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Ask HN: Should I even bother competing for React jobs?

20 points by brailsafe ↗ HN
It seems like the state of hiring is getting even more ridiculous, and I've struggled to find anything for over a year. In particular, almost every frontend job runs some homework or hackerrank thing based on React, regardless of whether it's specified as the most important requirement. I don't tend to win these competitions, and I don't tend to use React, and it's an unsustainable way to live. I didn't jump on the bandwagon meanwhile about everyone else in the world did. I could probably refine my knowledge of it a bit, but most 'React devs' have been grinding it out professionally for years. Is it even worth trying to conpete in a massive market like this where the skill is so commonplace? Is there another area I could focus my energy like Vue where maybe there isn't as many people out there? I can only do so many 3-8 hour react based tests that I ultimately miss a test case on or simply don't compare favourably to the 1000 other people who applied.

More broadly, I'm a programmer, I've been doing it for years, and can't make money doing it, so I'm in a manual labour job that ends soon and pays like shit. I know JS quite well, learn quickly, and establish good rapport with colleagues, but that doesn't seem to be effective. Wtf do I do to actually put an ostensibly useful skill to actual use?

44 comments

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giantg2
"Wtf do I do to actually put an ostensibly useful skill to actual use?"

I wish I could tell you. I have a job as a developer and it sucks (at least it pays somewhat ok). I don't get to use any real skills. All the work is bullshit that nobody else wants to do.

Maybe try switching to different tech or different types of companies? I plan to switch from my current team to something else. Not sure what I'll end up doing. It looks like there's not a lot of opportunity out there for me, so it will probably take a long time.

brailsafe
That's generally how I felt in some of my previous positions. There was no point to the work, I never met the customers, but at least it was technically interesting. My manual labour job is much more rewarding honestly. Maybe if I land something I'll keep an extra part time gig around to keep me sane.
908B64B197
Where did you graduate from? What's the local industry like around you?
brailsafe
I'm mostly self taught aside from a diploma and some formal CS. It's a decent market, but the crux of the question was less about the overall market, because obviously every company is hiring React people, but also vastly more people are applying because it's a commodity skill. Basically lots of huge funnels to enter into. I'm not a new grad at all.
cableshaft
Maybe focus more on backend skills? Those tend to change a lot slower. SQL knowledge is still plenty marketable, even with no-SQL and GraphQL out there.

I'm still getting a good amount of attention from recruiters even though I have zero professional React experience. But then again I do have some decent Angular experience.

istorical
If you've been programming for years and can't get an entry level job, it might be that your presentation skills / communication skills are the weak link. Might be worth doing a mock interview with a professional whose job it is to help you get a job (you may have to pay them for their time) to make sure there's nothing obviously wrong with the way you are presenting yourself. As far as react goes, have you done work on front-end only or back-end as well? Do you have experience with databases and writing SQL? Getting a full-stack engineer role often requires less 'know this exact framework/language' if you can do some simple technical screens online where you can select from multiple languages or in-person via pseudocode.

When you say you can't get a job doing it, how many positions did you apply to? Even for a competitive candidate with a degree, you might have to send out 50 applications to get in pipeline with 10-15, ultimately end up with 2-3 offers.

Last, what country are you from?

brailsafe
I don't seem to have too much of an issue speaking with people, simply based on how comfortable the conversation usually is and proceeding to next steps, but it could be a weaker signal than I think and so I'll certainly consider it. As well, I've been exploring fullstack positions too, only just recently though. I think I'd be capable in those respects.

I've definitely sent out (conservatively) beyond 75 applications and participated in 25-60 interviews (off the top of my head) depending on what you consider an interview to be. I'd say I have no problem getting into some sort of pipeline, but in terms of participation in interview processes, most now start (some not even speaking to you first) with some hour to 3 hour hackerrank test. It's not feasible to increase my coverage that way.

I'm in the Canadian market, with a little exposure to remote jobs in the U.S and elsewhere.

Spooky23
Look for a job in public sector to get some paid experience. They are always behind the curve on stuff like interview practices and you won’t find the stupid testing bullshit. Either you’ll like it and stay or can build relationships with contractors or others and get referrals or other opportunities.

