This is truly never going to end until people stop obeying.
They will always find new "variants of interest." These people have no interest to end this, they don't experience the same lockdowns or quarantines the rest of us do.
I understand many here are pro-vaccine, but what's life going to be if we need to shut down with every variant, get a new shot in 90 days, have freedom for a bit (days? weeks?) because another variant comes along and we play this game all over again?
If we always "trust our leaders" -- whether political or scientific -- this is going to be the game played. Is this what people want or expect?
i'm on the same boat. However i think we both underestimate how terrified people are of this virus. When people are this scared, you can basically make them do whatever you want.
I don't know a soul who is terrified of this virus anymore.
Seriously, nobody.
I'm sure they exist, I'm told they exist. Many were at first.
Today? nobody I know personally is scared of the virus.
Now I'm sure many on HN will mention somebody they know whose scared of the virus or perhaps they themselves are. I get this, I'm not downplaying anybody's personal experience.
But there is always the exception that proves the rule. Here in NYC, amongst my wide circle of friends and acquaintances, nobody cares about COVID-19 anymore. They are over it.
I'm still taking the risk of COVID-19 seriously, and it's the same with pretty much everyone that I know. The US is not out of this pandemic yet. In some ways I think this is the time to take it more seriously than ever before, considering the transmissibility of the delta variant, and who knows what will happen with these other variants. People are still dying. It is still a deadly virus. I get that people have pandemic fatigue, but I just don't think that this is the right time to let your guard down.
I myself and quite a few other parents of 0-2 are freaked out still, despite the statistical evidence. Seeing one pic of an intubated baby is some real heavy shit for us.
But vaccines for 0+ are on the way, possibly as early as EOY. At that point, with vaccines available for everyone, I see it going the way OP describes.
I have a lot of single friends who mask up for their own health and other's (we're around the age when our grandparents are getting quite frail) but otherwise are pretty much back to normal. I think things are going this way whether or not our leaders or Smartest Guys in the Room like it or not. Masking might stay; the way it's used in Asia - often one wears a mask only if they themselves are feeling cold symptoms. I'd love to see that continued here; nothing worse than some jackamo coughing and sneezing next to you for a full subway ride.
Same even in Seattle, most people are not wearing masks on the streets anymore, everyone is tired, the Media will keep coming up with all the variants they want, until they realize people are not tuning in anymore. At least here, most people are vaccinated [1], regardless what you think about the vaccine, I feel like people will take the risk, and go outside, hang out with friends, walk their dogs, etc... I always felt like, if you are immunocompromised, you should take extra precautions, but pretending other people will change their life just for you, is extremely ridiculous.
> the Media will keep coming up with all the variants they want, until they realize people are not tuning in anymore.
The virus is changing and the changes are being tracked, and then reported by the media. Ignoring that there are variants doesn't make them go away. This was a deadly virus to start with, and so far it seems that some of the variants are even worse. What good does it do to ignore that?
My concern is with the large portions of unvaccinated Americans. If there was a higher vaccination rate nationally, I would be less concerned.
Ignoring it doesn't do any good indeed, fearmongering and using a pandemic to hustle views, doesn't do any good either. People took the shot, what else do you want them to do? To stop living their lives indefinitely? If the virus mutates to the point people drop dead in the streets, then people will find a way to protect themselves, and get the shot. Some people just don't see themselves in danger(not me, I got mine in April), so is their call to get it or not.
> Ignoring it doesn't do any good indeed, fearmongering and using a pandemic to hustle views, doesn't do any good either.
I think that's happening on both sides of the political spectrum. Politicians and political parties will take whatever is going on in the world to push their agenda (and the news outlets follow along).
> People took the shot, what else do you want them to do? To stop living their lives indefinitely?
I don't think people should stop living their lives. I'd just like them to be aware of what's going on and take it seriously. I see some parts of America not wanting to wear a mask or get vaccinated, however, they definitely want their spot in the ICU if they got a serious COVID case. I think that they should consider that some of the newer variants may be more dangerous, and maybe revisiting the idea of getting the shot could be a good idea, that is all.
Let's not confuse changing behaviors with giving up.
I don't wear a mask outside anymore because the evidence I've seen seems to indicate that spread in outdoor settings for incidental encounters is extremely unlikely between vaccinated people, and a cloth mask is unlikely to make the difference.
