Ask HN: Should it be legal to switch privacy policies after purchase?
Recently found that my LG Dryer & Washer are uploading/downloading 1GB of data per day. I looked into it after the LGThinQApp's privacy policy changed to gather information like personal information like DOB, gender, voice recordings, profile photos, network activity: "such as URL, ad block info, redirect URL, bookmark history etc.. Their privacy policy looks like it was meant for instagram..
This wasn't the case at all before when I purchased the product. The nice feature was that I could preload my clothes and trigger them to wash/dry before I'm about to get home. That's all I expected from this. I even called support and asked them to deactivate my account but they said this can only be done through the app. And I can't use the app unless I accept the new terms and services.
edit: added the privacy policy link here https://us.m.lgaccount.com/spx/customer/terms_detail?country=US&language=en-US&terms_type=A_ITG_PRV
73 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 145 ms ] threadI do not believe changes to terms after purchase should be allowed unless required by law. We need a lemon-like law for consumer electronics.
Also, I believe it is important to not buy connected devices and appliances that are not entertainment purposes only.
I’d rather pay $200 extra for a dumb tv that will last be 10 years and guaranteed to not start showing me ads in the menu screen someday.
Yeah I'm not sure what the solution is. Maybe, I'm naive but I never expected this. I know better now. Regarding the smart t thing, I 100% agree, my vizio smart tv started getting ads on startup that I need to manually exit out of.
You do understand that this is a standard corporate gaslight?
Any pointers to some would be much appreciated!
I have a smart TV and it's simply never been connected to the Internet. That makes it pretty dumb.
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1: As in I was halfway through writing a comment to ask how these were sufficiently different from regular monitors to justify that markup, before realizing that I'm an idiot.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/LG-Electronics-LED-lit-Monitor-43UD79...
However, commercial TVs leave a lot to be desired. They generally put the focus on other aspect, like higher brightness, instead of color accuracy because they are intended to be used as signage. Hotel TVs tend to have hidden and hard to navigate sub-menus so guests dont mess with the settings too much.
Realistically, its easier to get a smart TV and just not connect it to the internet.
Google TV is also coming with a Basic TV mode for their Sony and TCL models. Basic mode is supposed to reduce the menus to a few basic functions like input switching, etc. [0]
[0]https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/the-best-feature-of-...
To this day if I accidentally click the wrong input button it asks me to accept the ToS. But since I haven't and won't accept them at least that's something.
Though I think it should be extremely illegal to change the terms of service for an appliance. Software maybe, a service maybe, but not a washing machine or TV! What are you supposed to do if you disagree, try to return it 3 years after purchase? Will the manufacturer pay for you to spend your time packing it up to send back to them for a full refund (of purchase price)?
Of course not. The warranty and return periods are up, you have no choices.
In my mind: I purchased the washer/dryer with these specific features in mind. Now I no longer have access to what I bought and I'm being locked out of using these features unless I accept the new terms.
On top of having to deal with, at minimum, going out and buying a new washer drier on my own dime until I win said court case, there's no guarantee you'd win (it's the app ToS, not literally the appliance, correct?) nor that it would ever compensate for your time spent dealing with it.
Sure, you might have a good case, but when you're working full time and have a family this is not a good use of your time. It requires a level of committment that I shouldn't have to have in order to fix a unilateral change to the terms I agree to when actually making a literally $2k+ purchase. I can't just float them a loan for $2k to buy replacement equipment while suing them.
https://www.sceptre.com/TV/4K-UHD-TV-category1category73.htm...
I haven't investigated fully but they don't mention WiFi or YouTube support on the few products I checked.
I wonder how this should apply to planned obsolescence of devices like smartphones.
On one hand, it's obscene that manufacturers expect us to routinely spend ~$1k on a device that will in the best case scenario last for three years. There's no inherent reason that a flagship Samsung from 2017 shouldn't be perfectly serviceable today, and likewise for a Pixel 6 or iPhone 13 in 2030. However, the discontinuation of security updates makes it so that for all practical purposes they are not.
On the other hand, we can't exactly compel speech or labor. It would be one thing if there were a kill switch triggered after N years, but in this case the obsolescence isn't caused by an active update, rather a lack thereof.
Here's a possible middle ground:
1. Block device manufacturers from arbitrarily deprecating hardware. We can't compel the release of new software, but we can block the release of new software. Require manufacturers to submit a filing with request for approval before the release of any new mobile OS update, which must include an exhaustive list of all supported devices. In the event that a device is dropped from the list in a subsequent filing, it must be explained to the satisfaction of regulators that a specific hardware limitation makes continued support for the device problematic or impractical. Given approval to drop support for a device from an OS release, there would be no obligation on the manufacturer to backport security updates to prior releases.
2. Block component manufacturers from arbitrarily deprecating hardware. Any hardware included in a publicly available consumer electronic device must have its manufacturer commit to providing up-to-date driver software with support for the latest OS for the lifetime of the device. Failure to provide this within a certain time frame (say, three months) following the request of a device manufacturer would open them up to a lawsuit, wherein they could be compelled to publish the most recent release of the driver as open source / public domain. #1 would provide the incentive for each device manufacturer to proactively enforce this, as their entire product roadmap would be effectively frozen if they allowed component manufacturers to drag their feet.
