I've had a similar experience. A few hours into every workday I'd end up with shoulder pain. I ended up building my own split keyboard, and keeping each half spaced out roughly as wide as my shoulders entirely solved the problem. In hindsight the shoulder/arm position for a normal keyboard is just outright terrible... if you're even moderately broad you're so bunched up to type.
I just got one, but I'm still using my old SteelSeries Apex M500 for work though because I'm just too slow to do my job effectively using it still. The learning curve is higher than I thought, even after remapping most of the keys to my preferences - just need to give it some time!
The split wireless keyboard from FalbaTech dramatically decreased back pain, headaches, and migraines. My keyboards are kept at a minimum 50cm apart, and I can move them freely depending on comfort (because they are split AND wireless!). Highly recommend them!
I made the jump from dual keyboards to a Kinesis Freestyle (2) almost a decade ago. Honestly sometimes I think about going back.
I had dual MS Sculpt keyboards for a while, & loved the curve. It's easier to spread the keyboards out far wider than with the pretty short cable Kinesis keyboards usually come with (some keyboards have an XL option). Also Kinesis seems allergic to build a regular-plain-old function-key row, and it seriously hampers usability, even after years of use on this keyboard.
The best part is definitely being in an office, and people thinking I was working on multiple things at once.
Once you try the 21" separation Kinesis freestyle you won't go back (assuming you know how to touch-type). Being able to keep your arms at shoulder length apart releases a lot of tension you'd otherwise have by brining your arms literally together to type.
For me, the problem with the Kinesis, is that the modifier keys are all in different locations than the laptop keyboard. I still need to use that when I'm away from my desk. So now I have to Apple Magic keyboards.
> I tried a few of those Kinesis split keyboards. Too squishy for me. Not far enough apart. The CherryMX Kinesis split keyboard was is too clickey for calls and screenshares. Muscle memory made it difficult to switch.
This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me.
Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander which have two physically separate bodies, one for each hand. There are many different models of these with various shapes and sizes, and you can separate them as much as you like. The normal advice is to set them up around shoulder width apart so you aren’t rounding your back to bring your arms together.
Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick)
I have been using a Moonlander for a couple of years now, and an EZ before that. They are expensive at around $400 but I don’t think I can ever go back. Most of these split keyboards also run QMK so you can setup binds, layers, and generally configure them however you like.
I found R-Go Tools Split to be a nice and light keyboard for my mobile rig. The only annoyance was the throbbing light in the corner. But a patch of tape fixed that. The stock cable wouldn't allow placing the parts as far apart as in the article though.
> Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander
Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and split segments was the mainstream.
> Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick)
But even the most silent switch can't compete with the absorption of a normal rubberdome. Stiff matter hitting stiff matter always produces some noise, and most people don't know how to use mechanical keyboards correctly to reduce this.
That is half the answer. When I let people try my mechanical keyboards, especially the Cherries, I emphasize that the goal isn't to mash the key until it no longer goes down. Rather, the goal is to stop mashing somewhere between the actuation point (usually ~2mm) and the end of key travel (usually ~4mm). This corresponds to 45-60 grams of force depending on switch type, and staying in this range makes for a relatively quiet experience on quiet switches.
But nothing is going to quiet the sound of switches designed to give audio feedback, such as the Cherry Blues. I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.
> But nothing is going to quiet the sound of switches designed to give audio feedback, such as the Cherry Blues. I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.
Do people really get that upset about a keyboard that clicks a bit?
Back when I was in open offices the annoyances were people yelling to each other with me in between, people singing, private phone calls etc. A click wouldn't even have registered.
There is a difference between someone pressing a button now and then, and a person that actually writes 8-10 cps. You don't give them an audio feedback keyboard or you will go deaf.
After Googling for an embarassingly long time I think I'm figuring out what gasket mounting is.. how does that meaningfully changed how the keyboard feels? Just makes the whole typing surface a little flexible / bouncy?
I had to google this as well. It looks like the idea is to move the surface that the key switches attach to, to a sub-assembly, which can then be mounted in a variety of slightly-more-flexible sub-assembly. This is the kind of minutae I would have loved to get into when I was younger. The closest analogy I can think of is a solid body (standard) electric guitar, vs. a semi-hollowbody electric guitar, although the mechanics are very different, ultimately you're attempting to modify the percussive effect by modifying the frame.
There are a couple different techniques, but it really all boils down to dampening/softening the bottom out with rubber or silicone somewhere in the case sandwich. It gives it some “give” beyond the travel of the switch. A thick desk mat does this a bit too.
Yes, the board I'm currently using is gasket mount and sitting on a nice thick pad which helps, but what takes it to the next level is U4 Boba Silent linear switches, which are ridiculously quiet. Altogether I barely even hear myself typing, I can't imagine it's terribly audible over video calls.
> Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and split segments was the mainstream.
Indeed, I saw the title of this post and I wondered if the poster was looking for a setup similar to the Freestyle... and it turns out they were!
I made the switch a couple of years ago from a standard layout mechanical to the "Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB" (nominally a gaming keyboard, but I don't use the gaming features) and would not go back. This device can't achieve quite as much separation as the "dual keyboard" approach in this blog entry, but it's not too far off.
As for the switches, in addition to the mechanical version with its various switch options, they also make a rubber dome variant of this keyboard, which happens to be cheaper.
Just to be clear on the distinction, are we terming 'split segment' the keyboards in two halves that have (roughly) half the usual keys on each device, and saying purist's 'split keyboard' is.. two 'normal' keyboards?
Nothing is 'split' in the latter though? I've never thought 'split keyboard' a misnomer in referring to two pieces that look like a keyboard sawn (often carefully around staggered keycaps) in half, i.e. split?
No. It's hard to explain, but split segment looks like this: https://imgur.com/a/kjWmciy (so, one physical keyboard, just with a very different layout)
Split keyboards are usually 2 separate keyboards with half the key each.
Oh I see, thanks. I have seen those, just didn't think of it - they seem strictly worse than two separate halves to me, the main thing that appeals to me (I don't have one) is positioning either have however, at whatever angle, and differently to the other, to suit me and how I happen to be sitting at the time. Split segment seems to make a big assumption about what people find uncomfortable (narrow/er than shoulders) and offer a different fixed solution.
> (nominally a gaming keyboard, but I don't use the gaming features)
Yeah I gave up and learned to love that there’s a big gaming market for the keyboard I want, even though I don’t want the flashy backlight colors. It’s weird but now I mostly shop for gaming keyboards and then filter out where I can’t turn off the gaming-specific stuff.
If you don’t mind a little DIY effort and effect you can cut the cable between the halves and splice in a longer cable. Had a coworker who did that and was very happy.
I am owner of Kinesis Freestyle Pro too. I bought the keyboard with a tilt kit and pads. I am using it with macbook and I must admit that mac layout could be better (option and command keys are too small). Besides that the keyboard itself takes a lot of space on my desk, it is really huge compared to other keyboards that I had (including The Code keyboard).
Split design is definitely a win, but I needed some time to get used to it. After about a month keyboard started to feel natural. To be honest I would like to see a medical research on using various keyboard types. Personally I don't feel much difference compared to typing on macbook. Most problems that I had with my wrists where always connected to using mouse.
I happen to be shopping Kinesis Freestyle keyboards today. A common complaint is the ABS keycaps combined with something in the case design echoes the switch noise, even with Silent Reds.
Lower quality keycaps at the Kinesis price range being be main gripe on the Freestyle Pro.
> But even the most silent switch can't compete with the absorption of a normal rubberdome. Stiff matter hitting stiff matter always produces some noise, and most people don't know how to use mechanical keyboards correctly to reduce this.
I mostly agree. That said, my Keychron K1 (red switches, v3 so this may be out of date) is not noticeably louder to my very noise sensitive ears than a similar Apple low profile keyboard. It’s the first mechanical keyboard I’ve owned that hasn’t drawn laughs or ire in remote meetings.
I suspect the quietness is because the low profile keys bottom out inside the case rather than keycaps hitting the casing. There’s still the sound of the switch, but even if I were a better typist with more sensitive reflexes I’d hear that.
I’ve tried a lot of other “quiet” mechanical keyboards. The Matias one was softer at the expense of having a more rubber dome feel while typing (and like every Matias I’ve owned the switches went glitchy and eventually failed). The other “for the office” (brand I can’t recall) red switch keyboard I had… well, I think it was as annoying to me as everyone else.
And, not trying to shill the product (and again I have no idea if v4 has regressed), but I also have a very noise sensitive puppy who hops up and gets distracty if I so much as bump anything on my desk. She’s just as calm with the K1 as my MBP’s built in keyboard.
The switches might not be to everyone’s liking. But there’s definitely room for mechanical keyboards to be less loud than they are even used less effectively than intended (i.e. me).
