Ask HN: Where can I live off 1k USD per month?
I'm planing on taking some serious time off to work on my side projects.
I'm open to any country in the world, I want to just work on my games. So with that in mind I'll need good internet access. From what I can see, this is very doable in Eastern Europe.
Eventually, I do plan on returning to the US, but I want to spend at least 6 months overseas.
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https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?cou...
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Lviv?displayCurrenc...
From your link: "Rent Prices in Lviv are 39.98% lower than in Kiev (Kyiv)" (in reality, in many scenarios the difference is greater than that).
Info: securing a three year resident visa in Ukraine is very easy.
Foreign visas are also quite loose. You could get an entrepreneurship visa (see the MDEC site). There's a rapidly growing games and animation industry too, so you might be able to find people you'd like to work with.
As far as I can tell America is more dangerous than most other places.
Healthcare is up to West European standards and is part of the $1000/month. Coronavirus deaths per pop is at #100th rank or so. The current wave is very bad, with daily cases at about 6th globally, but KL area is about 80% adults fully vaccinated now.
Roads are dangerous if you're driving. Corruption is lowish by Asian standards, high by Western standards. It's at a level where you can choose to bribe the nice policeman or report him, but you're unlikely to be arrested on skin color. We don't have many drug lords; organized criminals run government [1] or take on gov contracts.
Would you like statistics instead of anecdotes? A lot don't exist past 2005 or so, and be aware that many official stats abuse statistics [2]. I'm sure you can search the stats yourself, I'm just here to provide a view.
[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/najib-razak-former-malaysian-pr...
[2] https://twitter.com/dghisham/status/1427814223036370954
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Malaysia/U...
Sometimes it's fairly innocent e.g. a lot of people feel the police are the last resort. People are known to "settle" accidents. Even burglaries; you can have a gentleman's agreement that the robbers will inform all their friends that this house has been robbed and there's nothing left to take, while the victims agree not to tell the cops. Or say, a teenager caught for drugs may not be reported, because the punishment is death. They'll just be expelled, beat up, or let off with a warning.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-san-francisco-sho...
Of course this is going to depend on the city, but for example when I went to Europe, I felt so at ease compared to living in America.
Housing is probably the biggest living expense. I take advantage of Korea's interesting rental system called Cheonsae:
Basically, if you put down a huge deposit (like $90,000: 50% to 90% of the value of the property), you don't pay any monthly rent and get the entire deposit back when you move out. My place has a $50 monthly management fee, but that includes high-speed internet. (So I joke that I get free housing with my internet.)
Of course, there is an opportunity cost because that deposit could have generated interest, but I figure the break-even point is 12% APY. (It is possible to lower the deposit by increasing monthly rent.) So it's advantageous to take out a bank loan at 2-4% interest to pay for the deposit.
There is a small risk you won't be able to get your deposit back if the owner mismanages their finances. I believe the Korean government actually guarantees housing deposits up to $50,0000 or so. In Korea, the tenants actually do background checks on the landlords! The minimum deposit is usually $10,000, so landlords usually don't scrutinize tenants.
I wouldn't do it unless I had a partner who is already a citizen , but I'll definitely keep this in mind.
How much is rent if I didn't want to deposit that much ?
Housing costs will vary greatly depending on location. $90,000 is in Gimpo, just outside of Seoul. Busan is probably half the cost of Seoul, and outside any major metro areas it's probably even lower.
Also even within the same real estate market prices vary greatly depending on the neighborhood, type, and size of unit. Another major factor is distance to nearest public transportation (subway).
Another thing to note is since monthly rent is usually more profitable for landowners, there is a movement away from the cheonsae system. However, I was still able to find plenty of options exactly one year ago.
- $10,000 additional deposit reduces monthly rent by $50.
- 50 * 12 = 600
- 600/10,000 = 6%
The monthly rent reduction used to be $100 per $10,000. So it used to be 12%. I guess the break-even point is 6%, now...
Concrete example: I could reduce the deposit from $90,000 to $10,000. But then my rent would go from $0/month to $400/month. So by keeping a large deposit, I save $4800/year in rent.
I did not consider that!
