Ask HN: Is Your Job Ethical?

It's a shame that computer science doesn't have any kind of board of ethics like engineering does, or any expectations other than privacy laws. How come engineers have to be PEs but we don't have any kind of equivalent for programmers?

I have a scientific academic job with teaching responsibilities. I am disappointed about reproducibility of some work, I definitely think people need to release their code, I think machine learning in particular has lots of issues. But on the whole I would consider what I do reasonably ethical. I can try to influence others into good practice.

Yes

Honestly I don't think my current job is ethical. Up until a few months back it seemed to be doing fine, but changing priorities resulted in it crossing quite a few lines. Basically the organization has gone in the direction of developing dangerous/toxic assets which may be fine in how their products are currently being used, but the underlying technology can be misused quite easily. With new management there's much more of a profit motive where I could see tech getting applied to use cases which would actively harm people. I wouldn't be surprised if within a few years the company is acquired, so there will be even less control on how data and technology gets used in the future (despite what management may claim). I'm certainly not inspired by the regularity of proposals of implementing unethical ideas.

When I was able to see the direction that the company was shifting I gave a heads up to other coworkers on the project, started job hunting, and informed management that due to their choices I refused to work on anything associated with one of their products. I half expected them to say "no, you have to work on X" at which point I would have resigned. Since then they've toed the line, but I am not assisting that particular product line in any meaningful capacity.

So, why am I still around? Job hunting is exhausting. I've seen good roles with a good fit and gotten no response, I've followed up on others and refused below-market rate pay-ranges, etc. I almost left a few months back for another role, but there was a lack of work/life separation in an otherwise very interesting position. Perhaps I'm being overly selective or perhaps the more ethical roles that appear to fit simply require more experience, but I plan on continuing to monitor what's out there.

Because I make more than I would in other fields, and I believe that more resources are required to establish stability and security for myself and those I care for.

Yes, my job is ethical.

Trucker. Yes. People have to eat and poop, they need their ... everything. Literally, everything.

I don't say this to be self-righteous - everyone has their own choices and decisions to make - but yes, in my software career I most certainly did not take projects that I felt were morally or ethically questionably. For me that meant refusing projects that I believed would physically harm people, cause economic or social hardship, or had any inkling of fraud.

I've since changed careers and I absolutely believe what I'm doing today is a net-positive for individuals and society, and in fact I'd say that it presents an opportunity to uphold and improve a societal ethical standard.

No, I hold a technical role in a blockchain/crypto-currency company. It is well-paid, and the company is well-funded, but I plan to quit soon. I am tired of the superiority complex and greed of people working in this field.

I’ve never worked for an ethical company. People are always good in the company though. It’s a very odd thing.

Hate to get all Hitler-ad-reductio, but I can imagine how Nazi Germany or the CCP can happen. It’s the same pattern in business across companies.

Current status: my job, yes, it's specifically about preventing badness. The company, generally yes, although there are some definite areas of concern.

This is something I've thought about on a regular basis; usually before I take a job, and again if the project changes. I have a couple of thoughts about this:

1. Finding software jobs right now if you have experience is like shooting fish in a barrel. If you have any question in your head that requires serious examination to tease apart whether it crosses the line into immorality, save yourself the time and energy and exercise the option to go elsewhere.

2. There are some projects that absolutely fall into the "will not work on" bucket for me. Weapons, payday loans, etc, anything that causes or benefits from human suffering, etc.

2. If you have the energy, I think joining an organization which has unethical fundamentals and trying to redirect it is a worthy goal, as long as you don't lie to yourself about how effective you're being, which I suspect will generally be "not at all".

3. I try to keep my buckets for "ethical" and "not ethical" reasonably clean. At some level, you can argue that any organization not primarily focused on fixing the issues with our societies is part of the problem, which pretty much limits you to non-profits and (in some parts of the world) government/healthcare organizations. That's fine if you're inclined that way, but making money selling products/services to consenting adults should not be seen as evil; I find this kind of perfectionist/puritanical thinking muddies the waters substantially.

4. I focus a lot on the people that I'm working with. I think that most projects that don't obviously fall in the "evil" bucket can be run ethically or unethically. In my experience, it's not that hard to pick out people who are fundamentally grifters, and if I see them in places of power in the organization/company, I'm looking at the door.

5. I did a lot of research before taking my current job to see what the complaints are about the company. It's a bit annoying because a lot of the CSR ratings are behind paywalls, but the information is out there.

Absolutely not. I work for Big Tobacco.

Pays well, most of my coworkers are C and D level of competence, management is clueless. Typical Fortune 500...

I think it all comes down to how you feel. Ethics are relative.

I can never willingly take work from a military institution because thinking of what they do gives me nausea – some people however feel of it as patriotism.

What I am saying is that if you feel guilty, that maybe a good signal to look for something else.

Yes. I couldn't wake up in the morning to do unethical things.

Yep mine is. I didn't seek it out for that reason though.. at least consciously.

Yes! You can seek out ethical work (and I do), but our industry does tend to treat moral scruples as a luxury that gets priced into your compensation. I.e., if you're not willing to work on certain kinds of projects or at certain kinds of companies, you will generally have to pay for the privilege through lower total compensation.

I'm developing software for industrial machines - those machines can be used to produce parts for defense applications on one hand or for civil products/research on the other, things that enrich and save lives (e.g. cheaper high-quality components for medical products) ...

It does not bother me that much to be honest - I've become cynical enough to believe that everybody refusing to work on something because it may feed into defense is a pipe dream. Our economies and professions are just too tightly coupled and can almost be turned on a dime to produce components for weapons - weapons aren't very complicated compared to many products we use in our lives.

I would be more bothered by working for a bank or insurance, training models for agriculture-trading or for a multinational company dodging taxes (I work at an SME), helping to build the systems that control lives.

I'd like to hear responses from those who work at big companies like Facebook. The media painted a picture that the company is putting no efforts on "managing" political divid or fighting misinformation. As researcher/engineer, I can see that FB/Google spend a lot of money in research in this area (I worked in this area for some time), but I have no clue how does this translate in practice and deploy it in production?. It's a borderline also when someone works in a company where it does make efforts to fight a problem, but it is not succeeding at solving the issue, and work for a company that avoid solving the problem.