They should be shamed. It would be fine if they didn't take the vaccine and stayed home but they don't do that. They go to the hospital and take up valuable bed space that I would argue thy don't deserve.
I realistically don't know how much the intent is to persuade people to get the vaccine. As they point out, it wouldn't be a good strategy, but at this point, not much is going to change a person's mind over it anyway.
The context is different when there are issues with hospital capacity and there is a known solution that costs nothing to prevent hospitals’ from being overburdened.
Quitting smoking and losing weight are incredibly difficult and take years. Getting a jab takes five minutes and no effort whatsoever. You even get paid to do it at some places.
You overeating doesn't give everyone else around you diabetes.
I'm never going to buy the attempts to equate getting a personal preventable illness with willful and malicious disregard of the health of everyone surrounding you.
We're pretty understanding of a person who struggles with alcoholism. We're a whole lot less understanding when they choose to get behind the wheel.
Its culturally acceptable to shame drunk drivers, smokers (in public spaces), and more. Im not necessarily agreeing we should but it certainly follows that shaming people for endangering others re: vaccines is in line with modern cultural norms.
> You overeating doesn't give everyone else around you diabetes.
This seems like a deflection. Given GP's argument, a better question would be are obese people more likely to spread COVID than non-obese people?
Well, we know someone who has contracted COVID can expect worse outcomes if they're obese.
Given that, it seems safe to assume that obese people are more likely to get breakthrough infections and/or that they have slower recoveries (i.e. more coughing/sneezing and more spreading COVID) than non-obese people.
So it seems reasonable (in a back-of-the-envelope sort of way) to infer that obese folks are more likely to spread COVID than non-obese folks.
Now, back to GP's argument--If we're suggesting that non-vaccinated people are less deserving of healthcare than vaccinated people because they're contributing the the spread of COVID, why wouldn't we treat obese folks the same?
Healthcare is a limited resource. People who overeat, drinking or otherwise contribute to their health problems sure as hell do take up healthcare resources from everyone else.
The covid vaccines do not prevent transmission, and people who are unvaccinated are not intentionally infecting others with covid. Taking the vaccine is also not the same as not driving sober because there are real fatal risks to taking the vaccine. Also, the main risk of death from covid is for people that do have preventable personal illnesses, or serious health issues. The average person dying from covid in the US has 4 comorbidity and only 5% of deaths do not have comorbidity [0].
So, tell me, why should a healthy, young person, who already had covid and went through it no problem, take a vaccine that could literally kill them? Because vaccine passports as introduced in some places will majorly mess up the lives of many people.
In smoking, drinking, eating too much, there are pleasures. Thus, making it difficult for people to stop. Stopping them requires fighting real urges. That's why they deserve sympathy.
In not getting vaccinated there's no pleasure. Only stupidity and ignorance.
I'm not sure what your argument is? That pleasure is what determines if something is ok to do? People have reasons for not taking a vaccine the same way people have reasons for drinking. They have their own reasons, it is their choice.
Comment above me claimed we should have sympathy for unvvacinated people [that have access to vaccine] who die, just like we do sympathize with people who die due to smoking, drinking, etc.
I argued that being vaccinated is not comparable to those, because unlike them, your body doesn't have any urge to not vaccinated. It's very easy to get vaccinated. It's just a stupid decision.
Not getting vaccinated is a stupid decision, but smoking is not? Or you think people are spontaneously addicted to smoking, drinking, drugs? Or you think that people randomly decide to not get the vaccine because they just wake up stupid one day? Guess what, in a free society people can choose what they put in their bodies, regardless of how much pleasure you think they get from it, or how stupid you think it is.
On an emotional level, I can't help but agree. But.. frequently we have to choose between doing what feels good and doing what is effective. Assuming, of course, that we even notice when there is a difference between the two (which, frankly, there very often is).
