In terms of how the other nations responded? Of course it was. They had to put on a good show for their citizens.
The other eyes nations all understood the NSA & Co. had cooked up exceptionally broad technology. They all lied and pretended to be surprised and outraged. That faux outrage was for domestic propaganda consumption, because the alternative to that is to admit they were party to some of what the NSA has been up to for decades.
All major affluent nations - without exception - understood the US had an intense global spy machine. That has been true for ~70 years now. Many of them are part of that machine. Of course they don't all know every program the US is working on, that makes little difference in whether they grasp the basics though. The know what the NSA does, they all have their own intelligence agencies, and they all partner with the US in one way or another.
And some of those faux outrage nations are top tier spying nations themselves, including Russia and China. They lied and pretended to be surprised or shocked at what the US was doing. The point of that is similarly pure propaganda (in that case both for a domestic and international audience, it was a good opportunity to jab the US on propaganda).
You are wrong. Most nations either don't have the capability to spy on foreign diplomats to this degree or it would be too risky for them to try - because they don't have the political power to survive repercussions.
Then there's also nations - which may be surprising to US citizens - where government agencies respect laws, international agreements, and diplomatic immunity as a matter of process. It takes a particular kind of arrogance and belief in their immunity to repercussions to disregard these out of their own volition - without any instruction from country leadership.
The ones from government officials certainly was. You seriously think governments don't spy on each other? As if any politician in the world can poop without it being recorded.
Israel isn’t a very big or globally powerful nation, so I’d be very surprised if they care enough about minor nations not in their immediate area to even bother trying most places.
>Israel isn’t a very big or globally powerful nation
Israel has enormous influence over the most powerful nation on earth through AIPAC. Every president meets with them. Every Congressman goes to Israel as "tradition". Many federal representatives are dual Israeli/US citizens.
Sure, and there’s a big gap between that and asking “How many countries don't have high level officials reporting to Israel?”, which is what I was replying to.
Even without the USA having been a major destination for the Jewish diaspora while the point of modern Israel being a safe place for Jewish people[0], the global importance of the USA makes the American government a target for almost all other nations to try to influence.
America gets this from both a the motive and opportunity directions. Most places, Israel has neither, IMO.
[0] at least that’s what I was taught. If this isn’t the case, someone please tell me.
Most of what you are saying is irrelevant and so it comes across as an attempt at obfuscation. Israel isn't "very big"? Wow, case closed. It must not be powerful, even though it is producing the most powerful spyware in the world. Brilliant.
Governments' have been known to be in the spying game since humans formed societies and kingdoms emerged. ( https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24749166 ). Even our modern postal system are somewhat developed on the Roman model of its own messenger service, which was mainly created for easy spying and to protect the rulers from espionage. ( https://www.historynet.com/espionage-in-ancient-rome.htm )
Pegasus is just a tool, and we shouldn't be shocked that a government owns or even uses such a tool. Our only concern should be whether the use of such tools are well-defined and legal, and upholds our democratic values.
A functional and thriving democracy ensures that those voted to power cannot abuse their privilege. Or those who do abuse it cannot do so without repercussions.
We can see this in action in India today, where the current Modi government in power is accused of abusing this very privilege and using Pegasus to spy on activists, journalists and opposition leaders that the Modi regime considers a threat to itself ( https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/explained-pegasus-and... ).
If true, that's a gross abuse of power, and a threat to India's democracy. Pegasus isn't the worry here - if a government in power doesn't have any respect for democracy, that threat will remain whether Pegasus exists or not.
Opposition politicians have already raised the issue in the Parliament. Some of the concerned citizens, who believe they were the target of such surveillance, have already filed petitions in the Supreme Court of India, and the court has summoned the government to explain and defend itself ( https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/pegasus-case-supreme-cour... ).
If the allegation are true, this case will reveal how much the "checks and balances" of Indian democracy have failed (indicating that it has become a dysfunctional democracy). Or the revelations of this case may just strengthen indian democracy, with more checks and balances by the court and (who knows) maybe even stronger privacy laws.
Germany (or any other country) too should have the same concerns - worry about your democracy and stronger privacy laws. Pegasus is irrelevant in the larger scheme.
A functional and thriving democracy ensures that those voted to power cannot abuse their privilege. Or those who do abuse it cannot do so without repercussions.
