Central Asia… Apple being a relative of rose, a major wild plant all over from Kazhakistan, Altai Republic, Mongolia, etc… along with cannabis. You see these two plants just everywhere in the southern regions… I’ve also heard of likely Persian origin for many related fruits, such as peaches and apricots
The roman/latin name for peaches was malum persicum (persian apple). The romans got the fruit from the persians, but the persians themselves got it from central asia or china.
Slight correction - ‘ata’ means either father or grandfather (father of apples). The city was known to have a lot of apple trees in the surrounding mountains.
Not really. Kazakh word for "father" is "әке", and "-ата" is used as suffix, similar to Japanese "-san".
Which is not very relevant anyway, since the real name of the city in Kazakh was always "Almaty". It is surely derived from "alma" (which is Kazakh for "apple") but does not have a direct translation.
> real name of the city in Kazakh was always "Almaty"
Originally it used to be Alma Ata which then became Almatı. This kind of transformation is common in Turkic languages.
Ata does mean father or forefather or grandfather. It is also used in the sense of "ancestor" in a similar sense.
In that sense, it is like көке (köke) which is derived from the word "root". It is not used in Turkey like that, but any Turk would understand why it means "father".
> Originally it used to be Alma Ata which then became Almatı.
Depends on what you mean by "originally" ;)
The modern city was founded in 1854 when the Russians established the military fortification of Zailiyskoye (renamed Verny in 1855) on the site of the ancient settlement of Almaty, which had been destroyed by the Mongols in the 13th century.
In Soviet time (1921) the city was indeed renamed to "Alma-Ata", but only in Russian, in Kazakh the name became "Almaty". In 1993, the government renamed the city from the Russian "Alma-Ata" to the Kazakh name "Almaty".
In any case, it is kind of incorrect to translate "Alma-Ata" from Kazakh, because this name was never used in that language.
But even saying “the Kazak name ‘Almaty’” is still not correct because it gives the impression that the final sound is like an English -y, like happy. For those who know Cyrillic it is still inaccurate because the Cyrillic -y sounds like an English -oo. The only way to really show “the Kazak name” is to use Cyrillic, or their LtR script: Алматы, or الماتى. That final sound is more like an English -uh.
Actually, "Almaty" is the correct Kazakh spelling of the name - if using the latest 2021 revision of new alphabet, to be officially used starting 2023, replacing current Cyrillic one (in which the spelling is "Алматы", by the way).
You're using the Soviet bastardization of the name. The original Kazakh name (Almaty, which has been used through the whole history of the city) has nothing to do with apples or grandfathers.
> You're using the Soviet bastardization of the name.
I am genuinely curious about how the name Alma Ata which consists of two Turkic words and which how I was taught in school when I was growing up in Turkey is the "Soviet bastardization".
Update: Hmmm ... Wikipedia article also seems to indicate that it was Soviet thing to call it Alma Ata:
> The name Almaty has its roots in the medieval settlement Almatu, that existed near the present-day city.[10] A disputed theory holds that the name is derived from the Kazakh word for 'apple' (алма), and is often translated as "full of apples". Originally it was Almatau which means Apple Mountain. The Russian version of the name was Alma-Ata (Kaz. Father of Apples). Since gaining its independence from the Soviet Union, the use of the Kazakh Almaty is accepted.
> Here in the UK, apples are very well respected and appreciated.
I've an anecdote about that. I worked at an orchard and I was surprised that we picked apples while they were still green. They were a variety that would golden when ripe, I believe. Anyway, I later learned that those were apples meant to be sent to UK (orchard was in France) and that in UK there's a large market for unripened apples (large green ones). I always thought it silly.
apples with a crisp texture, when cooked, often have a rubbery texture. This is frequently desireable for various pastries because they hold their shape, but generally a mealy apple which softens when cooked is preferred for an apple pie or simple baked apple.
Those apples sound like "Golden Delicious" which I believe we in the UK import from France.
"I always thought it silly" - fair enough but these are very complex things when you look deeply.