We get really upset about drunk driving. Smoking indoors and in particular around kids. We're going to get similarly mad unvaccinated people taking others down with their Darwin Awards.
finishing it with the anecdote of "so I tried my new fangled plan of convincing a person, and then they still wern't convinced" somewhat nullifies the author's entire point
I'm always aghast when I go on social media or Reddit and see all the things people say about the unvaccinated dead. I can scarcely believe that the folks that post those things are nominally on the same side as me on most issues of substance. I get past it by telling myself that there are always tons of bots and shills in the pay of all manner of nation states and organizations trolling those exact places posting whatever will ferment polarization.
I might be sentimental in thinking that you shouldn't kick someone when they're down. Dying for your mistakes is one way to be "down", and mocking someone is a great way of "kicking" them.
On the subject of Darwin Awards, that website didn't have a very good rationalisation for celebrating those people's deaths, except for some social Darwinian bullshit. At least here, they sort of seem to have one.
I'd also add to this, get to the point quicker. I got really bored with this article about three paragraphs in. You want to persuade me? Start by not wasting my attention.
I'm sick and tired of people telling me what to do under virtually all everyday circumstances, and especially so when the rationale is faulty (or at least up for debate). It gets even more wearing when they take a long time about it or use an unnecessarily large quantity of words.
Who's being coerced? People have the free choice to take or not take the vaccine. Both decisions have consequences. That is it. No coercion is involved.
Maybe there's no coercion where you live, but where I live some people who are unvaccinated get a fine in a form of a forced test every two weeks that they have to pay for, no matter how risk-averse they are.
A vaccinated socialite is far more of a problem than an unvaccinated loner.
Those are called "consequences." You make your choice, you are responsible for it, both the unvaccinated and the "vaccinated socialite" you want to demonize. Do you think you, or the "vaccinated socialite" should be able to opt out of your responsibility to participate in a common sense public health measure without consequences?
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and please stop using HN for flamewar? We ban such accounts because we're trying for a different sort of site here.
I'll consider myself warned and be more careful in the future, but it was certainly not my intention to flame here. All of my comments on HN have been offered in good faith, including the ones in this thread. The GP comment in particular was genuinely looking for clarification, because I had no idea what the poster I was replying to was claiming.
Thank you for taking your time to point this out to me.
Reddit has a subreddit dedicated to this. I understand the justifications and the frustration, but so much of that is people being hateful. I've seen everything from race, hair style, weight, religion, etc mocked because the people deserve it. I think it's the most toxic part of humanity.
I hope reddit closes hateful subs like this. Here is a similar article about that sub.
Sure, there is a much stronger social policing of personal attacks and sophomoric comments, but within those bounds, some people appear to feel freer to make genuinely cutting comments and express vitriolic opinions.
they're the same place (literally, same demographics and that), HN just pushes people to be passive-aggressive instead of regular aggressive because of the rules on tone, even though the spirit of the rules is to be inquisitive rather than abrasive.
I disagree. 14% of the US use reddit++. It's possible, and IMHO, likely that most HN users are reddit users. It's definitely not the case that most reddit users are HN users.
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In my utterly subjective opinion, the users of HN are generally older, and almost certainly more STEM oriented than their reddit counterparts. Both their age and their experience might explain why they are more skilled at eviscerating a commenter while staying within the letter of HN social norms and moderation.
Moreover, and I reiterate, IMHSO, the more toxic users on HN tend to be primarily reactionary in political persuasion, whereas, reddit has a much more wider political varieties of jackass. Perhaps this is a result of there not being subHN forums to where people would self-segregate.
HN's core audience migrated from reddit after it became victim to the eternal September effect after it went mainstream. Reddit's core culture is the same as HN's - which is to say liberal, atheist, materialist and STEM-fetishising, and drawn to geek culture/media. Demographics-wise, white males from the US, predominantly urban/city-oriented. The main difference is that HN is more technical, and probably older because of said migration.
