Ask HN: Words of encouragement for someone lost in life?
Having spent a good proportion of the last decade in programming and mathematics - a time which brought me many joyful moments - I've also spent a significant amount of time, maybe even reaching the zenith in the past months, being very depressed, lonely, socially anxious; all are obvious hindrances in life.
For some inexplicable reason, a short circuit in my brain lead me to believe that creating a Tinder account might be a countermeasure for not feeling lonely anymore.
Seeing in the profile pictures what "normal", "well-rounded" people in my age are doing on Tinder, such as traveling, spending time with friends, etc., made my pain even worse, let alone the fact that I received zero matches. Feeling like a social outcast, and having an even stronger urge now in taking my own life - a decision I contemplated many times - ... I just feel very lost in life. I know that I'm a complete failure in life.
Over the years I've gotten to know this community quite well. I know that I'm probably not alone in dealing with these problems.
My hope is that, as so often, you people might have an insight, an idea, words of wisdom, or anecdotal experience in trying to rationalize my current feelings and situation. Thank you.
258 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 252 ms ] thread(If you want to understand the hard problems of human existence, read literature. The royal road to that is to read a literature review, which that book almost is. Pro Tip: If you want to get somebody to do something, get them to read about it.)
It might be more relevant for the needs of middle aged people who are interested in their cohort. (right about now they feel boxed in by the last 40 years of choices they have made and if you can take down the gate they might knock you down on the way out -- it's frightening how easy it is).
Most young people want a lifetime mate (eventually) and that’s a much bigger ask.
King David summarizes this very succinctly in his own way: "Though my father and mother forsake me, the Lord will receive me."
The whole of Psalm 27 is very encouraging I think: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2027&vers...
I generally do it at the same time of day, though sometimes I make an exception and do it earlier or later, when I feel that my presence elsewhere is important for good.
I developed it after several years of studying several different meditation traditions, attending churches, and reading religious texts.
Ideally, I do this in a quiet room, sitting by myself, but that is not always possible, and I do not demand it. It can be done internally without altering anything in the physical.
For prayer, I tend towards a three-step process of gratitude-forgiveness-petition. First, I express gratitude for all my gifts and privilege throughout the day that I can think of.
Second, I ask for forgiveness for anything regretful... Missing out on acknowledging someone. Laziness in performing a necessary task. Allowing myself to ruminate or think negatively.
Then, it is time for requests. I ask for guidance and to see clearly into my intentions to ensure that they are joyful and good. And then I express them the best I can, being mindful to not be too specific, nor too attached to any particular outcome, because I cannot see the big picture.
After this, comes the other important part. Listening for a reply. Our existence is infinitely more complex than our language and human-human interaction allows, and so it may be hard to understand or even see the message. After all, you are taking on the role of an ant asking for help from a human, except infinitely more removed from each other. It is not always peaceful, sometimes it is overwhelming and I cry.
All this knowledge repeats again and again in texts both old and new, and if you allow yourself to consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, people who lived more than 100 years ago were not complete buffoons and idiots, it can bring peace, joy, satisfaction, amazement, marvel... Even that feeling of "time slipping away faster every day" will recede. Take it from me, I was depressed through and through for a good 15-20 years straight almost without respite.
Good luck, and I'd love to hear your experiences.
May this knowledge help you and bring you joy!
Here are things to consider doing
- drastically reduce the amount of time you spend behind a screen (even immediately throw away a lot of math/science/etc paraphernalia)
- join a regular gym
- start lifting weights
- join a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu gym
- sincerely evaluate your style of dress (do you give off a feminine-milquetoast or masculine vibe) visit Reddit, etc for ideas
- if you are a gamer, immediately stop
- sign up for volunteering / toastmasters / improv class / races / all varieties of dancing / meetups / doordash / Uber driver (point being, meet more people, put yourself out there way more)
You must learn to love yourself. It's a difficult road but it's arguably the most important one you'll ever take.
Hard disagree there. Yes, gaming can be addicting, but that is also the case with basically all habits. If you easily get addicted to games, then I would suggest sticking to shorter single-player games.
I would add reading (fiction or non-programming books) and traveling to the list of things to spend more time and money on.