Personally, i think front end web work sucks, but I’m more of a systems programmer that ended up in a sysadmin+engineer role before SRE was a thing.

brailsafe
I made it seem probably like I have no paid experience, but in reality my resume is just spotty, partly for the same reason I'm asking the question. I have about 4 years paid work on specifically frontend, and do find it awfully boring these days, then about 2-6 years doing other things like python, php, and sysadmin type work over about 10 years since my first paid developer type position. I've lost a few jobs, usually as a result of finding myself in less than ideal circumstances and burning out like hell. It becomes a self-perpetuating circumstance that's proving to be generally very difficult to buuld a career with. I really enjoy, and am capable at programming. I am a programmer and will always be, but I suppose it's an identity crisis to be faced with no ability to put it to use and find something else.
readonthegoapp
i would look to 10x that number of applications, minimum, within the next seven days, with a good mix of targeted (cover letters) vs. spray-and-pray.

i mean, 75? i do that in a day. half a day.

not every day, but sometimes. especially when i'm focussed.

i think there are certain truisms about the job market that cut across all sorts of lines.

* it's finicky - you're hot one day, the next day you are trash * it's cruel * it's humilitating and degrading and etc. * it takes work to find work. * it takes a lot of work to find decent work. * it takes insane amts of work to find good work.

if you're actually getting interviews and not closing on anything, and you're actually technically proficient, i suspect you're losing the jobs b/c of non-expertise-related reasons.

you could be black. old. a woman. gay. you might wear the wrong color. you might correct your interviewer. etc.

all sorts of reasons that you can't really control.

or...

you could be an asshole. act entitled/disinterested. haven't prepared. have a shitty attitude. not praise the people/company enough. etc.

i think it's great that you know you want to do react. i'd double-down on that, keep becoming more of a react expert, start participating in _anything_ react-related - open source, making money, volunteer teaching, whatever.

and when you talk to recruiters, ask them what you need to do to be more marketable.

often they'll just say, "ok, i need you to add these five things to your resume" -- so you can do it or not, but once in a while you can get an honest-ish assessment. you have to convince them that you're not gonna cry like a little baby when you ask them for honest feedback -- but they'll give it to you.

i'm guessing you don't have money for fake interviews, but if you do, that might be worth a go.

in my recent search i was offered high level architect role and turned down for entry level support role, so you cna't really go looking for deep answers if you want to stay sane, imo.

at least if you're in Cannuck-ville, you still have healthcare. lucky bastard.

if you're resume spotty, you sometimes have to sidestep a bit -- so maybe look at dev-adjacent roles.

- tech support - dev evangelist - code teacher/trainer - tech documentation

in terms of taking tests, i would not do them. my general rule - with an occasional exception - is i make the company spend the same amount of time i'm spending.

so i'll whiteboard with them.

i'll do any kind of tech screen on the phone.

but tests? not likely.

i did my aws architect associate cert in part to stand out but also in part b/c i wanted to get better and in part b/c i was just interested in the material.

i don't think it's helped at all, but i also don't think it's hurt. if anything it leads to too many architecture-type roles being thrown my way.

point is - i dig certs, at a minimum, because they help you get demonstrably better at some skill, they boost your confidence, and a bunch of other things like help building camraderie with others, generated interest from recruiters and employers, helps you do your job better, etc.

so i see no real reason to stay away from hacker rank and the others if you're using them to tighten up your game.

anyways, good luck. react is a beast.

i'm sure others have mentioned, but having some simple-ish, signature react app (or apps) deployed with source on github, i would think, would _probably_ be the absolute minimum i would expect a person to have if i was going to hire them for a react position.

i can't speak for anybody else - i only hire contractors on upwork and similar to build web apps for me - but i could see how a hiring manager would want to be able to look at your code and quickly see if you're full of shit or not, if you have any genuine interest in react/tech/coding, etc.

not sure you can tell them from a repo&#...

brailsafe
> i mean, 75? i do that in a day. half a day.

This was truly a conservative estimate. I have no idea how many, but it's likely far higher. Doing 10x this in a week isn't really likely, at least not for the local area across any industry. It's probably worth trying to shoot for much higher.

> * it's finicky - you're hot one day, the next day you are trash * it's cruel * it's humilitating and degrading and etc. * it takes work to find work. * it takes a lot of work to find decent work. * it takes insane amts of work to find good work.

Ya, agreed.

> at least if you're in Cannuck-ville, you still have healthcare. lucky bastard.

