I hope there is somebody as brave as she was in the current government of South Africa. The plight of Dutch farmers there getting murdered en mass is a sad state of affairs.
The crime is bad in South Africa, yes, but it's not the worst in the world. Same with the corruption. One good thing South Africa has going for it is that the media and judiciary are stil independent, and criticising the government is seen as a public duty. South Africa also has a higher GDP per capita than Ukraine. Yes, it is one of the most unequal countries in the world, but the rather cynical consequence of that is that if you're in the middle class, your life is on par with that of a middle-class American.
Unfortunately the level of inequality plays a role here. If you’re happy rolling in affluent areas the “real” level of risk you’re exposed to is much lower.
I doubt you can completely insulate yourself from the environment though. Criminals at some point start targeting the rich with all kinds of methods, "protection" payments (extortion) etc. Or what do you do if someone points a gun to your head to rob your car? Are you expected to drive everywhere with body guards?
But that's besides the point... you would never go into those places (i.e black townships) at night. That's when the murders happen. Lots of stabbings etc at shabeens. I assume that in Brazil and Mexico you have a high chance of being mugged on the street and such.
This happened to me at red light in Claremont (a Cape Town suburb.) Stopped at a red light at night and was ambushed by a guy wielding a crowbar. Hit the gas just in time and went straight through the light without checking for traffic.
It seems to me like this whole issue became political. Progressive left: SA crime rates aren't that bad, Whites have it good there. They are privileged. Conservative right: SA is collapsing into a mayhem of corruption, rape and murders.
As usual we are all mostly captives of our world views and opinions and talk past each other. I am starting to see myself more and more in the political center because of these biases on both sides.
"Both sides" is not a particularly good cognitive tool, in my experience. They are mostly illusory sides anyway, there are as many sides as there are people. I've personally even been accused of having "inconsistent political views" at times, as if it was a cardinal sin.
Have you heard of something called "luxury belief" by any chance? seems fashionable these days to spout obvious nonsense.
I think you are mistaken, many people completely align themselves with their ideology and the political camp they belong to. It's becoming very uncommon to voice a different opinion that is contrary to the "tribe" you belong to.
Try saying something good that Trump has done (could be anything, surely there must be something) to democrats and tell me how it went.
In Europe you don't have to be affluent to live relatively safely. And murder rates in SA are around 8 times higher than in the U.S, you could make the same claim that most people killed in the U.S are gang related. It's still 8 times worse in SA and I really doubt the middle class is 100% unaffected by this. Yes the extremely rich maybe do not care, not everyone is very rich.
I am in an upper middle class neighborhood myself. I didn't say crime doesn't exist in SA, nor did I say that the middle class is 100% unaffected. However - using the murder rate alone is misleading. I don't worry about crime but we do have an alarm system just in case. In areas closer to crime hot spots, the community watches and private security often do a good job keeping the riff raff away.
You are correct, violence and sexual violence are a big issue in South Africa. By no means was I trying to say that it isn’t but there’s a big difference between being a “rape capital” and having high rates of sexual violence.
The term “rape/murder capital of the world” is often perpetrated and encouraged by neo-nazi pundits to stoke “white fear” with miss representations of the facts. This is why it’s important to understand the nuances and context of these statistics inorder to avoid falling into the dogmatic conversations.
You could counter this argument by saying that to minimize the problem is anti feminist. The term "rape capital" indeed sounds hyperbolic but maybe it will help mobilize the people in charge there to do something about it.
On the other note, please refrain from such lame attempts at "guilty by association" tactic. No need to drag your local boogie man into international discussion.
Apologies I didn’t mean to paint you as such. I went ahead and edited my original post to be less aggressive.
I just wanted to point out that this is a frequent talking point peddled by American neo-nazies that is frustratingly repeated on the internet with little honest interrogation.
I want to continue living here but it is quite scary sometimes, we have a lot of crime. But mostly we live quite normally, I think it would remind you of the USA in a lot of ways.
According to Wikipedia 54-74 white farmers have been killed in South Africa in the past 5 years. Compared to the annual murder rate of 20,000 per year that seems negligible. How is this comparable to apartheid at all? Also I would hardly call 10 people being killed a year en mass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks?wpr...
The linked article quotes 54-74 white farmer murders _annually_. Even at two white farmers per farm in South Africa that implies a murder rate at least 2x above the national average with large enough total counts to be significant.
I'd also wager a guess that most South African farmers are not white (they own 70% of farm land mass, but with no real evidence I'd imagine the farms are on average much larger than what was left for the locals), which would push that 2x stat much higher.
Edit: On the other hand, I do think it would be interesting to compare the rate to farms of similar sizes and different races, should that data exist somewhere. With murder rates 2-~20x above average I wouldn't be totally surprised if the common factor were just extra wealth or something.
>I'd also wager a guess that most South African farmers are not white
Given the demographics, not an unfair guess, albeit a lazy one. No, not even close.
Land reform is a controversial topic in my country so I'm just going to TL;DR the past 5 decades and provide some links[0][1] that you are going to have to be very sceptical about (given the controversial nature of the debate).