My experience with people being toxic or negative or whatever has been mainly people being passive-aggressive or hostile, regardless of politics. Most reactionary content here just gets flagged into oblivion regardless of how it's presented, of course. So the unpleasantness that actually sticks around tends to be either apolitical or liberal/progressive (I find neoliberals are too busy trying to make money to engage in petty arguments!).
Can you really blame those commentors? I certainly cannot, and I said so in another comment of mine. Reddit was right to close down actually harmful subs like r/NoNewNormal which was basically vaccine conspiracy peddling. Compared to that, HCA is nothing. It's not causing anything, it's only showing the effects of things like being antivax.
It's full of hatred. I can understand being upset, but being so frustrated that you revel in the deaths of innocent people? These people are victims learning the most painful and lat lesson of their lives. Saying that the trash has been taken out when someone dies (yes, a quote form that article), is lacking humanity.
The death is of their own creation. They literally chose to die, and moreover, they chose to take actions that would harm other people. How could I have sympathy for someone who actively chooses to harm others and succumbs to their own demise?
Yeah you're right. I think I'm just too tired of people killing others and dying themselves that I'm just starting to feel schadenfreude instead of sympathy.
I don’t think the unvaccinated
mind the shaming as much as the threats - to be denied health care, sent to camps, fired from their jobs, forbidden to buy food, forbidden freedom of movement, etc. those things matter a lot more than “shaming”
It’s worth noting that, even if you think shaming encourages people to get vaccinated, these stories are still bad because they are almost never seen by the people who you’re trying to shame.
Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital.
The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet.
Similarly, many of these stories focus heavily on the most crazy, most irrational reasons to not get the vaccine.
Most folks who don’t get the vaccine are coming from very understandable places.
- They may believe that they already got COVID and think that, because they already got it, then they’re “immune” (which is wrong, but reasonable to assume)
- They have heard people they consider smart and reputable, like Eric Weinstein, claim misleading or false statistics about deaths from the vaccine. (Again, wrong, but understandable)
- they may still think that the vaccine is “not FDA approved”, due to poor messaging from the FDA. (It is approved by the way, not just emergency authorization)
- they may not have time to go get a vaccine. Not everyone can take time off work
- they may be afraid of needles, or the side effects, and are unwilling to admit it. I was afraid of the side effects before getting my vaccine (though it turned out fine)
All of these are irrational reasons, since COVID is super contagious, absolutely awful to get, and puts many people, even those who survive, alone in the hospital with a tube shoved down their throat. But they’re reasonable fears; understandable fears.
And shaming people for entirely reasonable fears does not get more people vaccinated.
A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.
Hey, sorry I missed the statement in the original post where you called them irrational. Apologies for not reading more carefully. In that sense my original response wasn't disagreeing with you.
I do disagree with you tactically, though. The percentage of the adults in my country (the US) who have received one dose is closer to 2/3. That leaves about 1/3 of eligible people unvaccinated. This is roughly the same 1/3 of people who don't believe in evolution, and the same 1/3 that believe that Covid is a hoax, or that you can beat it by taking horse dewormer.
Trying to fight this by winning over hearts and minds is like when serious scientists try to debate evolution with creationists. It's a waste of everyone's time. The only way to get the vaccine numbers up is to make vaccines mandatory for school, employment, travel, etc like other vaccines are.
Your comment seems to make the assumption that this 1/3 unvaccinated are the same folks that are anti-evolution, Covid is a hoax, and ivermectin proponents. That is certainly some of the unvaxed and probably the most vocal, but you are leaving out a whole other diverse group of folks.
> The only way to get the vaccine numbers up is to make vaccines mandatory for school, employment, travel, etc like other vaccines are.
I agree with this, but not necessarily for the same reason.
I think this gives a whole lot of people a very clear and easy way to feel like they were still “right”, but to also get vaccinated.
They can blame someone for “forcing” them, but still get vaccinated. This is especially important if they have previously told many people that “they’re not getting the vaccine”.