I have the Keychron K1 (also red switches) and an Apple keyboard in front of me right now. The K1 is significantly louder at normal typing forces. ~60dB vs ~45dB using a sound meter app.
I have accessibility needs so I use soft keyboard and a trackpad. I keep the keyboard at an angle on the closed laptop but the trackpad was on a flat surface which caused some wrist fatigue.
I join the keyboard and the trackpad together with a double sided tape[1] with a metal scale to the bottom for added rigidity and now I can use both of them at a preferred angle. I no longer have wrist fatigue as I can rest them on a flat surface while both typing and tracking.
It took me years to find a split, ergo-style keyboard with mechanical keys, but I finally did. The freestyles have them, but I don't like the super flat layout.
> Split keyboards group keys into two or more sections. Ergonomic split keyboards can be fixed, where you cannot change the positions of the sections, or adjustable. Split keyboards typically change the angle of each section, and the distance between them. On an adjustable split keyboard, this can be tailored exactly to the user. People with a broad chest will benefit from an adjustable split keyboard's ability to customize the distance between the two halves of the board. This ensures the elbows are not too close together when typing. [2]
I had the kinesis advantage 3 for a little over a week. I have to say by far the most comfortable keyboard I have every used. I returned it because I didn't have the spare time to "adjust" to the layout. Its funny its been months and I still miss the feeling lol.
A week? Well, how much time do you expect to spend typing over the next 10 years...?
It took about a month or two to adapt IIRC. I would suggest to remap and reconfigure some keys/layout after observing your actual usage. Also change a few uncomfortable application key combos and relearn, especially if you're not using a US layout.
Reprogramming (swapping) keys is easy, but I admit it was a big hassle to also keep a custom layout synced/working between Windows and Linux over the years. But it's great once it's done.
By now I'm owning three kinesis advantage, one at the office, one at home, and one to make sure I never have to type on a flat keyboard ever again if anything breaks. I get RSI just from looking at those.
I also tried a fully split (freestyle2) keyboard, but it didn't work for me. I think it was the lack of the bowl shape.
My Kinesis Freestyle 2 has a "pivot" hinge that is removable. Once it is removed it allows the two halves to be entirely separate and up to 8" apart. I took the hinge out years ago.
Note, the Kinesis Advantage is the one with "cups" that have keys in them in single keyboard.
The Kinesis Freestyle is split into two halves and unlike the Ergodex or similar it's just a standard keyboard layout which makes jumping back and forth between other computers less of a hassle.
I picked up a Kinesis Freestyle 2 last year, with the longer (20" I think) cable, and it's been wonderful. Standard QWERTY, and the cable is long enough that I'm in a comfortable typing position leaning fully back into my chair with my arms sitting on the armrests.
Only complaint is that the macro buttons off to the side just emit standard key presses (eg Cut sends Control+x), which I guess means I should look into the Freestyle Pro which _is_ programmable :)
As a buyer of both the original Freestyle Pro and the Edge (first edition, pre-rgb), I endorse this message. Either keyboard will likely take your pain away, but the Edge is the better option.
The Edge has everything that was missing from the Pro. It truly is the perfect keyboard, in my opinion: split, backlit, mech switches, fully (and easily) programmable, multiple layouts, internal memory, extra macro keys. What more could one ask from a keyboard...? The only shortcoming is that the keycap profile is custom, so it's hard to pimp if you are into color schemes, but that's it. I don't understand why they chose to market it to gamers, when it's the perfect hacker's tool, but I guess them kids are more willing to splash the cash these days.
After dropping coffee on it for the N-th time, I left it outside to dry. I didn't notice that the location I placed it had direct sunlight - plus, it was during the summer.
One of the spacebar keycaps warped to the point of being unusable. I tried several options (including attempting to 3d print a replacement). Was almost giving up, emailed support.
They sent a replacement keycap, for free. For the Freestyle Edge - the one with the blue backlight, that's discontinued.
I'd say the major drawback that it has is the "gaming" name, which makes it awkward to get your company to expense :)
I'll add another drawback: the switches are not removable either. So if you wanted to replace your switches with different ones (for instance, WASD), you really can't (practically).
I'm curious, is the Moonlander enough of an upgrade over the EZ to be worth dropping that sort of money on a second keyboard? What are the big differences you've actually noticed having made the jump?
I don't have any experience with the Ergodox, and I loved the Moonlander when I first got it. But having used it for about 8 months now I really don't like how they've implemented the tenting -- the thumb cluster ends up too far away, making the inner most thumb keys on both sides unreachable (for me).
I'm likely going to replace it with something with better designed thumb clusters when I can (probably a Kyria or maybe a Corne variant).
I have both. I agree with the gripes about the thumb cluster acting as a pivot, it's not an optimal design but it's plenty comfortable for me.
The big reason I wanted to try it is the thumb layout is more ergonomic and conducive to chording. On the right thumb cluster I map the four keys to 15 bit encoded layer. I don't _use_ all that space, but I have over a thousand keypoints at my disposal.
But I do use the bottom 3 (plus base) quite heavily. It's more ergonomic to move frequent keys to near home rows in a higher space.
Having recently gotten back into mechanical keyboards, partially for ergonomic reasons, I can say the Moonlander so far is the single board I regret purchasing.
Almost $400 for a board that is so poorly designed you have to choose between a usable thumb cluster position or a comfortable tenting angle, because the thumb cluster is used as one of the tenting legs. So unless you have giant hands, it's just a very poor experience compared to some other boards I've tried. For far, far less.
And to fix this, instead of revising the Moonlander, ZSA is happy to sell you an $80 tripod kit, tripods not included.
You can get the benefits of a split board for a _fraction_ of the price by getting something like a Lily58 or a Corne, which have far saner thumb cluster designs, and have plenty of solutions for tenting. And if you're like the author of the linked article who can't handle high travel keys, both of those boards are available with low profile mechanical Choc switches.
Not to discredit your experience, but as another data point: I love my Moonlander. I love it so much, I have two, actually.
Personally, I find the thumb clusters most comfortable in a position that also gives a good tenting angle, but I think criticizing coupling the two is fair.
That said, I'm not sure how the tripod kit would help you solve that one way or the other. I thought it was designed to go on the outside, not where the thumb clusters are.
I have a Lily58 that I’m still getting used to, got any tenting tips? So far I’ve only been putting a towel under the far end to angle it a bit, which is far from ideal.
I have seen people using various different size rubber feet on the bottom to tent their lily, I believe they used a mixture of large rubber bumpers intended for roombas, and the normal small bumpons.
There should also be a variety of 3d printed solutions too, I've seen tenting feet you can screw on to the bottom and cases that let you use large screws on the outside to create tenting legs
Yeah, I can't imagine the Moonlander being a great fit for someone with normal/small hands. I got a Moonlander and happen to love it. Though, I really wish they hadn't decided to make the thumb cluster a tenting leg. I think that's my biggest complaint about it.
ZSA does sell a tenting leg kit that I believe should allow you to swap the thumb cluster screw for a leg, but I haven't tried it myself. It's only $24. Additionally, they have a 3d-printable file for a tenting leg that should work as well, if you happen to have a printer.
The Dactyl Manuform and Ergodox are also decent options for anyone looking for something like the ZSA Moonlander but don't want to deal with the Moonlander's issues. The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.
In fairness to ZSA, I did miss that page on printable files. I do still think it's a little silly to need to print a new leg for the board to remedy probably the biggest design flaw.
>The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.
For what it's worth, I used to think the same thing, and now I happily do all my daily programming work on a Reviung41, which has even less keys than the Corne.
Totally agree with you there. I really think they should start shipping with a second set of "inside" legs for those who want to use a tenting leg instead of using the thumb cluster.
I'll probably get to a smaller key count eventually. I'm almost finished adjusting to the Moonlander now, and it took me almost two months to get used to the loss of the separate F1-11 keys. They're now on the number row in a new layer, so I figure with enough time I'll get used to that and can toss more into other layers, but that's proving to be a slower process for me. I think I've had this board for almost 8 months now (had to look up my shipping info, as I thought it had been much less).
I really do love the fact that the mech keyboard community has spawned so many great keyboards, as it makes it so easy to find something that fits you best, and makes it so easy to customize.
I’m hooked on the ergodox classic, but I’ve used an ergodox variant of some kind for at least 6 years now and won’t go back.
The little ortho-linear keyboards that are popular now make me cringe, they look worse than laptop keyboards.
I was toying with the idea of picking up the moonlander, but it looks kind of big. The wrist rests seem ridiculously large. Can you use the tenting feature without them?
If you take the Moonlander apart, you can probably remove the wrist rests and it would still tent fine.
However large it may seem, the size seems good to me. I only actively use (i.e. place my hand on) maybe 2/3 of it, but the remainder makes it so that the angle is more comfortable than I imagine it would be if it were shorter.
