"Still, his actions make it necessary to repeal all of his arguments and assumptions."
Really? James Watson and William Shockley both said very unpopular things about race. Shockley advocated a policy of sterilizing lower class black people. Should we repeal all use and knowledge of DNA and semiconductors?
Even if Shockley started killing black people as stage one eugenics, his actions would have absolutely no impact on his ideas. None.
Yes, but there is no train of thought from semiconductors to stupid ideas about eugenics. There _is_ one from anti-socialist rhetoric to killing members of a left party.
"Yes, but there is no train of thought from semiconductors to stupid ideas about eugenics."
You badly underestimate the perverse creativity of a paranoid schizophrenic. I've never seen that one but I've certainly seen things every bit as crazy.
Maybe we miss the point here. You can't argue the science behind transistors is correct (or, at least, the engineering) but you can show how bad things end up when we start recommending eugenics.
The central idea of eugenics - that we can control our evolution the way we did with dogs or cattle - is not inherently flawed, but I wouldn't trust the evolution of our species to its current members. Before we think about building a better mankind, we need a better mankind.
...but you can show how bad things end up when we start recommending eugenics.
This is a perfect example of why it's bad to reject an idea simply because it has unpleasant proponents. If we rejected eugenics based on unpleasant associations, thousands of Ashkenazi Jewish children would have died a horrible death.
Good point. I have failed to find many points that do not involve racism and violence, but if you can find anything good in those 1500+ pages, please, share.
I don't need to know his arguments. His actions speak louder than any of his words. I actually like their idea. If he bombed because he wanted people to read it, then by tainting any copy Anonymous can make sure that he has failed.
One of the delights of HN is that the comments rarely include pointless epithets. So how about replacing 'stupid' with a sentence or two from his 'manifesto' and then telling us what you think is irrational or wrong with it?
"While the radical feminist movement is embraced by present day Political Correctness ideology, derived from cultural Marxism,"
There are 1500 pages of nonsensical ranting, elaborately constructed with the most tortuous logic. It would take weeks to parse it, weeks I intend to dedicate to far nobler purposes.
Regarding the supposed islamization of Europe, I think a large portion of the immigrants from muslim countries who moved to Europe belong to at least one of these groups:
a)not muslim
b)not interested in promoting islam
c)looking to live in a more secular or free country
d)like cold weather :)
Could Europe do anything to stop the muslim immigrants from wanting to move to Europe instead of deporting them when they are already living in Europe as Breivik suggests? Maybe stop selling weapons to the leaders of countries who kill their own people for holding peaceful demonstrations? Or stop the wars for cheap oil? Too bad there's no way to undo the European colonization of muslim countries, cause that would definitely have helped.
Facts:
Current birth rate among indigenous Europeans in most if not all European countries is and has been below replacement level for a few decades. Most population growth in Europe in the last few decades has been from immigration from outside Europe. The birth rate among non-indigenous Europeans in European countries is higher than indigenous birth rate.
Projections (not fact):
This trend doesn't appear to be changing and it looks like it will continue for many more decades. If the trend continues, in a few decades the genetic makeup of most Europeans will be more similar to that of non-European ethnic groups than to that of people who have lived in Europe for tens of thousands of years.
Arguments (assuming projections are true):
a) the projections above are a bad thing if you are an ethnic European and you predominantly carry genes that split from the ethnic groups of immigrants tens of thousands of years ago.
b) the projections above don't matter
c) the projections above are a good thing
State why the projections are likely to be wrong, debunk argument a) or justify why arguments b/c are correct. Proceed.
I believe your starting point is largely irrelevant, but first...
A good justification for (b) can be found by determining the genetic diversity of indigenous populations from thousands of years ago and comparing to the present day. As an example the UK has had many 'immigrants' in just the past two thousand years alone, with the Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans being notable topics on a good school's History lessons.
Nevertheless, I believe your arguments aren't particularly relevant to the issues held by these extremists, who fear Islamic culture more than they fear Muslims themselves. They view 'multiculturalism' as the replacement of indigenous culture. If you want to go anywhere with this, you have to debate this more nuanced (and less scientific) viewpoint.
You used the UK as an example, however, Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans were ethnic Europeans and these genetic groups didn't split from indigenous people in the British isles tens of thousands of years ago but more recently. The projection (not fact) above mentions that: "in a few decades the genetic makeup of most Europeans will be more similar to that of NON-European ethnic groups than to that of people who have lived in Europe for TENS OF THOUSANDS of years".