- We have one of, if not the, highest wealth gaps in the world as a direct result of Apartheid
- Unsurprisingly, land ownership is rare
- Ergo, most of the land is owned by the wealthy class, who are the white minority.
- I am not offering an opinion on the racial aspect here, violent crime affects all South Africans equally
You are somewhat correct.
Official statistics on murders broken down by race and land ownership are difficult to find so it makes having a conversation on the topic difficult. The statistics that are available on white farm murders indicate that their murder rate is within the average for for rural/farm areas. Infact the murder rate of black men in rural areas is even higher then white farmers.
Here are additional sources if you or anyone else would like to know more on the topic;
So if I'm getting it correctly, that's roughly 0.44 deaths per 1M capita per year in the US, and 1.1 comparable deaths per 1M capita per year in South Africa? Well, then it seems at least comparable to US lynchings, if not slightly higher. (Your link sadly doesn't provide distribution in time so I have to calculate with average population in that period.)
These lynchings were really grisly. People would gather around, they would carve up the body and take organs as trinkets. There were also mass attacks on black people, like in Tuscon.
Here in South Africa we do have lots of violent killings, but white farmers aren't killed at a greater than national average level. In fact the highest murder rate is among cape coloureds in the cape flats.
My comment is about what would happen today, in the very different political and ideological climate. The word decolonization would be dropped quite a few times
Your comment makes no sense. There is no white genocide. It is propaganda from the right wing. I don't know what else to tell you. Other than stop being a ring winger?
Agree. OP needs counselling ASAP. This is not his first comment like this.
First, call whatever free service exists in your country (hopefully) or even one friend (try to pick only one). Just pick someone and tell them you need their help. Then make and keep an appointment with a professional.
It deals with American and Japanese tacit support of the regime (despite US sanctions on "computer technology" being sold to the ZA government) and the types of (IBM) systems running at the time.
If you're ever in Johannesburg, please set aside time to visit the Apartheid museum. It's a very moving experience, not least because it's so recent...
That's interesting, and yes there was significant infiltration, by a handful of dedicated underground spies. But the idea that there was widespread communist sympathies or subversion needing some kind of crackdown, there's no evidence for that. Quoting from the article above:
>As anyone who is reasonably familiar with the history of the period must know, the premise for most of the McCarthy rehabilitation literature is a sort of blanket historical amnesia. To credit the revisionist argument, you must believe that mid-century liberalism denied the threat of domestic and global communism and took no stand against it. But this was scarcely the case. Not only mainstream liberals, but also most left-liberals and social democrats adopted a staunchly anticommunist stance from the middle 1940s onward. The model here, of course, is Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., whose seminal work The Vital Center identified the dangers of communism and castigated the muddle-headed thinking of those on the left who thought it either possible or advisable to cooperate with communists even while disagreeing with their larger objectives. But Schlesinger was scarcely alone. The social democrat Walter Reuther employed stern and even draconian measures to purge communists from the CIO in the 1940s. And even the perennial Socialist Party presidential candidate Norman Thomas supported efforts to ban communists from teaching positions on the grounds that they had surrendered their right to academic freedom through subservience to Moscow.
While cynically suppressing all the sibirian natives and ethnic groups themselves (crim tartars, jews etc.).
Some people on the left part of the totalitarian spectrum, just project a utopia on some remote dystopia place and then go for it like that skycastle is real.
To be fair no one is saying that SA is peaceful and prosperous. For example Google News is showing me now "Vigilante killings" when I type South Africa, there are a lot of stories about the violence and corruption going on there. A few months earlier there were stories about the water supply collapsing.
I think it's common knowledge that SA is dysfunctional.
Yes this is a moral conundrum, the Apartheid should have ended but the situation didn't really get better for many people in SA. It's a bit like the U.S withdrawal from Afghanistan maybe; it should have happened but no it's probably not gonna improve things for the average Joe there.
It will take (a lot of) time. After apartheid the new ANC ruling party took over, but it is rife with corruption and as a result most state owned entities are being (or have already been) run into the ground.
The leadership have enriched themselves, whereas the poorest segment of the population remain as poor as they were 30 years ago.
Tribalism is still playing a large factor in the country and there are no visible great leaders ahead. All the politicians are still playing the let's blame apartheid card to score points with the people on the ground, but they have very little actual plans in place to make things better.
The upper class taxpayer base is emigrating and unemployment is growing, which is driving crime and general unrest. Add in the corruption and government is struggling to finance anything worthwhile, so as a result they have to keep inventing new taxation, which again drives emigration.
78 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 140 ms ] threadRecent riots don’t count :P
If you just keep out of dodgy areas, you're pretty safe.
SA still feels super chill and safe compared to say Brazil or Mexico.
Criminals might shoot you in the head just to steal the vehicle.
Does that sound like a "much lower" level of risk?
Have you heard of something called "luxury belief" by any chance? seems fashionable these days to spout obvious nonsense.
I think you are mistaken, many people completely align themselves with their ideology and the political camp they belong to. It's becoming very uncommon to voice a different opinion that is contrary to the "tribe" you belong to. Try saying something good that Trump has done (could be anything, surely there must be something) to democrats and tell me how it went.