Also agreed. I try not to take it for granted. Dental ain't a penny tho.

> In terms of taking tests, i would not do them. my general rule - with an occasional exception - is i make the company spend the same amount of time I'm spending. So I'll whiteboard with them. I'll do any kind of tech screen on the phone.

I feel the same way. Problem I'm seeing is that there just isn't that many places I've seen that aren't using the technique I described as either the very first step, or the last, and making their decision without any real interaction with anyone. It's soul-destroying.

> and when you talk to recruiters, ask them what you need to do to be more marketable.

I don't bother with recruiters that often, aside from a select few. I haven't seen much positive come from it. Feedback in general though is something I always ask for, and it can be a pain in the ass to get. Even at the end of an interview chain, I'll get a "thanks for participating" and nothing, so I have to battle with the hiring manager for even a grain of something specific.

Thanks for the extensive answer. It's nice to know that people will actually take the time to offer some advice. I'm in a bind, and it's really hard to stay motivated after such an extended period.

Nextgrid
A lot of companies use leetcode-style tests as the first step which means you can’t even talk to a human beforehand and leverage your soft skills to get ahead.
eyelidlessness
If your skill set is primarily around JS, you may have better luck targeting:

- full-stack positions with a Node backend. Their hiring process may be less frontend framework specific

- positions with more than one front-end framework in their stack. They will usually care more about a more general skill set

brailsafe
Good suggestion. The latter is certainly what I'm hoping for, in the latest case the company did have a more general skill-set requirement, and I proceeded through the first two rounds without issue. They then issued me a test limited to 8 hours in React (which I really had no issue with technically), which I hesitantly started hoping to get it done quickly. It took me longer than I thought, simply because I wasn't expecting it to be in React and it had some finicky bits, but not terribly long. I ended up ending it at around 5/5 test cases on the first and 3/5 on the second due to time constraints. That was a week ago, they rejected me this morning after I prompted them. I get the sense nobody actually looked at it, or they had such a large funnel that they were able to pick some specific thing they didn't like.
dyeje
If you aren't getting opportunities because you can't pass React tests, then it sounds like you should practice React. There is plenty of work to go around, don't waste your time worrying about how long others have been doing React.
brailsafe
I meant to be a little more specific with my language, such that it's not entirely that I'm not passing the tests, but even if I do, companies are now not even seemingly thinking about me as a candidate until I pass that stage completely. So maybe I'll pass all test cases, submit it, and they'll send me an automated rejection.
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Mc91
Large companies and startups are both looking for React programmers. Large companies can afford to pay competitive salaries, and the wheels for hiring can move slowly. Many startups can't compete on salary, thus they have to settle for devs who don't win the React competitions. So maybe think of looking at smaller companies.
brailsafe
I feel like I wrote my question in a way that indicates a lack of React positions, but it's more about that most companies are looking for only React developers, and everyone else seems to be react developers. I don't struggle with React, it's pretty easy actually, and I have a small amount of professional experience writing it, but because it can boil down to basically who completes the test and who completes it fastest, I don't even know if it's worth trying to compete with everyone who's most likely been doing React exclusively since they got out of bootcamp.
dingusthemingus
Il just assume you are in the US market. Sounds like you need some guidance on the interview process, you might be applying to the wrong type of jobs, you might want to be more selective/directed with your approach/goals. Maybe you are unable to adequatly prepare for interviews due to your current day job. You should have a plan, how long you can practice interviewing before running out of money, and then go from there. Maybe you can try get a less physically taxing day job so you can study/practice more after work until you get a great dev job.

Ive interviewed for some basic software engineer roles in the US NY region with Node in the last 2 years that basically just wanted basic JS experience to work there without any production Node experience. No 8 hour tests, just general discussions, and build a CRUD app that handles X type of object.

Programs like Outco(costs money) exist to help software engineers improve their interviewing skills/try get more money in their next job, even if they are experts with great experience they take these classes because interviewing can be hard for some devs.

If i were you i would spend a day or two researching the current state of interviewing for JS/react roles. Its a big market, lots of devs talking about succeeding in it online.