-
They always break the law and abuse it. And there are no repercussions for breaking the law. George W Bush onwards there is precedence for lack of liability or repercussions. The same applies to all other countries and sets the inspiration for them for the all tracking surveillance state, which will always be abused. Restrictions exist to curtail and limit human nature. Once those restrictions are removed or above the law then we all subjects are at the mercy of the elites and their elite narrative. Woe to those who try to defy this Brave New World.
Meta comment. The problem with these stories is that there's no follow-through. The generalization (the current top comment, by newbamboo) harms the narrative, because it gives the sense that everyone is doing it, there's nothing to be done, etc. This is wrong. Each wrong needs a persistent state machine to track the facts, who's responsible, what action can be taken, what action has been taken to rectify, until there is a conclusion, one way or another. This will often take the form of either a court case or a legislative process. Each of which can take years.
All of us are helpless in 99.9% of injustices done, because they happen in another place, or because we aren't involved in the affected systems. That fact does not mean that injustice cannot be rectified! It just means we need to encourage those in a position to make a positive change to do so. Don't fall into the trap of equating a global lack of efficacy with a lack of local efficacy.
What I'm trying to say is: don't get disheartened or depressed by the onslaught of injustice you read about all over the world. Take care of the things you can affect, and give moral support to the others doing the same in their region.
So, let's hear it from the Germans! Whatcha gonna do?
Quick update: I just sent a short & friendly email to my local member of parliament asking him about his position on the matter. Took about 10 minutes.
Around these parts, that would turn gp from a concerned citizen into a lobbyist, with all the regulations and what not that entails. I dunno about where you're from, but the moral is be careful when publicly paying people to petition their government.
You know what, you're right. Regardless of what the law says, my offer potentially reduces the act of civic participation to something to be paid for, rather than something that is an intrinsic good. A small evil that, at scale, becomes a great evil.
So I say instead to the GP: cheers! I drink a toast to you and your efforts. May they be impactful!
German here: Angela Merkel (our chancellor) didnt even seem to care that the NSA had tapped her phone (1). The newly released cybersecurity strategy wants to backdoor all encrypted services (2).
Sure you can encourage your local politicians to do "something". You can "protest" and maybe the federal politicians will even "admire" your cause. But realistically, there's nothing to be done.
No right-minded person would claim that mere determination leads to success. You need a lot of other things, including knowledge, luck, and more. However, it is correct to assert the contra-positive: if you don't try, then you will fail 100% of the time.
But, to empathize with you, I understand the concern. It is disheartening to think that your efforts may go to waste, and result in...nothing. Worse than nothing, because you've paid the opportunity cost of the attempt. This is real.
The mitigation is to reduce your opportunity cost. Send a letter to your legislature, an email to a newspaper. Talk to your friends about the issue. The positive effect is that you're broadcasting a truth, and maybe someone will respond.
(Also, chicks dig a guy who actually believes in shit.)
"The mitigation is to reduce your opportunity cost (...) Also, chicks dig a guy who actually believes in shit."
Man feels himself to be responsible, but he is not. He does not feel himself an object, but he is. He has been so well assimilated to the economic world, so well adjusted to it by being reduced to the homo economicus, in short, so well conditioned, that the appearance of personal life becomes for him the reality of personal life. Ellul, 1954
"Anybody can look at a pretty girl and see a pretty girl. An artist can look at a pretty girl and see the old woman she will become. A better artist can look at an old woman and see the pretty girl that she used to be. But a great artist-a master-and that is what Auguste Rodin was-can look at an old woman, portray her exactly as she is...and force the viewer to see the pretty girl she used to be...and more than that, he can make anyone with the sensitivity of an armadillo, or even you, see that this lovely young girl is still alive, not old and ugly at all, but simply imprisoned inside her ruined body. He can make you feel the quiet, endless tragedy that there was never a girl born who ever grew older than eighteen in her heart...no matter what the merciless hours have done to her." - Heinlein
And so it is with us, and our beautiful, human sense of morality, responsibility, and integrity, ravaged by time and the requirements of practicality.
> He can make you feel the quiet, endless tragedy that there was never a girl born who ever grew older than eighteen in her heart...no matter what the merciless hours have done to her." -
Yeesh. I'm glad I've met a lot of 'girls' who are actually grownups, not teenagers in more wrinkly skin.