So you think mRNA vaccine is more effective than millions of years experienced and evolved immune system? I would like so but I'm afraid that's not the case.
The vaccines (of all types) aren't somehow an alternate to our immune systems, they're a way to boost our immune systems' response. And yes, they do make the immune system significantly more effective in responding to COVID infection. Go read this: https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/israeli-data-how-can-...
>The vaccines (of all types) aren't somehow an alternate to our immune systems, they're a way to boost our immune systems' response. And yes, they do make the immune system significantly more effective in responding to COVID infection.
Vitamin D and Vitamin B are also a way to boost our immune system. Why should I get vaccinated if I'm young and healthy and can take Vitamin D and Vitamin B.
How should I know if my immune system is strong enough to respond and heal from COVID and how should I know what are long term side effects of mRNA vaccine?
You should get vaccinated so the rest of us can get back to our lives.
People have known about the vitamin D connection since almost the beginning of the pandemic and it wasn't until the vaccine was rolled out in the United States that cases and deaths dropped to all time lows. (and then delta variant happened)
Besides, the findings on vitamin D are weak at best, were not even sure if the relationship is causal.
The research is sparse, but the point isn't whether the effect exists, it's that if vitamin D supplements provided 90+% protection against catching covid in the same way mrna vaccines do, it would be more obvious.
This isn't going to get much better so long as we have such a large unvaccinated population playing host to mutations and clogging up the hospital system.
Unfortunately our immune systems aren't that great at dealing with COVID-19. This has been extensively tested over the last year and a half, with the result that well over 4 million people have died (so far).
Is there a reason that you and many others default to the assumption that our leaders must be lying to us about covid? Not accusing, just curious why. Is it that hard to believe that there actually is a novel virus circulating which is quite deadly to some people, and perceived by many to be a legitimate risk? Likewise, it is that hard to accept that currently no-one really knows how to 'stop' it? Is inaction, denial and protest really the best solution to a challenge like this?
I don't know, but it's likely that a knee-jerk reaction against any and all intervention-- which is seemingly where things are in much of the US-- is not an intelligent or informed strategy.
Many societal problems are improved by 'taking our freedoms.' We enforce speed limits because fatalities are much more likely at speeds above 65 MPH, and many people speed or drive recklessly when they are running late.
I hope we can trend towards finding some 'happy medium' between burdensome interventions with limited impact and just letting covid 'rip' through vulnerable populations.
It's certainly true that in most democratic countries, older (and higher risk) people are a powerful voting block. From a moral perspective it also seems good to protect our elders. I would hope that when I am old, the younger generation does not just put me out to pasture.
I have heard many advance the solution that older/high risk people should just stay home, but that's not really feasible either. Many elderly people live alone. Everyone needs basic supplies, medical care, social interaction etc, and each of these presents a vector for infection.
I'm sure there is an optimal solution where the most effective interventions are deployed to protect the vulnerable, without massively inconveniencing everyone. There is no reason we should accept 1000+ deaths per day as normal. The problem is that neither side in this debate seems remotely willing to compromise and/or do the experimentation needed.
My personal opinion is that a large subset of adults is either unable or unwilling to accept that bad things can happen for no reason and there isn't always a solution.
> They will always find new "variants of interest."
Right, they've found variants. It seems like you're implying that they are "chicken little" and the variants are some sort of "ploy."
Except that "these people" identified variants that were many times more contagious, and predictably those variants went on to cause the exact problem you'd predict, large sudden spikes in cases, and waves of hospitalizations and deaths all at once.
Don't blame the messenger. In terms of interest to end this, I'd say the anti-mask, anti vaccine folks are the ones with no interest to end this. It's a bad plan to let covid brew strain after strain in unprotected hosts and just see what happens.
This is a preposterously cartoonish way to characterize what is in fact a very complicated world full of billions of people all acting with very individual motivations, all trying to sort things out in what is actually a pretty frustrating situation.
I can assure you, there is no "they". And, no I'm not "obeying" -- I've almost never done that in my life -- I'm behaving rationally in the self-interest of myself and my loved ones and the society I live in.
Don’t you know that caring about other human beings means you’re just a stupid sheeple who does what they’re told? The media and the elites just want to control your mind man… just take you a big ol bong rip of covid infected air and set your mind free!