It's worth mentioning I have relatively large hands. If you don't, you might need a fair bit less space.
Though I haven't gotten one yet, the Kyria also has some nice thumb clusters. You can print out the layout[1] to test how it lines up with your fingers.
I have made my own keyboards before, hand-wired with 3D printed cases, and it's probably 20-40 hours of work; significantly more than the $400 that ZSA charges.
I agree that they messed up the thumb clusters. I used to use an Ergodox and that had a pretty goofy arrangement, and the Moonlander doesn't really improve on it.
This guy seems to have given up too soon. There are also normal spilt keyboards like the UHK. And even cheaper Chinese options like the Mistel Barocco. These Chinese keyboards are what most people should get if they need a split keyboard.
Normal keyboard layout, just split. Connected by a coiled USBC to USBC cable that you could replace with a longer cable.
I use the Mistel which fine for me. The layout never bothered me, just the distance between the halves and the lack of tenting.
They are also programmable which is useful when you can’t use software to remap your keys.
I ordered my UHKv2 in January and ended up buying a Dygma Raise in the meantime while I wait. I'm sure the UHK will be a lovely keyboard, when it finally ships.
Well I for one will say I did a lot of research on split boards about a year ago and never came across Mistel. It even has my preferred tenkeyless arrow placement!
Yeah, it’s hard to get information about them and they have the weird names. I only know about them because certain suppliers around here stock them and a friend had some other mechanical keyboard from them.
I got a UHKv1 from an early adopter friend (who had multiple UHKs) and have loved it. It was hard getting used to it at first, but it was the only keyboard that didn't make my forearms ache, when my tendonitis flared up.
Also on the UHK v1 and have since not been able to use anything else. Especially because of fast layer switching, home row arrows and mouse layer. Although checking out the Dygma Raise now :)
I have the kinesis with 20" cable. wish it were slightly longer for cases like 'one side on the couch arm', but it's a million times better than angling my hand around a laptop touchpad
layout slightly awkward. escape key is off in the wilderness, keep hitting F1 by accident. Wouldn't mind Y and B keys duplicated so I can hit them with either hand.
A well built ergonomic split keyboard with high quality switches will certainly provide a better experience than two cheap chiclet keyboards placed side by side.
And that's without the auxiliary benefits like freeing up additional desk space, a longer lifespan, and ease of repair.
Layerkeys that avoid long stretches. It is just so comfortable. You might have heard how nice hjkl is compared to using arrow-keys, imagine ~that for the entire keyboard.
Straight columns are superior. Think about it, look at your right hand and how the columns aligns with the keys underneath it. Pretty good huh? Now look at your left and you will probably struggle to explain how anyone could ever justify it, it is absolutely horrendous.
I would recommend the corne. It's cheap to build and once you get used to 40% split ortho you won't look back. As a software engineer it has been my daily driver for years.
Great list! I have the Koolertron (aka SmartYao) and love it. (Though I don't recommend the version with backlit keys) Before that I had one called the Comfort Keyboard. I wore a groove into the spacebar over a decade of use. My favorite feature of split keyboards is programming the left spacebar to backspace.
I find it really odd that the OP is staring down the barrel of an RSI that's going to inexorably lock them (presumably) out of their career and passion, but the learning curve for a proper ergonomic keyboard seemed to high. I was up to an acceptable 40WPM on the Ergodox a week after switching, and his complaints about "the Cherry MX" switches fall a little flat since there's about a dozen different kinds, all with different noise and tactile characteristics.
I just can't fathom all that unused space on my desk (two halves of two keyboards, going totally unused!) when the investment in some natural-feeling typing infrastructure was relatively small given how much pain I've avoided, and will continue to avoid.
I've got a pair of Ergodox Infinity keyboards with good mechanical keys (not clicky) and SA keycaps because I got tired of carrying one back and forth to the office. My RSI is gone and so I feel that the $800 investment is nothing when looking at the ROI of continued use of my hands.
I'm very happy with Cherry MX Brown switches - a good tactile feel with very little noise!
I've been using a Moonlander exclusively on my desktop since November 2020 while having no trouble continuing to use a Macbook Air or my old Acer laptop.
The differently placed modifier keys on the laptops screw me up infinitely more than going from an ortholinear split to a laptop and back.
I can second this - my main driver is a Dactyl-Manuform (ortholinear), and I have zero problems on any of the other four non-ortho keyboards that I use.
I also use Dvorak as my main layout and have no problems when going back to a QWERTY one.
With a programable mechanical kb you should be able to match the Mac layout. There are a few split versions that should have sufficient keys, especially if you're not using a ten-key frequently.
I've also been using a Moonlander since late 2020 and going back to a laptop has been fine. The fact that on my two Lenovo laptops, the Ctrl and Fn keys are not in the same order (whoever thought this was a good idea?) is anecdotally also a much more frequent cause of issues.
In my experience, you learn how to use a regular keyboard. Then you learn to use an ergonomic keyboard. Then you finally also need to learn how to switch back and forth.
Three separate skill sets. But all very learnable.
This resonates with me. I purchased a Moonlander around a month ago. I'm finally starting to reach the typing speed I had on a regular keyboard, but I haven't learned how to switch back to a normal keyboard yet.
That said, I don't really want to use normal keyboards anymore. This feels like how computer keyboards should've been designed from the start.
I've used an ortholinear keyboard as my main keyboard for the last four years (Keyboardio Model 01 and occasionally Atreus as my travel/backup). Using a regular layout keyboard slows me down for a bit, but that often has more to do with the placement of modifier keys, Enter, Backspace, and so on rather than the ortholinear vs skewed layout. Still, I can readjust after an hour or so. Oddly, I find that I have almost no readjustment period when I use the keyboard on a laptop. The catch might be that I've never felt comfortable typing on a laptop keyboard, even before I started using ortholinear layouts. I see people sitting at cafes working on their laptops for hours and I just could never do that and don't really understand how other people can do it without destroying their wrists and necks.
This is a vast underestimation. There are now hundreds of Cherry MX compatible clones, many of which are considered better than Cherry's original designs.
For example, I'm typing on a switch called the Gazzew Boba U4T, which is much more tactile and sharper than anything Cherry has ever made.
There's absolutely zero clinical/valid evidence that Cherry MX switches do a shred of anything for RSI.
It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it.
I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI.
I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote, there's no evidence the mechanical switches are actually worse. But there's no evidence they're better either.
No one knows whether it's hard rebound or key travel or anything that actually causes the issues. And different RSIs are totally different. It's possible Mechanical switches could be better for carpal tunnel but worse for tendinitis or vise versa. But it doesn't seem like it has been studied.
My experience with medical treatment was doctors and PTs don't even know what the different types of keyboard switches are at all. They know about desk positioning and ergonomic shaped keyboards but switch type was not something that they had any advice on.
> I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI.
I just can't bear the thought of using mechanical keyboard where I have to lift my fingers too much to be able to move them and press another key. For me, the less I need to move my fingers up/down, and the less pressure I have to apply, the better - as in, hurts way less
My injury was multi-factor. It started with a cycling injury. Medication taken from the cycling injury was partially a cause of the RSI coming on. It was also just a really stressful time with a lot of work.
But I had been in the field for ~15 years with no significant RSI, and those injuries and RSI weren't too long after I had switched to mechanical keyboards. I struggled for a few years. There's so much momentum behind mechanical switches it was really hard for me to convince myself they could be the problem, but I never got rid of it till I stopped using them.
I do think key travel is part of it. Playing piano is/was 10x worse than computer keyboards, even though nice piano actions have a softer "bounce" than any computer keyboard. The piano keyboard has huge travel. Meanwhile playing guitar the fretboard has absolutely zero give or cushioning, but the finger travel is extremely small, and it's never given me an issue. (I gave up piano to reduce chances of having an RSI again.)
There's no real proof/study of travel vs bounce anyway with respect to fatigue and injury.
The key to Cherry and similar mech switches is that they activate well before they bottom out. With a bit of practice you can type by just lightly floating your fingertips across the keys, seldom getting the impact of hitting the bottom. There's not much travel that way.
My problem was finger joint pain, which was getting bad enough to affect my productivity. This completely fixed it for me. I just had to put up with a few weeks of inaccurate typing while I learned. Sometimes I get complacent and type too much directly on my laptop, and the pain starts coming back, but the mech fixes it every time.
I think that's the main benefit of a mechanical keyboard with hotswap sockets -- you can change out the switches for something better (for you).
There are switches with lighter springs, so you can apply less pressure. And if you forgo the MX style mechanical keys you can get a keyboard with low profile "choc" switches, which have less travel.
I second (or third now) that travel on typical mechanical switches is anecdotally sub-optimal for my RSI. Membrane dome switches with a lot of travel are worse, but membrane dome switches with almost no travel seem to be better.
