Ask HN: I am being pushed out. How do I handle?

I just got put on a pip this week. One thing if you're over 40 and in the USA you have 21 days to review any sort of severance package. Take it to a lawyer, he can probably get your more.

The opportunity set outside where you are now is huge. Take advantage of the whole market, not just one company with lousy leadership.

If you're in a bad situation, the best thing to do is to leave. Your first and greatest loyalty should be to yourself, not to "the team". Your time is finite; do not waste it in situations that you cannot control. You will kid yourself that you might be able to make them see sense, or that things will improve, but that is wishful thinking.

Again, your time is finite; do not waste it in situations that you cannot control.

Didn't need 340 words of backstory. For liability reasons, your manager can't tell you if you're on the chopping block. Programmers of all ages get laid off all the time -- there's no good way to handle it other than discreetly and with your chin held high. I suck at leetcode too, but I deal with it.

I was in the same situation. You are fearful. Embrace the fear. I’ve been through many leetcode kind of interviews and when I don’t know something I say so. I suggest you do the same. After your first few interviews you will be better at interviewing. You will not be a fit in all places you interview and that’s ok. It’s about putting yourself out there and that’s the scary part. The good news is you see the handwriting on the wall. Take this as a two prong approach: 1. Reach out to contract agencies who will help get you interviews. 2. use linked in to contact other employers. Update your resume and by the way. I took a 7 page resume down to 3 with over 20 years of work under my belt so get that in order. As you know once you start something it will finish as long as you put the energy forth. You are in your prime and an asset to any company. You have something called maturity and thousands of hours of programming under your belt. Others don’t. Some will appreciate that some won’t. Sometimes you just gotta smile and wave boys just smile and wave.

I too have experienced ageism. It seems to be particularly bad in IT where knowing the latest fad has more value than years of experience and a track record of delivering results. Unfortunately, I have seen the issue arise in the hiring side as well. I have been rejected numerous times with various lame excuses.

Prioritize your personal needs. The decisions you make depends on where you are seeking work - both geography and technology. If you have sufficient savings to handle a long job search, then you'd be best to resign with your head held high. The emotional toll of your present situation is just not worth it. If you can't afford to resign now, then start looking for a new position. It's generally easier to land a new job when you have one.

Your loyalty is misplaced. Update your resume, get your personal appearance spruced up, brush up on your interviewing skills and start looking for a better deal elsewhere.

What makes you think that you're being pushed out? Before you take any action make sure that you aren't just making assumptions about what's happening.

It is very possible they are being told by the owners to cut costs. I work in tech acquisitions, and there is a breed of private equity fund who believe 100% in the business model of "make sure everything can be done by a junior and then hire lots of commodity coders - and get rid of any seniors who can represent key person risk." The vast majority of software companies are in ownership/investment positions where the investors call these shots, whether you hear about it or not. Unfortunately, they are right, that is one model that can work. However, when I have assessed companies like that, (even wildly successful $1B+ ones) they seem like awful, awful places to work for anyone who actually cares about the craft. The ONLY good role in those companies is OWNER. Conversely, there are others who believe that small teams of experts can be a very cost effective way to make money.

You need to get out of Dodge and find one of the second. Believe me, they are out there and fighting for senior talent, I talk to them all the time about it.

Not sure if this makes sense for you, but you might try freelancing or whatever you may call it. I've been a freelance developer for 20 years and it's just 100% fun, no meetings and no office politics!

Do not resign. Let them fire you and that way you can get severance or file for unemployment. In the meanwhile, brush up on DSA and system design. Invest in leetcode premium and start going though the solutions and approaches. Nowadays it takes about 4-8 weeks of solid LC to prepare yourself for an interview.

> gives me the time to explore building something on my own. But it will definitely hurt my self respect.

In my mind, the time to explore building something of one's own is when one is working at a company. There might be limits due to IP assignment agreements, non-competes, time and energy, but that is the time to explore. Preferably it is going along with some success before leaving. I don't think the time to begin exploring is when one has no paycheck coming in.