Start talking to currently employed software engineers for specific advice on your current issues. Fish for referrels, this is the biggest way companies hire nowadays in US in my opinion.

brailsafe
I'm in Canada, but have been applying to some U.S based positions. The availability of jobs focussed on React and the availability of people for those positions is the issue, not the problem, because of the reduction of the hiring process down into whoever will spend x time doing a test, and then simply who did it fastest or best. So the question is not wjether it's a marketable skill, but is it worth attempting to fight up that kind of a stream.

I think part of this is exactly why I can apply to U.S jobs. Now that arguably everyone in the world can apply to every job in the world, the situation seems untenable unless you have a spotless and thorough record.

dingusthemingus
I assume Canada job circumstances would differ slightly than US, also less opportunities i assume so i agree your plan of looking at US makes sense,

Just a note, in the US, my understanding is most companies are not planning on offshoring most jobs overseas even though they are remote jobs basically in the short term. We all do expect more of that to happen in the future though.

My company is US has a deal with the city its in, the state its in as well. Even though we are all remote now (except for the hardware people), all of the employees are expected to live in a commutable distance to the office so post covid going back to work will be a thing.

I think companies get tax breaks and have agreements with municipalities to bring jobs to an area.

heckingoodtimes
I’m in my 30s and was coming off the back of part-time retail jobs before I landed my first dev job.

I have a B.A. and taught myself programming (including React). Over the course of 4 years, my gross income went to something like 25k to 160k (in the U.S.) because I learned React.

So, I guess, don’t compete if you’re not up to it, but if you’re willing, the jobs and monies are out there.

You just need to get your first dev job, stick it out for a year or two (even if it sucks), and you should be a lot more desirable going forward. Do whatever you need to do to get that first one under your belt.

I personally know another person (bootcamp grad). Got their first job at 80k and is about to double their salary after a couple years.

brailsafe
I think I didn't make it obvious that I've also done this professionally for years, just not specifically React, but everyone else in the same market started with React years ago professionally and now I'm competing with them because everyone also bet on React. My last dev job did have me bringing in around 110k CAD which I'm perfectly happy with.

Grats on putting yourself in a great position my friend :)

heckingoodtimes
Ohhh! I wonder why you’re having so much trouble.

I’m in a very competitive market. I also refuse to do leetcode and whiteboards, and will only do small, clearly defined take-homes (since I lack a portfolio and kind of enjoy them).

I don’t bother with the alphabet companies (no interest and don’t want to waste my time with their interview process).

Maybe try targeting your companies more selectively?

And thanks, by the way! :)

Life-changing skillset.

brailsafe
In general I do expect to be a bit disadvante, because my resume is pretty spotty. If you're starting fresh, I'd wager you'd have a better shot honestly. But that's sort of a discrete aspect, because I'm not having too much trouble actually getting the interviews.
davidajackson
If you don't want to compete on React jobs: Optimize for companies that do leetcode interviews, because it's 45 minutes versus sometimes 3-5 hours just for a first stage. Don't do long take homes, unless you really want the job. Take homes are always eeking one more hour out of you, especially when you get to the 'nice to haves' sections...

If you do want to compete on React: Find a way to set yourself apart. Maybe start a blog on React basics and start posting it here on HN? Then drop that in your job application process somehow when you have enough articles/projects.

brailsafe
What I'm seeing is that a majority of companies are doing 1.5 - 3 hour leetcodes as an automatically generated first step, akin to Amazon. I haven't yet passed Amazon's test, but I suppose if I spent time trying to get there, it would hypothetically carry over to other leetcode interviews. The problem is that getting a job is a crazy numbers game, and if it takes 3 hours to apply to a single job, realistically I have to stay unemployed and grind those for 10 hours a day to even have a shot. Admittedly it's not quite there yet, but it's pretty bad. Companies now have an extremely cheap way to search for and normalize all candidates, sometimes spending as little as 30 mins to 1 hr of their own time per successful applicant that makes it to the end. Not that I necessarily want to work for a company that does this, but it's a bit scary.

