It took over a year to get used to my standing-only desk.
Now I typically get over 12 hours of standing per day, and it definitely helps with my energy level. It seems to reduce the energy barrier of going to do something (with your feet).
I found similar outcomes. I just did some math and I am standing up nearly 14 hours per day. I eat all my meals standing up now too. The only time I sit down is when I am playing games, driving (rare these days), or getting ready to go to bed.
As mentioned by other comments in this thread, there are issues with standing completely still all day. I find myself shifting weight between my legs throughout the day, and finding occassional excuses to walk in circles or visit the whiteboard.
After a while you don't even process it as some sort of inconvenience. Sitting down actually drives me nuts now. It feels "wrong" for some reason. I have no trouble getting to sleep at night though.
Agree in regards to sitting feeling weird at some point. Work from home has been great because I can take meetings on my iPhone while walking and also do a lot of dictation…
I switched to a standing desk last year, a few months into work-from-home. Before I got it, I asked a friend who had been using a standing desk for advice. He suggested buying a foam mat to stand on. That seems to work well for me, too. (I work barefoot.)
I find that standing when working helps me concentrate better, though I make more typing mistakes because the position of my hands is different from what I had been used to. I didn’t have serious back problems before, but my back does feel better now that I am sitting less. I don’t stand up all day; I sit down occasionally to rest my legs.
Yes, it is interesting that there is a mental shift involved that took getting used to. Churchill famously worked standing up.
I think making sure all the physical/mental tools are available comfortably, e.g. multiple monitors, spend a lot of time on ergo considerations (you should be tiling your head slightly down when viewing content), gel rests for wrists for typing/mouse, padded gel floor mat to reduce foot stress and force more micro-muscle adjustments in your legs.
It takes getting used to, but now I can do the same sitting or standing.
This is very interesting. I have plantar fasciitis, and I've gotten to the point where walking long distances isn't painful anymore, but standing in one place for a long time is still agony. Seems counterintuitive, but now it makes a little more sense.
Long line at the grocery store? No thank you - I'll come back later.
I had plantar fasciitis on both feet for a very long time.
I solved it by constantly massaging my calves for about a month and a half. There are tools you can purchase on Amazon for it like the Stick, but gua sha, a spatula from your kitchen works just as well.
I also switch to shoes that don't have soles since soles weaken your muscles by causing them to atrophy.
I think my plantar fasciitis was inadvertently fixed by walking around my hardwood home barefoot for a year from WFH/covid. I'm almost never in shoes anymore.
Second working on the calves. Many massage the plantar itself, but the root cause is often tightness in the calves making the workload for the plantar f too high.
A second thin on the calves is using a "strassburg sock" during night. Keeps everything stretched, if one's one of those with initial pain in the morning because it has "settled" in a non flexed state.
Not sure if I agree on soles, though. Some people have feet that needs correction. Or at least that having used soles one's whole life, suddenly switching it up can lead to more harm than good. For me, finally getting a custom molded sole has solved a lot of issues I've been dealing with my whole life (wide foot, extreme arch).
(most of my pf knowledge is based on me and friends getting it from running, other causes might have other characteristics)
I had custom soles a long time of my life, which were super expensive and made it agonizingly difficult to buy matching shoes. A good physiotherapy treatment and a few simple stretching exercises that i do each evening have taken away all that along with fifteen years of knee and ankle plain.
Anecdote is not data but I'm 100% convinced that the soles made it worse for me, apart from the >10k spent on soles and shoes. I can go running again without pain!
I’m pretty sure I had plantar fasciitis as well (I was never professionally diagnosed), when I first got into wilderness backpacking and long strenuous hikes. I switched quickly and permanently to very light trail running shoes, and added some brief calf exercises to my gym warmups. Also haven’t had problems since.
For a few weeks, maybe 5-10 minutes a day, totally fixed it. It was pretty awful until then but it was amazing how quickly it cleared it up. I tried different styles of the roller but that style (rubber with small weird nub things) seems to work the best/most comfortable to use.
I ended up getting Dutch clogs (some are specially made for nurses and other people who stand all day) after having plantar fasciitis for a year and trying lots of different remedies. YMMV, but they helped cure me.
Theory: walking cycles muscles usage which cause blood to flow through veins(valve system) while standing tends to not help blood flow as much. This results in lactic acid buildup, less O2 to site, more CO2 buildup.
