There are deeper issues. There's a big difference between excuses and explanations: there are no excuses for the behavior, but there's plenty of reason to search for explanations. Why are the riots happening? People don't smash things just because they want to. There's a reason, even if you disagree with it and think it's unjust.
I'm not sure what the reasons are behind the riots, but I'm sure that they are not "random" and (haha) "isolated" as the BBC often puts it. The interview here shows the BBC "reporter" asking leading questions to attempt to deceive her audience and to curve the conversation to fit a pre-determined story. She attempts to discredit him on numerous occasions. Her behavior is childish and irresponsible - and THAT is the deeper issue I see here.
I don't know why the riots are happening the way they are, but the police and the BBC (and most other media) are handling it very poorly. There are deeper issues, whether you like that fact or not.
First, most of the serious arson and crime in these riots seems to be committed by adults.
> 14-18 year old punks do exactly that... smash things just because they want.
Second, if that's the case then why aren't 14-18 year olds smashing things daily in California? And Tokyo? And all over the world? The question is why England? Why right now? Why not two weeks ago?
Those are valid questions to ask, and searching for answers is a useful activity. It will reveal knowledge about humans, help us build better societies in the future.
Ignoring all causes and blindly, ignorantly saying that people smash things "just because" is just as dumb as the people smashing things.
> First, most of the serious arson and crime in these riots seems to be committed by adults.
That's contrary to every single image and video published.
> Second, if that's the case then why aren't 14-18 year olds smashing things daily in California? And Tokyo? And all over the world? The question is why England? Why right now? Why not two weeks ago?
Why would they? No one is claiming that all 14-18 year olds do this... Only a sub-group that have nothing better to do, that have no supervision, that blame everyone for everything, that think this is all LOLs and fun, that want to take rather than work, that want to destroy rather than create, etc.
Events occur that develop criticality (group size, slow response of police, etc) all the time.
It's simple: # of punks + no police response = looting and burning.
I agree that mob mentality can reach "criticality" and cause crazy stuff to happen over one night. The thing that makes this different from a football riot (or the WTO riots), however, is that the activity is sustained and spreading. I feel it demonstrates an intense hate on the part of the rioters.
This kind of violence indicates a core problem which cannot be addressed in the long term by police swinging billy clubs and shooting water cannons. I expect that this will get ugly at some point in the future even if the police manage to quell the immediate problem.
Exactly right. These disaffected young people clearly feel that they are not a part of society, so they're just going to take from it what they can whilst they can. I'm not saying it's justified, just that that's how it is.
Now the reason for them feeling that way is at least partially the fault of our society, and we need to ask ourselves some deeper questions on why this happens. To do otherwise and to just call them "yobs" is sticking your head in the sand.
And have you seen the pictures of the police kicking the crap out of some boy whilst he's on the ground? How can the police possibly justify that? He's on the ground! You've got him! Well done! NOW - Just arrest him!
Your argument is overdetermined. If that were the case--if there are no underlying causes except evil people burning things for the lulz--then why now?
Why isn't it a constant presence in every society that has evil people?
Indeed, why hasn't it been a constant presence in England until a few days ago?
Going further, if it's only happening in England now because people have become evil, why did they become evil at this particular point in time?
It should be noted that UK law doesn't allow the news to air unconfirmed speculation as fact or else they, as well as the person saying it, can be held liable for defamation. The interviewer, by UK law and most likely BBC policy, is required to interrupt him after he says that a boy was shot in the face by police because the BBC can't prove that the boy was shot in the face.
Initial reports I've read are that the boy he says was fatally shot by police was first non-fatally shot in the bicep, and then fatally shot in the chest. Enough of a difference to warrant the interruption in that case.
Yes, and yet, at 3:44 in the video she states "...You have taken part in [riots] yourself." Which is pure speculation. She showed very little integrity in that accusation.
But it isn't speculation[1], he's organised riots[2]. Darcus Howe is a far-left ex-Black Panther who sees nearly everything through colour[3]. If you take a moment to read his columns you'll see recurring themes about how black people are treated. Take it with a massive rock of salt.
True. Without defending the reporter, as I have my own opinion about the interview, it isn't a bad thing that she tries to challenge his view of the situation to get more information, but the way she does it seems forced and coercive, trying to almost pin him as "one of them" without saying it directly.
Edit: I've also read about his past, as a few other people have responded to your comment linking to some of his history as an activist. That's a whole different ballgame from the one I was originally talking about, which is responsible journalism.
"Initial reports I've read are that the boy he says was fatally shot by police was first non-fatally shot in the bicep, and then fatally shot in the chest."
