It's got to start somewhere. Especially considering they're using what seems to be a somewhat novel packaging for their batteries, best to ease into it.
I think GM sells a more cars in some years than Tesla’s total US sales of all time. They sold 2.8 million US cars in 2019 so 10% would be similar to every Model S ever sold in the US.[1]
With current pace, and considering two major plants opening( Texas,Berlin), and one new line(Shanghai) , tesla will be at 800k cars this year, 1.1-1.5m next year. So by 2023 tesla could approach GM size of 2019. Considering this two companies compete on the same market, and tesla plans to enter affordable segment in 2023 with model 2... it's a big question where GM will be in 2023-2024
If I look at GMs global sales for 2019 it would be 7.72 million which is almost 800k.
It will be interesting to see if the big global car companies will be able to beat Tesla on things like quality manufacturing, serviceability, and cost. Tesla is not appealing to me due to the premium cost combined with a cheap interior, non-serviceability ($1600 for eeprom from excessive logging!) and over reliance on software. Not to mention the $10k self driving vapor ware Elon pushes.
Excited to see what GM, Ford, MB and BMW will offer in the coming years.
I think the non-servicability aspect is made out to be more critical than it is for MOST purposes. There were third party fixes for the storage issue, for example. And in general Tesla has one of the better online parts catalogs, and you can order replacement parts directly.
The issue is more to do with a lack of service facilities that are ready and willing to deal with these new cars. Volume will change that more than any particular policy change.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying there are zero issues. Tesla will not sell high voltage components. There are situations where this can be problematic.
Ouch! I was going to do some comparisons with Telsa's online catalog vs other's I have used (Mopar for Jeeps) but I have to create a login. Mopar is definitely one of the better ones I have used. At least they are not like BMW who lack anything. realoem.com has always helped me out.
I'm a model Y owner. I broke the charging port sensor with high-pressure washing. I opened an App, click service, the error was in the App already; I pressed on that error, App created a request. Service came at my home and fixed it. I paid 0 dollars for it. I spent 2 mites creating request and 5 minutes to open and close the gate to service person. Will Ford come to my home? Good luck spending hours on the phone with a dealer that has no clue about electric cars at all. People pay the same price for Mach-E as I paid for my model Y except temporary federal credits.
Cheap interior? I have the best infotainment system compares to any other brand, even if that car cost $100k+. I've got games, best-in class audio, video streaming and I'm using it a lot. I have not fragmented glass roof; every person sitting in my car is amazed by it. Even owners of far more expensive Mercedes etc.. The seat is one of the best I ever seat it; they don't outsource it as other brands and tesla invest a lot of time in ergonomics. The rest is just taste. I like minimalism. And it matches my preferences.
And yeah, I call vapor ware when Nissan bundles satellite radio and tons of nonsense to have access to the app. Or navigation system in the past for few thousands dollars from any brand. Or when dealers charging several hundred dollars premium for the lost keys when I use my phone in tesla. Seriously you compare the ugly dealership experience of traditional brands to an optional offer of autopilot that will be soon available as a subscription? Or electic car that don't invest in charging network, unlike tesla, that has charging points in every stupid tourist destination I can imagine?
I had false feedback from many people about car price also. If you look at the prices and compare head to head...
Ford... compare cybertuck and F-150, like range, battery, motors, etc... especially premium $90k Ford with $75k CT, and you'll not be so confident. Or compare $32k Nissan leaf with overheating batteries compares to $37k-$39k Model 3... they not even in the same league. Nissan leaf was on the market for 10 years, but Tesla sold more model 3 as total Nissan leaf sales combined. And there is a reason for that, it's not only branding. You got service, electric charging network etc...
Ford Mach-E is dollar to dollar matches Model Y. Current BMW offering among electric car is not even worth discussion. It's just junk. They announces something next year though.
Don't get me wrong, they will sell a lot of cars, as entire industry will turn in electric as fast as they can produce cheap batteries.
I hear a lot tesla is expensive, but there is nothing with comparable range and features on a market that is substantially cheaper. A year ago the statement was there is almost nothing on the market at all. Luckily now it's changing.
Nobody offers you to buy $10k Autopilot, you can subscribe soon to it, for a fraction of that price if you WANT.
As someone in the market for a crossover SUV, I think the competitor isn’t the Mach-E but the VW id.4.