Ironically the worse keyboard I've used for it also happened to be an "ergonomic" keyboard (from the 90s, or maybe early 2000s) with keys tilted outwards. I think partially because of the positioning, and partially because it had membrane switches with a lot of travel.
Try a short-travel or low profile mech switch. I believe both Cherry and Kailh have a Speed series with a short activation distance. The Kailh Choc line of low-profile switches has something like a 1-2mm travel which might work too.
This subthread highlights one of the things that seems true about RSI: what works for you may not work for me.
I find that having longer key travel works better for me - typing on laptop boards or those shallow Mac keyboards tears up my forearms. I use Cherry switches without the tactile bump and they work great for me.
One benefit with mechanical keys though is that there's a massive variety of types, so you can easily find something that works for you. You can get short-travel (i.e. Kailh speed series), soft bottom-outs via something like the Boba series or by using o-rings, high resistance or low resistance with varying spring weights, tactile vs clicky vs linear for feedback.
With a membrane keyboard you have zero choice beyond moving from one brand/model of keyboard to another, but with a hot-swappable keyboard you can try multiple switches until you find one that suits you and doesn't aggravate any existing RSI or trigger new forms of RSI.
I'm not sure if I'd consider it all hype, at least not when talking about the force required to press down a key. When using regular 55g switches (brown, red, or something else), my fingers get tired rather quickly. But when using 35g red switches, I can go all day without any problems (finger wise at least). I've tried lighter (20g), but I ended up accidentally pressing keys too often.
I will say this: clicky switches serve no practical purpose. The same goes for tactile switches, _especially_ when using light springs as you'll bottom out most of the time. Whether you buy Cherry switches, Kailh or something else doesn't really matter either ergonomics wise.
I had the same experience with ultra-light switches, I couldn't use anything heavier than reds. Then I tried very smooth lubed linears (Alpaca v2, which are 62g), and they were totally fine.
I am not sure if they helped ergonomically but I found I was accidentally pressing keys far less.
It took me 16 hours of targeted practice on monkeytype and keybr.io to reach ~50 wpm on my first split keyboard, including a new keyboard layout. The second time I changed layout it was even faster.
There is some effort here, but in the context of an entire programming career it barely even registers.
Either this person has incredibly broad shoulders or they have their arms splayed out or something. I can't imagine the 20 inches of separation available on the Kinesis Freestyle is "Not far enough apart" to "keep the shoulders in a natural, pulled-back position" for all but the most extreme outliers. I have a Kinesis keyboard and the only possible complaint I have is no numpad.
If you were working with a PT they want you sitting so far upright with your shoulders pulled so far back you might not be able to even reach the keyboard.
We're all so used to the slouch it's hard to grasp.
I can't sit back in my chair at all and both keep my shoulders back AND reach the keyboard.
That is an issue of depth. I was questioning the author's problem with width. The results on Google say the average shoulder with on a man is 16 inches. The Kinesis Freestyle maxes out at 20 inches of separation. That should be plenty for most people.
Personally, I'm using a Dygma Raise, after testing the Ergodox for a while. And the Dygma is really mostly perfect IMHO. I would prefer it to have an ortholinear layout, and an additional row with F-Keys (layers can be cumbersome when hands are not at homerow-position). But the build-quality and sane Thumb-cluster really makes it for me.
Though the argument about loudness of mechanical keys is understandable. But this can be solved with a proper audio-setup. Just look at all the streamers with their silent gaming-keyboards.
After some custom wooden cases for my ergodox, I'm really excited about the keyboardio model 100 https://keyboard.io/ basically an ergodox with style, and what seems a bit more ergonomy. I laughed a lot with the video for their last crowdfunding campaign, chicken jokes included :D
Without reading the article I thought that's what they meant.
For me the biggest QoL improvement has been switching to a split ortho keeb (https://github.com/foostan/crkbd). They are super cheap to build (corne is 42 switches which are the most expensive component of a keeb) and once you get the hang of it they are superior to any other typing experience.
Learning how to use a 40% had a steep learning curve, but after a few weeks I was very productive and now I don't even think about the layers.
Since corne is so easy to build it's a great introduction into building your own keyboards. I just recently purchased the components from keyhive and I think I only spent $110 -- if that? That might sound expensive for a keyboard you have to build yourself but the prices for custom built keyboards can get insane (in the thousands)
Absolutely love my Dygma Raise. Link for anyone interested: https://dygma.com/
My only gripe with it is that I wish the wrist pads were detachable - not because of the quality (which is good), but because I use a keyboard tray and they're a little bit too big for the amount of space I have. Also agree that an F-row would be nice, though I've gotten used to layer shifting for extra keys. I even have a layer that puts the letters on the right side of the keyboard onto the left side, so when I need to click around a lot while typing I can type using my left hand only and leave my right hand on my mouse.
The thumb cluster is perfect and the software does everything I need it to do. Customer support is great. And with their silent linear switch option (Kailh Silent Pinks), typing is very quiet and suitable for even an open office. No problems typing at full speed on it either since it's not an ortholinear layout, I was hitting my usual WPM (~135) the day I got it.
I think that this is meant as a "hack" - if you have two keyboards lying around and don't want to (or can't) purchase a new one. If you can, then yes, getting an actual split keyboard is far better.
However, the Dygma Raise has neither ortholinearity, nor concavity, nor a good thumb cluster (it's flat, not tilted to fit the actual strong muscle movement of your thumbs) - all of which improve ergonomics. See the Dactyl-Manuform for a build that has all of these three things.
Sure did. Just take a look at https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ or similar. There's a cable that separates the two keyboards and they can go further apart than the picture in the article. Or just replace the cable with a longer one.
There are two types of split keyboard. The first one is one solid body, with divided key segments. The second one are two separated body's, each with their own key-segment. With the second type, the bodies are connected with removable cables, which normally use standard-connections (usb or trrs usually). So they can easily be replaced for longer cables.
I have no idea about these custom keyboards, and now I am paralyzed through choices when going to the github link. What would be a good first split keyboard to try out?
An extra benefit of doing this is that both hands still have access to the full key set. It would be useful to re-assign the extra keys to other functions, but this seems non-trivial to do cross platform in software. Would be a nice project to make a little hardware box to combine two keyboards into one, with a little OLED screen for setting shortcuts.
...just get a split keyboard (the Kinesis isn't a true split - still one body). It's cheaper. You don't have extraneous keys. You don't have to worry about using software to get your computer to play nice with two keyboards. I like the offerings from https://gboards.ca, personally (bonus, they're ortholinear if you believe that is good for reducing pain).
I got the Gergoplex from that site, and over the course of a week of typing I got used to it and was able to be productive with it.
As people mentioned elsewhere in this thread, kinesis does have split keyboards (the freestyle / edge line). And you can choose your switch type in case you want a quiet keyboard.
If you've always wanted to get one of those fancy custom split keyboards (corne, iris, etc), I highly recommend https://keebmaker.com/. For a small price premium, you basically pick out the keyboard you want, and they'll build it for you (so you don't have to mess with soldering, etc).
I had keebmaker build me an iris some time ago, I second this recommendation, excellent service.
(I regret not picking a keyboard with hotswap sockets, I'd like to experiment with different switches but this iris will have brown chocs soldered onto it forever :)
There is a lot of hype on this thread about the Moonlander keyboard.
The hype is real.
The author has a neat hack, but seriously, just get yourself a split keyboard that supports the QMK firmware, customize the crap out of it, and your hands will thank you forever.
That is somewhat of a good point about testing, but I’m not 100% convinced. The PCB itself should have already been tested at the factory, which should be sufficient for someone like me who’s ordering it without switches.
The purpose of testing the switches how they’re doing it is to ensure that the pins weren’t bent upon insertion and the switches themselves. Neither of those things apply in my case. Other companies sell plenty of DIY hot swap board kits without switches pre installed, so they must have a reliable and cheap way of testing the hot swap sockets themselves (something the PCB factory may or may not do, not sure).
I wish someone would make a wireless split keyboard. I have the ergodox but I ended up replacing it with the logitech mx keys because I was sick of having cables all over my desk and having to unplug the thing every time I switch between my desktop and laptop.
You can definitely build your own. I think one hurdle is that the ZMK firmware (like QMK, but supports Bluetooth) is a little immature. (I could be very wrong.)
I’ve seen plenty in r/ergomechkeyboards. If someone made a wireless Moonlander, insta-buy from me!
Interesting product. Little bit ugly but it does seem to be what I wanted. I actually had a usb switch setup going on but the problem was I had cables everywhere and still had to plug everything in to the laptop. Now I just plug in power and video and the rest is just wireless.
I think this is actually going to be a game changer for me. I got a keychron k6 and it's almost perfect (I only don't like having to press a function key to type a backtick).