It lets them out of commitments, and makes them more receptive to real information. Since, when it starts to feel more like you’re going to get the vaccine at some point, you’re more willing to rationalize towards making that okay, rather than rationalizing reasons why not getting the vaccine is okay.
All of my friends who aren't getting the vaccine and vocal about it are pushing some pretty out there reasons. It may have started from relatively reasonable reasons, but it has morphed into an especially vitrolic ideology and in-group signaling rather quickly.
Also, a lot of polls show there is a sticky group of people who will never get it and that population hasn't changed much over time. So at this point there's not much you can move the needle on them via facts and all that.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying.
Highly recommend the You Are Not So Smart podcast on how to have beneficial discussions with anti-vax individuals. One key is don't use social media (eg in public).
> A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.
Completely agree with this. Of all the vitriol I see…even on this very thread, it feels more about finding a socially acceptable way of venting hate about groups of people (obese, rural/religious/right-wingers) that they already hated and complained about even before COVID-19 was a thing.
IMHO, the most surprising (and disturbing) thing about people refusing the vaccine, catching COVID, and dying is that there are so many of them. Enough for the media to talk about a random new dead person every day. Enough to sustain a shitty subreddit. In a country where vaccination is free.
I agree that mocking them isn't productive, but at this stage, it feels more like a coping mechanism. When the world around you stops making sense, what are you going to do, other than laugh?
Given the capacity of hospitals to treat everyone, assuming we can max them out, it takes about 40 years til everyone has it, assuming in those 40 years, there are no additional births.
They have fallen upto a media trap setup to push blame while ignoring everything else.
You hear the same in places where 90% have gotten two shots.
The vaccines don't work so well. If you want to reduce the curve you need to go out 70% less. No one wants to share that getting a vaccine was never enough. We were told just get a shot and it will kill covid you can go back to normal living. The vaccines are not that good.
It is not my problem if people who are unvaccinated would rather inject horse deworming paste than take a vaccine. They suffer the consequences of their actions and they Darwin themselves out of existence.
I feel no sympathy for these people. In fact, I feel less than zero sympathy, because they take up space in hospitals for people that do truly need it, such as children, immunocompromised, or those otherwise unable to take the vaccine. So, I will shame away.
For those saying that many of these people come from an understandable place, I cannot agree. If you read the posts on r/HermanCainAward, most of the people shown are openly mocking the vaccine, that it's a "liberal creation" and it is implied that they are not taking it merely due to it being pushed by the government, that they do not want their "freedoms" (to die or take medicine for animals, I presume) being "infringed."
We also have to stop shaming information, and the people who want to discuss it.
In many places, especially on the net, You have to say "the vaccine is completely safe all the time", not "the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and effective, some may be at risk of life threatening blood clots, and vaccination does not entirely prevent infection, nor does it guarantee significant protection from future mutations which are expected to continue".
You especially cannot talk about CDC data, you can't compare death/injury of other things, and you can't talk about the 1920's influenza outbreak that killed half a million people.
If you try to talk about those things, you're shamed as a crazy anti-vaxxer whom is going to kill everyone. Even if you've been vaccinated and follow CDC guidelines.
That's how new anti-vaxxers are being made. Otherwise reasonable people are being told they're crazy anti-vaxxers for simply talking about facts, asking important questions, pointing out inconvenient data. The actual experts whom can talk about such things are being drowned out by the flood of reactionaries.
If they are dead you are not talking to them. You are talking with the people that did the same as them, and are still alive (and with a bit of luck, that didn't got the disease yet).
And besides personal freedom, in a society you are free to do what affects only you, your freedom should stop where the rights of the rest of the people begins. Should you shame or condemn someone that choose to drive drunk and kills a couple of elderly people in the road? That is what they are doing.
