culture on gender. One of the important action was making education mandatory. This forced parents to give girls and boys both education, regardless of the social economic status of the family. And when I was going through Chinese school, we were all taught on respecting each other. Text books have many stories about heroines, women liberation, equality etc. My classes treat everyone the same, everything was based on merits. Girls did well on grades, and the teachers would tell the guys "shame, look at the girls". Many class reps were girls. At least I view girls with utmost respect. And the common saying goes "In front of women, the women is always right"
I think for the young genera...
From what you yourself say, women in china are not quite equal to men. There's ways to acknowledge progress that's been made without literally saying women are quite equal to men. It was a very patriarchal society, it's gotten less so but it's still unequal.
Here is a another article, apparently many government jobs openly state they prefer male candidates. Here is a key line from the article: "Nearly a fifth of postings for national civil service jobs listed a requirement or preference for male candidates; a trend repeated in advertisements for prestigious positions in other industries too, according to a 2018 Human Rights Watch report." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/29/china-women-still-b...
Great, so progress has been made, but letting a claim like "but in general women in China are quite equal to men" go unchallenged seems just wrong given how unequal women are still being treated.
And to be fair, the united states has some serious issues with regards to gender equality too.
https://www.ted.com/talks/yasheng_huang_does_democracy_stifl...
as evidenced by gender ratio in 0-14 and 15-24 brackets https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_sex_ratio
Oh, we do.
1. Chinese society is extremely competitive and hard working, and that work is cheaper to harness due to 996 and similar trends. It's no wonder they have more man-years to spend on developing.
2. They could copy a lot of Western technology due to outsourcing, a trend that only being reconsidered as of a few years ago. Because of that, they have the baseline of production lines, IP, and expert/process engineering knowledge. If they know how to replicate tech, they know how to improve it.
3. Their society is less squeamish about surveillance tech. I will speculate that this is part of the reason why they are better at AI and telecommunications: these areas are ones you want to have a really good grip on if you want to control the population. In a related point, I think that their military may be why they have more expertise in building affordable drones, because that accumulated knowledge trickles down.
4. The Chinese government is free of humanitarian considerations. This enables them to harness resources that the West is not keen on touching for fear of condemnation.
Chinese culture does elevate hard work, I think that could be a factor. 996 is a thing, but I’m not sure it exists across the entire workforce, it’s more a tech workforce culture, even then not ubiquitous.
The copying trope is frustrating to keep seeing. Who did they copy the space station off? It’s just not true at all.
Your point on privacy sounds closer to the truth. Culturally they view privacy differently to say American culture. I think this is more related to Chinese historically have always been socially/community minded, America by contrast has championed the individual.
The humanitarian point is pure propaganda. The west does not fear condemnation… they literally invaded and occupied two countries, and committed war crimes in them (see Australia’s SAS involvement). Modern day Chinas closest resemblance to that is it’s forced take over off Hong Kong (20 years after it’s hand over, but it promised 50). It’s just not even in the same league of humanitarian breaches as “the west”
They seek to set a precedent for an Orwellian nightmare across the whole world. As a citizen of an ex-communist country (who was thankfully born after that era), I am keenly aware of how dangerous an extensive surveillance, censorship and propaganda network can be. They stifle thought, and in China's case, I am afraid that this time it will work. They have the track record. The West (or let's face it, those keen to join in with the US militarily - and not all of the West participates) might have killed people, but China wants to kill independent thought. This is the one principle that I consider near-sacred. Without our free will*, what are we as a species? I know my view is extreme, but China is doing nothing to reassure the West that it's not actually planning on doing that.
I did not mean to suggest that they are merely copying, on the contrary. My point is that they bootstrapped their own understanding and manufacturing of the technology, and then took it much further and in a different direction to the West. It's not a bad thing as such. It just means that they got the Western "tech tree" (for lack of a non-video game analogy), recognised the value of what they are holding, then made it their own and did honest work to build upon it. The same likely happened with the space station. Even if the current one is more Russian than Chinese in its design, you can be sure that this ratio will rapidly shrink in favour of Chinese designs and expertise.
* Yes, I know there are debates about whether it's actually free. I'm talking about the apparent effect.
Is Fox News, or the news media in general not just as much a threat to free thinking as an actual “propaganda department”.
2. The government in China is extremely strong and centralized. The top officials want something, the lower officials do it. And since every Chinese business is a government business, any long-lasting Chinese company does what the government wants. So, the government can actually try to direct the country of China, compared to the USA for which conflict is the main point of the government and therefore centralized institutions (various companies, the military) emerge as the main powers.