It is truly remarkable the effort people make to express outraged offense. It requires so much! It would not be enough to ignore the point, which is about hope in the face of political hopelessness, you then had to then ignore the gist of the quote, which is that beauty is obscured by time, never lost, and then the coup de' grace, manufacture an attack! All of this to rise up to defend women from that attack, speaking down to the cruel jackal(s) that would reduce divine womanhood to nothing more than a piece-of-ass in this abhorrent way!
You, sir, are a true inspiration to anyone who ever searched for offense. You've shown clearly that all it takes is grit and determination, and you can find it, right there for the taking, that juicy plumb of outrage. Bravo, and well done!
You sound more a lot more outraged than me. I thought the Heinlein quote is kind of gross because it sits on the idea that the high point of a woman's life is to be 18. I'd feel similarly it if you replaced 'girl' with 'boy'.
It's also funny when people try to be poetic but just reproduce some of the most ordinary and depressing sentiments of their society. Something you and Heinlein have in common, I guess.
The quote speaks to the body, and it's representation in art. It acknowledges that the body decays and this is great suffering. Yet the inside is still filled with life and love, in defiance of the outward decay, and a great artist can show this. That in fact the bodies decay is even more interesting and beautiful than the beauty of youth and health.
By characterizing the quote in the way you have, you've willfully ignored this intent, which was clear in the quote and in my usage of it. You've denied the beauty of decay, the notion that value can be ascribed to the elderly.
And why, because Heinlein acknowledges what we all know, that the two universal indicators of attractiveness are youth and health? And that we lose both over time?
In any event, this is my last message on this thread; I've made my point. As for poetry, yes, I try and usually fail. But I try, and I will keep trying no matter what.
Yeah I agree we are pretty much done here. All (major) countries are treating this "feature" of "must-have" and once you give the bureaucratic some power it is almost impossible to take it away from them.
> Angela Merkel (our chancellor) didnt even seem to care that the NSA had tapped her phone
That's because she perhaps knows better than anyone that Germany also spy on the US; work with the US to spy on other countries; or in general, all intelligence agencies spy?
> everyone is doing it, there's nothing to be done, etc. This is wrong.
Well, what can be done about it? The US is not gonna stop spying just because they got denounced and certainly no country will declare war on them over it.
They all want to partake in the spying, that's the central issue for countries like Germany. It's the same across all of the 5|9|14 eyes groups of nations. They know exactly what the bargain is that they're accepting. They all know exactly what they're doing. No modern nation is so naive. Nobody else comes close to the global spying capabilities of the US, the other eyes nations all know that and they all want access to it.
Germany has been knowingly helping to make the US global spying capabilities more potent for most of the post WW2 era.
If you're Germany what you do is take whatever limited corrective counter measures that you can and attempt to improve the security of Merkel's communications, while seeking to maintain continued access to the US global spying machine.
> So, let's hear it from the Germans! Whatcha gonna do?
Nothin' I tell ya, because Pegasus isn't going to be used against me, but against this anti-vaxx scum which is challenging the policies that I very much support.
Seriously though, there are some prolific civil liberties lawyers that might start a legal case. Private citiziens surely won't becaue they'll either be labled a "Russian Disinformant" (if they have a Russian Passport) or a "Russian Disinformant-ed" (if their Vorratsdatenspeicherung has one "fringe" news outlet in it).
There are a finite number of no-click mechanisms on the iPhone which accepts content from arbitrary actors on the internet. If you disable them, there are precious few ways to get hacked without user interaction.
If you disable iMessage, FaceTime, emails, etc, you still need to worry about the WiFi, Bluetooth, and cellular stacks. Obviously disabling them all turns your smartphone into something less useful.
But I would argue that this isn’t unique to iPhone. There is more highlighting of iPhones because Apple is better at logging indicators of compromise on the device, so the audit trail of attempted/successful infection is better on Apple devices.
In the past, some of the worst CVEs that affected Apple devices were pulled in from upstream open source projects. The core issue is not limited to closed-source projects (although I personally would like to see Apple support more red teamers to bang on their products).
I don't understand the jab at closed source but I also find it weird people are so proud of software designed by least common denominator coders to be given, pleadingly, as charity to mega-corps.
This reminds me of a good Yes Prime Minister scene[0]. The context for the scene is that the PM denied bugging a Member of Parliament's phone, but the civil service was actually bugging it unbeknownst to the PM. The explanation behind why the PM wasn't informed seems pretty relevant.