Also, if your performance rating is lower than expected, you can explore a little bit, but now is probably the time to prepare for interviews.

> The other option is to start applying outside right away. But I have a lot of concerns. I know the market is hot for 2-10 years profile. Not sure about the senior level jobs. Even if I get selected for interviews, rejection will further demotivate me. I havent given interviews for a long time. I am very good at design, latest technologies etc. But I hate leetcode kind of interviews. The other problem is that, in a new company/job, I wont be able to focus on other things since the expectation will be high. I need to prove again. And eventually one will have the same problem no matter which company.

You should always be somewhat prepared to lose your job, so if you feel rusty at interviewing, you should be preparing for interviewing and then start going on interviews.

In terms of getting rejected at/for interviews being demotivating, there is a balancing act for you. On one hand you are rusty at interviews and probably need to go on some, on the other hand, you're right, if things are going bad at work, too many interview rejections probably will be demotivating. So brush up on what you need to before interviews (you mentioned leetcode).

I went on a number of interviews two years ago, and talk to other programmers who are interviewing, and have a fairly decent idea what is asked on interviews. Currently I feel fairly safe where I am, so if I planned on leaving I would spend enough time preparing to interview so that I would get a high percentage of offers at the seniority/salary level I am in now (or higher, but that would take more time to prepare). That would mean having ready answers for typical questions (tell me about an accomplishment you're proud of, tell me about a hard situation you encountered etc.), as well as leetcode, and also being up to date on the latest and greatest stuff in my main stack and framework. I would also interview at large companies first and then smaller companies, as larger companies take more time to make an offer and also the offer tends to last.

The clock may be ticking for you, so you don't have the luxury of as much preparation time as you want, and also you might be rustier on interviews and what might be asked (I was initially surprised by some question types on my last interview go-around I never heard before). You probably want to get one or two interviews done in the near future, the problem is if you get an offer it won't be a competitive offer. Or if it is a FAANG or something you want to have on your list, you knock it off your list before adequate prep. But you should probably start interviewing fairly soon. Even if you get an offer, you can still stay at your job.

Because it could be the situation that you don't prep adequately, go on a dozen leetcode interviews and get rejected by all of them, which crosses them off the list and is demotivating. So it's all a balance. You should probably interview somewhere fairly soon, after a little prep.

Another thing - a good, well-funded company might hire for a senior role, and get six applicants that get an in-person interview. You might be the second best applicant, and would be considered "good", but someone else might just be better (or better at leetcode and interviewing) and gets the position. From your perspective it is pass/fail, offer or no offer - from their perspective they might get two or three good candidates ...

Life is change, brother.

My approach would be to start preparing to move on, this kind of change is scary, but it usually works out.

Start practicing your interview skills by going to interviews.

Good luck!

It sounds like it is time to move on. From one senior person to another, here's my playbook.

Consider your current network of former colleagues and people you have met at conferences, etc. (Or social networks/slacks/HN, if that's more your thing.) If you don't have any place to start, look on LinkedIn (or your local alternative if LI isn't big where you are).

I'd start to refresh/revive those networks. That's the best way to find a job, in my experience (I am in the USA, not in Silicon Valley, fwiw).

If you have kept them up, then start to talk to folks about what they are seeing for people with your skillset or bigger tech trends.

If you have not talked to these folks, reach out and ask them for coffee (virtual or not). Ask them about their current challenges and how they are doing. People (myself included) love to talk about themselves. At this stage DO NOT ask them for work or about a job. You're reviving these networks and nothing will harm that like seeming desperate (which you are not!).

After a couple of months of checking in, you will have a better idea of the job market available to you without necessarily going through the normal job application process.

At this point, I'd start to let folks know you are looking to make a change. Find 3-10 companies where:

   * you know someone (or know someone who knows someone)
   * you are interested in some aspect of the company (tech, domain, team, approach to the problem)
   * you have reviewed their jobs page or otherwise determined they are hiring for your skillset/experience

Reach out to those companies, preferably through your contact, and ask if they are looking for someone with your experience, or if they know anyone who is. (The latter is a nice escape hatch if they know it won't fit, and you never know what serendipity will bring.)