That's kind of a strange system. Any idea how it evolved there? Basically sounds like the landlord has to invest the money in such a way as to get a return that would be equivalent to rent but also safe enough so that they can return the deposit. I don't think I'd want to be a landlord there.
It's actually greatly favorable to landlords. Just think about what happens when one side is out of money. Under the monthly rent system, landlords can't get any more money until they evict the renter (which is a lot of hassle, anywhere in the world). Under the "jeonse" system, if the landlord becomes bankrupt, the renter is suddenly out of a large portion of their total wealth, and will be evicted by the new owner - without any money to find the next place.
(There are insurances to protect renters but the risk is still there.)
Now interest rates are much lower, but Koreans got used to paying $0 rent and anything above that feels like they are being ripped off.
One reason landlords like the system is because they can daisy-chain the purchase of multiple properties. They take the first cheonsae deposit and use it to purchase another property, then use the cheonsae deposit from the 2nd property to purchase a 3rd property, and so on...
Even if landlords don't receive monthly rent, they expect to earn money on the increased value of the property. Cheonsae contracts are normally 2 years, then they can ask for more deposit or sell the property for a profit.
More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeonse
That sounds like it’d be a disaster during a liquidity crunch.
There are worse places to make that bet.
Or let's put it this way: a rational bet is something like, this thing is worth $50 now, it will be worth at least $100 later. An irrational bet is one like "this thing will be worth more over and over again!" If everyone things like that, then the thing's price will keep rising until the bubble bursts.
South Korea has two characteristics that directly impact that: scarcity of land (relative to population) and a solid, world-leading economy in many high margin industries.
It's not inconceivable property with such qualities could increase in value forever, and still be properly valued.
So saying "Just like 2008 US" is a pretty pithy distillation of a number of complicated factors.
Do they not do home mortgages in South Korea? Are properties expected to go down in price?
You also get to avoid the risk of the landlord not giving you a large sum of money back.
And then they have to return the deposit eventually... how is this different from a Ponzi scheme? :P
This Korean system should work in theory. People generally don't move very frequently. As long as there's a liquid market for investments in stocks & bonds, and the housing appreciates in value over the long term, it's not a bad system.
Seems pretty favorable to the landlords too. They get $90k up front for a $100k house. Which they could invest for an 8% or so return, which, in the first year is ~$550/mo in rent, compounded each year, minus maintenance. Yield wise, $7k on a $10k investment ($100k house - $90k from renter) is fucking amazing.
The fact that is has been around for so long suggests that it works in practice too. Yeah, maybe a black swan event causes a liquidity crunch. But so long as the government steps in to provide liqudity (low interest mortgages would work), then it shouldn't hurt too bad. Worst case, foreign investors step in to buy up the real estate.
The "pool of capital" never grows here, either. Landlords get more assets (houses), but also more liabilities (deposits).
A Ponzi scheme is perfectly capable of having underlying investments, by the way. I'm pretty sure Madoff bought houses with his money, too.
> Which they could invest for an 8% or so return
Where the heck do you get an 8% return with no risk? I want in.
> The fact that is has been around for so long
How many decades did Madoff's ponzi scheme last?
Say I get $90,000 to go buy a house, I spend the $90,000 and have 1 door. I get a tenant in it and they make a $90,000 down payment. I then go buy another house and get another tenant in it and they make a $90,000 down payment. I now have two houses and still have the same amount of money I started with, I can continue this cycle and as long as property appreciates I don't just get the property appreciation from one house I get it from all of the houses so (% appreciation * property value * number of properties).
Say it is a $100,000 property and it appreciates 3%. If I had just bought one house and put the money in an interest yielding savings account I would get some low % return. If I instead chained it to acquire 10 houses I would get $30,000 return, which is 30%. But if the value of the house goes down it works against me!
Obviously this ignores transaction costs, interest costs etc.
Why wouldn't the tenant spend $90,000 on the house themselves, cutting out the middleman?
Usually cheonsae deposit is less than 100% of the purchase price, so it costs less. Even if the difference is small (10%), you are guarded from drops in real estate value. If you put down $90,000 deposit you should get back exactly $90,000 even if the property value dropped below that.