Comparisons with other kinds of deaths that have an ironic reversal component are often comparing far milder scenarios. For the vaccines scenario, to use a phrase from the Monster Factory video series, there are “no middle sliders”.
It’s a free option to not die. If your cultural/political milieu or personal philosophy leads you to not take that free option, it’s at least a little bit funny. If you are a leader or evangelist within that milieu, I think it definitely crosses the line into acceptably openly funny.
Please note that this obviously doesn’t mean I condone every action by people who also think it’s funny. For private persons, a basic attempt to anonymize and unlink humorous comments from the person and their family seems like a reasonably conscientious thing to do, and makes it fine by me.
As soon as laugh at someone's death, and make judgements on if they deserved it or not, we devalue Human life. That can't be a net positive. No matter what we think of their behavior. .. once your laughing at death, where is the philosophical barrier between that and seeing disabled people as useless eaters?
The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic prevention efforts in the past years despite clear evidence and warnings of the need to do so.
If a kid drowns in a pool where there are no fencing laws, well sure dumb kid, but also..
I've been saving my ire for business, media, and political leaders pushing denialism for ideological and crass personal/political reasons. The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims. The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind.
On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungovernable. I'll point out countries that were successful dealing with covid are either authoritarian. Or have populations that are governable.
Even the old hat anarchists of NZ are all for lockdowns and vacation.
That being said I know a few people who probably hid their automatic weapons rather than hand them in when they got banned.. maybe theres a difference between politically idealistic anarchists and phycologically motivated egoists.
> The hapless people that believed them and died as a result are their victims.
At what point you are gullible person, and when do you turn into willing culprit?
> The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind.
Now they are the real victims and heroes, risking death for someone who willingly put themselves in danger due to their views.
Also laughing at people who died is pointless, they are dead and they don't care for mockery. But I sure target the griefing families that might or might not had hand in antivax movement.
I don't know anyone personally who has been able to convince an anti-vaxxer/vaccine hesitant person to get vaccinated. My friend's unvaccinated sibling died of Covid-19 a few days ago. Sibling wasn't high risk or older. They had argued about it last month. Sibling was consuming conservative media and surrounded by similar folks.
The vaccine didn't work on my Dad. He's on immunosupressive meds so he doesn't reject my kidney. There are hundreds of thousands of American organ recipients just like him. And cancer patients. And HIV+ folks. Etc. He got the newly approved 3rd dose within 24hrs of it being approved. We're hoping he has some antibody response to it.
I understand the death shaming, at least when it comes to people who were actively spreading misinformation. As an example, the conservative radio host who dubbed himself "Mr AntiVax" who just died of Covid-19. The ones grifting off human suffering. It's a place for your anger at the unvaccinated to go.
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[ 22.3 ms ] story [ 1240 ms ] threadI realistically don't know how much the intent is to persuade people to get the vaccine. As they point out, it wouldn't be a good strategy, but at this point, not much is going to change a person's mind over it anyway.
I'm never going to buy the attempts to equate getting a personal preventable illness with willful and malicious disregard of the health of everyone surrounding you.
We're pretty understanding of a person who struggles with alcoholism. We're a whole lot less understanding when they choose to get behind the wheel.
Drinking alcohol?
I think making fun of someone dying is way too harsh.
All that being said I think vaccine certificates should be introduced with some ways of testing out for people that cannot take the vaccine.
This seems like a deflection. Given GP's argument, a better question would be are obese people more likely to spread COVID than non-obese people?
Well, we know someone who has contracted COVID can expect worse outcomes if they're obese.
Given that, it seems safe to assume that obese people are more likely to get breakthrough infections and/or that they have slower recoveries (i.e. more coughing/sneezing and more spreading COVID) than non-obese people.
So it seems reasonable (in a back-of-the-envelope sort of way) to infer that obese folks are more likely to spread COVID than non-obese folks.