In any case if you were any of those groups, you would have opposed an invasion from a later group. Picts fought Roman "immigration". One might interpret this as Picts wanting their genetic makeup to be more representative in the overall population of the British isles.
I don't see how this justification might convince someone who is "an ethnic European and predominantly carries genes that split from the ethnic groups of immigrants tens of thousands of years ago" that the projection doesn't matter if they don't already believe so.
I wasn't aware that these extremists aren't concerned about genes. I haven't read the manifesto nor am I planning to. However, people can still have a go at debunking the genetic argument above if they wish.
The issue with the devil's advocate position is this. There's no such thing as an "ethnic" European. Race is a very recent sociopolitical construct, born in the 16th/17th centuries and initially used to justify English supremacy over the Irish and only later picking up connotations of skin color. The genetic differences between a Scotsman and a Spaniard are far larger than those separating a Greek and a Turk.
Pre-modern European tribes did not place an emphasis on race; it didn't exist yet. Nor did they care about protecting the nation or their national heritage, as the concept of nation itself took centuries to form millenia later and only started playing a major geopolitical role with the French revolution. This isn't to say the tribesmen were multiculturalists; they had their own cultures and were often wary of outsiders, but mostly for reasons of self defense. But the supposed desire for genetic homogeneity didn't prevent Scandinavians from raiding the French and British coasts, abducting women, and forcibly mating with them, despite their cultural and genetic differences.
By "ethnic Europeans" I mean a group of people who cluster genetically very closely and whose ancestors have lived in Europe for millennia.
There is not just one ethnic European group, there are many.[1]
I didn't mention the word "race" in any of the comments above. However, scientists show us that different groups of people on Earth cluster together genetically closer than they do to other groups of people. [2] This is what one expects if the ancestors of these groups parted ways millennia ago. What you mention about Turks and Greeks is not unexpected, Greece and Turkey being practically next to each other, I don't know why you bring this up.
You are entirely correct about pre-modern European tribes and nation states. If the comment above implies something different from this although I believe it doesn't, then I made a mistake.
We moved to the concept of "race" about which you are absolutely correct. It's a sociopolitical construct and the meaning of this word has not been consistent throughout history. Remember though that I didn't use this word.
Back to the genetic argument, why doesn't the projection matter? (argument b) which grand-parent was justifying)
A lot of people would be surprised to learn that America in 1500 was arguably less racist than America in 1850 or 1950 simply because the concept of "race" wasn't well established as being a particularly important way to categorize people.
There is a tendency to assume that people always thought in the categories that we use now.
> There's no such thing as an "ethnic" European. Race is a very recent sociopolitical construct
It's funny how a tiny fraction of college educated white people in the West are the only people in the whole world to believe this. Everybody else knows what race and what white people are.
It is fair to point out that it's wrong to claim race doesn't exist. It does. But it's just as wrong to say that it's somehow immutable or a scientific concept (though, as pointed out above, human genetic clustering is a real phenomenon).
I read a lot of arguments about how 'multiculturalism' and 'too many muslims' will lead to loss of social cohesion and lead to inevitable social conflict.
My thought is how come Europe managed to have CENTURIES of warfare (100 years war, 30 years, LOTS of civil wars, World War I, World War I and LOTS more) and most of these conflict were purely intra-Europeans? The Englishman in 1700 saw the Spaniard as being just as foreign as a Swede sees a Muslim today - probably more so if the Muslim lives in Sweden and speaks Swedish.
My point is just that if immigrants didn't exist people would still find something to fight over so this whole "immigrants are the very cause of social conflict" logic seems very dubious to me.
> The Englishman in 1700 saw the Spaniard as being just as foreign as a Swede sees a Muslim today
Um, no. The reconquista and various crusades were pan-european wars against muslims way before 1700. Englishmen died driving the Moors from Spain. There has definitely long been a European identity.
The demographic "threat" Bawer and others constantly go on about is massively overhyped. Basically, every Muslim in Europe would have to have equal amounts of kids to those in Palestine and Yemen (two of the highest birthrates in the world) consistently for the next 50 years, while all of Europe would have to suffer the kind of demographic decline Russia has supposedly suffered (I doubt the official statistics, but you know the ones I mean) during the same period. It's a statistical impossibility, in other words.
Then the projection above is wrong according to your comment. I think that the best way to attack the projection is providing solid mathematical work, statistics and probabilities that show the most likely outcome. I believe that you are stating that it is statistically impossible for Europe to become Muslim, however, the projection wasn't concerned with religion or culture but with the genetic makeup of the population.