In my case the VW dealership and Tesla Service are both 5 minutes from me. I’m leaning VW because of CarPlay and the rear windshield of the Model Y has visibility problems.
I think the “cheap interior” refers to Tesla’s sparse cabins and use of plastic. Playing games or watching videos on my infotainment system doesn’t make much sense to me.
It has a bit of feeling it might be an issue if you switch with from another car, but you getting used to it almost right away. No issues at all for 1 year of driving for me and my gf.
I'm thinking of a second electric car and Id4 freaks me out with quality of software, youtube is full of frozen screen. I don't play games on a computer, or phone, but I quite often wait for someone in the car. or while in road trip and charging.
Tesla approach in car experience in a very fundamental way. In may opinion CarPlay is just a temporary solution where manufacture failed to provide something decent. Tesla gives you good screen a very decent list of software, amazing sound quality etc...
It gives you real ability, disconnect from the phone while you driving, and car play is a way dangerous thing that a slightly limited view in rear windshield.
After I switched to tesla my car doesn't have a phone cable, holders, it's just used as a key, and lay in a wireless charger. I guess this is a right approach to drive a car.
A Model S interior is not a ~$100k interior should look like. Look at what MB, BMW, Porsche, Audi, and even Lincoln and Hyundai have. The interior feels cheap and utilitarian for the price. You do not have best in class speakers, MB and BMW have some crazy speaker offerings.
The service is baked into the premium price you pay. Yes BMW and MB will come get your car and leave you a loaner.
Nissan is in a death spiral and hasn't really done much to the leaf in 10 years.
A don’t wan a stupid screen in my car to play videos games or watch TV. I already have a TV, iPad, laptop, or phone. It’s dangerous. I want a center screen above my steering wheel, steering controls that do a single function like cruise or music changes, or HUD so I can keep my eyes straight.
Tesla's do not have changing stations everywhere and I wouldn't be able to charge it at my condo in the panhandle of Florida or the way there. I would have to buy a room at 5 or 6 hotels in the area just to use a charger that's better than a standard 120v outlet.
Edit: I see they added one public supercharger that wouldn't be more than 45 minutes out of the way on my vacation route.
It's much easier for a tiny competitor to scale by double digits, especially when said competitor only sells cars in a few countries. For GM to increase car sales by double digits would likely require the sudden disappearance of one of its major competitors like Toyota creating a huge void in the global market.
For example: the Toyota Mirai, a very niche hydrogen car, saw 1000% YoY sales gains. The Chevy Bolt EV saw a 335% YoY increase in sales.
Also, note that GM sold 50% more cars in the U.S. this past quarter alone as Tesla sold all of last year worldwide. Toyota edged GM by fewer than a 1000 cars in the U.S. Each of them has sold almost as many cars this year as Tesla has ever sold.
Yep, but the only difference is that tesla in those few markets start outselling other brands in certain categories and their annual volumes will count in millions next year. You can easy compare them to BMW or Audi. next year they will be companies with comparable volume. Somehow I don't see BMW or Audi growing that fast.
Tesla's annual car sales is anticipated to exceed 1 million (but not 2 million), so technically yes, they would be in the "millions."
I also don't see BMW or Audi growing very fast; they're luxury brands and scale would actually harm their image. However, I do see GM, Ford, and VW scaling very quickly once they launch new EV models.
Ford's F150 Lightning will handily outsell the Cybertruck once it's available. (And the F-series itself is the best-selling vehicle of all time in the U.S. [Edit: and second-best all-time worldwide, after the Corolla series].)
Tesla is moving into heavy battery manufacturing. If there isn’t car demand they can put those batteries into power walls and utility power packs or Semis. GM is just focused on cars.
Tesla is targeting 200GWh+ of batteries in 2022 just from suppliers + their own 4680 production. But not all will go into cars.
'the long-term plan of a total Tesla battery output of 100 GWh by 2022 and 3 TWh by 2030 – that’s “supplemental to what we buy from our usual suppliers,”'
I'm not sure what you mean. If you plug a Taycan into a 120V outlet, the onboard charger has to get from 120V to 800V.
If you DCFC, it depends on the charger. I think EA will typically do 800V, but some have to go through an onboard DC->DC converter to get from 400V to 800V? I'm fuzzy on that last bit, though.