Yes, let's have whimsical music, long pauses, tangentially related side chit-chat, and re-enactment filling us on what it means "to walk" complete with walking sound effects.
Gotta love 90s radio. But... it's not the 90s anymore.
Hmm, I can't stand easily on same spot, my back begins to hurt as it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain straight posture. Mind you, if I keep moving I have no clue about the condition, I can hike hard for 12 hours straight for 2 weeks and be OK (well sore all over the body but not for this reason). I definitely wouldn't be able to work as some palace guard, standing straight all day.
Sitting is generally OK, but I always slouch if that's the proper term, my butt is way in front of where it should be, so I have more Formula 1 position. And I can be like that for hours without feeling any pain or major discomfort. Actually sitting straight is not comfortable after some time and I always slide down. Office worker for 17 years, prior to that school 17 years of school of +-same stuff.
Maybe some slight type of scoliosis that was never diagnosed, really don't know. Working out with free weights and climbing keeps me in check and can't complain much, not even during covid times when moving generally less. But if anybody has any clue/suggestion for improvement I would be eternally thankful.
I have the same symptoms as you; standing still, my lower back starts to ache after 30 minutes or so, but I can walk or run for miles and my back is fine.
My hamstrings are very tight from sitting all day, to the point that I cannot even bend 90 degrees at the waist with my back straight without discomfort in my hamstrings. I've assumed that tight hamstrings are the root cause to my back pain while standing, but I haven't fixed it yet.
The best results I've had in the past when I was more physically active were from doing "good-morning" exercises. I think it's because you build strength in the stretched position, which is important according to various books I've read like "relax into stretch" and articles on PNF stretching. When I was doing these exercises regularly I was able to put my forhead to my knees without doing any regular stretches.
Bending forwards ninety degrees with a straight back and legs is something most people can’t do without feeling a strong pull in their hamstrings.
I had the same back soreness after starting using a standing desk. I was also running every day and not doing other exercise (thanks lockdown). It didn’t seem to improve over time.
When it was allowed, I switched to going to the gym and only doing weights (squats, deadlifts, pull ups). After a couple of months the soreness just vanished, even after standing all day.
Note: please bear with my ignorance when it comes to anything medial.
I can walk for hours and miles, but standing for even short durations is unbearable for me, due to pain & discomfort in my back and shoulders.
I’ve got “diagnosed” with an underdeveloped trapezius (and several other muscles in the upper back region) and my head is ‘heavier’ than those can carry, at least according to my GP, who used to be a physiotherapist. I’ve tried working out, with focus on these areas, posture corrections and sheer will power, but eventually I’ll end up slouching and my posture goes back to the hunchback of Notre Dame, because it feels more natural and ironically comfortable.
Nearing my 30s I’ve grown more desperate and pushed and pushed specialists and eventually they found out I have ‘minor’ scoliosis. Surgery will need to be paid privately, as it’s mostly discomfort and comparably not a lot of pain, and is therefore not an option at the moment. I can live with it, but the fear grows that it will get worse with age.
For me standing still causes unpleasant tingling sensation in my feet which intensifies, eventually becoming unbearable stinging, until I move. I think it's low blood pressure causing CO2 accumulation or something?
Not a doctor, but I have/had similar problems, and saw a number of doctors and specialists about this.
Whatever it was, it wasn't understood by medical science, but the best thing we were able to pin it down to was "muscle spasms". Over time, I found that seeing a myofascial specialist, yoga, and physical therapy (read: Apple Fitness Plus) helped.
If you'd like to chat more about this topic or just pick my brain, my email is my username AT my username DOT org.
It makes sense when you think about the mechanics involved. Standing is constant stress in the same places. Walking is varying stress with alternating relief.
The Segway was a failure because they built up so much hype around it, but it was so pricey and the tech just wasn't there yet. Battery and motor tech has advanced so much since then. The original Segway had a max speed of 10 mph and a range of 6-10 miles. It cost $6000.
I mean you can just put a seat on a hoverboard, while playing the pedals like a piano... I think this study is not the end of hoverboards, lol. "Standing vs. sitting" is a pretty easy problem to fix when it comes to bikes, hoverboards, etc.
This is an interesting topic and I haven't considered it fully.
I have a standing desk and a really good ergonomic chair and every time I need to do extended work away from home (like in a vacation rental) it reminds me how important a good setup is.