Plus it was CHEAP for a mechanical keyboard. I can easily purchase a second one. And it's clear from just spreading my shoulders that this will have a big impact on my shoulder pain.
There are probably multiple different causes for RSI in programmers, but for me, a regular keyboard is fine. Even my slouch is fine. I type with my elbows on the table and it's fine.
It's the mouse that killed me. A handful of years after graduating from college, I thought my programming career was over because the pain in my neck and shoulders was so bad I couldn't type. I went to a bunch of doctors, neurologists, physiotherapy, etc but nothing helped, not even medication.
It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit. I changed my entire set up so that my mouse is away from my keyboard when I type, and when I need to use the mouse, I push my keyboard away and have the mouse on the table in the center of my body, with my wrist slightly twisted so that it mimics writing with a pencil. That's also why Macbooks and similar laptops are fine with my because it's in the middle.
Once I switched to this technique, my carpal tunnel went away. It's been over 25 years now with no pain. Like I said, different people probably have different causes of carpal tunnel, but for me this was the precise reason.
I loved the kensington expert mouse for that (the old one that was exactly same as a poolball) since it had wonderful heft and could do both palm spins and precision one hand.
But, they stopped producing that particular kind (they were also hard to maintain using a special key to open the case) so I just switched to using my left hand for the mouse on half my computers and right hand on the other half. That was easier than moving equipment around from machine to machine for me and coworkers/family. No RSI since.
Congrats on finding and resolving your carpal tunnel problem. I switched to a basic wireless trackball[1] about 5 years into my career (10 years in industry) which has kept me mostly pain free since I can avoid moving my wrist.
Still might need to look for a better keyboard and a slightly better trackball, but for anyone reading this with minor pain: don't ignore it. Try new things early and try to reduce your pain, even minor twinges as much as possible early, since, well, I expect to be in this game for the long haul.
Been using M570 too for some time. However recently I've read that some research suggests that thumb-operated trackballs might do bad things to your thumb and that finger-operated trackballs (like Kensington Expert) are less risky. Worth keeping in mind and digging deeper. (Don't have K.E. but planning to try it out)
> Thumb-operated trackballs don’t work for everyone. “Overuse of the thumb can result in de Quervain’s tenosynovitis, where extending the thumb becomes a painful movement,
Thanks, good luck to you on finding a completely pain-free solution!
This is the late 90s, so neurologists and other doctors weren't very useful at all. One even suggested surgery to correct my problem which got me really scared I might be out of the profession and wondering what I could do.
What I found out was that there's a nerve that runs all the way down your arm into your hand/wrist, and when I twisted my right hand outward to use the mouse, it was pinching this nerve constantly. But instead of having pain in my wrist or forearms, it was causing pain in my neck and shoulders. This is a well-known phenomenon called "referred pain" where the body might not have the proper pain receptors to show pain in one area, so it sends the pain signals elsewhere.
I started to wonder why I could write notes with a pen for hours and hours throughout college and never had any issues, but a couple of years out of college, I had such debilitating pain that I almost had to quit. So I bought a mouse that had the form factor of a pen and tried to recreate my experience writing by moving my keyboard away and using the pen mouse the way I would when I write with a pen. It was a very primitive mouse with a roller ball the size of a marble at the tip, but it completely worked. After the pen mouse died in 9 months, I tried to recreate my wrist angle in a similar way as the pen mouse with a normal mouse and it worked as well. As I said, I've adopted this convention and people comment on how weirdly I hold the mouse, but I've been pain free ever since.
I'm not endorsing the one above, just showing what it looks like. The one I had from the late 90s was wired, with a big roller at the tip instead of it being optical.
The main thing is that when you hold a pen, your hand is more up and down rather than flat to the surface of the table, like when you're holding a mouse. Having it up and down is a more natural position for the hand relative to your body and doesn't force it to be twisted away from the body so that I could hold the mouse. That twist was was pinched my nerve for me.
Man I love it, and my battery lasts weeks! Sorry to hear yours doesn’t. And yeah, I wish it had Linux drivers. I thought I found some software somewhere that allowed this (I don’t really use Linux as a desktop, just terminals). Maybe I’ll try and find it and put a link here.
Yeah, mine lasts 4-6 weeks, but with the Logitech M570 trackball I was getting 6-12 months off of a single AA battery.
The M570 also has a red led that lights up when you need to replace the battery. The ergo doesn't have any such led, so the only sign that you need to recharge it is when it dies.
There are some "drivers" for it but I haven't had much luck with them. What I did find was someone had some scripts I was able to use to get things usable on a 4k monitor: https://gitlab.com/khaytsus/mxergo
My issue is that I use a scaled 4k monitor, and in order to get the mouse to move at a reasonable speed I had to put some xinput commands into my autostart script. It feels hacky, and just wish it had proper support.
I use two 4K monitors. Haven't really had an issue with movement speed. I can pretty easily send the pointer from one side all the way too the other with one flick of my thumb. I use sway/wayland though, so maybe it's different from X11 on that. I also mostly use the keyboard for desktop navigation, coding, etc. The mouse is almost entirely for clicking on things within a browser window and the occasional Steam game.
Same for me, hence years ago I started using two mice.
It took a few weeks to operate the mouse well with left hand, but now I'm fairly ok with left handed usage. Still using right hand mouse for high precision gestures and when I need left hand on keyboard (when using Tab). Unfortunately the choice for left handed mice is very low and they're expensive;I use a symmetrical Kensington trackball with the left hand.
Something that helped me was setting my mouse to a lower DPI and using my elbow and shoulder for movement. A very high DPI encourages tiny movements with the wrist.
This is also a general recommendation for gamers looking to improve their accuracy with FPS style games. Low DPI, larger arm movements provides higher accuracy.
I'm the same. Never had an issue with keyboard usage, but started to run into trouble with the mouse usage. I used a wacom tablet as my daily driver for a while but it was a bit too inconvenient. I've found actually that just alternating between a trackpad (left hand) and a mouse (right hand) throughout the day has solved the problem.
It was the mouse for me as well. It started to cause sharp pain on the underside of my right elbow. The problem seemed to be the numeric pad on the right side of the keyboard, which pushes the mouse slightly further away from my body, stretching my arm slightly further out.
The solution was to switch my mouse to the left side, where it could be slightly closer to my body. It took a few months of getting used to, but after 10-20 years (can't remember), I've never had pain on my left arm. I have tried going back to right side a few times, just out of curiosity, and the pain on the right arm will come back after a few months.
While I have not used the Slimblade, I did consider it when I last shopped for trackballs and settled for the Orbit instead, which I've owned before and can use for hours at a stretch without issue. I believe the angles of the palm rest are substantially different between the two models and there have been complaints of worse ergonomic properties with the Slimblade, which was enough to dissuade me. It's something that could be adjusted with foam and cardboard(and given a nicer texture with vinyl tape) if you're willing to experiment.
I would also review desk/chair height and other major elements of the setup too. Pain in the extremities can have causation near the hips, back or shoulders so increasingly I favor looking for holistic solutions. Lately I have been doing animal crawl exercises(bear, lizard, crab) and have found that they clear up a lot of minor aches-and-pains issues, so that might be another thing to try.
I had a similar issue, wore a wrist brace for years - my solution was to switch to a laptop with a trackpad - the continual moving my hand to the right to a mouse or trackball was what was doing it - I haven't owned a desktop machine for over 20 years now
I would like a ThinkPad shaped keyboard with mousepad and trackpoint included (the mousepad below the spacebar and mouse button both above and below it)
almost every mouse/keyboard combo has the mousepad on the side which I dislike
I had the same issue and same realization. That's why I always use keyboards without the numpad; that extra 4 inches of space for the mouse relieved most of my computer posture pains.
> It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit.
This has been my experience too. I used to have a TKL keyboard, thought I needed a numpad even though the only times I would've had use for it have been Blender and a GTA V plane flying mission.
Now I've gone down the rabbit hole of split keyboards and ergonomic mice when all I really need is a TKL keyboard. ZSA Moonlander is dope, but it doesn't help the mouse situation.
These split and ortholinear keyboards all seem to be compensating for the fact that we are taught to type keys on the left hand bottom row with the wrong finger.
The "Q-A-Z" slope goes completely against the natural angle of your left finger curl. Same for every finger on your left hand.
The right hand gets things right with "U-J-M" etc. Nice finger curl with your hand in a natural position.
On normal keyboards we should be teaching and typing the "W-S-Z" (or even "E-S-Z") column with your left ring finger, not the completely perpendicular "W-S-X".
Op here, I totally agree we need to re-think keyboard ergonomics! Millions of people have pain from the design of these things. I am so happy the article sparked a little conversation.