I'm not sure that there were actually new details here? The ability to join the two packs in series for a higher voltage was well known for a while now.
It will be interesting to see how they manage the claim of safe charging to 100%. Most other companies are doing that by adding a large buffer. It wouldn't surprise me if that is the case with GM as well.
This is supposedly a safer battery chemistry than lithium-ion, with better behavior in fires and punctures. Although it would be good to hear from NFPA and UL on this. It's also apparently better behaved about being fully charged and discharged than lithium-ion. These are both good characteristics to have as electric vehicles start to dominate the market.
Drone video of one GM battery factory under construction.[1] That's the one in Lordstown, OH. Building exterior is finished. Power substation finished. A/C cooling towers under construction. Next one is in Spring Hill, TN. GM doesn't make as much noise as Tesla about building large battery factories. They just build them.
According to the article these are lithium-ion. Everyone is tweaking the chemistries within that space. LFP already has most of those advantages but lower density. We're in for some fast paced improvement over the next 10 years.
"LG Energy Solutions, the company that makes the battery for the Bolt and Kona EV, has not had a good year. First, they agreed to replace the 82,000 batteries sold to Hyundai for the Kona EV, Ioniq, and Elec City buses. Although the initial rumors were from a faulty battery separator, Hyundai later said that the problem was badly folded tabs. GM emphatically pointed out that they use a different separator, and a different factory. Thus neither of those problems should apply to the Bolt fires.
Porsche recently initiated a recall on a loss of power in its Taycan LG batteries, and Ford also moved from LG in its Mustang Mach-E to SK in its Ford F-150 Lightning."
> Tim Grewe, GM’s Global Electrification and Battery Systems Director, told Car and Driver that the Ultium pack does not suffer capacity loss from excessive DC fast charging, so GM will not advise users to charge the pack to less than 100 percent.
I'm guessing this means just means "100%" charge is not actually 100% of the battery. Most other EVs do this by a few % (even Tesla), but they also don't recommend charging to 100%. I guess GM will limit it even further.
>Tim Grewe, GM’s Global Electrification and Battery Systems Director, told Car and Driver that the Ultium pack does not suffer capacity loss from excessive DC fast charging, so GM will not advise users to charge the pack to less than 100 percent.
Translation: we can get higher spec cells now, so battery capacity will be over-rated. A "100 KWh" pack will be 120 KW+. When it says it's fully charged it's actually sitting at a nice conservative 80% SoC. You could fast charge it every day because the pack is so huge that 100 KW is a nice gentle 1C charge rate. You can push the warranty out further because you have more headroom for battery aging.
Presumably when the car hits three or four years old it'll set a charge threshold at 80% and start warning you about fast charging. (Or maybe not? It would be in GM's interest to let you run it into the ground like a cellphone)
They’ll probably give owners a setting that controls this. Maybe it appears after x years or kilometres? Interesting new EV UX issue for them if they do upsize the battery packs.
This is similar to Apple’s degraded battery CPU throttling where they would throttle and not give you any choice or awareness of it. Now, when your battery ages, you can choose to run it into the ground with max performance.
>Now, when your battery ages, you can choose to run it into the ground with max performance.
Haven't used an iPhone in a while, But I thought the charge cutoff happens automatically at 80% if you plug in overnight and continues charging before you wakeup? Is there an user control over this now?
Anyways for android users who wish to have control over battery charging on you can use 'AccA'[1] to charge from 40-80%, including temperature related CHANGES. This way you can charge your phone overnight on a low voltage USB (Slow charge) and prolong the life of that battery even further.
Wanted: an EV with the looks of the Mach-E, performance of the Kia EV6-GT, the software of Tesla, the battery of GM, safety of the LIDAR-equipped Volvo XC90, and the warranty of a Hyundai. All for less than $45,000 with a $7500 federal tax credit.
40 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 93.3 ms ] threadThey're doing GWh vs their competition aiming at TWh
GM is probably going to build more plants to be collocates near their auto assembly sites.
[1] https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/tesla-model-s-sales-figures-us...
It will be interesting to see if the big global car companies will be able to beat Tesla on things like quality manufacturing, serviceability, and cost. Tesla is not appealing to me due to the premium cost combined with a cheap interior, non-serviceability ($1600 for eeprom from excessive logging!) and over reliance on software. Not to mention the $10k self driving vapor ware Elon pushes.