What I'm now wondering about with all this talk about gravity and blood circulation - is anyone here using those 0 gravity setups where the screen is hanging above you and you are practically lying down ?
It seems like it would fix all the issues, have massive health benefits in the long run - if it actually works I could justify 5k$ but I don't have a chance to try it and I haven't heard about anyone using them. I suspect HN crowd is a good place to ask - anyone has info on how effective they actually are ? What are the downsides ? Is it just the cost ?
We spend 8+ hours 5+ days a week at the computer - I'm sure over a decade or two the investment would pay off if it prevents back pain, removes strain from your heart and keeps you more rested while working.
I’m skeptical. When I lay down and not think I fall asleep. If I have to think hard and work I’m pretty sure something is keeping me awake but I’m not sure if it’s good for my health.
I think similar thing happens to a degree when sitting.
I don't think this is fully lying down [1], looks more like dentist chair kind of a setup. My chair can almost recline that much and it feels weird looking up but I would probably get used to it so I'm not that skeptical it would work.
I just wonder if the benefits are there and if there are any drawbacks.
I'm hoping that the next generation of VR headsets will be good enough (mainly in terms of resolution) that I'll be able to use one for coding. Seems the majority of the $5k is just for the fancy hanging screen.
I think Linus Tech Tips looked at one of these, if it wasn't the same it was similar, it was very jiggly and seemed irritating.
I also thought that a Semi Circle chair which started at sitting position and over X hours each second, it shifted X of a degree until you finished lying down so there was constant change. No idea how that would work though.
Standing desk solved my back problems, but totally unhappy with all ergonomic chairs so far (Cheap-to-Herman Miller mainly). I kind of gave up burning money on them because it takes several weeks to get a feeling for a chair.
If anything, I think our largest (modern) collective societal health problem is that we do wayyyy to much trying to avoid straining the heart. For how much of human history were we not working mostly sedentary? It has a cost. The body is meant to be worked. It loses strength and stamina when it isn't. I don't think the answer is to do even less. Besides, do you know how many involuntary naps I'd take if I was laying down all day?
This is heavily contested, yes exercise is healthy but straining yourself regularly also has a cost. Most people either exercise really hard or not at all, I think what’s actually healthy is a moderate amount of exercise and the best type differs with age and occupation.
More importantly is having a variety of moderate exercise mixed in throughout the day.
Your lymph system relies on the movements of your skeletal muscles to push anything not water soluble through your body. This includes fats, various local inflammation signaling molecules, etc.
> When you feel sick don't stay in bed, go for walks, a large part of your immune system is passive and rely on muscle contraction to work optimally.
Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard this before and genuinely want to learn more about it. A cursory Google search didn't find anything related to this
And exercise kind too. Walking is actually a good example, it's surprisingly deep and integrated. When I was ill, it was the only thing that was soft yet deep enough to maintain my cardiovascular system flowing. Other activities like yoga play on the geometry to change your blood circulation without doing anything. Crawling makes a lot of muscles coordinate in ways other sports don't.
I thought it is often important to exercise stronger when you have been out of shape for a while. Then once you have core goals met, you can find your stride and sustain.
Not really, ideally you'd want to start with what feels good to do and learn to maintain that then slowly push it until you increase your activity and intensity. If you train hard all at once up front, it'll be harder to build the habit and learn to sustain it.
I don't know if heart working while sitting/standing to overcome other body parts not working to assist it like they would during and exercise is a good thing.
It's not really possible to understand human health without understanding Selye's General Adaption Syndrome and hormesis. In short, stressors that don't overcome an organism's ability to more or less maintain homeostasis cause adaptations that make that organism better suited to withstand similar stresses. Athletic training is a classic example of a stress that, if all goes well, results in improved fitness. But there is something called overtraining, which results when the athlete applies more of a training stress than his or her body can handle, and in that case one sees a rapid and even catastrophic[1] decrease in fitness.
Yes you could, because since you don't train regularly, going out for a 5k run could be very stressful. I've been there, when young 5k was, you could say easy, I could do it any day without warmup or specific training. But now, I can't run 5k without injuring myself. I need to prepare for several weeks before running 5k.
Well sounds like you should train regularly then :)
But overtraining isn’t just getting over exerted and having to rest for a few days or even weeks. It’s a very gnarly condition that’s ridiculously hard to get to. Most of us would mentally tap out long before.