It was my understanding that the projection comes simply from extrapolating the figures from the past few decades, apart form looking at the age pyramid of Europe and seeing how much immigration will be needed to pay for pensions, health care and so on. I haven't done the math myself so I can't tell you whether it is true. If this is a collaborative effort, then I think it would be wise for someone with the background to dismiss those projections mathematically.
However to show that such a demographic change is not such a statistical impossibility, look at US demographics. Ethnic Europeans were around 80% of the US population in the 80s, they are around 60% now and it is projected by the US government itself that in the next few decades they will be below 50%. You can bump that last percentage a little bit to account for those counted as Hispanic whites who are actually predominantly indigenous Europeans. I know US demographics are completely unrelated and have nothing to do with the OP which relates to Europe. This was simply to show how such demographic changes are not impossible. Nevertheless, there could be other variables which I'm not aware of, that make what we've seen in the US possible but impossible in Europe.
The assumption seems to be that muslims born, brought up and living in Europe would have the exact same birthrate as if their ancestors who lived in a very different society at a different time.
For that matter, birthrates are plummeting in many developing countries including the middle eastern ones - this is generally not acknowledged in these kind of projections.
Immigration discourages westerners from reproducing. Immigrants drive up housing costs, lower wages, and increase competition for school spots and good neighborhoods. All this makes family formation a more daunting proposition for people who aspire to maintain a middle class standard of living.
Western and East Asian birth rates probably reflect collective decisions that the lands are full. To respond by opening the borders to millions of foreigners makes no sense.
I am having a really, really hard time not going ad-hominem on this, but ... I think you're wrong.
Home buyers drive up housing costs, which is generally considered a good thing - and mortgage bankers drive up costs way more than immigrants, and the people selling those houses really don't complain. Employers drive down wages, which is called "productivity", although I'm sure they'd like you to believe immigrants are at fault. Children increase competition for school spots - although their parents help pay for more school spots, so it typically works out well.
Western and East Asian birth rates reflect collective decisions that people have better things to do than have a bunch of kids. If you have a wife, she may understand this better than you do. (Apologies if you yourself are female.)
Puerto Rico is more full than Europe (it surprised me to learn this, too) - but poor, mostly. The birth rate is still quite high there. This alone probably doesn't refute your argument, but I hope it at least makes you think a little.
All in all, though, you seem to be saying that immigrants are at fault for economics working the way it does. I think you need to ask yourself, really carefully, who benefits when you ascribe these things to immigration.
d) survivor bias: you conveniently use the term "European" because it is now considered an integrated population, but one century ago, French people were scared of Italians immigrating. That's just an example. There was no such thing as being "European".
Correct. Now imagine that you are DNA mutations A and B carried by French people and I'm mutations C and D carried by Italians. If 200 years ago 80% of the population carried mutations A and B and today only 20% of the population carry them, while 60% carry C and D. Wouldn't you say that you have lost?
Two other points though:
-Italian immigration wasn't anywhere near the scale of present day immigration to Europe. In other words the percentages in the example above aren't close to the real ones, however, the projection says that the percentages of European v.s. non-European genes would be as low as that or lower.
-French and Italians cluster genetically right next to each other compared to current immigrating populations. Now why this makes a difference for some people, read this other comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2808602
If you need someone to explain to you why it would be bad for the West to die and be reformed along the lines of current mid-eastern muslim nations, I really don't know what to say. You don't find it obvious that Western Civilization is good and worth preserving?
First, I don't think there's a single Western Civilization; Europe is in many ways different than the US, even if they're both 'western'.
Second, I don't think a change in the genetic makeup (which is what the projections point to) would necessarily mean the death of the Western civilization. In fact, the many Western values have already spread beyond the West, leading to miscegenation of cultures. The same would be true for an Europe with a higher number of people with different genetic makeup.
Personally, I'm more worried about the loss of local values in the face of the giant which is the US, which has much more power to disseminate them than any Muslim country.
> I don't think a change in the genetic makeup would necessarily mean the death of the Western civilization
A change in the genetic makeup of Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria from Christian ethnicities to Arab certainly lead to the death of those cultures. You don't understand that races and cultures are two very intertwined things.
One might argue that it's a bad thing at the DNA level for your DNA, not for you as a person. If you make the distinction between you as a person and your genetic makeup, then there is nothing bad, since whose genes live on Earth in a thousand years is irrelevant, it could be elephants and you would be as happy.