At the point of pick, the apple is now a self contained thing. It contains all sorts of chemicals, cells, structures and so on, contained within the skin. If you wax the skin then you might inhibit oxidation for a while (tends to make the flesh brown and sweeter) but the added wax means the skin is now not nice. Let's leave waxing for lemons.
Temperature will affect most reactions but too cold will destroy fragile tissues, so let's keep things at roughly fridge temperature, so around 5degC.
An apple is a very complex beast, sorry: fruit. There are sugars and an extremely complex cell structure to maintain. The thick skin will keep things stable for a short while but it's not enough.
So you pick it unripe and delay those processes a bit.
Slow transportation in the early-mid 20th century. They were durable and could survive long journeys and extended storage. Then they became the "default" apple and it took a long time for people to realize what they were suffering with. I remember the sad state of affairs as late as the 90s, when our choices were Red Delicious, Macintosh, and Granny Smith. Sad times.
I grew up in Washington State and remember eating a lot of Gala, Braeburn, and Fuji apples in that time period; I think those are all pretty good apples to eat "out of hand" (compared to what you list for sure; a granny smith is great in a pie though!). Yeah, some of the tasty varieties like Cameo, Honeycrisp, etc, etc, weren't really widely available until quite a bit later, even if they were discovered in the 80s/90s.
You are right: durability and surviving extended stays in "cold storage" was a big factor.
I love fresh broccoli, but as a Canuck, the closest I can get in the winter is often shipped from Mexico, or further away.
While not a different variety like the apples you mention, the result is the same. Dull, flavourless, unpalatable. So much so that I seem to eat much more broccoli in the summer, especially when locally grown, and bought day of pick.
Recently, I realised that fat accumulated also stores vitamins, etc, which is why animal fat is so nutritious. For example, people with an excess intake of some vitamins, can have issues getting those levels down, if it has been going on long enough to accumulate in their fat stores.
My point here is, I have found myself, yearly, gaining some weight at the end of summer, early fall. Not a lot, 10 lbs isn't much when 6'2". But it is interesting to me, for I do love the taste of summer's bounty, and that includes fresh, local apples.
The taste I think is not just the texture, flavour, but also the body detecting the enhanced nutritional content.
The body knows 'this is good', and thus I think wants to store excess nutrition in fat to see through the winter.
Anyhow, yes... love those local, freshly picked apples.
You were fortunate to live in Washington. The cultivars you listed are the first that I saw appear widely in the late 90s. I suspect we have you local consumers to thank for popularizing them.
There are and were many more choices available in North Germany, produced in the vast plantation area known as Altes Land. Also, for extensive cultivation in your own backyard, seeds and young trees for old/traditional varieties are available in abundance, and I'd imagine that to be the case in UK as well.
There are a number of different texts. According some rabbinical traditions it was a pomegranate, but according to the Book of Enoch and other intertestamental texts it was "like a species of tamarind tree". I'm not aware of any tradition that calls it an apple tree, although this may have been the case in some medieval paintings.
Yep, it's an artistic tradition. A lot of traditional/medieval depictions of biblical stuff draw on greco-roman art.
Angels/Cherubim are depicted as winged babies in art, kind of like Cupid. The way they're described in text is totally different. Six wings and four faces, each of a different animal. Biblical angels and creatures were more like of Egyptian or Babylonian deities (eg sphinxes) than how we usually draw them. Scary mashups of different animals.
If you are ever in the area it's well worth going up to the big Almaty lake with a local and driving down and sampling the wide variety of wild apples on the road down to the city.
32 comments
[ 5.9 ms ] story [ 77.5 ms ] threadWhich is not very relevant anyway, since the real name of the city in Kazakh was always "Almaty". It is surely derived from "alma" (which is Kazakh for "apple") but does not have a direct translation.
Originally it used to be Alma Ata which then became Almatı. This kind of transformation is common in Turkic languages.
Ata does mean father or forefather or grandfather. It is also used in the sense of "ancestor" in a similar sense.