It’s a lot like the difference between needing a break and being burned out. Getting tired and needing a break is normal, being burnt out is a serious condition.
I would guess it also depends on concentration. If you're at the gym exercising a specific muscle group, you could over-exert that muscle easier than generic overtraining while playing a sport.
This makes sense, but I believe it’s incorrect. Overtraining is a fairly serious condition that can take months to recover from, not generic over-exertion of a specific muscle group that requires days of rest.
I'm having similar issues but at the mental level. By studying too many topics at once i'm overloading my brain to the point of pain (unwillingly). Things have capacity.
> What I'm now wondering about with all this talk about gravity and blood circulation - is anyone here using those 0 gravity setups where the screen is hanging above you and you are practically lying down ?
I just put laptop on my bed, put a half-pumped sitting ball on the bed near the laptop and lie belly-down on it. About half the working time I just sit normally near my desk and the other half I change to this bed "setup". No back pains for over a year now (but I also started walking ~8 km a day so it probably helped too).
I've had issues with my back for most of my life. When I'm physically active (walking, resistance training, etc) and strengthen my core, I find that the problems subside to the point where I rarely hurt myself. It still happens but with much less frequency.
Posture and avoiding RSI-like outcomes helps too, but I genuinely think strengthening related muscle groups helps more. Not a doctor though, so take this opinion with an equivalently-sized grain of salt!
I sit on a wooden kitchen chair at a kitchen table. This is extremely uncomfortable, and thus forces me to get up and move around frequently. I saw this somewhere and really took it to heart: "the only bad posture is the one you spend too much time in."
I use a zero gravity. Specifically, MWE labs. Downsides were taking it apart to get it to my second floor home office. Upsides are comfort and not getting pain from working long hours. I've owned for over 2 years now. I don't use the zero gravity aspect of it a ton, though. It's still worth it in my opinion for the ability to make micro adjustments and overall ergonomics.
The most recent episode[1] of the Huberman Lab Podcast[0] talked about this briefly, in the context of alertness and focus:
...I haven't figured out yet how to develop a workstation where the computer is above me. I think the only way to really do that is actually to tilt one's body back, but actually that's not a good idea either. They have done studies recording from areas of the brain associated with alertness. Areas like locus coeruleus in the so-called reticular activating system. What they found is that depending on how reclined you are or upright you are, you will decrease with reclining and increase with sitting forward your levels of alertness. So body posture and whether or not your upright or reclining will impact your levels of alertness in the predictable ways. And where you position your eyes, whet her or not your eyes are upright, so to speak, looking up or directly forward or looking down, will dic tate whether or not you are feeling more alert or more sleepy, respectively. So try and arrange a work station or a position of your body in your chair or your standing desk, whatever it is, that allows you to work with a heightened state of alertness.
The best setup is an office where you set it up a bit like a gym. You have your basic standing desk, but also various weights and resistance bands and a pull-up bar close by. As you think about solving problems or throughout the day, you can play around with random exercises to keep your conscious mind occupied so your subconscious can focus better.
> is anyone here using those 0 gravity setups where the screen is hanging above you and you are practically lying down ?
Just the fact that people unirionically ask this question these days make me feel uneasy. Your body is literally screaming at your to move more, not less, listen to it.
Work in 30 min blocks and go for walks in between, anything other than "how can I become a passive typing machine which doesn't move a muscle for 8 hours straight" please.
There isn't enough money in the world to buy a setup that will get rid of these issues, just be active, that's all there is, if you know how to sit properly, take breaks and exercise regularly you could use a 5$ ikea stool and never have back/shoulder issues.
People want the magic pill to be healthy but focus on all the wrong things...
Going for walks every 30mins will leave you with very little accomplished at the end of the day. The idea is if you're to spend prolonged periods of time at a computer its possible a lying position is most optimal.
> Going for walks every 30mins will leave you with very little accomplished at the end of the day.
I care more about my health and long term well being than my company and the code I write. Walking 5 min every 30min won't kill your productivity, it might have the opposite effect actually.