And perhaps cheonsae loans are easier to get than house mortgages. I'm not sure about this, but the deposit may be better collateral than the property?
If anyone knows a method to short Korean housing, please let me know!
I was thinking the same, but here's another way of framing it: they're like real estate agents [1] in the US, except that instead of keeping a 2.5%–5% commission at every sale, they keep the capital gains. They may not need to invest deposits at all to make money.
To me renting under this system doesn't seem clearly better than buying. You're paying most of the money to buy the property, but it's not an investment. You can't come out ahead. But at least there's no risk or hassle of doing property maintenance.
[edit: no, I just saw yongjik's comment: "Under the 'jeonse' system, if the landlord becomes bankrupt, the renter is suddenly out of a large portion of their total wealth, and will be evicted by the new owner - without any money to find the next place. (There are insurances to protect renters but the risk is still there.)" I don't think I'd like to rent under this system at all.]
[1] and property managers who handle repairs and such, but that's probably not how they make their money at $50/month.
Usually there is a monthly management fee that ranges from $50 to $100+ dollars that covers cleaning of common areas, repairs, etc.
Many South Korean landlords are underwater on a bad investment and use the next renter's deposit to pay out the last. Citation not possible.
The point of the system was to spur investment in the south korean economy.
Of course that prior speculative bet could be in mortgage(s). You would need to look at other weakness in that economy to rationalize whatever bet you want.
I haven't blogged in a long time, but here are the Korea-related blog posts:
http://blog.leftium.com/2007/06/my-life-prologue.html
http://blog.leftium.com/2007/06/past-month-in-review.html
http://blog.leftium.com/2007/06/my-life-chapter-i.html
http://blog.leftium.com/2010/08/dragon-flies-and-praying-man...
http://blog.leftium.com/2010/09/how-to-eat-korean-food.html
http://blog.leftium.com/2010/10/october-update-whats-good-in...
I have an F4 visa that allows me to stay in Korea for up to 3 years, and it's simple to extend without leaving Korea. Technically I have almost all the rights as a Korean citizen except for the right to vote for president. (In practice it's more limited. For example it's nearly impossible for me to get a loan.)
With the F4 visa, I can work or not work. The F4 visa is granted to people who have relatives who are Korean citizens.
I can easily imagine somewhere outside Seoul/Jeju/Busan being surprisingly affordable
And I was a little fast and loose with the KRW-USD conversion. I opted for the simple 1USD == 1000KRW, so the actual numbers are a little higher.
ETA: Nomadlist suggests €1,925/mo for Seoul, €1,530/mo for Jeju Island, South Korea; €1,047/mo for Tbilisi, Georgia; €627/mo for Bandung, Indonesia.
ETA: Nomadlist has a list of places below USD 1000/mo: https://nomadlist.com/places-on-a-budget
Isn't this just capturing the difference between short(ish term vs long term relocation? Places like Nomadist are aimed at the first category, not "what's the cheapest you can live in city X", no?
If that’s your position, then I’d think any multinational sending you on a multi year stint abroad would offer that kind of package.
Interesting framing
But still the numbers are useful and mostly accurate within a range
Batumi is also known as Colchis, the destination for the Argonauts in Greek Mythology, so plenty of history & culture and great food.
The Grand Tour did a special driving through Georgia to Azerbaijan if you want to get a feel for what the region looks like:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6068920/
[1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5700672/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanajuato_City
Edit: I lived there 5 years ago and USD$1k per month would have been plenty, but a nomad website I just looked up lists it at $1250. I'm surprised by that, I think you would be fine. In fact I know people who live there who don't earn anything near $15k USD per year.
If you want a big city you can still do Busan, daegu, ulsan etc
The next time I move to Korea (which I do every couple years), I'm gonna try Busan. I've visited a few times, but haven't ever lived there.
Leaseholders are called "homeowners" but they don't really own the home in the normal sense and are closer to long term renters in their rights.
A freeholder is basically renting out a house for 99 years and the leaseholder has to pay all the rent upfront (+ renewal). On the upside, if the freeholder wants to sell the house he's required to offer it to the leaseholder first.
So you're giving them a usurious loan basically.