In that sense, it is like көке (köke) which is derived from the word "root". It is not used in Turkey like that, but any Turk would understand why it means "father".
Depends on what you mean by "originally" ;)
The modern city was founded in 1854 when the Russians established the military fortification of Zailiyskoye (renamed Verny in 1855) on the site of the ancient settlement of Almaty, which had been destroyed by the Mongols in the 13th century.
In Soviet time (1921) the city was indeed renamed to "Alma-Ata", but only in Russian, in Kazakh the name became "Almaty". In 1993, the government renamed the city from the Russian "Alma-Ata" to the Kazakh name "Almaty".
In any case, it is kind of incorrect to translate "Alma-Ata" from Kazakh, because this name was never used in that language.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_alphabets
There's little doubt that the name comes from the word apple.
I am genuinely curious about how the name Alma Ata which consists of two Turkic words and which how I was taught in school when I was growing up in Turkey is the "Soviet bastardization".
Update: Hmmm ... Wikipedia article also seems to indicate that it was Soviet thing to call it Alma Ata:
> The name Almaty has its roots in the medieval settlement Almatu, that existed near the present-day city.[10] A disputed theory holds that the name is derived from the Kazakh word for 'apple' (алма), and is often translated as "full of apples". Originally it was Almatau which means Apple Mountain. The Russian version of the name was Alma-Ata (Kaz. Father of Apples). Since gaining its independence from the Soviet Union, the use of the Kazakh Almaty is accepted.
Here in the UK, apples are very well respected and appreciated. Our apple pies and crumbles are close to legendary and we make a decent stab at cider.
I live in Somerset. The cider here isn't too bad.
I've an anecdote about that. I worked at an orchard and I was surprised that we picked apples while they were still green. They were a variety that would golden when ripe, I believe. Anyway, I later learned that those were apples meant to be sent to UK (orchard was in France) and that in UK there's a large market for unripened apples (large green ones). I always thought it silly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granny_Smith
"The apple goes from being completely green to turning yellow when overripe."
"I always thought it silly" - fair enough but these are very complex things when you look deeply.
At the point of pick, the apple is now a self contained thing. It contains all sorts of chemicals, cells, structures and so on, contained within the skin. If you wax the skin then you might inhibit oxidation for a while (tends to make the flesh brown and sweeter) but the added wax means the skin is now not nice. Let's leave waxing for lemons.
Temperature will affect most reactions but too cold will destroy fragile tissues, so let's keep things at roughly fridge temperature, so around 5degC.
An apple is a very complex beast, sorry: fruit. There are sugars and an extremely complex cell structure to maintain. The thick skin will keep things stable for a short while but it's not enough.
So you pick it unripe and delay those processes a bit.
You are right: durability and surviving extended stays in "cold storage" was a big factor.
While not a different variety like the apples you mention, the result is the same. Dull, flavourless, unpalatable. So much so that I seem to eat much more broccoli in the summer, especially when locally grown, and bought day of pick.
Recently, I realised that fat accumulated also stores vitamins, etc, which is why animal fat is so nutritious. For example, people with an excess intake of some vitamins, can have issues getting those levels down, if it has been going on long enough to accumulate in their fat stores.
My point here is, I have found myself, yearly, gaining some weight at the end of summer, early fall. Not a lot, 10 lbs isn't much when 6'2". But it is interesting to me, for I do love the taste of summer's bounty, and that includes fresh, local apples.
The taste I think is not just the texture, flavour, but also the body detecting the enhanced nutritional content.
The body knows 'this is good', and thus I think wants to store excess nutrition in fat to see through the winter.
Anyhow, yes... love those local, freshly picked apples.
Angels/Cherubim are depicted as winged babies in art, kind of like Cupid. The way they're described in text is totally different. Six wings and four faces, each of a different animal. Biblical angels and creatures were more like of Egyptian or Babylonian deities (eg sphinxes) than how we usually draw them. Scary mashups of different animals.