Germany claims they only used it on terrorists and organized crime members... I feel like one of the main issues is people still remember that thing Germany did way back when when they considered all Jews to be terrorists...
60 comments
[ 3.9 ms ] story [ 87.4 ms ] threadThe other eyes nations all understood the NSA & Co. had cooked up exceptionally broad technology. They all lied and pretended to be surprised and outraged. That faux outrage was for domestic propaganda consumption, because the alternative to that is to admit they were party to some of what the NSA has been up to for decades.
All major affluent nations - without exception - understood the US had an intense global spy machine. That has been true for ~70 years now. Many of them are part of that machine. Of course they don't all know every program the US is working on, that makes little difference in whether they grasp the basics though. The know what the NSA does, they all have their own intelligence agencies, and they all partner with the US in one way or another.
And some of those faux outrage nations are top tier spying nations themselves, including Russia and China. They lied and pretended to be surprised or shocked at what the US was doing. The point of that is similarly pure propaganda (in that case both for a domestic and international audience, it was a good opportunity to jab the US on propaganda).
Then there's also nations - which may be surprising to US citizens - where government agencies respect laws, international agreements, and diplomatic immunity as a matter of process. It takes a particular kind of arrogance and belief in their immunity to repercussions to disregard these out of their own volition - without any instruction from country leadership.
Israel has enormous influence over the most powerful nation on earth through AIPAC. Every president meets with them. Every Congressman goes to Israel as "tradition". Many federal representatives are dual Israeli/US citizens.
Even without the USA having been a major destination for the Jewish diaspora while the point of modern Israel being a safe place for Jewish people[0], the global importance of the USA makes the American government a target for almost all other nations to try to influence.
America gets this from both a the motive and opportunity directions. Most places, Israel has neither, IMO.
[0] at least that’s what I was taught. If this isn’t the case, someone please tell me.
Pegasus is just a tool, and we shouldn't be shocked that a government owns or even uses such a tool. Our only concern should be whether the use of such tools are well-defined and legal, and upholds our democratic values.
A functional and thriving democracy ensures that those voted to power cannot abuse their privilege. Or those who do abuse it cannot do so without repercussions.
We can see this in action in India today, where the current Modi government in power is accused of abusing this very privilege and using Pegasus to spy on activists, journalists and opposition leaders that the Modi regime considers a threat to itself ( https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/explained-pegasus-and... ).
If true, that's a gross abuse of power, and a threat to India's democracy. Pegasus isn't the worry here - if a government in power doesn't have any respect for democracy, that threat will remain whether Pegasus exists or not.
Opposition politicians have already raised the issue in the Parliament. Some of the concerned citizens, who believe they were the target of such surveillance, have already filed petitions in the Supreme Court of India, and the court has summoned the government to explain and defend itself ( https://www.livelaw.in/top-stories/pegasus-case-supreme-cour... ).
If the allegation are true, this case will reveal how much the "checks and balances" of Indian democracy have failed (indicating that it has become a dysfunctional democracy). Or the revelations of this case may just strengthen indian democracy, with more checks and balances by the court and (who knows) maybe even stronger privacy laws.
Germany (or any other country) too should have the same concerns - worry about your democracy and stronger privacy laws. Pegasus is irrelevant in the larger scheme.
A functional and thriving democracy ensures that those voted to power cannot abuse their privilege. Or those who do abuse it cannot do so without repercussions.
-
They always break the law and abuse it. And there are no repercussions for breaking the law. George W Bush onwards there is precedence for lack of liability or repercussions. The same applies to all other countries and sets the inspiration for them for the all tracking surveillance state, which will always be abused. Restrictions exist to curtail and limit human nature. Once those restrictions are removed or above the law then we all subjects are at the mercy of the elites and their elite narrative. Woe to those who try to defy this Brave New World.
All of us are helpless in 99.9% of injustices done, because they happen in another place, or because we aren't involved in the affected systems. That fact does not mean that injustice cannot be rectified! It just means we need to encourage those in a position to make a positive change to do so. Don't fall into the trap of equating a global lack of efficacy with a lack of local efficacy.
What I'm trying to say is: don't get disheartened or depressed by the onslaught of injustice you read about all over the world. Take care of the things you can affect, and give moral support to the others doing the same in their region.