Housing returns:https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w24112/w241... S&P : https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average...
What would the equivalent rent have been for the place you live in for free (with 90k deposit)?
In nominal terms the S&P500 would do 10% a year or so on average. Over the past decade it's been 14.7%, so that $90k would've returned 13k a year on average.
In general I feel South Korea has been a great value for money location, if you bring external capital. If I compare it to neighbouring Japan for example, prices seem so much more affordable. Of course the working culture is not easy, but for OP it'd be a great choice.
The general rule is $50/rent per $10,000 deposit, however it's up to the landlord. I think my place was actually more like $80,000 deposit + $100 rent (vs. $50). I recall the different options with rent fit the formula, but there was a big drop in rent if it was all deposit and no monthly rent. Maybe the owner preferred avoiding the hassle of collecting monthly rent (still have to collect monthly management fee, though...)
When calculating the real estate commission, the formula is used to arrive at a total value for the transaction. So the real estate broker's cut is the same whether the rent is big or small. And I think the commission is the same whether it's a rental or purchase.
If I was going to live in a Major city anywhere,Seoul would be in the top 2 along with Tokyo
For me, the biggest hurdle was saving up the deposit. Koreans have easy access to cheonsae loans at 2-4% interest rates. It's very difficult for foreigners to get a loan in Korea.
$10,000 deposit used to be converted to $100 rent (to get 12%). It's now only $50 rent. (Although in my case I think it still was $100/12%).
Personally, I wouldn't bother with jeonsae unless somebody else is paying for it (parents, employer, bank), keep your money in your favorite speculative investment instead.
The most "stereotypical" answer is Thailand, which offers cheap internet, food, month-to-month accommodations, friendly to visa runners (hopping over the border for a day and coming back into country every X months to reset your visa), quite a bit to do, and is also pretty safe.
But it's so bloody hot!
Going further east, Tbilisi (Georgia) and Lviv (Ukraine) are also very inexpensive yet safe and filled with interesting culture.
Due to the Turkish lira collapsing, Turkey is also very inexpensive if you have USD. You can rent an apartment in central Istanbul for ±$400 a month.
For comparison, Lviv to Donetsk is a greater distance than Berlin to Paris or London to Milan, and only slightly less than New York to Chicago.
That doesn't bold well for stability. Hungry did appear on my list, the rent seems very very low.
Right now I'm trying to see where COVID-19 will be in a few months. If it's still not possible to travel easily, I might need to stay and save for a bit longer.
Hungary is also a good (and affordable) choice. Budapest is probably one of the most interesting cities in Europe, IMO.
Also turkey is big and diverse, so if borders closes, it is still large country to travel. It hardly puts any limitations on foreigners.
Also - how widespread is the understanding of the English language?
- Serbia: Driving in Novi Sad, and another driver illegally passed me and hit my car coming back into traffic, causing a few hundred euro in damage to my car. He got out and yelled me and then drove off before exchanging any info. I had photos of his license plates, but multiple Serbian friends advised me to not deal with it because it would ultimately come down to who was more able to deal with the nuance of bribing the police. On the other hand, I once stupidly left my Macbook Pro on a flight landing in Belgrade, and it ended up in the hands of the airport police, who handled everything professionally.
- Bosnia: Driving into the country, with insurance that's valid in Bosnia (and every country in Europe), which it says right on my insurance form. The immigration officer denies this and sends me over to his buddy 20m away to buy "Bosnian insurance". Only €30, but definitely corruption.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/21/this-35-year-old-expat-lives...
As for language, of course, your experience will depend on where you want to live in the country. North-east sees less tourists than the coast, and finding that sweet middle might take some trial and error.
It's a great place if you're adventurous - if you're looking for stability, it isn't the place for you. Upsides are that Albanians love Americans (as opposed to the Serbs, who often harbor a grudge) and generally speak at least some english. Prices for things like coffee, etc. are low.
Albanians also have not been very good stewards of their environments, either - litter is a constant, nobody gives an "F" about rules and regulations, practically all the endemic animals have disappeared, and waterways, including beaches, are quite polluted. Cities are a hodgepodge of chaotic construction and barely-functioning infrastructure.