Yes, also Mark Duggan was 29 - hardly "a boy".
Edit: Actually, while it's been confirmed that Mark Duggan was shot in the bicep and (fatally) in the chest, I don't think they've established the order in which the shots were fired.
For the benefit of the HN readers outside of the UK. I'm one of the UK-based HN'ers. I don't live in London but am close enough to pass through on an almost daily basis. I'm normally in London about once or twice a week (third time this week today). This is my opinion. I know people involved in Youth Offending Services and plenty of police forces, but it is just and opinion. I spoke to a friend in Youth Offending Services, they were just surprised that it hadn't happened sooner.
Put simply, our policing and justice models are broken. Everything is broken from the level of force the police are allowed to apply, through to the way that targets are set up to the sentences that magistrates are allowed to set.
The rehabilitation model is also broken. Youths who get into trouble are forced to attend courses to discuss their feelings. There is no real sense of punishment and for them there are no real consequences. As a result of all of this, we have bred several generations of a failed underclass, some of whom have no sense of personal responsibility. We have entire generations on welfare where kids don't really have a hope in hell of getting out of the hole they're in.
At the same time they're told that they're entitled to great things in the media, the role models they're given live a lifestyle far beyond their reach but promote vicious or illegal activity and that if they want something that they should take it.
The combination of a lack of consequences and the inability of the police to control the initial riots has caused other groups across the country to test the local police forces and there is a slowly growing realisation that the police are ineffective at stopping this type of crime, unless large numbers are used.
These people still believe that there will be no consequences for their actions, and that if they are caught then they'll face little by way of punishment due to prison overcrowding and the sheer volume of crime. Here's an interview with a rioter, and with people who've decided to take the law into their own hands in Manchester: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646....
There is no simple resolution to this situation. Many people are calling for the army to go in, but the problem isn't that the police are ineffectual and outnumbered, it's that they're not allowed to engage. This in turn enrages local people who see the police at one end of the street while looters strip somewhere clean at the other end. This will not end well, mark my words.
If the police manage to restore order completely across the country for long enough then there's a chance that we can return to what we've had, but the genie has come out of the bottle and the feral elements of the underclass know that there are limits to the capabilities to stop them in the first place.
If the police cannot restore order, then things will get worse as softer targets are chosen (such as purely residential areas, currently largely untouched) and people take the law into their own hands.
Again - this is just my opinion. You may have one. I may be wrong. I just thought I'd write this in case people want an idea of what's being discussed round these parts.
In the middle-class riots, I mean students, May Day, etc, the idea of rioting as a pastime was established, you could smash in a McDonalds, say it was "political" and pretty much get away Scot free. Those people, who were only really doing for the lulz, hated being kettled, so they had the practice banned. But was OK to smash up the centre of town then retire to the safety of gentrified Stoke Newington.
Now those same middle class people are crying out for the police to protect them - and the one police tactic that's effective in quelling a riot they can't use! That's irony.
I just wrote a very similar response, but it now seems superfluous.
This is a by-product of the chav generations. It's the same people that make city centres essentially a no-go area on Friday and Saturday night. It's the outcome of a binge drinking culture which has been galvanized by the popular media. It's a result of overcrowded prisons, failing schools and a lack of things for young people to do.
I don't really know if there's a fix for this. I'm certainly not smart enough to have one, and I don't think there's any easy solution. The government needs to prioritise critical services like the NHS (a whole other debate on whether it's actually doing that) as well as other core services. It's difficult to justify youth centres and programs if hospitals are dangerously underfunded, especially when there is no quantitative or conclusive evidence regarding their efficacy. In the financial climate it's tough to enforce legislation without hurting international competitivness, already so many companies are leaving the UK for eastern Europe, India and China.
It's a mess, no doubt about it, and while I'm sure people have very strong opinions on aspects of what I've touched upon, there is a naivety to assume you know the answer to the problem. It's multidimensional, but without any clearly defined data, and different elements are changing at different rates. Politicians are in reality not stupid, despite what we might want to suggest, and a democratic system does ensure moderation, if nothing else. I hope someone has some ideas soon though, because the UK is slipping, and I don't like where it's going.
[I should probably also add that these are my opinions, having grown up both around the UK and in mainland Europe. I could be wrong, and frankly I really hope I am]
25 comments
[ 2.2 ms ] story [ 66.7 ms ] threadPeople want an explanation and a reason for all this, so they make one up.
You don't "riot" against other innocent people, you riot against the government. These mutts are doing the former, not the latter.