If you go down to the DNA level, one might say that it's a bad thing, because DNA's objective is to survive and spread. Just like life itself. If the genetic makeup that makes you European disappears or is less prevalent than it was, then you could say that the DNA you carry did not reach its objective or was less successful in doing so than other groups. Even if the difference between your DNA and that of the group that succeeds is just 0.5%, your European DNA branch split from the other tens of thousands of years ago.
You could say now that whatever mutations were acquired during those years failed. Those tens of thousands of years wasted, your most recent ancestors that went through: famines, wars, disease, ice ages, etc.. might just as well have committed suicide and saved themselves the trouble (assuming you're nothing but a thing that carries DNA).
Sex is there to help the offspring of two organisms survive. If they replace themselves with 2 children, then that's 50% and 50%, even and fair. What the projection says though is that the DNA of Europeans won't be 50% European in Europe and 50% in immigrant's original countries. It would be much less than that in Europe with current trends and nowhere near in the immigrant's original countries. So you wouldn't be getting that fair share.
So it's bad, if we take pure biological imperative as morality. Does anyone really do that? I certainly don't; in fact, I plan to die without producing offspring.
Well, you know perfectly well what I meant. If you release a baseball at 10,000 feet here on Earth, it's a weird way to put it but you could say that the ball's objective is to fall towards the Earth. I could have said that there are physical forces that make DNA survive into the next generation and spread. At the end of the day, it's just chemicals interacting. Is this not true? Could have life spread on Earth if it didn't work that way?
I hate censorship, but I think the intent here is not so much to censor his ideas as to negate the "advertising" value of the tragic attacks.
It's wrong to say "that guy has dangerous ideas and should be censored", but it's another thing to say "that guy killed nearly 90 people to promote his manifesto, we should make sure he doesn't get what he wanted"
Except that he didn't do the killing to promote his manifesto (I thought that was a bit weird in Anonymous' statement), he did it to harm the Norwegian Labour Party.
Quite successfully, unfortunately. Those kids in the camp, especially the older ones, were probably going to fill the ranks of the real Labour party later on in life, politicians of the future. Now their future intelligentsia is either dead or suffering PTSD. (also remember that Norway is rather thinly populated)
That was his goal. To hurt the Labour party, and he hurt them bad.
"It's wrong to say "that guy has dangerous ideas and should be censored", but it's another thing to say "that guy killed nearly 90 people to promote his manifesto, we should make sure he doesn't get what he wanted""
But that's still censorship, you've just added some spin. Simply put you can't have it both ways. Either individuals are free to speak their mind (regardless of how heinous you may find their viewpoint) or they aren't, and if they aren't that's censorship and oppression.
It has nothing to do with his ideas, it could have been a cake cookbook for all I care. What matters is that he used terror to promote it, and shouldn't be rewarded with the attention he desired.
I'm not calling for government censorship of the document, and I'm not saying I agree with anonymous, but dismissing it as censorship ignores their actual, more noble intentions.
Ah, but there's the meat of our disagreement: "noble intentions". I don't see anything noble about an attempt at censorship, be it by private citizens or some government agency. How is this any different from proposing random edits be inserted into Mein Kampf or the Koran?
What would be very effective and what they really should do is add and/or remove crucial details in his recipe on how to make fertilizer bombs. Or maybe the one about the body armor. Or maybe render the tips on how to contact criminals in order to acquire guns into insults that may get them killed in the process.
Who would not like the idea of these lone wolfs blowing themselfs to kingdom come in a deserted location. I, as a Norwegian, surely do.
His ideas should be repealed and refuted by reason and with an open debate. Anything other than that will make them stronger. There are many people who already believe them and, thanks to his actions, countless more will. They must be proved wrong and convinced they are wrong.
I downloaded a copy of the manifesto, read through the first few dozen pages or so, and skimmed through a few other parts.
The table of contents suggests 90-year war plan to unite Europe under the Knights Templar and restore pan-European identity. It doesn't need to be altered--it's already unbelievably stupid.
But he also knows a great deal about the political history of Europe and liberal thought, seen through a twisted lens. Furthermore, he follows a sort of Geert Wilders-like strain of Euro-nationalist ideas, dangerous ideas that have been gaining ground in parts of Europe. To alter this manifesto to include 'dumb things' is dangerous because first, it devalues the idiocy of his claims; second, readers will be more tempted to read it for the "good parts" while ignoring the "dumb parts"--who knows what parts were added, anyway? They'll be reading about the evils of Islam and multicultralism without understanding the fact--or dismissing it--that his ideas fit in a bizarre megalomaniacal framework of fantasy European domination, and deserve extreme scrutiny and mistrust.