I started exercising when I saw that most of my older peers in the field were fat/obese, had poor posture and no stamina whatsoever, these people are literally rotting day by day sitting in front of a computer
It seems so insane to me that some people internalised the idea that companies and productivity are the #1 priority in life, I can't even begin to wrap my head around that. As if selling your time wasn't enough, now you have to sell your body. Unless you live in some weird hellhole of a country without mandatory rest breaks laws I don't see why you would put yourself through sitting more than a few hours at once
This. Reading about 0 gravity setup immediately reminded me of the suspensors used by Vladimir Harkonnen in the Dune.
I have been using standing desk for a year, trying to switch sitting and standing frequently, in my case at least every hour. Why ? Firstly, my physiotherapist said her stance on the long term standing is negative since it can lead to imbalances - humans tend to put more weight on one feet, for instance. Secondly, there was a long article in local weekly magazine about sitting and standing, basically saying that the human body will adapt to whatever condition there is. For sitting, this means the muscles etc. will eventually "freeze"; the only way how to fight that is constantly subject the body to change in posture.
I spent a number of years behind a bar. Standing still and in place is indeed tiring. Pacing, with constant movement, is energizing in comparison. I still find pacing and walking to be relaxing even decades later...
In my opinion, it's because when standing we're engaging one set of muscles constantly. Whereas when walking we're contracting and extending different muscle groups in a cycle, therefore giving muscle groups short bouts of recovery.
Yup, most people have weak cores from poor posture and sitting down all the time. Standing up has to engage your core and keep it stable. Literally dealing with a pulled back because I haven't done core strength in months. The difference is incredible.
Try standing up for a few minutes, being mindful of what your body does.
You will probably find that you lean slightly from side to side or stagger very slightly, with your core having to be partly engaged all the time. Your feet are in the same spot, but your center of gravity shifts and the core is the only thing to counter that.
Meanwhile, when you walk, the momentum of your upper body takes care of a lot of this, you just automatically lean forward and your feet get under you, offloading a lot of that adjusting from your core. Your center of gravity moves predictably and your feet can "plan" to get right below it in the next step you take.
Interesting! I would think keeping torso upright while walking would be engaging more muscles compared to standing, but I never studied this in detail, so you might be right. But then it's interesting that I sometimes have sore back after a run if I don't run for a long time while I haven't experienced this when standing yet. Maybe my running form is poor.
When I first moved to a standing desk, I was shocked that I (fit and healthy) couldn’t stand straight at the desk for more than an hour or two.
Turns out I had what Dr YouTube said was an anterior pelvic twist (standing slouchy, belly out). Making myself stand upright was actually enough to give me an abs workout. I felt from standing the kind of “burn” you get after a load of crunches.
Even now, a year later, I still have to work up to doing more than ~3 hours standing if I don’t stand consistently.
So standing desks have a great for me. My one concern is that when tired or focused I subconsciously lean at weird angles and put pressure in the wrong places, but hopefully I move frequently enough.
Because you stand still to type. Standing desks work because you move on your feet. You can’t move and type at the same time and so standing desks fail for programmers.
Just as there's many ways of sitting there's many ways of standing. It's important to move around.
I'd recommend starting out with placing your weight more towards the front of your foot. I imagine my foot having three zones: heel, mid/arch and front. I try to stand as much as possible on mid/arch and front but move around every few minutes to train more muscles and promote an overall more active/front leaning posture.
Once you start doing this you will probably realize you have a strong tendency to stand on your heels which strains a lot of muscles and tendons imo it also promotes a less ideal posture.
I'm not really qualified to give such advice though so your mileage may vary. This is just stuff I've noticed and has worked for me.
I have a standing desk, but I walk in place as I have noticed it feels much better doing it like that. Only standing made me hurt after a while and it also took quite a bit of movement to get the pain away. When I walk in place 8-10 hours/day, I have none of these things.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 53.3 ms ] threadNow I typically get over 12 hours of standing per day, and it definitely helps with my energy level. It seems to reduce the energy barrier of going to do something (with your feet).
As mentioned by other comments in this thread, there are issues with standing completely still all day. I find myself shifting weight between my legs throughout the day, and finding occassional excuses to walk in circles or visit the whiteboard.
After a while you don't even process it as some sort of inconvenience. Sitting down actually drives me nuts now. It feels "wrong" for some reason. I have no trouble getting to sleep at night though.
Do you have a partner or kids? What impact has this choice made on them?
I find that standing when working helps me concentrate better, though I make more typing mistakes because the position of my hands is different from what I had been used to. I didn’t have serious back problems before, but my back does feel better now that I am sitting less. I don’t stand up all day; I sit down occasionally to rest my legs.