3. China has a culture of ingratiating themselves (through feeding, using relatives, outright bribery) to people who can give them what they want. Apparently (I don't have a source), corruption can actually increase production because it greases wheels that were rusted by bureaucracy.
I should also note that since China is the world's production center, they have all the manufacturing chains, so if you want to make something in China it is very easy compared to many other countries.
With regards to regulation: IIRC, China has fewer regulations than America, but they are more "restrictive" (e.g. can't criticize the government), though citation needed.
1. All businesses are not state run or directed.
2. Your characterisation of Guanxi (relationships) is kind of the western negative interpretation of them. America has lobbyists literally bribing politicians… sorry I mean campaign donations.
I’m not sure any of the above describe why China is pushing so far out in front in technology and development… it is more a list of things the west tries to tell itself so they don’t have to confront the fact that they are potentially being outpaced.
2. Sorry if it came off that way. It's just that in my personal experience, China is much more dependent on this kind of ingratiation compared to America. (e.g. I've never had to give the people who reviewed my college application gifts to increase my chance of admission or anything like that.)
From what I can see, the reason China is pulling out ahead is basically:
- they have a humongous population, with a fair portion in poverty, giving easy access to productivity gains by lifting them out of it
- they possess probably a majority of the industrial complex of the world
- they have a reasonably competent government
All of which breed technological development. You probably have different insights though.
(Also, things like patent and technology copying, etc. probably help.)
Edit: it’s the first article on the BBC so it might be relevant only to French medias.
The biggest positive article in the last months was their landing on Mars. However, it received only very little attention. On "Welt" it was bombarded with anti-Chinese comments and then the comment section was closed.
I wonder why I realise this phenomenon. Perhaps it is my Confirmation Bias?
Just wanted to share those thoughts with you.
What surprises me the most as a child from the 80ies is how Russia has been resurrected as public enemy #1.
Not sure how Russia is related to the Chinese space program, but the coverage of Russian critics is pretty well done, I would say. Not enough maybe.
It goes without saying there can be very little good to report on the Russian government, but let's please not reduce the largest European country to their leadership.
[1] https://nos.nl/artikel/2385399-china-lanceert-taikonauten-na...
Somehow, the average Dutch anonymous website commenter thinks Putin is an evil dictator who must be punished at all costs and the Chinese are performing a literal holocaust while their citizens have an awful unfree life.
But if that sort of news is all you read about China and Russia, you seem to be clicking only on the political headlines. Plenty other news is covered from those countries.
It’s hard to hide spycraft these days, and the daily satellite updates showing Chinese expansion into contested territory is the main news story for those countries being impacted.
Perhaps Le Monde isn't quite so representative as you appear to think it is?
It's incredible luck it synchronized near perfectly with the 100 anniversary of the party "without which there would be no new China".
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-56617060
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/media/journalists-g...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_space_program (a mess of current and obsolete programs, but gives some idea of the breadth of their ambitions)
Things will get even more interesting next year if India launches their first manned spaceflight as planned.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaganyaan
What these reports don't have are details. And that's not surprising, because the Chinese government doesn't share many details about its space program, or give any access to media outside of China.
That said, the Chinese space program has deep military roots and every Chinese astronaut to date is an air force pilot, so we're not going to see NASA-style transparency anytime soon.
Is your implication that the American space programme somehow does not have deep military roots?
IIRC most early American astronauts were also military aviators - either air force or navy.
To what I ask "tell me ALL about your X-37 space plane."
Sigh.
And given their propensity for stealing Western IP, would anyone be surprised to learn some of China’s progress is thanks to groundwork laid by Western space companies and agencies?
I know it's easy to think "cheap Chinese copy fnarr fnarr", but so far they have a perfect track record for human spaceflight (and no, even the CCP couldn't cover up a space accident).
China is not the only country trying space missions. European Union, Japan, South Korea and India has also been trying for years. Besides Russia, USA now China is 3rd country to successfully launch a space station and then take crew to it, despite the sanctions and constant blocking of technology transfer (indeed forgetting the basic tenet of standing on the shoulders of giants).
It’s a big achievement for China given they were blocked from ISS and need to re-invent the wheels. Hopefully they will be able to show same innovation and operational capability in space as they have shown in fast speed bullet trains.
Personally I hope that humanity can come together to have more collaborations on space, given it will be the only hope if something happens to Earth.
Docking of spacecraft with crew is a win for science and another feather in understanding space. Congratulations to all the scientists and people involved in this project, they deserve an applause for the this feat.