Keep track of all of these (I like a simple spreadsheet, I'm sure there are other solutions). While finding a new job may be #1 on your priority list, it moves up and down hiring manager's priorities, so don't feel bad about pinging folks regularly. As companies move off the list (not a fit, or for whatever other reason) add new companies to the list.

Also, take the time to do research to find out what you should be paid. Lots of good articles here: https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/

This is going to be kinda painful, so prepare for that (as you mentioned, rejection will occur, as will bad interviews and tasks that take up your free time).

But once you are through, you'll have found a job where you are valued and a few months after that you'll wonder why you waited so long.

The advise here to think about what brings you joy and how to do more of that next is solid.

Short term, I think you have an another opportunity: to negotiate an exit with your manager.

Sounds like your in the age and comp range where the company has to be careful about how you’re removed. And you might be able to leverage that to negotiate an exit that satisfies everyone.

Setup a face to face with your boss and lay out the facts professionally. Then, ask for six months salary (or whatever you want) in exchange for resigning and releasing the company.

Obviously your specific requests will be up to what you want.

If you’re not a confrontational person by nature, consider this a wonderful real life learning opportunity to navigate and develop that skill. And hopefully get something that you want — even if it’s just a softer landing between roles.

If you think it is time to go, then go.

None of the alternatives you are considering focuses on moving on.

Team up with the other senior developers to hire a senior, yes senior, labor lawyer and have him get to work on laying the groundwork for an age discrimination class action lawsuit.

His/her advice will be for everybody to begin a diary of interactions with management and retrieve what each individual can of their history with the employer. This is the time for everybody to copy and/or print your emails and other interactions with management to a place where you can access them after being frog marched out of the office.

Work from home situations make it easier to preserve the data your lawyer wants preserved.

A good labor lawyer representing several senior developers will know if / when it might be advantageous to fire a shot across the bow before terminations - AFTER s/he has complete documentation.

Oh yes, be very sparing in documentation of the processes you babysit.

My last multinational manager had me spend a half day to describe my weekly database update procedure to a well connected lady who had never seen a SQL statement before. That system slowly sank into the sunset as several more years and megabucks were expended on head office's chosen replacement.

I was always afraid of being laid off and when I was in this situation always started actively interviewing and ultimately jumped the ship before I was on the chopping block. I was laid off for the first time in my career right before Covid (very unfortunate timing) and got a decent severance package which allowed me to regroup, take a breather, and retool while still having some income (I am also in my 40s and also have savings to fall back on). So if I were you I'd keep chugging along while quietly getting ready for possible layoff (go through training, certification, work on your network, etc). The main danger is if they start actively looking for excuses to fire you (e.g., they might find issues with your performance and put you on PIP and subsequently fire you). My understanding is that companies try not to do that, word travels and potential employees might be hesitant to work there. Especially with people in protected categories (you are over 40) which is a liability. So it's more likely even if they decide to push you out they'd force you to resign to avoid paying severance. Can confirm that aging discrimination in IT is a thing, esp. if you are still a developer. It simply means you might spend more time looking comparing to a junior guy. Good luck.

There is a saying my dad often reminds me of: “It is far easier to find a job when you have one than when you don’t”. I felt exactly as you did. I weighed similar scenarios as you. I had a former manager continually remind me to start looking while I could. The saying my dad often told me holds true. You have time to think. You have time to say no to offers. You have less in the game to say yes right away. You value yourself more and can leverage that knowledge when negotiating. When you leave or are left, there is a desperation that wiggles in and may lead you to pick something you might have otherwise said no to. I was very unhappy where I was. I now work with an awesome group of people, I am challenged and I am making significantly more than I initially thought I was worth. I only learned that after getting multiple interviews and offers.

40's?! Is this a joke? Do companies think 45 is too old?