A contrasting opinion: no sane person would really be moved by his ideas. But no-one wants to be a joke. Humiliating him, and his manifesto is an effective punishment, and maybe even a deterrent.
Wait. So their great idea is to give credence to his claims?
The guy was convinced there's an organised Marxist agenda actively working in western society to distort truth and keep its citizens in the dark. This will just vindicate his claims in the eyes of anyone who was willing to buy it.
And lets face it, the originals are going to be around a lot longer than the Anonymous spoofs because these kids are going to get bored and move onto something more interesting by next week/month/whatever. They can't outlast someone festering in hatred for years.
A concerted censorship effort by anyone is the worst thing that can happen to the internet. No matter how righteous you feel your cause (of course everyone feels theirs is). Simply, the only way for wayward ideas to be uprooted is to expose them to the full light of scrutiny. Pushing them into dank corners, veiled by mystery, away from public discourse, will always find fertile ground in minds of individuals on the fringes searching for someone to blame for their woes.
Yes. Their great idea is to give credence to his claims. And an audience.
Don't forget that an Anonymous was one of the forces behind the Streisand effect of Tom Cruise's Scientology video. They know exactly what they're doing.
Oh yeah. A bunch of teens and really bored adults photoshopping pictures, posting gay furry anthropomorph fanfic and child porn must know EXACTLY what they're doing.
This is the fucking streisand effect! This is the definition of it! They're trying to censor/cover up the original and make a big deal about it, so guess what's going to happen? More people will look for the original to see what it says. This is the worst Anon operation so far.
Some Anonymous also happen to be racists, neo-nazis and fascists. Some happen to be conspiracy nuts. Some happen to be well educated liberals. Some happen to be Hacker News readers.
The PDF with the MD5 9e72e26916c20481a1f6e4781fd4d505 predates the announcement. This was, also, the only copy I could find, except for a docx version that's probably identical. It was also the copy linked to in Anders Behring Breivik's wikipedia article.
Ridiculous, stupid, idiotic: these words cut communication with people who have differing views. Difficult to believe you sat through 1500 pages (why?) and have only that comment to make. On the positive side, you've more dedication or is it stamina (?) than me.
I don't know if this is actually a helpful action or not, and what, if any, consequences will arise, but it's certainly good marketing for Anonymous. Much of the public don't understand their more nuanced reasons for attacking companies like Sony. For many, Anonymous are those people who took out Playstation. Attempting to thwart the desires of someone who's universally accepted as a villain at least starts to complicate their image as villains themselves.
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[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 150 ms ] threadHe seems to be a nut, but that doesn't mean his ideas are wrong.
Agreed, but after reading a bit of it (I downloaded a file with MD5 of 9e72e26916c20481a1f6e4781fd4d505) I can spare you the pain. It's crap.
Still, his actions make it necessary to repeal all of his arguments and assumptions.
Really? James Watson and William Shockley both said very unpopular things about race. Shockley advocated a policy of sterilizing lower class black people. Should we repeal all use and knowledge of DNA and semiconductors?
Even if Shockley started killing black people as stage one eugenics, his actions would have absolutely no impact on his ideas. None.
You badly underestimate the perverse creativity of a paranoid schizophrenic. I've never seen that one but I've certainly seen things every bit as crazy.
(I have a bit of a soft spot for paranoid schizophrenic rantings; it's like outsider art for philosophy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsider_art)
The central idea of eugenics - that we can control our evolution the way we did with dogs or cattle - is not inherently flawed, but I wouldn't trust the evolution of our species to its current members. Before we think about building a better mankind, we need a better mankind.
This is a perfect example of why it's bad to reject an idea simply because it has unpleasant proponents. If we rejected eugenics based on unpleasant associations, thousands of Ashkenazi Jewish children would have died a horrible death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay%E2%80%93Sachs_disease#Scree...
Doing that might make people suspect that the original document is well-written and that the "stupid stuff" was added later.
"While the radical feminist movement is embraced by present day Political Correctness ideology, derived from cultural Marxism,"
There are 1500 pages of nonsensical ranting, elaborately constructed with the most tortuous logic. It would take weeks to parse it, weeks I intend to dedicate to far nobler purposes.
Regarding the supposed islamization of Europe, I think a large portion of the immigrants from muslim countries who moved to Europe belong to at least one of these groups: a)not muslim b)not interested in promoting islam c)looking to live in a more secular or free country d)like cold weather :)
Could Europe do anything to stop the muslim immigrants from wanting to move to Europe instead of deporting them when they are already living in Europe as Breivik suggests? Maybe stop selling weapons to the leaders of countries who kill their own people for holding peaceful demonstrations? Or stop the wars for cheap oil? Too bad there's no way to undo the European colonization of muslim countries, cause that would definitely have helped.