On the positive side, it can sometimes provide people with a needed social outlet, at least if it's an online social game.
It can also sometimes stimulate a mind that's depressed and lethargic, giving it a much needed jump-start so to speak which carries over into other productive tasks.
Conversely, it can get you addicted to and dependent on quick and easy dopamine hits, killing your ability to focus for extended durations needed for any kind of productive work. It can also cause mental fatigue that makes committing to or completing non-trivial tasks difficult or impossible.
Gamers have to be aware of both effects, and honest with themselves about which are occurring, and willing to change their behavior if they observe the negative ones.
And I /second reading and traveling as better uses of time and money.
20 "Gaming is fun but it isn't improving my reality."
30 "Improving my reality doesn't feel fun at all."
40 GOTO 10
This cycle was all too real for me. But like you said it is neither positive or negative. It depends entirely on the individual.
I think the best way to sum up the very negative aspects of gaming is their fake progress. To use the 4 quadrant model, gaming usually belongs in the not-important quadrant with mostly not-urgent. But most game environments create their own 4 quadrant sub world. The issue then appears because those urgent and important and the various combinations thereof then mess with the real reward systems. The game world is temporarily real enough due to immersion so it becomes real. Your real reward systems light up and take action: More! Do this! So you do.
So the game gives your brain all sorts of these varied set ups where the quadrants apply and you have to prioritise. You make successful decisions and your reward systems kick in. The game says, "here is a problem that exists". You solve it and your brain, unable to really tell the difference says "ok we need to do more of that". So it allocates resources to improve. And you do.
But its all fake. Fake progress. Fake accomplishments. Because its all fake, the reward centers get messed up. You know its fake. But your brain isn't great at really knowing fully that its fake. Regardless, you're now spending resources solving the game instead of the real world. The rewards become twisted as weak form punishments. Every time you realise that in the real world you arent progressing as much as you could you are effectively punished again.
None of this says you cannot play games or that they are not helpful. But like all escapes, its important to not close the door back to reality. Otherwise they become prisons.
I’ve scaled back on that quite a bit and it ofc just got replaced with items I compared it to in the prior paragraph. I still play games sometimes though, mostly because it’s a good way to keep in touch with some of my siblings who scattered across the country.
People can definitely fall into the intellectual pit. They then abuse intellectual pursuits to distance themselves from reality. Fake challenges, fake problems, fake solutions, fake progress. If they later reconnect with reality, they discover they can use their intellect and physicality to solve real problems for real people. Along the way they connect to those real people and the very much broader reality in general. Often resulting in interesting stories to tell as well.
None of this is actually anti-intellectual or anti-programming.
Are you making a value judgment on which style is right and wrong?
Pretending that anyone can just do anything and be anything, including undesirable, and be perfectly happy and fulfilled, is just a cope.
To all the young men out there in particular... live up to your potential, man. You're only going to be in your 20s once. You don't want to spend it all waddling around in cargo shorts with messy hair. Lose the weight, lift some barbells, eat more protein, buy a Seiko, iron your work shirt, layer your clothes, try a skincare routine, and look as good as you possibly can. You'll become more confident, and people love confidence, so you'll be even more liked.
First, I do think there’s value to much of what you’re saying.
With that said, if time spent writing code is becoming an escapist activity, and if one is escaping from sufficiently dark demons, consider speaking with a therapist as well.
I realize this will not apply to all readers, but the trouble with this advice starts if there is depression involved. “Just be more positive”, “Just stop doing the things that currently make you feel safe and a bit more ok”.
Until you address the root cause, it’s going to be difficult to implement these changes effectively.
And if you do, you might find a happy medium (I’m getting closer every day), where programming or gaming is just a thing I love (and continue to do), and not something I have to use to escape.
I had a friend who hatred coding again, but got a job doing we dev for a vegan charity and that was it, he was back in the room since animal welfare was a major passion of his.
Find what it is you love (or at least like) and a job that will give you at least a small portion of that.
Throw away your nerdy shit, get ripped in the gym, learn martial arts and dress well.
All that’s fine if that’s what you want but I don’t think it’s particularly aspirational for everyone. Even if elements like regular exercise and broadened activities are pretty universal good advice.