Excited to see what GM, Ford, MB and BMW will offer in the coming years.
The issue is more to do with a lack of service facilities that are ready and willing to deal with these new cars. Volume will change that more than any particular policy change.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying there are zero issues. Tesla will not sell high voltage components. There are situations where this can be problematic.
I'm a model Y owner. I broke the charging port sensor with high-pressure washing. I opened an App, click service, the error was in the App already; I pressed on that error, App created a request. Service came at my home and fixed it. I paid 0 dollars for it. I spent 2 mites creating request and 5 minutes to open and close the gate to service person. Will Ford come to my home? Good luck spending hours on the phone with a dealer that has no clue about electric cars at all. People pay the same price for Mach-E as I paid for my model Y except temporary federal credits.
Cheap interior? I have the best infotainment system compares to any other brand, even if that car cost $100k+. I've got games, best-in class audio, video streaming and I'm using it a lot. I have not fragmented glass roof; every person sitting in my car is amazed by it. Even owners of far more expensive Mercedes etc.. The seat is one of the best I ever seat it; they don't outsource it as other brands and tesla invest a lot of time in ergonomics. The rest is just taste. I like minimalism. And it matches my preferences.
And yeah, I call vapor ware when Nissan bundles satellite radio and tons of nonsense to have access to the app. Or navigation system in the past for few thousands dollars from any brand. Or when dealers charging several hundred dollars premium for the lost keys when I use my phone in tesla. Seriously you compare the ugly dealership experience of traditional brands to an optional offer of autopilot that will be soon available as a subscription? Or electic car that don't invest in charging network, unlike tesla, that has charging points in every stupid tourist destination I can imagine?
I had false feedback from many people about car price also. If you look at the prices and compare head to head... Ford... compare cybertuck and F-150, like range, battery, motors, etc... especially premium $90k Ford with $75k CT, and you'll not be so confident. Or compare $32k Nissan leaf with overheating batteries compares to $37k-$39k Model 3... they not even in the same league. Nissan leaf was on the market for 10 years, but Tesla sold more model 3 as total Nissan leaf sales combined. And there is a reason for that, it's not only branding. You got service, electric charging network etc...
Ford Mach-E is dollar to dollar matches Model Y. Current BMW offering among electric car is not even worth discussion. It's just junk. They announces something next year though. Don't get me wrong, they will sell a lot of cars, as entire industry will turn in electric as fast as they can produce cheap batteries.
I hear a lot tesla is expensive, but there is nothing with comparable range and features on a market that is substantially cheaper. A year ago the statement was there is almost nothing on the market at all. Luckily now it's changing.
Nobody offers you to buy $10k Autopilot, you can subscribe soon to it, for a fraction of that price if you WANT.
In my case the VW dealership and Tesla Service are both 5 minutes from me. I’m leaning VW because of CarPlay and the rear windshield of the Model Y has visibility problems.
I think the “cheap interior” refers to Tesla’s sparse cabins and use of plastic. Playing games or watching videos on my infotainment system doesn’t make much sense to me.
I'm thinking of a second electric car and Id4 freaks me out with quality of software, youtube is full of frozen screen. I don't play games on a computer, or phone, but I quite often wait for someone in the car. or while in road trip and charging.
Tesla approach in car experience in a very fundamental way. In may opinion CarPlay is just a temporary solution where manufacture failed to provide something decent. Tesla gives you good screen a very decent list of software, amazing sound quality etc...
It gives you real ability, disconnect from the phone while you driving, and car play is a way dangerous thing that a slightly limited view in rear windshield.
After I switched to tesla my car doesn't have a phone cable, holders, it's just used as a key, and lay in a wireless charger. I guess this is a right approach to drive a car.
The service is baked into the premium price you pay. Yes BMW and MB will come get your car and leave you a loaner.
Nissan is in a death spiral and hasn't really done much to the leaf in 10 years.
A don’t wan a stupid screen in my car to play videos games or watch TV. I already have a TV, iPad, laptop, or phone. It’s dangerous. I want a center screen above my steering wheel, steering controls that do a single function like cruise or music changes, or HUD so I can keep my eyes straight.