Now, back to GP's argument--If we're suggesting that non-vaccinated people are less deserving of healthcare than vaccinated people because they're contributing the the spread of COVID, why wouldn't we treat obese folks the same?
So, tell me, why should a healthy, young person, who already had covid and went through it no problem, take a vaccine that could literally kill them? Because vaccine passports as introduced in some places will majorly mess up the lives of many people.
[0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Co...
In not getting vaccinated there's no pleasure. Only stupidity and ignorance.
I argued that being vaccinated is not comparable to those, because unlike them, your body doesn't have any urge to not vaccinated. It's very easy to get vaccinated. It's just a stupid decision.
I feel not taking the vaccine is a bit different but cannot really express this in an objective way so I guess it is not.
On an emotional level, I can't help but agree. But.. frequently we have to choose between doing what feels good and doing what is effective. Assuming, of course, that we even notice when there is a difference between the two (which, frankly, there very often is).
[edit] They might still.
What is happening today is just the use of anything for the advancement of tribal signaling and catharsis derived from the suffering of the "other."
It exists on every side, acceptability of these behaviors depends largely on in-group vs out-group status of the perpetrator.
Goes beyond tribalism.
Or terrifying.
Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead.
> Explain to us why the behavior is bad, instead.
The words after the headline (attempt to) do that.
I'm sick and tired of people telling me what to do under virtually all everyday circumstances, and especially so when the rationale is faulty (or at least up for debate). It gets even more wearing when they take a long time about it or use an unnecessarily large quantity of words.
If you care about stopping the pandemic, you need to create an environment in which someone can safely stop believing their falsehoods.
You actually have to convince people, regardless of whether or not they deserve your effort in convincing them.
Their worldview needs to change. And little changes worldviews better than a personal existential threat.
Like death.
But, in a few months, all of this shaming and politicizing have done so much damage.
Public health rests on trust, not mocking, not shaming, not coercion.
“Nowhere”? It’s gotten so bad that there are measles outbreaks now.
A vaccinated socialite is far more of a problem than an unvaccinated loner.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Thank you for taking your time to point this out to me.
I hope reddit closes hateful subs like this. Here is a similar article about that sub.
https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/herman-cain-awards
Sure, there is a much stronger social policing of personal attacks and sophomoric comments, but within those bounds, some people appear to feel freer to make genuinely cutting comments and express vitriolic opinions.
Moreover, and I reiterate, IMHSO, the more toxic users on HN tend to be primarily reactionary in political persuasion, whereas, reddit has a much more wider political varieties of jackass. Perhaps this is a result of there not being subHN forums to where people would self-segregate.
++ https://www.oberlo.com/blog/reddit-statistics
My experience with people being toxic or negative or whatever has been mainly people being passive-aggressive or hostile, regardless of politics. Most reactionary content here just gets flagged into oblivion regardless of how it's presented, of course. So the unpleasantness that actually sticks around tends to be either apolitical or liberal/progressive (I find neoliberals are too busy trying to make money to engage in petty arguments!).
Unvaccinated people don’t like and share stories about unvaccinated people having a tube shoved down their throat and then dying alone in a hospital.
The more outrageous the irony, the less it actually appeals to someone who hasn’t gotten the vaccine yet.
Similarly, many of these stories focus heavily on the most crazy, most irrational reasons to not get the vaccine.
Most folks who don’t get the vaccine are coming from very understandable places.
- They may believe that they already got COVID and think that, because they already got it, then they’re “immune” (which is wrong, but reasonable to assume)
- They have heard people they consider smart and reputable, like Eric Weinstein, claim misleading or false statistics about deaths from the vaccine. (Again, wrong, but understandable)
- they may still think that the vaccine is “not FDA approved”, due to poor messaging from the FDA. (It is approved by the way, not just emergency authorization)
- they may not have time to go get a vaccine. Not everyone can take time off work
- they may be afraid of needles, or the side effects, and are unwilling to admit it. I was afraid of the side effects before getting my vaccine (though it turned out fine)
All of these are irrational reasons, since COVID is super contagious, absolutely awful to get, and puts many people, even those who survive, alone in the hospital with a tube shoved down their throat. But they’re reasonable fears; understandable fears.