It’s also of it’s time and reading this feels like a lot of the advice givers are quite a bit older. The generation in their early twenties have different social mores and aspirations.
And hard as it may be to learn even ripped dudes that are snappy dressers can be depressed and can feel stuck in life.
As for exercise, not everyone needs to get "ripped", but some exercise is likely to benefit everyone - from better cardiovascular health, to just feeling like you have more energy, as well as getting to a more healthy weight. Admittedly, that's why I've been jogging 3km every day for the last month in addition to strength training, and while I felt horrible the first week, things are better now.
Some of the other advice ends up being a tad too drastic, though.
Stopping doing science/maths probably isn't good idea - maybe just slightly decrease the amount of time you spend on them instead?
The amount of time spent gaming should also be controlled, but quitting "cold turkey" could be harmful. For some people it's a way to cope with bad situations or socialize - take away that escapism and you'll be left dealing with all of the other bad aspects of life with no outlet.
Martial arts and joining social groups all seem like good idea, but for the more introverted folks it might actually make them feel worse. Maybe try going to a few meetups at first instead?
As for Tinder and social media - those might lead to you comparing yourself to others too much, which often isn't entirely healthy. Also, dating apps in general don't work for many guys due to societal factors.
A big upside about hobbies, especially if one focus a lot on it, is that one is likely to meet others who is enthusiastic in the same thing.
The kind of person who has strong feelings about their sense of style (for example dressing more feminine) already has achieved a kind of center or "normal" for their personality that the person who posted this lacks.
Doesn't seem negative to you?
And what's exactly dressing "femininely" or "masculinely"? That's rubbish.
Like every other so-called "loser in life," you just need to get laid. The options for incels in the US are slim, but if you can scrounge up the thousand or so dollars for airfare and hotel to South America or Asia, you'll find plenty of pay-for-play action with stunning beauties. Have fun, and don't let some antiquated religious taboo stop you from a very natural transaction.
I honestly think this is a strong biological cheat around depression that is a great jumping off point for many people.
Not everything in life needs to be gamified and you can make an "app" to track gym/life progress yourself with just excell/google sheets to track progressive overload/your measures and your phone to see visual changes in your body.
It's a grass is always greener on the other side thing, looking at other people's lives.
It's also disgusting that these apps take advantage of vulnerable young men desperate for connection by up-selling them on an endlessly growing list of paid add-ons that supposedly increase your odds of finding a partner (Boosts, Super Likes, Plus, Super Boost, Plus, Gold, Platinum, it never ends). Unfortunately, society at large does not really care that much about young men's mental health as much, so you won't see the media covering this predatory behavior targeting men.
IMO dating apps are probably doing more harm than good to young men in general, I think you're going to have to find ways to socialize in person. Maybe Meetups (the site/app) but don't just stick to coding stuff, branch out.
Also, I heard Tinder is like 70%+ male. Tinder is just not a good app for average guys.
Actually I know even above average guys (handsome, jacked, top 5-10% income) who don't have as much success as you might think (they can get women, but they have to jump through a lot of hoops just to get a woman who is quite frankly below their level, objectively speaking. To the point they question if it's even worth doing the dancing monkey routine.) They usually find women are far more receptive IRL compared to on the dating apps.
We're not alone buddy, many men are experiencing the same frustrations with the humiliating/degrading jester routine of online dating, it's just that men suffer in silence in this society so it doesn't get talked about a lot. Online dating is filled with a lot of BS games like this, especially for men.
https://overcast.fm/+P0dZxP_w
The Tinder game is so horrible, 5% of the women get the attention of 80% of the men or more, leaving both the men and women in the other group feeling like there is something wrong with them. People feel the need to edit themselves in order to fit the false narrative created by these gamified dating scenarios, or else experience the fear of dying alone.
There is nothing wrong with you.
Our complicated, 3-dimensional, deep, personalities and lives are not meant to be reduced to a catalog, best consumed on the toilet, dismissed or accepted instantly based upon a false presentation designed to harness the evolutionary biology of actual living beings.
For money.