I do not live in a security estate and I have never in my life been exposed to crime.
This does not mean SA crime stories are untrue, but I think it's important to maintain perspective here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
There are a few reasons for this;
* Different definitions of rape across countries and time
* Rape offences are counted differently
* An echo-chamber effect - lazy journalism
* Under-reporting rates are unknown and are often extrapolated by Statistics South Africa
You can find out more at this report created by AfricaCheck - a non-partisan media and statistics watchdo;
https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/why-its-wrong-ca...
The term “rape/murder capital of the world” is often perpetrated and encouraged by neo-nazi pundits to stoke “white fear” with miss representations of the facts. This is why it’s important to understand the nuances and context of these statistics inorder to avoid falling into the dogmatic conversations.
On the other note, please refrain from such lame attempts at "guilty by association" tactic. No need to drag your local boogie man into international discussion.
I just wanted to point out that this is a frequent talking point peddled by American neo-nazies that is frustratingly repeated on the internet with little honest interrogation.
I'd also wager a guess that most South African farmers are not white (they own 70% of farm land mass, but with no real evidence I'd imagine the farms are on average much larger than what was left for the locals), which would push that 2x stat much higher.
Edit: On the other hand, I do think it would be interesting to compare the rate to farms of similar sizes and different races, should that data exist somewhere. With murder rates 2-~20x above average I wouldn't be totally surprised if the common factor were just extra wealth or something.
Given the demographics, not an unfair guess, albeit a lazy one. No, not even close.
Land reform is a controversial topic in my country so I'm just going to TL;DR the past 5 decades and provide some links[0][1] that you are going to have to be very sceptical about (given the controversial nature of the debate).
- We have one of, if not the, highest wealth gaps in the world as a direct result of Apartheid
- Unsurprisingly, land ownership is rare
- Ergo, most of the land is owned by the wealthy class, who are the white minority.
- I am not offering an opinion on the racial aspect here, violent crime affects all South Africans equally
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_South_Africa
[1]: https://www.gov.za/sites/default/files/gcis_document/201802/...
Here are additional sources if you or anyone else would like to know more on the topic;
https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/factsheets/factsheet-sta...
https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/reports/are-sa-whites-re...
https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/spotchecks/claims-about-...
https://africacheck.org/fact-checks/blog/analysis-why-calcul...
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynching...
Here in South Africa we do have lots of violent killings, but white farmers aren't killed at a greater than national average level. In fact the highest murder rate is among cape coloureds in the cape flats.
Well I hope it would correctly be called the cynical capture of farms by a few connected elites and not a real redistribution of wealth.
First, call whatever free service exists in your country (hopefully) or even one friend (try to pick only one). Just pick someone and tell them you need their help. Then make and keep an appointment with a professional.
"In Canada, please call 1.833.456.4566 (24/7) or send a text to 45645 (4pm to midnight ET)."
https://www.crisisservicescanada.ca/en/
(this is an ANC publication from 1989)
It deals with American and Japanese tacit support of the regime (despite US sanctions on "computer technology" being sold to the ZA government) and the types of (IBM) systems running at the time.
https://disa.ukzn.ac.za/sites/default/files/pdf_files/sejan9... for instance.
Publication appears to have been monthly.
https://disa.ukzn.ac.za/Collection
By Nicholas von Hoffman April 14, 1996
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:n8iPc5...
https://prospect.org/power/exhuming-mccarthy/
>As anyone who is reasonably familiar with the history of the period must know, the premise for most of the McCarthy rehabilitation literature is a sort of blanket historical amnesia. To credit the revisionist argument, you must believe that mid-century liberalism denied the threat of domestic and global communism and took no stand against it. But this was scarcely the case. Not only mainstream liberals, but also most left-liberals and social democrats adopted a staunchly anticommunist stance from the middle 1940s onward. The model here, of course, is Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr., whose seminal work The Vital Center identified the dangers of communism and castigated the muddle-headed thinking of those on the left who thought it either possible or advisable to cooperate with communists even while disagreeing with their larger objectives. But Schlesinger was scarcely alone. The social democrat Walter Reuther employed stern and even draconian measures to purge communists from the CIO in the 1940s. And even the perennial Socialist Party presidential candidate Norman Thomas supported efforts to ban communists from teaching positions on the grounds that they had surrendered their right to academic freedom through subservience to Moscow.
Some people on the left part of the totalitarian spectrum, just project a utopia on some remote dystopia place and then go for it like that skycastle is real.
The leadership have enriched themselves, whereas the poorest segment of the population remain as poor as they were 30 years ago.
Tribalism is still playing a large factor in the country and there are no visible great leaders ahead. All the politicians are still playing the let's blame apartheid card to score points with the people on the ground, but they have very little actual plans in place to make things better.
The upper class taxpayer base is emigrating and unemployment is growing, which is driving crime and general unrest. Add in the corruption and government is struggling to finance anything worthwhile, so as a result they have to keep inventing new taxation, which again drives emigration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMuXcUKtzaA
In fact I see more continuity than change, there is still a wealthy elite running the country the only difference is that now some of them are black.