Obama throws a party and nobody is wearing masks. The Mayor of Washington DC has a wedding and gives herself an exception for all the included rules. Bill Gates, etc. don't ever need to quarantine when traveling. If you think Bill Gates isn't traveling much, I can assure you that other media figures such as Nicole Kidman are. [0]
Classic.. Effectively calling everyone else sheep and insulting their intelligence by accusing them of "obeying" some nameless cabal. Then turn around and claim to be condescended to.
Doctors and epedemiologists are not Obama or Bill Gates or Nicole Kidman. I've never liked or respected any of those people in my life, and I'm not sure why you think they are inspiring "obedience." That's not where public health directives have been coming from.
Over the last year, hundreds of communities around the world have enacted public health measures based on the imperfect but mostly best information known at the time that those decisions were made. "They" weren't listening to Obama, or the Mayor of Washington. Most of the world doesn't even live in the United States. It's only really in the US where this has been played as some sort of "right" / "left" partisan divide, too.
My points still stand. Most of us have been acting in rational self-interest, not out of "obedience." You're the one being condescending.
"They" and "these people" can be a reference to some shadowy unnamed cabal.
But it can just as easily be a clumsy shorthand for a disorganized preponderance of authoritative institutions and individual actors whose interests are aligned and mutually reinforcing in such a manner as to move society along a particular trajectory which is considered undesirable by the interlocutor.
There's no good ready-made term for that which can't also be taken to imply deliberate centrally managed coordination, unfortunately.
> a very complicated world full of billions of people all acting with very individual motivations
That is a naive perspective. You really think everyone is acting on their own accord? Most just want to follow along and don't question anything. Peer pressure is the norm. History is full of examples.
Also, what a massive coincidence that the disagreement is aligned with politics, right? You would think a real threat to humanity would create a more unified response, and partisan perspectives would be lethal to hold. We're approaching 2 years of a deadly virus, yet the disagreements are intensifying, not dissipating.
It's only aligned by "politics" in crazy-town USA. Conservatives in other parts of the world haven't taken anti-vax positions, and while they've been milder in their lockdowns and mask mandates, they've still enforced them.
Also, if you think threats yield unified responses, I'm not sure which history books you've been reading.
There are plenty of protests happening around the world, whether you're aware of them or not. The 20th century has proven authoritarian regimes can take over almost every country except USA.
We don't have to go that far back to see how a crisis can unite a country. Take for example 9/11. The division came later but not during the incident itself, and that wasn't even threatening people's lives directly.
Presence does not mean campaign. I think people had some unrealistic expectations for the vaccines, partly from poor communication from leaders, maybe mostly from misunderstanding, and those expectations (realistic or not) are not being met.
I would claim that very few people understood that this was very likely permanent, when it started. Many people are now realizing this, and are afraid, angry, and confused.
I agree, especially about the poor communications from leaders part... the overwhelming official message (as I have experienced it) has been "vaccines will save us". There was never any serious attempt to add ventilation to schools and public places, nor to set reasonable expectations about how much a vax can do when it isnt distributed to the whole world (aka there is still a ton of circulating virus & new variants forming all the time).
I have found this immensely frustrating. And now people who have been trusting those official sources are finding themselves surprised, confused, and, yes, scared.
I didn’t start commenting about the vaxx until I learned I’m losing my job by not taking it. We might be a minority, but that minority will become more vocal once it starts ruining our lives.
I already had longcovid 14 months (Mar 2020 - Jun 2021) so whatever restriction/punishment someone wants to impose on me for not taking the advice of mainstream doctors… it can’t be any worse than longcovid.
Yes, I'm finding it a bit mindboggling how the tone here has swung. There's definitely a vocal minority that chimes in on this subject across all sorts of threads, regardless of the original topic.
I think it has to do with the fact that people realize that these days basically vaccinated people stand in direct conflict to the the anti-vaxxers. So, earlier it appeared as if people could just do whatever they pleased (get a vaccination or not), but now everyone comes to the realization that this is not enough (at least not in the US and other countries, look at Denmark to see that it can be enough. But there over 80% of all over 12 year olds have been vaccinated. Thats miles ahead of e.g. US). This means that people who do not want to be vaccinated feel threatened in their choice because the public mood is at a tipping point (also because there are some vaccination orders coming for certain groups, e.g. military).