I lived roughly here: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.3170299,19.8070025,3a,60y,24...
If that kind of scene excites you, perhaps Albania is for you.
And in 3 minutes walking distance you have every type of service that exists in the city.
Parts of Greece can also be surprisingly affordable (with much better infrastructure than Albania), particularly if you hit a place that's a summer hot-spot in the off-season.
They seem to have faster internet speeds than some western countries like the UK and Germany. They seem lower on crime too: https://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2...
Outside Europe there are lots of others, but I don't know about internet speed and crime rate. Just that the culture would be very different from the US. You can sort by monthly income here https://www.worlddata.info/cost-of-living.php
I agree that sometimes it might be hard to detect when a government is slipping from a populist phase to outright fascism, but in this case the overwhelming amount of evidence makes it clearcut.
And independently from any possible interpretation, when a government tell you explicitly that you are not welcome, ignore the warning at your own peril.
Also, Poland should be a great place to actually run your game studio company from, as the tax on "IT innovation" (should not be hard to include games in this category) is only 6% - everything after that ends up in your pocket (i.e. no further dividend tax etc is required).
Assuming you won't be getting a car, public transit and Uber/taxis are affordable as well - a 5 km trip via Uber should perhaps be around $4.
I suspect other countries in the region should have similar numbers. Healthcare system and tax incentives should definitely be the biggest differentiator.
Gas is currently $5.5 per gallon. Most people drive cars with low fuel consumption, so they're easy to get on second-hand market. Also, if one is particularly stingy about fuel costs, it's popular to own cars fueled by LPG. LPG is currently $2.5 per gallon.
I’ll add that it’s been popular for the last decade, up to 15 years. So don’t think it’s going anywhere, anytime soon!
Most of my friends don't have cars, around half doesn't have a driver's license. They can afford a car easily, but just don't see a need.
That said, I’d you’re not white and straight, small towns could be very unwelcoming, from people staring, to telling you to go, to physical violence. Rare but true.
Its interesting how people think it makes you an evil person to want a more homogenous society instead of the multicultural one.
>"I think that sounds great!"
>"Oh no why do people think I'm an evil person"
But hand on heart can I say to someone outside that narrow blueprint it’s definitely fine? Nope.
It would rather be the odd skinhead on the bus or in the street. The current government is also quietly accepting such behaviours, as it is their voter base, so the few “bad apples” feel they can act with impunity.
I don’t want to overplay it, it’s not Nazi Germany, but for sure something to consider. Nice place one way or the other.
Also, the idea that the current government is quietly accepting skinhead violence is preposterous.
There are Indian people living and working in Poland, so it can’t be too bad. Right wing media say nothing of racist attacks. Left wing media describe them all the time. There are vocal nationalists, most of whom never go past their grumblings.
I raise it as I’d be somewhat concerned sending a non-white or job-straight friend into rural Poland.
If you look at UK Foreign Office travel advice, the LGBT intolerance warrants a mention, but no other warning: https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/poland/local-laws-a... . I guess attitudes to non-white people could get a similar treatment.
During my last visit, wireless phone service was super in the major cities...even better than Canada's.
As a tourist, Poland was a pretty big bang on my money: Equivalent item from the west for 1/3 of the cost while enjoying modern amenities. But I can see non Polish speakers would have difficulties living there in the longer term. During my trips, I insisted on travelling with at least one native Polish speaker.
You better put aside the remaining 13% for 5 years, just in case the inevitable happens.
People will know enough English for you to get by, but it will feel very isolating. Learning just a little bit of Polish will make a world of difference, especially if you need to talk with a plumber or doctor (they're very unlikely to know much English).
Places like this will help with a visa for a more extended stay so you can run your "startup":
https://twojstartup.pl/
https://notesfrompoland.com/2020/11/25/poland-has-eus-worst-...
https://www.sustainability-times.com/clean-cities/battling-t...
Also, if OP enjoys smoking pot, that might be an issue as per family who lives there it will be a big change vs coming from California.
Personally when traveling in Krakow and Warsaw I've found more racism against brown people lately vs 10 years ago... random cabbies and bartenders going on unprovoked rants against immigrants. Not sure if that's been one-off but that was surprising for me at least.