If you can afford it, a split like the ergodox or moonlander (my personal choice) is the correct answer here. I type 8+ hours a day and have zero pain. I also switched to dvorak a few years back, and consider that to help as well.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 272 ms ] threadI had dual MS Sculpt keyboards for a while, & loved the curve. It's easier to spread the keyboards out far wider than with the pretty short cable Kinesis keyboards usually come with (some keyboards have an XL option). Also Kinesis seems allergic to build a regular-plain-old function-key row, and it seriously hampers usability, even after years of use on this keyboard.
The best part is definitely being in an office, and people thinking I was working on multiple things at once.
That being said, the keyboard is hardly perfect.
This is a really cool hack, and I’m happy that the author found a solution for their pain that works for them, but this bit confused me.
Kinesis are keyboards with separated key clusters, but not split keyboards. When one says split keyboard I think they are normally talking about things like the Ergodox EZ/Moonlander which have two physically separate bodies, one for each hand. There are many different models of these with various shapes and sizes, and you can separate them as much as you like. The normal advice is to set them up around shoulder width apart so you aren’t rounding your back to bring your arms together.
Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick)
I have been using a Moonlander for a couple of years now, and an EZ before that. They are expensive at around $400 but I don’t think I can ever go back. Most of these split keyboards also run QMK so you can setup binds, layers, and generally configure them however you like.
https://www.r-go-tools.com/products/ergonomic-keyboards/r-go...
Kinesis has also their freestyle-line, which are physically splitted keyboard. But traditionally, the name refers to the split of the key-segments, not the whole keyboard. Until a decade ago, there barely where any real split keyboards, and split segments was the mainstream.
> Most of these kinds of keyboards also support whatever key switches you prefer, and there are plenty of options that are sufficiently quiet for zoom (pretty much anything linear should do the trick)
But even the most silent switch can't compete with the absorption of a normal rubberdome. Stiff matter hitting stiff matter always produces some noise, and most people don't know how to use mechanical keyboards correctly to reduce this.
But nothing is going to quiet the sound of switches designed to give audio feedback, such as the Cherry Blues. I do not recommend those for use in an office or even at home with other people at home.
Do people really get that upset about a keyboard that clicks a bit?
Back when I was in open offices the annoyances were people yelling to each other with me in between, people singing, private phone calls etc. A click wouldn't even have registered.
> Do people really get that upset about a keyboard that clicks a bit? [...] A click wouldn't even have registered.
Am I the only one who still remembers when typing, even in offices or at home, meant sharp hitting noises with a DING at the end of each line?
There is a difference between someone pressing a button now and then, and a person that actually writes 8-10 cps. You don't give them an audio feedback keyboard or you will go deaf.
A good desk mat helps too.
https://keyboard.university/200-courses/keyboard-mounting-st...
https://www.sweetwater.com/c592--Semi_hollowbody_Guitars
Indeed, I saw the title of this post and I wondered if the poster was looking for a setup similar to the Freestyle... and it turns out they were!
I made the switch a couple of years ago from a standard layout mechanical to the "Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB" (nominally a gaming keyboard, but I don't use the gaming features) and would not go back. This device can't achieve quite as much separation as the "dual keyboard" approach in this blog entry, but it's not too far off.
As for the switches, in addition to the mechanical version with its various switch options, they also make a rubber dome variant of this keyboard, which happens to be cheaper.
Nothing is 'split' in the latter though? I've never thought 'split keyboard' a misnomer in referring to two pieces that look like a keyboard sawn (often carefully around staggered keycaps) in half, i.e. split?
Split keyboards are usually 2 separate keyboards with half the key each.
Yeah I gave up and learned to love that there’s a big gaming market for the keyboard I want, even though I don’t want the flashy backlight colors. It’s weird but now I mostly shop for gaming keyboards and then filter out where I can’t turn off the gaming-specific stuff.
I always thought full size keyboards should split the alpha keys and put the numpad in the middle. That would drastically improve ergonomics.
Split design is definitely a win, but I needed some time to get used to it. After about a month keyboard started to feel natural. To be honest I would like to see a medical research on using various keyboard types. Personally I don't feel much difference compared to typing on macbook. Most problems that I had with my wrists where always connected to using mouse.
Lower quality keycaps at the Kinesis price range being be main gripe on the Freestyle Pro.
I mostly agree. That said, my Keychron K1 (red switches, v3 so this may be out of date) is not noticeably louder to my very noise sensitive ears than a similar Apple low profile keyboard. It’s the first mechanical keyboard I’ve owned that hasn’t drawn laughs or ire in remote meetings.
I suspect the quietness is because the low profile keys bottom out inside the case rather than keycaps hitting the casing. There’s still the sound of the switch, but even if I were a better typist with more sensitive reflexes I’d hear that.
I’ve tried a lot of other “quiet” mechanical keyboards. The Matias one was softer at the expense of having a more rubber dome feel while typing (and like every Matias I’ve owned the switches went glitchy and eventually failed). The other “for the office” (brand I can’t recall) red switch keyboard I had… well, I think it was as annoying to me as everyone else.
And, not trying to shill the product (and again I have no idea if v4 has regressed), but I also have a very noise sensitive puppy who hops up and gets distracty if I so much as bump anything on my desk. She’s just as calm with the K1 as my MBP’s built in keyboard.
The switches might not be to everyone’s liking. But there’s definitely room for mechanical keyboards to be less loud than they are even used less effectively than intended (i.e. me).
I join the keyboard and the trackpad together with a double sided tape[1] with a metal scale to the bottom for added rigidity and now I can use both of them at a preferred angle. I no longer have wrist fatigue as I can rest them on a flat surface while both typing and tracking.
[1] https://abishekmuthian.com/accessibility-hack-for-keyboard-a...
https://c9ergo.com/
I am loving the split, angled setup with my preferred Cherry MX Blues.
How long do these last?
Edit: "Ergonomic keyboard" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomic_keyboard > #Split_keyboard:
> Split keyboards group keys into two or more sections. Ergonomic split keyboards can be fixed, where you cannot change the positions of the sections, or adjustable. Split keyboards typically change the angle of each section, and the distance between them. On an adjustable split keyboard, this can be tailored exactly to the user. People with a broad chest will benefit from an adjustable split keyboard's ability to customize the distance between the two halves of the board. This ensures the elbows are not too close together when typing. [2]
It took about a month or two to adapt IIRC. I would suggest to remap and reconfigure some keys/layout after observing your actual usage. Also change a few uncomfortable application key combos and relearn, especially if you're not using a US layout.
Reprogramming (swapping) keys is easy, but I admit it was a big hassle to also keep a custom layout synced/working between Windows and Linux over the years. But it's great once it's done.
By now I'm owning three kinesis advantage, one at the office, one at home, and one to make sure I never have to type on a flat keyboard ever again if anything breaks. I get RSI just from looking at those.
I also tried a fully split (freestyle2) keyboard, but it didn't work for me. I think it was the lack of the bowl shape.
But they also have more conventional split keyboards (though you can also buy a 90 degree tenting kit to make them weirder again)
The Kinesis Freestyle is split into two halves and unlike the Ergodex or similar it's just a standard keyboard layout which makes jumping back and forth between other computers less of a hassle.
Only complaint is that the macro buttons off to the side just emit standard key presses (eg Cut sends Control+x), which I guess means I should look into the Freestyle Pro which _is_ programmable :)
I think it is a better choice than the pro, as it costs the same once you purchase the wrist rests (which the pro comes with).
You can re-macro every key on the board, and the macro stays with the board if you move it to a new computer.
The Edge has everything that was missing from the Pro. It truly is the perfect keyboard, in my opinion: split, backlit, mech switches, fully (and easily) programmable, multiple layouts, internal memory, extra macro keys. What more could one ask from a keyboard...? The only shortcoming is that the keycap profile is custom, so it's hard to pimp if you are into color schemes, but that's it. I don't understand why they chose to market it to gamers, when it's the perfect hacker's tool, but I guess them kids are more willing to splash the cash these days.
After dropping coffee on it for the N-th time, I left it outside to dry. I didn't notice that the location I placed it had direct sunlight - plus, it was during the summer.
One of the spacebar keycaps warped to the point of being unusable. I tried several options (including attempting to 3d print a replacement). Was almost giving up, emailed support.
They sent a replacement keycap, for free. For the Freestyle Edge - the one with the blue backlight, that's discontinued.
I'd say the major drawback that it has is the "gaming" name, which makes it awkward to get your company to expense :)
I'll add another drawback: the switches are not removable either. So if you wanted to replace your switches with different ones (for instance, WASD), you really can't (practically).
I'm likely going to replace it with something with better designed thumb clusters when I can (probably a Kyria or maybe a Corne variant).
The big reason I wanted to try it is the thumb layout is more ergonomic and conducive to chording. On the right thumb cluster I map the four keys to 15 bit encoded layer. I don't _use_ all that space, but I have over a thousand keypoints at my disposal.