3. Ban irreversible bootloader locking in new devices. Maybe an initial bootloader lock would be acceptable, but power users should have some way to override the lock and install a custom ROM without relying on vulnerabilities in the software.
Sure, on some level that's arguably not wrong. Most individuals are unlikely to be personally targeted by hackers, and even if so might have less to lose from a hack than the cost of a new phone.
Even taking that for granted, I would suggest that it's in the interest of the federal government to use its regulatory power for the purpose of improving our national cybersecurity at scale. Letting millions of people continue to run unpatched devices because the alternative is prohibitively expensive is a disaster waiting to happen.
Something like:
This device will share:
- Age
- Gender
- Voice commands
- Wifi name
- Location
If a manufacturer wants more data they have to change the tag at the store and only the newer device will have the additional data collection. If the manufacturer pushes an update to get more data on users that have the older tag they get a $X fine per affected user, where X is ideally a real cost-prohibiting amount like 25-50% of the price of the device.
Is there any reason why we can't have something like that?
1: https://wireshark.org
2: https://wiki.wireshark.org/HowToDecrypt802.11
If my washer started using 1 gb per day without notice, and I received a bill for extra data, I woukd be pissed.
I do own an LG washer, but thabkfully a lower end model without internet connectivity.
I do not look forward to the day you CAN'T buy a non-smart appliance like a fridge or water heater.
Also, be aware that repairing a purely electrical appliance is fairly simple for most small appliance repair businesses. However smart appliances can be setup to only allow "Authorized" repairs. I've seen this for some electric bikes like Bosch bottom bracket motors where you need specific USB keys to work on or modify them that are VERY expensive.
This is an entirely different issue. Even if it's a dumb tv, the manufacturer will probably not prioritize repairability.
I'm guilty of treating most items as disposable, I assume whenever my $300 TV blows out I'll just need to walk on down to Best Buy and buy a new one.
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/c/BraxMe/videos [video list]
A quick Google seems to show they don't have built in voice control. That's just a huge amount of data if it's not sending some sort of media back home. Could always be poor programming for logging or something, but that wouldn't be my first suspect.
The Data Minimisation principle says you should only collect what you need.
They can soft-opt you in to certain things if you have a business relationship (news letter) but this should be opt-outable, I think even at purchase time.
It would also not permit the extension of data collection without consent (or another acceptable basis, but that would be unlikely). In the case of a service online, I guess you could potentially say if you don't like it, don't use the service but with hardware, I don't think this would fly.
I would contact my local data protection authority and alert them of this practice. I guess LG would get in some trouble :). My initial instinct is that this collecting this info from a washer-dryer is wildly illegal.
I'm pretty sure (again in Spain) you could sue them and win, but you'd have to carry the cost of suing them AND the benefit would probably be small so not many individuals do. Some nice consumer defense groups do sue these companies and win again and again, which is amazing IMHO. Specially with the last ~10 years new data protection laws these shady practices are more and more illegal.
> And I can't use the app unless I accept the new terms and services.
For example Whatsapp keeps asking me to accept the new terms and I keep closing the popup, and still can use the app. We'll see how things end up, but for now they do not "force you" to accept them (though I'd say asking for it N times/day everyday might be considered harassment).
Until I had to take my phone in for repairs and I wiped it beforehand (because I always wipe my devices before handing them in).
Upon restoring backup, I couldn't get past the "accept terms" screen so I was effectively locked out of my WhatsApp account.
Begrudgingly, I accepted them but gave no permissions (contacts, camera, mic, etc) and immediately requested deletion of my account.
Definitely not ideal as they had some of that information on their servers already.
Your best bet is probably to just not use the app from now on. Go ahead and accept the new terms, then disenroll in however you need to. I have an LG dryer/washer pair, but never downloaded the app, didn't register the equipment, and it's not on my network but still works fine. You can't remotely trigger a wash, but you can set a delayed start from the onboard control panel, and as long as you're reasonably accurate in your prediction of when you'll be coming home, it'll have the same effect as what you're doing with a remote trigger.
I think the only thing would get people to act is to say Russians/Chinese are spying on people with microwaves/tvs.. Otherwise media won't report on this.
Of course most of the time changes are not needed at all to get the job done, just to violate your privacy.
If a device was bought with privacy as a feature and then it flips 180 and you're locked out of using it with no recourse for returning it. To me it that seems as a clear violation of a consumer's rights.
As a consumer and employee, I feel it would be great to get rid of that language. I doubt congress will do anything about it since that would require a massive change to contract law.
Paying ~$2k for appliances that then try to extract extra money out of you with targeted advertising (for what! you already bought the equipment!).
Bookmark history! Dear god.
I was recently incredibly annoyed with my TV "threatening" me that if I didn't accept the regular new privacy policies, I would lose functionality (of course, with the 50 pages of on-screen legalese that you're supposed to read before accepting).
LG ... I'm looking at you and your mafia tactics. Good topic to bring up, it's getting ridiculous.
Signed: A previous LG fan
And, since you did the bad thing, have you revoked/changed passwords/locked this piece of shit hardware out from the internet?
Rather than begging HN or yelling at a cloud (LG), what have YOU done to remedy this on your side?
Yes all of that's already been done immediately after finding this out.
I'm new to HN, so I apologize in advance if this isn't the right place to post this.