This is not constrained to human society. There is an amusing anecdote of the Australian Jewel Beetle that also experiences the Tinder Effect. This nearly caused their extinction. I encourage you to watch Donald Hoffman's 2015 TED Talk "Do we see reality as it is?"[0] linked below for your convenience. I've timestamped the relevant section, skip forward about 100 seconds or so for the direct discussion of the Australian jewel beetle.
[0] - https://youtu.be/oYp5XuGYqqY?t=349
While most of the talk is great, he just handwaves the idea that reality is not "brains and neurons," nor what physicists try to model, but he makes no effort in explaining what's the difference between "reality" and "physics."
It would be great if someone who understood that last part could explain it.
Consider Emmanuel Kant's Rose Colored glasses for a moment before dismissing Hoffman's ideas outright. This idea has been brushed against before, I find it very interesting and supplies a lot of fertile earth to till.
If you would like to engage further, I recommend Curt Jaimungal's multi-hour conversation with Dr. Hoffman on his podcast "Theories of Everything".
The link to his youtube video of the discussion is here, it's available on the podcast RSS feeds too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmieNQH7Q4w
People (generalizing here) are attracted to happy, engaged, healthy people. Attractiveness markers are health markers. If you find yourself with an internal voice telling you you are bad or wrong or not good enough, may I humbly suggest adopting this mantra in their place: "I can become good at anything."
because you can.
My assumption from the outside is that Tinder is a hookup site, and that you’re not going to meet anyone worth dating there anyway. I’d suggest volunteering with orgs which look to be supported by young members, business groups targeted towards “young professionals”, etc. I’d look for groups that either have regular members or encourage some kind of repeat involvement, so that you have time to meet people and make friends naturally. Lastly, I think it’s important to join such groups with the intent on having fun.
I wish you all the best. I promise you that there are others out there who are also trying to make friends and find someone special.
Personally I avoid bars, but it is indeed fine when approached with appropriate caution (as would be rock climbing gyms, for example, which are a stellar choice btw)
It’s also ironic that I’ve climbed a lot and never found anyone to date let alone that I get on with as well.
In bar scenarios, you are both moving around and maybe a bit uninbibited, exhibiting relaxed body language, talking and engaging in some courtship behaviors. You can see how people interact in the real world.
Swiping left or right as you contemlate the causes of hemorrhoids is so far divorced from this normal behavior, and there is no bar algorithm beseeching you to "super like" a curated, mostly fake dating profile chosen not for your future engagement ring, but as a sales tactic to drive "engagement". Buying someone a drink is only superficially similar to internet (paid) likes.
It isn't impossible for it to work fine, but Tinder sucks for society.
In my case, when I first got serious about dealing with unbearable loneliness, I went down very dark path of gurus and pickup artists, who basically advocated doing things just for hooking up. I did end up trying a lot of things but not all activities were that interesting to me. It took a long time for me to realize what really interested me and I focused on only those activities which actually made me connect with people at deeper level. However, I was not feeling lonely anymore, so I am not sure if I would have figured out what really interested me if I was still lonely.
I suggest to start off, try a lot of different activities, until you find something that you truly enjoy. Here are a few suggestions,
Outdoors free yoga classes - not indoors. In my experience, people are friendly in outdoors classes but most women don't want to talk to anyone. So don't ruin it by forcing conversation. If anything, make some new guy friends.
Rock climbing - hate to suggest it as rock climbing community is very friendly and don't want it to get ruined by people joining it just for hookups. It is also very good mental and physical exercise.
Dog - Volunteer to take your friends' dogs to dog parks, especially if there is one with good social scene. Girls will start conversations with you. If you do enjoy taking care of a dog, adopt one or start volunteering at your local shelter.
Running - Running is one sports where women outnumber men. Join a local running group. But any sports club would do, crossfit gyms maybe another option.
Of those 250 matches, I didn’t message half. These were people with almost nothing in their profile who I also didn’t find particularly attractive. Half the people I did message didn’t respond back or ghosted after a few messages
So about 60 short to medium conversations. In the majority of those, it was clear that they weren’t particularly interested in dating or were on the app for an ego boost(or perhaps I wasn’t attractive enough for them)
I was able to get about a dozen numbers, out of which a third ghosted me and a third got ghosted by me. I dated 2 people casually and met 1 woman that caused me to delete the app, and I have been with her for 1.5 years.