I agree with your first comment but just found your second one a little strange.
Indeed all the knowledge USA today have, is built on top of knowledge brought in by immigrants from their respective society, culture and place.
China is not the only country trying space missions. European Union, Japan, South Korea and India has also been trying for years. Besides Russia, USA now China is 3rd country to successfully launch a space station and then take crew to it, despite the sanctions and constant blocking of technology transfer (indeed forgetting the basic tenet of standing on the shoulders of giants).
It’s a big achievement for China given they were blocked from ISS and need to re-invent the wheels. Hopefully they will be able to show same innovation and operational capability in space as they have shown in fast speed bullet trains.
Personally I hope that humanity can come together to have more collaborations on space, given it will be the only hope if something happens to Earth.
Docking of spacecraft with crew is a win for science and another feather in understanding space. Congratulations to all the scientists and people involved in this project, they deserve an applause for the this feat.
And in this case it's worse: China's government is engaged in a genocide and empire building at least as bad as any colonial power in the West, and likely worse due to its extremely oppressive, authoritarian nature. Their achievements are not only built on theft of others' hard work, but on the backs of the oppressed people that have guns pointed at their heads.
> Personally I hope that humanity can come together to have more collaborations on space, given it will be the only hope if something happens to Earth.
I do, too. But China isn't going to contribute to that: they'd rather let others do the hard work and then steal it. It's not a bad strategy in some respects. But it's not respectable or good in any meaningful sense as it applies to a shared endeavor such as you describe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
Sorry based on your comment, it seems not.
There is a clear strong negative bias towards China in your comment and lack of understanding with “standing on the shoulders of giants”.
You can read all about rockets, still it will be hard to build one. Very few companies and countries are able to do space missions, even with the availability of all the know how. India took two decades to build cryogenic engines based on the Russian design and specifications, called CE-7.5 (and variants with minor changes). It helped them build CE-20 later and it’s still hard and they are working on it.
So may be for once just keep your bias on side and be able to acknowledge the achievements based on science.
The term youre looking for is copying without authorization, to steal IP requires that the original intellectual good be removed from its proprietor, which, short of a "Men In Black" style brainalyzer, is simply not possible
I trust that in order to preserve and strengthen the incentive structure around the creation of novel intellectual goods, such a device should be technologically within reach within the next 20 years, and hopefully the world's IP lobbies will be granted special powers to compel the use of such devices in cases where individuals find themselves coming into possession of protected intellectual goods without authorization
In answer to your question though, no, I do not think anyone would be surprised if some of China's progress is thanks to the groundwork laid by Western space companies and agencies.
It should also be noted that the Shenzhou spacecraft is a licensed copy of the Soyuz with some updates.
The Chinese space station core module Tianhe is likewise a licensed, updated copy of the Russian International Space Station core module Zvezda.
The core module's solar panels produces 100kw of power while being a lot smaller than the one on the ISS. Though granted this is because of advancements in tech after the ISS is built.
A good engineering design is one that completes the stated goals and balances costs, complexity.
The ISS is an amazing feet of engineering. It explored many aspects of the previously unknown areas of permeant presence in space. It is also grand in imagination and design.
But for Chinese space agency, they need to keep in mind of their constraints, schedules, resources and capability. For one, ISS could be built the way it is because the US has the space shuttle. The space shuttle propels the modules to its target. But China only have rockets, and each module must navigate and propel themselves to the space station. They will have solar panels, thrusters, control. At that point, by simply dock each modules together you already have a space station.
Design a core module. The inner space is astronauts living quarters. The outer shell contains thrusters, electrical, life support and power systems. Put docking ports at the two ends of the cylinder. This is just a straight forward design that works.
China's space program's goal for the space station is 1: able to run a long term permeant space presence 2: support research needs in space. So they figured have three astronauts, dock two modules for laboratories, dock 1 cargo ship, 2 manned ship is all they need at this moment. And they can design one core module that does all this. Then all you need is have 3 rockets launches for the heavy modules, a few cargo and manned mission. As all of the docking is automatic, you don't need a lot of human involvement and assembly from outer space. You get a working space station built at a very low effort.
This design can be expanded in the future if there is need. They can sent another core module, have it dock at the front port, and now you get another 2 dock ports for modules and space for 3 more astronauts. They are also planning to sent a space telescope. Have it nearby the station. Detach from the station during observation to reduce vibration. Dock with the station for repairs or other tasks.
Simply to boost national morale?