Anti-vaxxers think their choice is theirs. But with rising hospitalization their choice means not just more deaths, but also tough choices for politicians and businesses in deciding how much they let people die instead of going into another lock-down. If more people were vaccinated this choice wouldn't have to be made. This is why vaccinated people are getting more irritated against anti-vaxxers. And also why anti-vaxxers are fighting for their choice and opinion.
The information around this particular variant is still rather limited. It is good news that so far it has not become widespread in the US and it is not considered an immediate thread right now. Question and answer (from Fauci) is at 20:30 in this video:
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[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 121 ms ] threadThey will always find new "variants of interest." These people have no interest to end this, they don't experience the same lockdowns or quarantines the rest of us do.
I understand many here are pro-vaccine, but what's life going to be if we need to shut down with every variant, get a new shot in 90 days, have freedom for a bit (days? weeks?) because another variant comes along and we play this game all over again?
If we always "trust our leaders" -- whether political or scientific -- this is going to be the game played. Is this what people want or expect?
Seriously, nobody.
I'm sure they exist, I'm told they exist. Many were at first.
Today? nobody I know personally is scared of the virus.
Now I'm sure many on HN will mention somebody they know whose scared of the virus or perhaps they themselves are. I get this, I'm not downplaying anybody's personal experience.
But there is always the exception that proves the rule. Here in NYC, amongst my wide circle of friends and acquaintances, nobody cares about COVID-19 anymore. They are over it.
No. Get vaccinated and move on.
But vaccines for 0+ are on the way, possibly as early as EOY. At that point, with vaccines available for everyone, I see it going the way OP describes.
I have a lot of single friends who mask up for their own health and other's (we're around the age when our grandparents are getting quite frail) but otherwise are pretty much back to normal. I think things are going this way whether or not our leaders or Smartest Guys in the Room like it or not. Masking might stay; the way it's used in Asia - often one wears a mask only if they themselves are feeling cold symptoms. I'd love to see that continued here; nothing worse than some jackamo coughing and sneezing next to you for a full subway ride.
[1] https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccinatio...
The virus is changing and the changes are being tracked, and then reported by the media. Ignoring that there are variants doesn't make them go away. This was a deadly virus to start with, and so far it seems that some of the variants are even worse. What good does it do to ignore that?
My concern is with the large portions of unvaccinated Americans. If there was a higher vaccination rate nationally, I would be less concerned.
I think that's happening on both sides of the political spectrum. Politicians and political parties will take whatever is going on in the world to push their agenda (and the news outlets follow along).
> People took the shot, what else do you want them to do? To stop living their lives indefinitely?
I don't think people should stop living their lives. I'd just like them to be aware of what's going on and take it seriously. I see some parts of America not wanting to wear a mask or get vaccinated, however, they definitely want their spot in the ICU if they got a serious COVID case. I think that they should consider that some of the newer variants may be more dangerous, and maybe revisiting the idea of getting the shot could be a good idea, that is all.
I don't wear a mask outside anymore because the evidence I've seen seems to indicate that spread in outdoor settings for incidental encounters is extremely unlikely between vaccinated people, and a cloth mask is unlikely to make the difference.
Vitamin D and Vitamin B are also a way to boost our immune system. Why should I get vaccinated if I'm young and healthy and can take Vitamin D and Vitamin B.
How should I know if my immune system is strong enough to respond and heal from COVID and how should I know what are long term side effects of mRNA vaccine?
People have known about the vitamin D connection since almost the beginning of the pandemic and it wasn't until the vaccine was rolled out in the United States that cases and deaths dropped to all time lows. (and then delta variant happened)
Besides, the findings on vitamin D are weak at best, were not even sure if the relationship is causal.
The research is sparse, but the point isn't whether the effect exists, it's that if vitamin D supplements provided 90+% protection against catching covid in the same way mrna vaccines do, it would be more obvious.
This isn't going to get much better so long as we have such a large unvaccinated population playing host to mutations and clogging up the hospital system.
Vaccinated people can still spread virus but I know at lower rate that's what you gonna tell me..whatever
"just trust us"
Many societal problems are improved by 'taking our freedoms.' We enforce speed limits because fatalities are much more likely at speeds above 65 MPH, and many people speed or drive recklessly when they are running late.