Facts: Current birth rate among indigenous Europeans in most if not all European countries is and has been below replacement level for a few decades. Most population growth in Europe in the last few decades has been from immigration from outside Europe. The birth rate among non-indigenous Europeans in European countries is higher than indigenous birth rate.
Projections (not fact): This trend doesn't appear to be changing and it looks like it will continue for many more decades. If the trend continues, in a few decades the genetic makeup of most Europeans will be more similar to that of non-European ethnic groups than to that of people who have lived in Europe for tens of thousands of years.
Arguments (assuming projections are true):
a) the projections above are a bad thing if you are an ethnic European and you predominantly carry genes that split from the ethnic groups of immigrants tens of thousands of years ago.
b) the projections above don't matter
c) the projections above are a good thing
State why the projections are likely to be wrong, debunk argument a) or justify why arguments b/c are correct. Proceed.
A good justification for (b) can be found by determining the genetic diversity of indigenous populations from thousands of years ago and comparing to the present day. As an example the UK has had many 'immigrants' in just the past two thousand years alone, with the Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans being notable topics on a good school's History lessons.
Nevertheless, I believe your arguments aren't particularly relevant to the issues held by these extremists, who fear Islamic culture more than they fear Muslims themselves. They view 'multiculturalism' as the replacement of indigenous culture. If you want to go anywhere with this, you have to debate this more nuanced (and less scientific) viewpoint.
You used the UK as an example, however, Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans were ethnic Europeans and these genetic groups didn't split from indigenous people in the British isles tens of thousands of years ago but more recently. The projection (not fact) above mentions that: "in a few decades the genetic makeup of most Europeans will be more similar to that of NON-European ethnic groups than to that of people who have lived in Europe for TENS OF THOUSANDS of years".
In any case if you were any of those groups, you would have opposed an invasion from a later group. Picts fought Roman "immigration". One might interpret this as Picts wanting their genetic makeup to be more representative in the overall population of the British isles.
I don't see how this justification might convince someone who is "an ethnic European and predominantly carries genes that split from the ethnic groups of immigrants tens of thousands of years ago" that the projection doesn't matter if they don't already believe so.
I wasn't aware that these extremists aren't concerned about genes. I haven't read the manifesto nor am I planning to. However, people can still have a go at debunking the genetic argument above if they wish.
Pre-modern European tribes did not place an emphasis on race; it didn't exist yet. Nor did they care about protecting the nation or their national heritage, as the concept of nation itself took centuries to form millenia later and only started playing a major geopolitical role with the French revolution. This isn't to say the tribesmen were multiculturalists; they had their own cultures and were often wary of outsiders, but mostly for reasons of self defense. But the supposed desire for genetic homogeneity didn't prevent Scandinavians from raiding the French and British coasts, abducting women, and forcibly mating with them, despite their cultural and genetic differences.
There is not just one ethnic European group, there are many.[1]
I didn't mention the word "race" in any of the comments above. However, scientists show us that different groups of people on Earth cluster together genetically closer than they do to other groups of people. [2] This is what one expects if the ancestors of these groups parted ways millennia ago. What you mention about Turks and Greeks is not unexpected, Greece and Turkey being practically next to each other, I don't know why you bring this up.
You are entirely correct about pre-modern European tribes and nation states. If the comment above implies something different from this although I believe it doesn't, then I made a mistake.
We moved to the concept of "race" about which you are absolutely correct. It's a sociopolitical construct and the meaning of this word has not been consistent throughout history. Remember though that I didn't use this word.
Back to the genetic argument, why doesn't the projection matter? (argument b) which grand-parent was justifying)
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Europe
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_clustering
A lot of people would be surprised to learn that America in 1500 was arguably less racist than America in 1850 or 1950 simply because the concept of "race" wasn't well established as being a particularly important way to categorize people.
There is a tendency to assume that people always thought in the categories that we use now.
It's funny how a tiny fraction of college educated white people in the West are the only people in the whole world to believe this. Everybody else knows what race and what white people are.
It is fair to point out that it's wrong to claim race doesn't exist. It does. But it's just as wrong to say that it's somehow immutable or a scientific concept (though, as pointed out above, human genetic clustering is a real phenomenon).