I think making sure all the physical/mental tools are available comfortably, e.g. multiple monitors, spend a lot of time on ergo considerations (you should be tiling your head slightly down when viewing content), gel rests for wrists for typing/mouse, padded gel floor mat to reduce foot stress and force more micro-muscle adjustments in your legs.
It takes getting used to, but now I can do the same sitting or standing.
Long line at the grocery store? No thank you - I'll come back later.
I solved it by constantly massaging my calves for about a month and a half. There are tools you can purchase on Amazon for it like the Stick, but gua sha, a spatula from your kitchen works just as well.
I also switch to shoes that don't have soles since soles weaken your muscles by causing them to atrophy.
Haven't had problems since.
Hope you can resolve the issues.
Initially it hurt more, then it just went away.
A second thin on the calves is using a "strassburg sock" during night. Keeps everything stretched, if one's one of those with initial pain in the morning because it has "settled" in a non flexed state.
Not sure if I agree on soles, though. Some people have feet that needs correction. Or at least that having used soles one's whole life, suddenly switching it up can lead to more harm than good. For me, finally getting a custom molded sole has solved a lot of issues I've been dealing with my whole life (wide foot, extreme arch).
(most of my pf knowledge is based on me and friends getting it from running, other causes might have other characteristics)
Anecdote is not data but I'm 100% convinced that the soles made it worse for me, apart from the >10k spent on soles and shoes. I can go running again without pain!
For a few weeks, maybe 5-10 minutes a day, totally fixed it. It was pretty awful until then but it was amazing how quickly it cleared it up. I tried different styles of the roller but that style (rubber with small weird nub things) seems to work the best/most comfortable to use.
Just wanted to say thanks. I never consciously linked the 2. Will have to make use of it to know if my exercise routine is helping.
But (and I really don't know about this), isn't standing the worst?
When you're sitting you can put your feet up to help circulation. And walking is also good for you. So I assume that's what the article "says"?
Can anyone provide a tl;dl?
- Standing applies pressure on the same points on the feet. Walking shifts pressure from place to place.
- "Moving in general is good for health" (with the implication that sitting and standing still are not moving)
Gotta love 90s radio. But... it's not the 90s anymore.
Sitting is generally OK, but I always slouch if that's the proper term, my butt is way in front of where it should be, so I have more Formula 1 position. And I can be like that for hours without feeling any pain or major discomfort. Actually sitting straight is not comfortable after some time and I always slide down. Office worker for 17 years, prior to that school 17 years of school of +-same stuff.
Maybe some slight type of scoliosis that was never diagnosed, really don't know. Working out with free weights and climbing keeps me in check and can't complain much, not even during covid times when moving generally less. But if anybody has any clue/suggestion for improvement I would be eternally thankful.
My hamstrings are very tight from sitting all day, to the point that I cannot even bend 90 degrees at the waist with my back straight without discomfort in my hamstrings. I've assumed that tight hamstrings are the root cause to my back pain while standing, but I haven't fixed it yet.
The best results I've had in the past when I was more physically active were from doing "good-morning" exercises. I think it's because you build strength in the stretched position, which is important according to various books I've read like "relax into stretch" and articles on PNF stretching. When I was doing these exercises regularly I was able to put my forhead to my knees without doing any regular stretches.
https://youtu.be/GX7Vz8OWwUI?t=63
Please at least watch the a minute from the timestamp to see if this can help.
I had the same back soreness after starting using a standing desk. I was also running every day and not doing other exercise (thanks lockdown). It didn’t seem to improve over time.
When it was allowed, I switched to going to the gym and only doing weights (squats, deadlifts, pull ups). After a couple of months the soreness just vanished, even after standing all day.
I can walk for hours and miles, but standing for even short durations is unbearable for me, due to pain & discomfort in my back and shoulders.
I’ve got “diagnosed” with an underdeveloped trapezius (and several other muscles in the upper back region) and my head is ‘heavier’ than those can carry, at least according to my GP, who used to be a physiotherapist. I’ve tried working out, with focus on these areas, posture corrections and sheer will power, but eventually I’ll end up slouching and my posture goes back to the hunchback of Notre Dame, because it feels more natural and ironically comfortable.