It's not just tech either. I just spoke to a random dude on the street who expressed uneasiness at his automated robot interview (his words) for a part-time delivery driver position. 50 self-administered questions, 1 audio recording, and then a follow up where I think he gets to answer similarly delivered questions to an automated system. It's a bit distopian.

davidajackson
Probably the most actionable advice I can give is don't apply to jobs that take 3 hours to apply to. I forget what sites it is, but some just have you upload your resume once. Don't do the ones that force you to fill out all experiences manually, unless you really want the job.
brailsafe
Ya, that's a tricky one because they're not all the same. Most of the time it's not ourely that it takes 3 hours to literally just fill out an application, but the application is immediately met with an automated (emailed) test. So it's usually not something I can select out at the job posting level.
yuppie_scum
This is the most candidate-friendly job market in decades. The winds are behind you.
brailsafe
That's what I keep hearing ;) But really it only seems that way if you get or have been very lucky.
muzani
I think it's very friendly. I don't think I'm lucky though. It only took 7 months of interviews to land a new job.
brailsafe
It's nice to hear that I'm not the only one, but I'm sorry it took so long and congrats on landing one. The way people are talking about it, it would seem like you can just say yes to a recruiter and automatically increase your salary by 50k.
muzani
I enjoyed the process though. It's like dating, but as the hot girl. It's a bad place to be in if you urgently need a new job, though.
brailsafe
That's a nice outlook. Maybe I can reframe my perspective and find a way to enjoy it again.
muzani
React is supposed to be the easy way to get a job. If you feel the market is too competitive, try something else.

Ruby on Rails is probably the next most popular web stack.

Mobile is another form of "front end". Try Flutter, or native Android/iOS.

Vue and Angular are quite popular too. I feel like React has mostly been adopted because it's a replaceable part. But there's plenty of good web stacks too.

It's all a balance of risk and returns, and you want to hedge your bets.

brailsafe
I think I might just do that. My concern is largely about just how much of a double ended commodity it seems to be. It's very easy to find people and very easy to learn, so it's very easy to cast a massive net and compare everyone. I asked this question initially because I was just rejected from yet another apparently more general JS stack oriented agency type place that ended up testing me exclusively on React. I didn't struggle with it, but I certainly wouldn't have timed better than someone who had touched it more recently. I only had time available to me to get through 8/10 test cases, and I'm pretty sure they just saw that and considered me someone who can't write code.
ozzythecat
What country are you in? And is front end development really your passion?

For me, I did web development for a few years earlier in my career and then moved on to native mobile and web services work.

I don’t have a particular interest in web and feel there’s myriad complex tooling and endless web frameworks, where React is the more recent hotness. How many different ways do we need to solve a problem, and why weren’t the older ways sufficient isn’t clear to me. The web dev space has almost infinite solutions to problems that don’t exist. But I digress.

I’d encourage you to look at mobile or working in services. There are also data engineering related roles where you can write code (Spark, ETL) and work with folks who build ML models.

My point is - if you want to code, there are many options to explore outside of web development.

brailsafe
I feel the same way, and I'm in Canada. I absolutely do not have 'passion' for anything related to development of any kind really, at least not anymore, and I think it's a silly word to use for typing code into a screen. I've done a little native mobile app learning, a little backend/sysadmin stuff in Python, and a little Go and C++ just for academic interest. My connection with various aspects of CS and programming is about particular interests, and no I don't and have never felt that about React in any way. Computers and programming lend us a lot of power if used in novel ways, and I think that's worth something, but I wouldn't describe it as passion. It can be isolating, it can be pointless and damaging to our bodies, it can be intensely boring and frustrating and not stimulating. That said, Vue is neat and interesting for some reason, but not so much so that I'm building arbitrary projects in it weekly.
Nextgrid
Could you try create or showcase existing personal projects to demonstrate your skills and the decline any tests and point them to those projects explaining that spending 3 hours on a test for every job application isn’t sustainable?
TechBro8615
Yes, even if you are terrible, nobody knows how to interview, so if nothing else, just by chance you’ll eventually land a job and an opportunity to prove yourself.

If you’re not good at the HackerRank thing, then don’t do it. There are hundreds of startups out there completely desperate for frontend developers right now. Find them and convince them to hire you, even if just for a month.

DarrenDev
Take React off your Resume entirely, that way you should be able to filter out the jobs you won't get anyway, and you should be able to say no to any online test that requires React.

I'd also look again at the type of companies you're applying to. Insurance companies, banks, pharma, government agencies - Enterprise software basically - these tend not to be using the most cutting edge front end frameworks.

Also, if you have even a small amount of experience in Enterprise type backend technologies you should be able to land a backend or full stack role at one of these types of companies. .Net, Java, etc.