But I do use the bottom 3 (plus base) quite heavily. It's more ergonomic to move frequent keys to near home rows in a higher space.
Almost $400 for a board that is so poorly designed you have to choose between a usable thumb cluster position or a comfortable tenting angle, because the thumb cluster is used as one of the tenting legs. So unless you have giant hands, it's just a very poor experience compared to some other boards I've tried. For far, far less.
And to fix this, instead of revising the Moonlander, ZSA is happy to sell you an $80 tripod kit, tripods not included.
You can get the benefits of a split board for a _fraction_ of the price by getting something like a Lily58 or a Corne, which have far saner thumb cluster designs, and have plenty of solutions for tenting. And if you're like the author of the linked article who can't handle high travel keys, both of those boards are available with low profile mechanical Choc switches.
Personally, I find the thumb clusters most comfortable in a position that also gives a good tenting angle, but I think criticizing coupling the two is fair.
That said, I'm not sure how the tripod kit would help you solve that one way or the other. I thought it was designed to go on the outside, not where the thumb clusters are.
There should also be a variety of 3d printed solutions too, I've seen tenting feet you can screw on to the bottom and cases that let you use large screws on the outside to create tenting legs
ZSA does sell a tenting leg kit that I believe should allow you to swap the thumb cluster screw for a leg, but I haven't tried it myself. It's only $24. Additionally, they have a 3d-printable file for a tenting leg that should work as well, if you happen to have a printer.
The Dactyl Manuform and Ergodox are also decent options for anyone looking for something like the ZSA Moonlander but don't want to deal with the Moonlander's issues. The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.
>The Lily58 and Corne have far too few keys for my liking, but to each there own.
For what it's worth, I used to think the same thing, and now I happily do all my daily programming work on a Reviung41, which has even less keys than the Corne.
I'll probably get to a smaller key count eventually. I'm almost finished adjusting to the Moonlander now, and it took me almost two months to get used to the loss of the separate F1-11 keys. They're now on the number row in a new layer, so I figure with enough time I'll get used to that and can toss more into other layers, but that's proving to be a slower process for me. I think I've had this board for almost 8 months now (had to look up my shipping info, as I thought it had been much less).
I really do love the fact that the mech keyboard community has spawned so many great keyboards, as it makes it so easy to find something that fits you best, and makes it so easy to customize.
The little ortho-linear keyboards that are popular now make me cringe, they look worse than laptop keyboards.
I was toying with the idea of picking up the moonlander, but it looks kind of big. The wrist rests seem ridiculously large. Can you use the tenting feature without them?
However large it may seem, the size seems good to me. I only actively use (i.e. place my hand on) maybe 2/3 of it, but the remainder makes it so that the angle is more comfortable than I imagine it would be if it were shorter.
It's worth mentioning I have relatively large hands. If you don't, you might need a fair bit less space.
[1] https://docs.splitkb.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010627159-Can-...
I have made my own keyboards before, hand-wired with 3D printed cases, and it's probably 20-40 hours of work; significantly more than the $400 that ZSA charges.
I agree that they messed up the thumb clusters. I used to use an Ergodox and that had a pretty goofy arrangement, and the Moonlander doesn't really improve on it.
Normal keyboard layout, just split. Connected by a coiled USBC to USBC cable that you could replace with a longer cable.
I use the Mistel which fine for me. The layout never bothered me, just the distance between the halves and the lack of tenting.
They are also programmable which is useful when you can’t use software to remap your keys.
layout slightly awkward. escape key is off in the wilderness, keep hitting F1 by accident. Wouldn't mind Y and B keys duplicated so I can hit them with either hand.
They're also all (?) mechanical keyboards, which provide a much better typing experience than any Apple keyboard.
And that's without the auxiliary benefits like freeing up additional desk space, a longer lifespan, and ease of repair.
Straight columns are superior. Think about it, look at your right hand and how the columns aligns with the keys underneath it. Pretty good huh? Now look at your left and you will probably struggle to explain how anyone could ever justify it, it is absolutely horrendous.
I just can't fathom all that unused space on my desk (two halves of two keyboards, going totally unused!) when the investment in some natural-feeling typing infrastructure was relatively small given how much pain I've avoided, and will continue to avoid.
Edit: clearer word order
I'm very happy with Cherry MX Brown switches - a good tactile feel with very little noise!
The differently placed modifier keys on the laptops screw me up infinitely more than going from an ortholinear split to a laptop and back.
I also use Dvorak as my main layout and have no problems when going back to a QWERTY one.
Three separate skill sets. But all very learnable.
That said, I don't really want to use normal keyboards anymore. This feels like how computer keyboards should've been designed from the start.
This is a vast underestimation. There are now hundreds of Cherry MX compatible clones, many of which are considered better than Cherry's original designs.
For example, I'm typing on a switch called the Gazzew Boba U4T, which is much more tactile and sharper than anything Cherry has ever made.
https://twitter.com/GoatTheremin/status/1414247177203900418
It's all hype. There's nothing medical behind any of it.
I find the extra key travel of those switches fatigues my fingers/arms far more and makes me feel far more like I'm going to have RSI.
I did have full blown RSI, and ditching mechanical keyboards was a key part of getting past it. Now that's just my anecdote, there's no evidence the mechanical switches are actually worse. But there's no evidence they're better either.
No one knows whether it's hard rebound or key travel or anything that actually causes the issues. And different RSIs are totally different. It's possible Mechanical switches could be better for carpal tunnel but worse for tendinitis or vise versa. But it doesn't seem like it has been studied.
My experience with medical treatment was doctors and PTs don't even know what the different types of keyboard switches are at all. They know about desk positioning and ergonomic shaped keyboards but switch type was not something that they had any advice on.
I just can't bear the thought of using mechanical keyboard where I have to lift my fingers too much to be able to move them and press another key. For me, the less I need to move my fingers up/down, and the less pressure I have to apply, the better - as in, hurts way less
But I had been in the field for ~15 years with no significant RSI, and those injuries and RSI weren't too long after I had switched to mechanical keyboards. I struggled for a few years. There's so much momentum behind mechanical switches it was really hard for me to convince myself they could be the problem, but I never got rid of it till I stopped using them.
I do think key travel is part of it. Playing piano is/was 10x worse than computer keyboards, even though nice piano actions have a softer "bounce" than any computer keyboard. The piano keyboard has huge travel. Meanwhile playing guitar the fretboard has absolutely zero give or cushioning, but the finger travel is extremely small, and it's never given me an issue. (I gave up piano to reduce chances of having an RSI again.)
There's no real proof/study of travel vs bounce anyway with respect to fatigue and injury.
My problem was finger joint pain, which was getting bad enough to affect my productivity. This completely fixed it for me. I just had to put up with a few weeks of inaccurate typing while I learned. Sometimes I get complacent and type too much directly on my laptop, and the pain starts coming back, but the mech fixes it every time.
There are switches with lighter springs, so you can apply less pressure. And if you forgo the MX style mechanical keys you can get a keyboard with low profile "choc" switches, which have less travel.
(for example purpz are low profile with a very light actuation force: https://boardsource.xyz/store/5fff705f03db380da20f1014 -- I have no experience with them yet, as my choc keyboard isn't hotswap)
Ironically the worse keyboard I've used for it also happened to be an "ergonomic" keyboard (from the 90s, or maybe early 2000s) with keys tilted outwards. I think partially because of the positioning, and partially because it had membrane switches with a lot of travel.
Just ordered a split keyboard (kinesis freestyle edge) with MX speed silver (1.2mm travel) switches. Will see how it goes this time.
With a membrane keyboard you have zero choice beyond moving from one brand/model of keyboard to another, but with a hot-swappable keyboard you can try multiple switches until you find one that suits you and doesn't aggravate any existing RSI or trigger new forms of RSI.
I will say this: clicky switches serve no practical purpose. The same goes for tactile switches, _especially_ when using light springs as you'll bottom out most of the time. Whether you buy Cherry switches, Kailh or something else doesn't really matter either ergonomics wise.
I am not sure if they helped ergonomically but I found I was accidentally pressing keys far less.
There is some effort here, but in the context of an entire programming career it barely even registers.
We're all so used to the slouch it's hard to grasp.
I can't sit back in my chair at all and both keep my shoulders back AND reach the keyboard.
Personally, I'm using a Dygma Raise, after testing the Ergodox for a while. And the Dygma is really mostly perfect IMHO. I would prefer it to have an ortholinear layout, and an additional row with F-Keys (layers can be cumbersome when hands are not at homerow-position). But the build-quality and sane Thumb-cluster really makes it for me.
Though the argument about loudness of mechanical keys is understandable. But this can be solved with a proper audio-setup. Just look at all the streamers with their silent gaming-keyboards.