Nearing my 30s I’ve grown more desperate and pushed and pushed specialists and eventually they found out I have ‘minor’ scoliosis. Surgery will need to be paid privately, as it’s mostly discomfort and comparably not a lot of pain, and is therefore not an option at the moment. I can live with it, but the fear grows that it will get worse with age.
Whatever it was, it wasn't understood by medical science, but the best thing we were able to pin it down to was "muscle spasms". Over time, I found that seeing a myofascial specialist, yoga, and physical therapy (read: Apple Fitness Plus) helped.
If you'd like to chat more about this topic or just pick my brain, my email is my username AT my username DOT org.
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Heselden
I have a standing desk and a really good ergonomic chair and every time I need to do extended work away from home (like in a vacation rental) it reminds me how important a good setup is.
What I'm now wondering about with all this talk about gravity and blood circulation - is anyone here using those 0 gravity setups where the screen is hanging above you and you are practically lying down ?
It seems like it would fix all the issues, have massive health benefits in the long run - if it actually works I could justify 5k$ but I don't have a chance to try it and I haven't heard about anyone using them. I suspect HN crowd is a good place to ask - anyone has info on how effective they actually are ? What are the downsides ? Is it just the cost ?
We spend 8+ hours 5+ days a week at the computer - I'm sure over a decade or two the investment would pay off if it prevents back pain, removes strain from your heart and keeps you more rested while working.
I think similar thing happens to a degree when sitting.
I just wonder if the benefits are there and if there are any drawbacks.
[1] https://altwork.com/
I also thought that a Semi Circle chair which started at sitting position and over X hours each second, it shifted X of a degree until you finished lying down so there was constant change. No idea how that would work though.
Standing desk solved my back problems, but totally unhappy with all ergonomic chairs so far (Cheap-to-Herman Miller mainly). I kind of gave up burning money on them because it takes several weeks to get a feeling for a chair.
If anything, I think our largest (modern) collective societal health problem is that we do wayyyy to much trying to avoid straining the heart. For how much of human history were we not working mostly sedentary? It has a cost. The body is meant to be worked. It loses strength and stamina when it isn't. I don't think the answer is to do even less. Besides, do you know how many involuntary naps I'd take if I was laying down all day?
Your lymph system relies on the movements of your skeletal muscles to push anything not water soluble through your body. This includes fats, various local inflammation signaling molecules, etc.
When you feel sick don't stay in bed, go for walks, a large part of your immune system is passive and rely on muscle contraction to work optimally.
Do you have a source for this? I haven't heard this before and genuinely want to learn more about it. A cursory Google search didn't find anything related to this
https://www.mdanderson.org/publications/focused-on-health/ex....
And a common reaction to being sick is shivering, so maybe the body is already compensating for the lack of movement.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhabdomyolysis
If you have a typical office job, you almost certainly don’t even have enough time in the day to overtrain.
But overtraining isn’t just getting over exerted and having to rest for a few days or even weeks. It’s a very gnarly condition that’s ridiculously hard to get to. Most of us would mentally tap out long before.
It’s a lot like the difference between needing a break and being burned out. Getting tired and needing a break is normal, being burnt out is a serious condition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtraining
And if you had not done sport for a long time and suddenly get back to it, trying to "continue" where you left, that is when injuries happen.
I just put laptop on my bed, put a half-pumped sitting ball on the bed near the laptop and lie belly-down on it. About half the working time I just sit normally near my desk and the other half I change to this bed "setup". No back pains for over a year now (but I also started walking ~8 km a day so it probably helped too).
I've had issues with my back for most of my life. When I'm physically active (walking, resistance training, etc) and strengthen my core, I find that the problems subside to the point where I rarely hurt myself. It still happens but with much less frequency.
Posture and avoiding RSI-like outcomes helps too, but I genuinely think strengthening related muscle groups helps more. Not a doctor though, so take this opinion with an equivalently-sized grain of salt!
If that's the case, astronauts should come back healthier from space instead of less healthy.
https://mgsloan.com/posts/supine-computing/
...I haven't figured out yet how to develop a workstation where the computer is above me. I think the only way to really do that is actually to tilt one's body back, but actually that's not a good idea either. They have done studies recording from areas of the brain associated with alertness. Areas like locus coeruleus in the so-called reticular activating system. What they found is that depending on how reclined you are or upright you are, you will decrease with reclining and increase with sitting forward your levels of alertness. So body posture and whether or not your upright or reclining will impact your levels of alertness in the predictable ways. And where you position your eyes, whet her or not your eyes are upright, so to speak, looking up or directly forward or looking down, will dic tate whether or not you are feeling more alert or more sleepy, respectively. So try and arrange a work station or a position of your body in your chair or your standing desk, whatever it is, that allows you to work with a heightened state of alertness.