And shaming people for entirely reasonable fears does not get more people vaccinated.
A lot of people seem to care more about their anger towards unvaccinated people, and their desire to shame them, than actually stopping the pandemic by taking strategies that would actually get them vaccinated.
But they are reasonable fears to have. They’re normal fears, that make sense from their point of view.
They’re factually wrong, but understandable.
The abusive husband has a reasonable fear of being abandoned. The white supremacist has a reasonable fear of losing their jobs to competition. Etc etc
Being able to give a casual explanation for the behavior doesn't justify it. At some point people have an obligation to not harm others.
The only thing that matters is getting them vaccinated. Even if you have to forgive them, even if you have to give them sympathy they don't deserve.
Shaming doesn't work when the half population is unvaccinated. You actually have to convince people, even if they don't deserve the effort.
Because if you don't get them vaccinated, many people will die.
I do disagree with you tactically, though. The percentage of the adults in my country (the US) who have received one dose is closer to 2/3. That leaves about 1/3 of eligible people unvaccinated. This is roughly the same 1/3 of people who don't believe in evolution, and the same 1/3 that believe that Covid is a hoax, or that you can beat it by taking horse dewormer.
Trying to fight this by winning over hearts and minds is like when serious scientists try to debate evolution with creationists. It's a waste of everyone's time. The only way to get the vaccine numbers up is to make vaccines mandatory for school, employment, travel, etc like other vaccines are.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/us/virus-unvaccinated-ame...
I agree with this, but not necessarily for the same reason.
I think this gives a whole lot of people a very clear and easy way to feel like they were still “right”, but to also get vaccinated.
They can blame someone for “forcing” them, but still get vaccinated. This is especially important if they have previously told many people that “they’re not getting the vaccine”.
It lets them out of commitments, and makes them more receptive to real information. Since, when it starts to feel more like you’re going to get the vaccine at some point, you’re more willing to rationalize towards making that okay, rather than rationalizing reasons why not getting the vaccine is okay.
All of my friends who aren't getting the vaccine and vocal about it are pushing some pretty out there reasons. It may have started from relatively reasonable reasons, but it has morphed into an especially vitrolic ideology and in-group signaling rather quickly.
Also, a lot of polls show there is a sticky group of people who will never get it and that population hasn't changed much over time. So at this point there's not much you can move the needle on them via facts and all that.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't stop trying.
Highly recommend the You Are Not So Smart podcast on how to have beneficial discussions with anti-vax individuals. One key is don't use social media (eg in public).
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/08/23/yanss-213-how-to-imp...
I’m not saying you should buy their arguments.
You need to give people an “out”. If folks approach it as proving that the unvaccinated are “wrong”, then it just makes them dig in their heels.
Completely agree with this. Of all the vitriol I see…even on this very thread, it feels more about finding a socially acceptable way of venting hate about groups of people (obese, rural/religious/right-wingers) that they already hated and complained about even before COVID-19 was a thing.
I agree that mocking them isn't productive, but at this stage, it feels more like a coping mechanism. When the world around you stops making sense, what are you going to do, other than laugh?
The entire flatten the curve narrative is about making it last as long as possible.
With deltas R value of 5 to 8 it could be over by Christmas even with vaccines and masks.
I thought it was about reducing total deaths by not overloading health care services.
You hear the same in places where 90% have gotten two shots.
The vaccines don't work so well. If you want to reduce the curve you need to go out 70% less. No one wants to share that getting a vaccine was never enough. We were told just get a shot and it will kill covid you can go back to normal living. The vaccines are not that good.
I feel no sympathy for these people. In fact, I feel less than zero sympathy, because they take up space in hospitals for people that do truly need it, such as children, immunocompromised, or those otherwise unable to take the vaccine. So, I will shame away.