For me the biggest QoL improvement has been switching to a split ortho keeb (https://github.com/foostan/crkbd). They are super cheap to build (corne is 42 switches which are the most expensive component of a keeb) and once you get the hang of it they are superior to any other typing experience.
Learning how to use a 40% had a steep learning curve, but after a few weeks I was very productive and now I don't even think about the layers.
Since corne is so easy to build it's a great introduction into building your own keyboards. I just recently purchased the components from keyhive and I think I only spent $110 -- if that? That might sound expensive for a keyboard you have to build yourself but the prices for custom built keyboards can get insane (in the thousands)
My only gripe with it is that I wish the wrist pads were detachable - not because of the quality (which is good), but because I use a keyboard tray and they're a little bit too big for the amount of space I have. Also agree that an F-row would be nice, though I've gotten used to layer shifting for extra keys. I even have a layer that puts the letters on the right side of the keyboard onto the left side, so when I need to click around a lot while typing I can type using my left hand only and leave my right hand on my mouse.
The thumb cluster is perfect and the software does everything I need it to do. Customer support is great. And with their silent linear switch option (Kailh Silent Pinks), typing is very quiet and suitable for even an open office. No problems typing at full speed on it either since it's not an ortholinear layout, I was hitting my usual WPM (~135) the day I got it.
However, the Dygma Raise has neither ortholinearity, nor concavity, nor a good thumb cluster (it's flat, not tilted to fit the actual strong muscle movement of your thumbs) - all of which improve ergonomics. See the Dactyl-Manuform for a build that has all of these three things.
> Not far enough apart.
I got the Gergoplex from that site, and over the course of a week of typing I got used to it and was able to be productive with it.
Just get a split.
If you've always wanted to get one of those fancy custom split keyboards (corne, iris, etc), I highly recommend https://keebmaker.com/. For a small price premium, you basically pick out the keyboard you want, and they'll build it for you (so you don't have to mess with soldering, etc).
(I regret not picking a keyboard with hotswap sockets, I'd like to experiment with different switches but this iris will have brown chocs soldered onto it forever :)
The hype is real.
The author has a neat hack, but seriously, just get yourself a split keyboard that supports the QMK firmware, customize the crap out of it, and your hands will thank you forever.
That being said, their support and product are absolutely excellent—might be worth it anyway
The purpose of testing the switches how they’re doing it is to ensure that the pins weren’t bent upon insertion and the switches themselves. Neither of those things apply in my case. Other companies sell plenty of DIY hot swap board kits without switches pre installed, so they must have a reliable and cheap way of testing the hot swap sockets themselves (something the PCB factory may or may not do, not sure).
I’ve seen plenty in r/ergomechkeyboards. If someone made a wireless Moonlander, insta-buy from me!
You mean like the Freestyle Blue?
https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-blue-pc/
You can also get USB switch. They won't solve the cable issue, but you won't have to keep plugging/unplugging stuff.
Plus it was CHEAP for a mechanical keyboard. I can easily purchase a second one. And it's clear from just spreading my shoulders that this will have a big impact on my shoulder pain.
Thanks for sharing!
It's the mouse that killed me. A handful of years after graduating from college, I thought my programming career was over because the pain in my neck and shoulders was so bad I couldn't type. I went to a bunch of doctors, neurologists, physiotherapy, etc but nothing helped, not even medication.
It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit. I changed my entire set up so that my mouse is away from my keyboard when I type, and when I need to use the mouse, I push my keyboard away and have the mouse on the table in the center of my body, with my wrist slightly twisted so that it mimics writing with a pencil. That's also why Macbooks and similar laptops are fine with my because it's in the middle.
Once I switched to this technique, my carpal tunnel went away. It's been over 25 years now with no pain. Like I said, different people probably have different causes of carpal tunnel, but for me this was the precise reason.
But, they stopped producing that particular kind (they were also hard to maintain using a special key to open the case) so I just switched to using my left hand for the mouse on half my computers and right hand on the other half. That was easier than moving equipment around from machine to machine for me and coworkers/family. No RSI since.
Still might need to look for a better keyboard and a slightly better trackball, but for anyone reading this with minor pain: don't ignore it. Try new things early and try to reduce your pain, even minor twinges as much as possible early, since, well, I expect to be in this game for the long haul.
[1] Logitech M570
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-trackballs/a... > "Should you switch to a trackball?"
This is the late 90s, so neurologists and other doctors weren't very useful at all. One even suggested surgery to correct my problem which got me really scared I might be out of the profession and wondering what I could do.
What I found out was that there's a nerve that runs all the way down your arm into your hand/wrist, and when I twisted my right hand outward to use the mouse, it was pinching this nerve constantly. But instead of having pain in my wrist or forearms, it was causing pain in my neck and shoulders. This is a well-known phenomenon called "referred pain" where the body might not have the proper pain receptors to show pain in one area, so it sends the pain signals elsewhere.
I started to wonder why I could write notes with a pen for hours and hours throughout college and never had any issues, but a couple of years out of college, I had such debilitating pain that I almost had to quit. So I bought a mouse that had the form factor of a pen and tried to recreate my experience writing by moving my keyboard away and using the pen mouse the way I would when I write with a pen. It was a very primitive mouse with a roller ball the size of a marble at the tip, but it completely worked. After the pen mouse died in 9 months, I tried to recreate my wrist angle in a similar way as the pen mouse with a normal mouse and it worked as well. As I said, I've adopted this convention and people comment on how weirdly I hold the mouse, but I've been pain free ever since.
examples I've heard of: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-vertical-erg...
https://us.anker.com/products/a7852
https://ergonomictrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/pen-m...
I'm not endorsing the one above, just showing what it looks like. The one I had from the late 90s was wired, with a big roller at the tip instead of it being optical.
The main thing is that when you hold a pen, your hand is more up and down rather than flat to the surface of the table, like when you're holding a mouse. Having it up and down is a more natural position for the hand relative to your body and doesn't force it to be twisted away from the body so that I could hold the mouse. That twist was was pinched my nerve for me.
I got the ergo one[1] and my wrist pain went away, the key is that now I don't move my wrist anymore.
[1] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...
I might need to try either getting the one you linked or perhaps 3D printing a stand to tilt my existing mouse out and experiment.
I love the tilt, and the improved build quality.
But I wish it had better battery life, was a size bigger, and had Linux drivers.
The M570 also has a red led that lights up when you need to replace the battery. The ergo doesn't have any such led, so the only sign that you need to recharge it is when it dies.
There are some "drivers" for it but I haven't had much luck with them. What I did find was someone had some scripts I was able to use to get things usable on a 4k monitor: https://gitlab.com/khaytsus/mxergo
It took a few weeks to operate the mouse well with left hand, but now I'm fairly ok with left handed usage. Still using right hand mouse for high precision gestures and when I need left hand on keyboard (when using Tab). Unfortunately the choice for left handed mice is very low and they're expensive;I use a symmetrical Kensington trackball with the left hand.
This is also a general recommendation for gamers looking to improve their accuracy with FPS style games. Low DPI, larger arm movements provides higher accuracy.
The solution was to switch my mouse to the left side, where it could be slightly closer to my body. It took a few months of getting used to, but after 10-20 years (can't remember), I've never had pain on my left arm. I have tried going back to right side a few times, just out of curiosity, and the pain on the right arm will come back after a few months.
A concerted programme of golfer's elbow exercises and creating a split keyboard as described have dealt with the pain.
I am now using a Slimblade trackball and not getting on with it: it causes different pain and 3 months in I am still not accurate.
I would also review desk/chair height and other major elements of the setup too. Pain in the extremities can have causation near the hips, back or shoulders so increasingly I favor looking for holistic solutions. Lately I have been doing animal crawl exercises(bear, lizard, crab) and have found that they clear up a lot of minor aches-and-pains issues, so that might be another thing to try.
I noticed that very early on in my career. Back when keyboards you could reasonably buy always had a keypad at the right of the keyboard.
So what did I do back then? (we're talking early 2000 or so)...
I learned to use my mouse as a leftie.
And to this day I can use my mouse either with the left hand or right hand.
Also I made sure to configure everything so that mouse usage is minimized.
almost every mouse/keyboard combo has the mousepad on the side which I dislike
This has been my experience too. I used to have a TKL keyboard, thought I needed a numpad even though the only times I would've had use for it have been Blender and a GTA V plane flying mission.
Now I've gone down the rabbit hole of split keyboards and ergonomic mice when all I really need is a TKL keyboard. ZSA Moonlander is dope, but it doesn't help the mouse situation.
The "Q-A-Z" slope goes completely against the natural angle of your left finger curl. Same for every finger on your left hand.
The right hand gets things right with "U-J-M" etc. Nice finger curl with your hand in a natural position.
On normal keyboards we should be teaching and typing the "W-S-Z" (or even "E-S-Z") column with your left ring finger, not the completely perpendicular "W-S-X".