My thought is how come Europe managed to have CENTURIES of warfare (100 years war, 30 years, LOTS of civil wars, World War I, World War I and LOTS more) and most of these conflict were purely intra-Europeans? The Englishman in 1700 saw the Spaniard as being just as foreign as a Swede sees a Muslim today - probably more so if the Muslim lives in Sweden and speaks Swedish.
My point is just that if immigrants didn't exist people would still find something to fight over so this whole "immigrants are the very cause of social conflict" logic seems very dubious to me.
Um, no. The reconquista and various crusades were pan-european wars against muslims way before 1700. Englishmen died driving the Moors from Spain. There has definitely long been a European identity.
(2) England was protestant, Spain was Catholic.
(3) Because of the language difference probably most English couldn't communicate with most Spanish.
I am also taking into account the average modern Swede is probably fairly well educated and relatively liberal.
Of course I may have pushed things a bit to make a rhetorical point ;-)
It was my understanding that the projection comes simply from extrapolating the figures from the past few decades, apart form looking at the age pyramid of Europe and seeing how much immigration will be needed to pay for pensions, health care and so on. I haven't done the math myself so I can't tell you whether it is true. If this is a collaborative effort, then I think it would be wise for someone with the background to dismiss those projections mathematically.
However to show that such a demographic change is not such a statistical impossibility, look at US demographics. Ethnic Europeans were around 80% of the US population in the 80s, they are around 60% now and it is projected by the US government itself that in the next few decades they will be below 50%. You can bump that last percentage a little bit to account for those counted as Hispanic whites who are actually predominantly indigenous Europeans. I know US demographics are completely unrelated and have nothing to do with the OP which relates to Europe. This was simply to show how such demographic changes are not impossible. Nevertheless, there could be other variables which I'm not aware of, that make what we've seen in the US possible but impossible in Europe.
For that matter, birthrates are plummeting in many developing countries including the middle eastern ones - this is generally not acknowledged in these kind of projections.
Only idiots think other people should reproduce so they themselves won't feel so lonely.
Immigration discourages westerners from reproducing. Immigrants drive up housing costs, lower wages, and increase competition for school spots and good neighborhoods. All this makes family formation a more daunting proposition for people who aspire to maintain a middle class standard of living.
Western and East Asian birth rates probably reflect collective decisions that the lands are full. To respond by opening the borders to millions of foreigners makes no sense.
Home buyers drive up housing costs, which is generally considered a good thing - and mortgage bankers drive up costs way more than immigrants, and the people selling those houses really don't complain. Employers drive down wages, which is called "productivity", although I'm sure they'd like you to believe immigrants are at fault. Children increase competition for school spots - although their parents help pay for more school spots, so it typically works out well.
Western and East Asian birth rates reflect collective decisions that people have better things to do than have a bunch of kids. If you have a wife, she may understand this better than you do. (Apologies if you yourself are female.)
Puerto Rico is more full than Europe (it surprised me to learn this, too) - but poor, mostly. The birth rate is still quite high there. This alone probably doesn't refute your argument, but I hope it at least makes you think a little.
All in all, though, you seem to be saying that immigrants are at fault for economics working the way it does. I think you need to ask yourself, really carefully, who benefits when you ascribe these things to immigration.
Two other points though:
-Italian immigration wasn't anywhere near the scale of present day immigration to Europe. In other words the percentages in the example above aren't close to the real ones, however, the projection says that the percentages of European v.s. non-European genes would be as low as that or lower.
-French and Italians cluster genetically right next to each other compared to current immigrating populations. Now why this makes a difference for some people, read this other comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2808602
. The current trends lead to a projection of a different genetic makeup than the current
. The projection is a bad thing
Therefore, the current trends are bad.
But the argument fails to address why the projection is bad. That premise needs to be justified for the argument to be valid.
Second, I don't think a change in the genetic makeup (which is what the projections point to) would necessarily mean the death of the Western civilization. In fact, the many Western values have already spread beyond the West, leading to miscegenation of cultures. The same would be true for an Europe with a higher number of people with different genetic makeup.
Personally, I'm more worried about the loss of local values in the face of the giant which is the US, which has much more power to disseminate them than any Muslim country.
A change in the genetic makeup of Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria from Christian ethnicities to Arab certainly lead to the death of those cultures. You don't understand that races and cultures are two very intertwined things.
One might argue that it's a bad thing at the DNA level for your DNA, not for you as a person. If you make the distinction between you as a person and your genetic makeup, then there is nothing bad, since whose genes live on Earth in a thousand years is irrelevant, it could be elephants and you would be as happy.