(text pulled from Youtube captions)
[0] https://hubermanlab.com/
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXvDEmo6uS4&t=2250
Removing all strain would be the worst thing you can do health-wise.
Adding support tends to weaken muscles. Use it or lose it.
This is the real problem. Any ergonomic solution is treating the symptoms rather than the cause.
Just the fact that people unirionically ask this question these days make me feel uneasy. Your body is literally screaming at your to move more, not less, listen to it. Work in 30 min blocks and go for walks in between, anything other than "how can I become a passive typing machine which doesn't move a muscle for 8 hours straight" please.
There isn't enough money in the world to buy a setup that will get rid of these issues, just be active, that's all there is, if you know how to sit properly, take breaks and exercise regularly you could use a 5$ ikea stool and never have back/shoulder issues. People want the magic pill to be healthy but focus on all the wrong things...
I care more about my health and long term well being than my company and the code I write. Walking 5 min every 30min won't kill your productivity, it might have the opposite effect actually.
I started exercising when I saw that most of my older peers in the field were fat/obese, had poor posture and no stamina whatsoever, these people are literally rotting day by day sitting in front of a computer
It seems so insane to me that some people internalised the idea that companies and productivity are the #1 priority in life, I can't even begin to wrap my head around that. As if selling your time wasn't enough, now you have to sell your body. Unless you live in some weird hellhole of a country without mandatory rest breaks laws I don't see why you would put yourself through sitting more than a few hours at once
I have been using standing desk for a year, trying to switch sitting and standing frequently, in my case at least every hour. Why ? Firstly, my physiotherapist said her stance on the long term standing is negative since it can lead to imbalances - humans tend to put more weight on one feet, for instance. Secondly, there was a long article in local weekly magazine about sitting and standing, basically saying that the human body will adapt to whatever condition there is. For sitting, this means the muscles etc. will eventually "freeze"; the only way how to fight that is constantly subject the body to change in posture.
1. Perfecting Your Posture, 2. Exercising for Better Posture 3. Standing at Work
https://www.wikihow.com/Stand-Correctly
Deskbound: Standing Up to a Sitting World
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31683999
Skipping over some of the rha-rha zeal there's some helpful ideas in making standing less static and more sustainable.
Compare moving your arm like a pendulum vs keeping it stretched horizontally.
You will probably find that you lean slightly from side to side or stagger very slightly, with your core having to be partly engaged all the time. Your feet are in the same spot, but your center of gravity shifts and the core is the only thing to counter that.
Meanwhile, when you walk, the momentum of your upper body takes care of a lot of this, you just automatically lean forward and your feet get under you, offloading a lot of that adjusting from your core. Your center of gravity moves predictably and your feet can "plan" to get right below it in the next step you take.
Turns out I had what Dr YouTube said was an anterior pelvic twist (standing slouchy, belly out). Making myself stand upright was actually enough to give me an abs workout. I felt from standing the kind of “burn” you get after a load of crunches.
Even now, a year later, I still have to work up to doing more than ~3 hours standing if I don’t stand consistently.
So standing desks have a great for me. My one concern is that when tired or focused I subconsciously lean at weird angles and put pressure in the wrong places, but hopefully I move frequently enough.
This means that it is not very good at bearing a load without moving; it has to work hard to keep those flexible muscles, tendons and ligaments still.
Maybe that's why planks world records are set by people in their 60s and 70s. Because most of their flexibility has been lost due to aging.
Is this true? Very interesting if it's because they're somehow advantaged for it.
I'd recommend starting out with placing your weight more towards the front of your foot. I imagine my foot having three zones: heel, mid/arch and front. I try to stand as much as possible on mid/arch and front but move around every few minutes to train more muscles and promote an overall more active/front leaning posture.
Once you start doing this you will probably realize you have a strong tendency to stand on your heels which strains a lot of muscles and tendons imo it also promotes a less ideal posture.
I'm not really qualified to give such advice though so your mileage may vary. This is just stuff I've noticed and has worked for me.