So, let's hear it from the Germans! Whatcha gonna do?
So I say instead to the GP: cheers! I drink a toast to you and your efforts. May they be impactful!
Sure you can encourage your local politicians to do "something". You can "protest" and maybe the federal politicians will even "admire" your cause. But realistically, there's nothing to be done.
(1): https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2019-02/abhoeraffaer...
(2): https://marketresearchtelecast.com/cyber-%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8Bs...
Wenn ein Mann denkt, dass nichts getan werden kann, dann kann nichts getan werden.
Just gonna leave this list of events where the villains were brought to justice:
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/us_atrociti...
But, to empathize with you, I understand the concern. It is disheartening to think that your efforts may go to waste, and result in...nothing. Worse than nothing, because you've paid the opportunity cost of the attempt. This is real.
The mitigation is to reduce your opportunity cost. Send a letter to your legislature, an email to a newspaper. Talk to your friends about the issue. The positive effect is that you're broadcasting a truth, and maybe someone will respond.
(Also, chicks dig a guy who actually believes in shit.)
Man feels himself to be responsible, but he is not. He does not feel himself an object, but he is. He has been so well assimilated to the economic world, so well adjusted to it by being reduced to the homo economicus, in short, so well conditioned, that the appearance of personal life becomes for him the reality of personal life. Ellul, 1954
And so it is with us, and our beautiful, human sense of morality, responsibility, and integrity, ravaged by time and the requirements of practicality.
Yeesh. I'm glad I've met a lot of 'girls' who are actually grownups, not teenagers in more wrinkly skin.
You, sir, are a true inspiration to anyone who ever searched for offense. You've shown clearly that all it takes is grit and determination, and you can find it, right there for the taking, that juicy plumb of outrage. Bravo, and well done!
It's also funny when people try to be poetic but just reproduce some of the most ordinary and depressing sentiments of their society. Something you and Heinlein have in common, I guess.
By characterizing the quote in the way you have, you've willfully ignored this intent, which was clear in the quote and in my usage of it. You've denied the beauty of decay, the notion that value can be ascribed to the elderly.
And why, because Heinlein acknowledges what we all know, that the two universal indicators of attractiveness are youth and health? And that we lose both over time?
In any event, this is my last message on this thread; I've made my point. As for poetry, yes, I try and usually fail. But I try, and I will keep trying no matter what.
That's because she perhaps knows better than anyone that Germany also spy on the US; work with the US to spy on other countries; or in general, all intelligence agencies spy?
https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...
Well, what can be done about it? The US is not gonna stop spying just because they got denounced and certainly no country will declare war on them over it.
Germany has been knowingly helping to make the US global spying capabilities more potent for most of the post WW2 era.
If you're Germany what you do is take whatever limited corrective counter measures that you can and attempt to improve the security of Merkel's communications, while seeking to maintain continued access to the US global spying machine.
Nothin' I tell ya, because Pegasus isn't going to be used against me, but against this anti-vaxx scum which is challenging the policies that I very much support.
Seriously though, there are some prolific civil liberties lawyers that might start a legal case. Private citiziens surely won't becaue they'll either be labled a "Russian Disinformant" (if they have a Russian Passport) or a "Russian Disinformant-ed" (if their Vorratsdatenspeicherung has one "fringe" news outlet in it).
You should assume there are more zero days in iOS than any engineering team could possibly patch, given the history of other closed source software.
There are a finite number of no-click mechanisms on the iPhone which accepts content from arbitrary actors on the internet. If you disable them, there are precious few ways to get hacked without user interaction.
If you disable iMessage, FaceTime, emails, etc, you still need to worry about the WiFi, Bluetooth, and cellular stacks. Obviously disabling them all turns your smartphone into something less useful.
But I would argue that this isn’t unique to iPhone. There is more highlighting of iPhones because Apple is better at logging indicators of compromise on the device, so the audit trail of attempted/successful infection is better on Apple devices.
In the past, some of the worst CVEs that affected Apple devices were pulled in from upstream open source projects. The core issue is not limited to closed-source projects (although I personally would like to see Apple support more red teamers to bang on their products).
Don't know which possibility is worth, that they really didn't inform him, or that they did and lie about.
[0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=NX45hc0aZt0
We need to demand accountability for the countries that supply, and use these tools of terror.