If you go down to the DNA level, one might say that it's a bad thing, because DNA's objective is to survive and spread. Just like life itself. If the genetic makeup that makes you European disappears or is less prevalent than it was, then you could say that the DNA you carry did not reach its objective or was less successful in doing so than other groups. Even if the difference between your DNA and that of the group that succeeds is just 0.5%, your European DNA branch split from the other tens of thousands of years ago.
You could say now that whatever mutations were acquired during those years failed. Those tens of thousands of years wasted, your most recent ancestors that went through: famines, wars, disease, ice ages, etc.. might just as well have committed suicide and saved themselves the trouble (assuming you're nothing but a thing that carries DNA).
Sex is there to help the offspring of two organisms survive. If they replace themselves with 2 children, then that's 50% and 50%, even and fair. What the projection says though is that the DNA of Europeans won't be 50% European in Europe and 50% in immigrant's original countries. It would be much less than that in Europe with current trends and nowhere near in the immigrant's original countries. So you wouldn't be getting that fair share.
When did DNA get a will of its own? =)
It's wrong to say "that guy has dangerous ideas and should be censored", but it's another thing to say "that guy killed nearly 90 people to promote his manifesto, we should make sure he doesn't get what he wanted"
Quite successfully, unfortunately. Those kids in the camp, especially the older ones, were probably going to fill the ranks of the real Labour party later on in life, politicians of the future. Now their future intelligentsia is either dead or suffering PTSD. (also remember that Norway is rather thinly populated)
That was his goal. To hurt the Labour party, and he hurt them bad.
But that's still censorship, you've just added some spin. Simply put you can't have it both ways. Either individuals are free to speak their mind (regardless of how heinous you may find their viewpoint) or they aren't, and if they aren't that's censorship and oppression.
I'm not calling for government censorship of the document, and I'm not saying I agree with anonymous, but dismissing it as censorship ignores their actual, more noble intentions.
Who would not like the idea of these lone wolfs blowing themselfs to kingdom come in a deserted location. I, as a Norwegian, surely do.
His ideas should be repealed and refuted by reason and with an open debate. Anything other than that will make them stronger. There are many people who already believe them and, thanks to his actions, countless more will. They must be proved wrong and convinced they are wrong.
The table of contents suggests 90-year war plan to unite Europe under the Knights Templar and restore pan-European identity. It doesn't need to be altered--it's already unbelievably stupid.
But he also knows a great deal about the political history of Europe and liberal thought, seen through a twisted lens. Furthermore, he follows a sort of Geert Wilders-like strain of Euro-nationalist ideas, dangerous ideas that have been gaining ground in parts of Europe. To alter this manifesto to include 'dumb things' is dangerous because first, it devalues the idiocy of his claims; second, readers will be more tempted to read it for the "good parts" while ignoring the "dumb parts"--who knows what parts were added, anyway? They'll be reading about the evils of Islam and multicultralism without understanding the fact--or dismissing it--that his ideas fit in a bizarre megalomaniacal framework of fantasy European domination, and deserve extreme scrutiny and mistrust.
People who would already tend to agree with his points might either ignore the added "dumb" parts, or just agree with them.
The guy was convinced there's an organised Marxist agenda actively working in western society to distort truth and keep its citizens in the dark. This will just vindicate his claims in the eyes of anyone who was willing to buy it.
And lets face it, the originals are going to be around a lot longer than the Anonymous spoofs because these kids are going to get bored and move onto something more interesting by next week/month/whatever. They can't outlast someone festering in hatred for years.
A concerted censorship effort by anyone is the worst thing that can happen to the internet. No matter how righteous you feel your cause (of course everyone feels theirs is). Simply, the only way for wayward ideas to be uprooted is to expose them to the full light of scrutiny. Pushing them into dank corners, veiled by mystery, away from public discourse, will always find fertile ground in minds of individuals on the fringes searching for someone to blame for their woes.
At the very best this is misguided cowardice.
Don't forget that an Anonymous was one of the forces behind the Streisand effect of Tom Cruise's Scientology video. They know exactly what they're doing.
Oh yeah. A bunch of teens and really bored adults photoshopping pictures, posting gay furry anthropomorph fanfic and child porn must know EXACTLY what they're doing.
This is the fucking streisand effect! This is the definition of it! They're trying to censor/cover up the original and make a big deal about it, so guess what's going to happen? More people will look for the original to see what it says. This is the worst Anon operation so far.
The PDF with the MD5 9e72e26916c20481a1f6e4781fd4d505 predates the announcement. This was, also, the only copy I could find, except for a docx version that's probably identical. It was also the copy linked to in Anders Behring Breivik's wikipedia article.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8658...