If I had to start over again, I reckon the odds of me finding a relationship is very very low. The LTR started after the girl messaged me first( which happened like 1% of the time) but it was obvious she was attracted and interested in meeting. But I count myself very lucky that happened. I would likely be single if I didn’t match with her.
TL;DR: Tinder is a huge crapshoot even if you’re getting matches
Most of the time, social networks tend to hurt self esteem. That applies to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Tinder, Reddit, and even HN to a certain extent (seeing FANG devs can make you feel inadequate). Moderation is key, but if you're having trouble moderating yourself, just get off and get into the real world. People are much better there in my experience. Meeting people in person can be tricky, but that's a whole extra layer of complexity.
There's a stigma around mental health, but I would highly suggest going to a therapist/psychiatrist. That might be mild depression.
How much of what you are doing in life is driven by societal conditioning? How much of the loneliness is caused by social custom having convinced you that should not be alone?
There's no easy answers out there, but the first steps usually start with casting off societal expectations and learning to love yourself for who you are and explore what you want to explore in life.
And don't kill yourself. At 23 the world is your god damned oyster even if it doesn't look like it. Your back probably hasn't even gotten achey yet.
There was a study done by one of the large dating sites that showed 20% of male profiles get 80% of the matches.
Now, this skewed proportion does not obviously reflect real life. On dating apps a carefully curated, often fake persona can do well.
Personally I find dating apps in general to not be good places to find a partner at all. Ive had much more luck meeting women in the workplace or school etc.
@OP Easier said than done, but try not to make too much out of this. I think the recommendation for doing some activities with others is a good idea.
> Now, this skewed proportion does not obviously reflect real life.
I'd argue that it's exactly the same in real life.
> Personally I find dating apps in general to not be good places to find a partner at all.
Let's not forget that Tinder isn't about meeting a partner.
2) Forget Tinder, and other social media too. It's just something to make you feel bad looking at the rest of the world's highlight reel.
3) You're not yet 23. You haven't failed at life, because—frankly—you haven't had a chance to live any of it yet.
4) Get off screens and go outside. Go for a walk near trees in the sun.
5) If you've got friends, ask to spend time with them. Doesn't matter what activity.
6) If you're short on friends, start making some new ones through shared activities. Sports, hobby classes, fellow dog owners at the dog park, whatever works best for you.
7) Get your sleep, diet, and exercise in order. These are foundational to feeling good and doing well at anything else over the long term. Ignore them at your peril.
The good news: Probably most people have a rough early 20s, it might be the hardest time in life. You are waking up to the fact that the world has no rules, and even “success” is something you will have to define for yourself. It’s a lot to deal with, but you will get better at dealing with it, I promise.
The really good news is that it will never be too late to make friends, and they don’t have to be the same age anymore so the “friend pool” is way bigger. Treat this like an opportunity - you can try anything you feel like trying, most people will not care that you are a beginner, and most activities will come with a community of like-minded people you can befriend.
Don’t expect to figure everything out right away, but just get out of your comfort zone and interact with the world for now. Physical activity is best if possible, exercise is as close to a guaranteed treatment for depression as anything. This is not medical advice, but: “A tired dog is a happy dog.”
Life is much more than brain. It's also heart, and creating your story. (You don't want someone else doing that.) Finding friends means getting away from the keyboard, the books. IME, the fact that an algorithm found zero matches is kind of funny. Code doesn't know life exists. Often in life our bestest mates are -unlike us-. Usually smarter in other ways too.
Inspiration? Meh. If it comes, it comes. Whaddya got to prove? Life only has one deadline. Lots of people take a stretch before pressing on. Read about E.B. White yesterday. Bucky Fuller the day before that.
Travel. The world is HUGE. Wish I'd done more of that. You may find a culture you can relate to more. There are always people to know, everywhere - give them a chance. Seek and ye shall find.
Best of luck and hang on! So many times I've felt like "a complete failure in life", (and who knows, maybe I am!), but I keep trying!