For those saying that many of these people come from an understandable place, I cannot agree. If you read the posts on r/HermanCainAward, most of the people shown are openly mocking the vaccine, that it's a "liberal creation" and it is implied that they are not taking it merely due to it being pushed by the government, that they do not want their "freedoms" (to die or take medicine for animals, I presume) being "infringed."
Mocking their deaths won't convince them to become reasonable, but you can't blame people for feeling schadenfreude.
Sometimes it does. I personally know one person who finally got vaccinated exactly because of these stories—and because of the mockery.
In many places, especially on the net, You have to say "the vaccine is completely safe all the time", not "the vaccine is overwhelmingly safe and effective, some may be at risk of life threatening blood clots, and vaccination does not entirely prevent infection, nor does it guarantee significant protection from future mutations which are expected to continue".
You especially cannot talk about CDC data, you can't compare death/injury of other things, and you can't talk about the 1920's influenza outbreak that killed half a million people.
If you try to talk about those things, you're shamed as a crazy anti-vaxxer whom is going to kill everyone. Even if you've been vaccinated and follow CDC guidelines.
That's how new anti-vaxxers are being made. Otherwise reasonable people are being told they're crazy anti-vaxxers for simply talking about facts, asking important questions, pointing out inconvenient data. The actual experts whom can talk about such things are being drowned out by the flood of reactionaries.
It would be nice if people could talk about this situation in measured calm ways and actually treat reasonable statements as such
And besides personal freedom, in a society you are free to do what affects only you, your freedom should stop where the rights of the rest of the people begins. Should you shame or condemn someone that choose to drive drunk and kills a couple of elderly people in the road? That is what they are doing.
Comparisons with other kinds of deaths that have an ironic reversal component are often comparing far milder scenarios. For the vaccines scenario, to use a phrase from the Monster Factory video series, there are “no middle sliders”.
It’s a free option to not die. If your cultural/political milieu or personal philosophy leads you to not take that free option, it’s at least a little bit funny. If you are a leader or evangelist within that milieu, I think it definitely crosses the line into acceptably openly funny.
Please note that this obviously doesn’t mean I condone every action by people who also think it’s funny. For private persons, a basic attempt to anonymize and unlink humorous comments from the person and their family seems like a reasonably conscientious thing to do, and makes it fine by me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_th...
The reason people are dieing is at least partially because of complete lack of leaders action to fund pandemic prevention efforts in the past years despite clear evidence and warnings of the need to do so.
If a kid drowns in a pool where there are no fencing laws, well sure dumb kid, but also..
On the other hand you have a huge contingent of people in the US who pride themselves on being basically ungovernable. I'll point out countries that were successful dealing with covid are either authoritarian. Or have populations that are governable.
That being said I know a few people who probably hid their automatic weapons rather than hand them in when they got banned.. maybe theres a difference between politically idealistic anarchists and phycologically motivated egoists.
At what point you are gullible person, and when do you turn into willing culprit?
> The doctors and nurse that had to deal with that are victims as are the family left behind.
Now they are the real victims and heroes, risking death for someone who willingly put themselves in danger due to their views.
Also laughing at people who died is pointless, they are dead and they don't care for mockery. But I sure target the griefing families that might or might not had hand in antivax movement.
The vaccine didn't work on my Dad. He's on immunosupressive meds so he doesn't reject my kidney. There are hundreds of thousands of American organ recipients just like him. And cancer patients. And HIV+ folks. Etc. He got the newly approved 3rd dose within 24hrs of it being approved. We're hoping he has some antibody response to it.
I understand the death shaming, at least when it comes to people who were actively spreading misinformation. As an example, the conservative radio host who dubbed himself "Mr AntiVax" who just died of Covid-19. The ones grifting off human suffering. It's a place for your anger at the unvaccinated to go.