Yep. European’s view the perpetual grin dimly, and doubly so in Poland where direct communication is how things are done. It’s honestly nice because in general people there mean business and don’t care to save face. don’t think you’ll be catching west coast vibes from anyone!
By some magical coincidence, just a year later the black-on-yellow 'Happy Face' (Smiley) was introduced by the 'Good Guys' on NYC radio and used on badges for an insurance company.
Because it's early in the morning, I also wonder if there are other countries where the phrase "wipe that smile off your face" means you're in danger.
Certainly no song and dance to the way they do business.
I live in Żary (Tier-3 City), which is near Żagań. Quick overview:
- small city is quite cheap. Prices said by @burntoutfire are right
- there are around 2000 US soldiers hanging around here. So you won't be alone :) if someone told you that small cities in eastern europe may be intolerant (or unsafe or unwelcoming) for travelers - it's not here. Here Everyone thinks that every American met is a soldier with combat training ;)
- internet is cheap and stable. mobile is cheap and stable (comparing to US or western Europe). In almost every place you can pay using credit card.
- ecommerce is working great here. Delivery takes 1 working day. Parcel lockers are on every corner of Poland already :)
- it's close to Germany (10 miles to border, 100 miles to Berlin) so you can get two cultures in one visit.
- people in Poland are... mentally somewhere between Russians and Germans ;)
- most of the people <40yo understand english. But many of them have no practice and are just afraid to speak. The younger people you meet the bigger chance to speak english you have.
- it's the region with a lot of forests (like 70% of area). So the air quality is decent comparing to any large city.
- covid is not an issue here right now. We had 6 new cases in last 24h per 1 million people. There is no "next wave" coming. You should wear a mask in closed space, but except visits at hospital/doctors no one cares.
Most places do offer 6 month visas for artists and for things like what you are doing, but you should try and sort out this plan before you arrive at your destination, because once there you may find it harder to turn your tourist visa into something else.
Either that or you will have to travel to multiple places that do not share the same travel restrictions.
https://expertvagabond.com/digital-nomad-work-visas/
Example: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Viseu
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28179018
Though looks like $1000 might not cut it.
I strongly suspect I could get down to 500$ , but I don't want to push it.
I'll note this is not correct. I'm in Morgantown WV and the Internet is great. I'm paying in the low $30s for 200mbps with normal low latency and it's highly reliable, via Comcast. That'll go on up to 1.2gbps if I need it. Speedtest usually comes out to 180-230mbps depending on the test site.
Most populated areas of West Virginia offer typical Comcast-style Internet speeds and prices. If you're living in the middle of nowhere, or a town of 2000 people, it's true that may be a different story. Starlink and local cable providers are your only serious options then.
I love the Colombian caribbean coast, so that is why is my first recommendation to the OP, the weather is perfect almost all year round, and with a modest budget he can definitively have a moderate (and even higher) lifestyle with no much compromises.
This means to assure that you can get a solid tan before the arrival, keep a low-key profile and try to keep your mouth shut in crowded places to hide your non Colombian accent, even if your Spanish is fluid.
Cheaper than USA for sure, but also not a fan of the food in Colombia either. Or most of South America when compared to Asia. :D
P.S. - I grew up in that city, before moving out at 26. I still visit though - 1-2 times a year.
I thought this was a euphemism for something but, no, an actual thing: https://www.forbes.com/sites/melissacristinamarquez/2020/07/...
Who'd have thought...
In the US/UK, one would mostly bet on Cloudflare, Akamai, AWS, GCP outages... There, it's either sharks, or some locals think it's an enemy country that's close by that's doing sabotage.
SHARKNESS
If you want the best food, go to Karachi.
Come on man, don't mislead others like this. Everyone here knows you go to Lahore for good food :)
Between that and this recent thread on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/pakistan/comments/pb5l2k/how_can_yo...
I had been ranking it lower on my travel wish-list.
Sure they have nice mountains, but you have those in much safer places as well.
When someone recommends Pakistan I feel like they’re saying: “Sure, Hell is a bit hot but it has great view”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...