Tesla's do not have changing stations everywhere and I wouldn't be able to charge it at my condo in the panhandle of Florida or the way there. I would have to buy a room at 5 or 6 hotels in the area just to use a charger that's better than a standard 120v outlet.
Edit: I see they added one public supercharger that wouldn't be more than 45 minutes out of the way on my vacation route.
For example: the Toyota Mirai, a very niche hydrogen car, saw 1000% YoY sales gains. The Chevy Bolt EV saw a 335% YoY increase in sales.
Also, note that GM sold 50% more cars in the U.S. this past quarter alone as Tesla sold all of last year worldwide. Toyota edged GM by fewer than a 1000 cars in the U.S. Each of them has sold almost as many cars this year as Tesla has ever sold.
I also don't see BMW or Audi growing very fast; they're luxury brands and scale would actually harm their image. However, I do see GM, Ford, and VW scaling very quickly once they launch new EV models.
Ford's F150 Lightning will handily outsell the Cybertruck once it's available. (And the F-series itself is the best-selling vehicle of all time in the U.S. [Edit: and second-best all-time worldwide, after the Corolla series].)
Tesla is targeting 200GWh+ of batteries in 2022 just from suppliers + their own 4680 production. But not all will go into cars.
Where did your 750 GWh number come from?
Bloody brilliant. I always wondered how much copper you need to step 120v all the way up to 800v for a car like the Taycan.
Also, 200kwh? Where's my It's Happening gif?
If you DCFC, it depends on the charger. I think EA will typically do 800V, but some have to go through an onboard DC->DC converter to get from 400V to 800V? I'm fuzzy on that last bit, though.
In any case the DCFC definitely don't step up 350KW of power from 120 to 800V, as that would defeat the whole purpose of using a higher voltage.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877532/general-moto...
It will be interesting to see how they manage the claim of safe charging to 100%. Most other companies are doing that by adding a large buffer. It wouldn't surprise me if that is the case with GM as well.
Drone video of one GM battery factory under construction.[1] That's the one in Lordstown, OH. Building exterior is finished. Power substation finished. A/C cooling towers under construction. Next one is in Spring Hill, TN. GM doesn't make as much noise as Tesla about building large battery factories. They just build them.
[1] https://youtu.be/vbgzuy6usaE
"LG Energy Solutions, the company that makes the battery for the Bolt and Kona EV, has not had a good year. First, they agreed to replace the 82,000 batteries sold to Hyundai for the Kona EV, Ioniq, and Elec City buses. Although the initial rumors were from a faulty battery separator, Hyundai later said that the problem was badly folded tabs. GM emphatically pointed out that they use a different separator, and a different factory. Thus neither of those problems should apply to the Bolt fires.
Porsche recently initiated a recall on a loss of power in its Taycan LG batteries, and Ford also moved from LG in its Mustang Mach-E to SK in its Ford F-150 Lightning."
I'm guessing this means just means "100%" charge is not actually 100% of the battery. Most other EVs do this by a few % (even Tesla), but they also don't recommend charging to 100%. I guess GM will limit it even further.
Translation: we can get higher spec cells now, so battery capacity will be over-rated. A "100 KWh" pack will be 120 KW+. When it says it's fully charged it's actually sitting at a nice conservative 80% SoC. You could fast charge it every day because the pack is so huge that 100 KW is a nice gentle 1C charge rate. You can push the warranty out further because you have more headroom for battery aging.
Presumably when the car hits three or four years old it'll set a charge threshold at 80% and start warning you about fast charging. (Or maybe not? It would be in GM's interest to let you run it into the ground like a cellphone)
This is similar to Apple’s degraded battery CPU throttling where they would throttle and not give you any choice or awareness of it. Now, when your battery ages, you can choose to run it into the ground with max performance.
Haven't used an iPhone in a while, But I thought the charge cutoff happens automatically at 80% if you plug in overnight and continues charging before you wakeup? Is there an user control over this now?
Anyways for android users who wish to have control over battery charging on you can use 'AccA'[1] to charge from 40-80%, including temperature related CHANGES. This way you can charge your phone overnight on a low voltage USB (Slow charge) and prolong the life of that battery even further.
[1] https://github.com/MatteCarra/AccA
https://electrek.co/2021/07/14/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-owners-not-c... and this is after forced recall and two supposed "software fixes"