I hope we can trend towards finding some 'happy medium' between burdensome interventions with limited impact and just letting covid 'rip' through vulnerable populations.
many of them are also older and in higher risk groups, could that factor into their decisions?
I have heard many advance the solution that older/high risk people should just stay home, but that's not really feasible either. Many elderly people live alone. Everyone needs basic supplies, medical care, social interaction etc, and each of these presents a vector for infection.
I'm sure there is an optimal solution where the most effective interventions are deployed to protect the vulnerable, without massively inconveniencing everyone. There is no reason we should accept 1000+ deaths per day as normal. The problem is that neither side in this debate seems remotely willing to compromise and/or do the experimentation needed.
Right, they've found variants. It seems like you're implying that they are "chicken little" and the variants are some sort of "ploy."
Except that "these people" identified variants that were many times more contagious, and predictably those variants went on to cause the exact problem you'd predict, large sudden spikes in cases, and waves of hospitalizations and deaths all at once.
Don't blame the messenger. In terms of interest to end this, I'd say the anti-mask, anti vaccine folks are the ones with no interest to end this. It's a bad plan to let covid brew strain after strain in unprotected hosts and just see what happens.
This is a preposterously cartoonish way to characterize what is in fact a very complicated world full of billions of people all acting with very individual motivations, all trying to sort things out in what is actually a pretty frustrating situation.
I can assure you, there is no "they". And, no I'm not "obeying" -- I've almost never done that in my life -- I'm behaving rationally in the self-interest of myself and my loved ones and the society I live in.
"they" = governments and corporate media.
Obama throws a party and nobody is wearing masks. The Mayor of Washington DC has a wedding and gives herself an exception for all the included rules. Bill Gates, etc. don't ever need to quarantine when traveling. If you think Bill Gates isn't traveling much, I can assure you that other media figures such as Nicole Kidman are. [0]
[0] https://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-quarantine-exemption-nicole...
Doctors and epedemiologists are not Obama or Bill Gates or Nicole Kidman. I've never liked or respected any of those people in my life, and I'm not sure why you think they are inspiring "obedience." That's not where public health directives have been coming from.
Over the last year, hundreds of communities around the world have enacted public health measures based on the imperfect but mostly best information known at the time that those decisions were made. "They" weren't listening to Obama, or the Mayor of Washington. Most of the world doesn't even live in the United States. It's only really in the US where this has been played as some sort of "right" / "left" partisan divide, too.
My points still stand. Most of us have been acting in rational self-interest, not out of "obedience." You're the one being condescending.
But it can just as easily be a clumsy shorthand for a disorganized preponderance of authoritative institutions and individual actors whose interests are aligned and mutually reinforcing in such a manner as to move society along a particular trajectory which is considered undesirable by the interlocutor.
There's no good ready-made term for that which can't also be taken to imply deliberate centrally managed coordination, unfortunately.
That is a naive perspective. You really think everyone is acting on their own accord? Most just want to follow along and don't question anything. Peer pressure is the norm. History is full of examples.
Also, what a massive coincidence that the disagreement is aligned with politics, right? You would think a real threat to humanity would create a more unified response, and partisan perspectives would be lethal to hold. We're approaching 2 years of a deadly virus, yet the disagreements are intensifying, not dissipating.
Also, if you think threats yield unified responses, I'm not sure which history books you've been reading.
We don't have to go that far back to see how a crisis can unite a country. Take for example 9/11. The division came later but not during the incident itself, and that wasn't even threatening people's lives directly.
I would claim that very few people understood that this was very likely permanent, when it started. Many people are now realizing this, and are afraid, angry, and confused.
I have found this immensely frustrating. And now people who have been trusting those official sources are finding themselves surprised, confused, and, yes, scared.
I already had longcovid 14 months (Mar 2020 - Jun 2021) so whatever restriction/punishment someone wants to impose on me for not taking the advice of mainstream doctors… it can’t be any worse than longcovid.
Anti-vaxxers think their choice is theirs. But with rising hospitalization their choice means not just more deaths, but also tough choices for politicians and businesses in deciding how much they let people die instead of going into another lock-down. If more people were vaccinated this choice wouldn't have to be made. This is why vaccinated people are getting more irritated against anti-vaxxers. And also why anti-vaxxers are fighting for their choice and opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptF6y5ZIglI