I've lost a few friends to suicide and can tell you they all had so much potential, and they all put too much emphasis on their failures and didn't have a realistic idea of how much they made the world a better place—even when they were "failing"—because they were trying something new and making mistakes and exploring some of the design space of our universe. If you are feeling so down, I bet you have taken chances in life that didn't pan out, and I thank you, because we need people like you to push the world in new directions. Don't feel bad about any shortcomings you've had. Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want. Sometimes you just need to hang on, let your body and mind catch it's breadth, and you will come back better than ever.
> words of wisdom
After 37 years, I don't think anyone knows anything about anything.
Figuring out what you want is a process and takes time (https://breckyunits.com/what-i-want.html).
I'm a big believer in wearables. Things like FitBits and Levels CGM. So much of our mental moods are tied to what is going on in our bodies. The best psychiatrists in the world will be replaced by $200 of wearables within 20 years.
My life didn't start until I was 34.
The only regrets I have in life were the times I wasn't kind. (Note: by kind I don't mean nice—I've found being part asshole/competitive on the field to be important to do good work).
> "normal"
I've never found trying to be normal to be a stable place for me. You might find that what is important to you is not important to 99.9% of people. So you may need to meet a lot of people before you build up a big enough tribe. Finding constructive subreddits for my interests was helpful for me.
The world needs you! You sound like the type whose big wins will be in the long term!
What was the big move? Little did I know it back then, but the solution has many parallels with non-convex optimization: I got the heck out of the local minimum I was stuck in life - moved continents, changed careers, changed the people in my life, changed the culture around me.
Concretely, I went to grad school abroad and settled there. It took adjusting and lots of work, but I now make multiples of my previous salary, dated beautiful women I never would have in my local culture and had a choice of awesome people to become my close friends.
You might be stuck in a local minimum too - starting anew can be good for you if you manage to do it. Maybe you won't even need to go to a new continent, but the lesson is, make big changes!
If you found yourself at a house party and you found a particular room annoying, depressing, boring, etc, you'd go find a different room. Change the scenery.
Trying something new like moving to a new city or country is certainly an option. But another surprisingly low effort way to achieve something similar is to pick up a new hobby, start working out and eating right, etc.
I personally found myself in a terrible rutt in my mid twenties. I couldn't imagine a future where things were better.
I decided to get into shape, which gave me a huge boost in confidence and outlook. I decided to read some books on topics I was always curious about and realized how little I knew about the world around me. I really tried to broaden my perspective and at the same time, develop an idea for who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do with life.
But it all starts with deciding to make that change.
There's so much out there, and OP's current situation is an infinitely small slice of what life has to offer.
Everyone is different and I think you should focus on what makes you happy rather than comparing yourself with random stranger on tinder.
Personally, if I were you, I'd join a meetup and try to meet other people sharing my interests. It's also a great way to meet a partner (through friends of friends).
There is so much wrong with this statement, in the context of OPs post that I don't know were to start.
The irony of this statement with regards to OP is astounding.
The good news is that you're very young, and have so much time ahead of you still. You just have to have to from now on go all in into making yourself a better, more interesting person to other people, so you can make some friends, get laid and all the rest.
Go to the gym, get a nice body. Practice some sports. Read non-technical books. Get a dog, take it to the park. Go to a club, hit on some chicks, hear a lot of no's. Make some friends, develop some social skills. Learn to dress well, shower daily, get a nice haircut, invest in beauty products. Travel, even if alone. Make some money.
Forget what you can't change about yourself and focus on what you can. Just my two cents.
I think this is valid, but objectively there are so many people who do this and everything else orders of magnitude better. This is what makes me sad, personally. And "just going to the gym", imho, isn't terribly useful advice - I think even CICO isn't realistic for a lot of people. I try starving myself often but I never have the willpower :(
Who cares about what the average person on Tinder is up to? Nobody has actually outcasted you, but you may feel different from others because you are - learn to be proud of thinking different and being an outlier. You are not lost, probably bored. There's no such thing as failing life because there is no test. Keep programming and doing what you love. Keep playing the numbers game of Tinder, maybe you will get matched soon with someone who will enjoy listening to you talk about your passion. No matter what you do, don't give up. If you were ready to take your life, why not instead do something bold, spontaneous, exciting? Enjoy the life given to you.