I'm not sure what the reasons are behind the riots, but I'm sure that they are not "random" and (haha) "isolated" as the BBC often puts it. The interview here shows the BBC "reporter" asking leading questions to attempt to deceive her audience and to curve the conversation to fit a pre-determined story. She attempts to discredit him on numerous occasions. Her behavior is childish and irresponsible - and THAT is the deeper issue I see here.
I don't know why the riots are happening the way they are, but the police and the BBC (and most other media) are handling it very poorly. There are deeper issues, whether you like that fact or not.
14-18 year old punks do exactly that... smash things just because they want.
> 14-18 year old punks do exactly that... smash things just because they want.
Second, if that's the case then why aren't 14-18 year olds smashing things daily in California? And Tokyo? And all over the world? The question is why England? Why right now? Why not two weeks ago?
Those are valid questions to ask, and searching for answers is a useful activity. It will reveal knowledge about humans, help us build better societies in the future.
Ignoring all causes and blindly, ignorantly saying that people smash things "just because" is just as dumb as the people smashing things.
That's contrary to every single image and video published.
> Second, if that's the case then why aren't 14-18 year olds smashing things daily in California? And Tokyo? And all over the world? The question is why England? Why right now? Why not two weeks ago?
Why would they? No one is claiming that all 14-18 year olds do this... Only a sub-group that have nothing better to do, that have no supervision, that blame everyone for everything, that think this is all LOLs and fun, that want to take rather than work, that want to destroy rather than create, etc.
Events occur that develop criticality (group size, slow response of police, etc) all the time.
It's simple: # of punks + no police response = looting and burning.
Just take a look at the videos on the right... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14461431
I agree that mob mentality can reach "criticality" and cause crazy stuff to happen over one night. The thing that makes this different from a football riot (or the WTO riots), however, is that the activity is sustained and spreading. I feel it demonstrates an intense hate on the part of the rioters.
This kind of violence indicates a core problem which cannot be addressed in the long term by police swinging billy clubs and shooting water cannons. I expect that this will get ugly at some point in the future even if the police manage to quell the immediate problem.
Now the reason for them feeling that way is at least partially the fault of our society, and we need to ask ourselves some deeper questions on why this happens. To do otherwise and to just call them "yobs" is sticking your head in the sand.
And have you seen the pictures of the police kicking the crap out of some boy whilst he's on the ground? How can the police possibly justify that? He's on the ground! You've got him! Well done! NOW - Just arrest him!
Why isn't it a constant presence in every society that has evil people?
Indeed, why hasn't it been a constant presence in England until a few days ago?
Going further, if it's only happening in England now because people have become evil, why did they become evil at this particular point in time?
Initial reports I've read are that the boy he says was fatally shot by police was first non-fatally shot in the bicep, and then fatally shot in the chest. Enough of a difference to warrant the interruption in that case.
As soon as he's backed into a corner he plays the "negro" card, he knows fully well how to manipulate the BBC.
If you look at the footage and photos of the rioters, they come in all shades.
[1] - http://www.internationaltimes.it/index.php?year=1971&vol...
[2] - http://www.nickelinthemachine.com/2008/08/brixton-and-the-ri...
[3] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4360054.stm
[2] has Howe narrating what happened in the riots, not him claiming to have organized them.
And [1] is about how a rioting case against him was thrown out.
Edit: I've also read about his past, as a few other people have responded to your comment linking to some of his history as an activist. That's a whole different ballgame from the one I was originally talking about, which is responsible journalism.
Yes, also Mark Duggan was 29 - hardly "a boy".
Edit: Actually, while it's been confirmed that Mark Duggan was shot in the bicep and (fatally) in the chest, I don't think they've established the order in which the shots were fired.
Put simply, our policing and justice models are broken. Everything is broken from the level of force the police are allowed to apply, through to the way that targets are set up to the sentences that magistrates are allowed to set.
The rehabilitation model is also broken. Youths who get into trouble are forced to attend courses to discuss their feelings. There is no real sense of punishment and for them there are no real consequences. As a result of all of this, we have bred several generations of a failed underclass, some of whom have no sense of personal responsibility. We have entire generations on welfare where kids don't really have a hope in hell of getting out of the hole they're in.
At the same time they're told that they're entitled to great things in the media, the role models they're given live a lifestyle far beyond their reach but promote vicious or illegal activity and that if they want something that they should take it.
The combination of a lack of consequences and the inability of the police to control the initial riots has caused other groups across the country to test the local police forces and there is a slowly growing realisation that the police are ineffective at stopping this type of crime, unless large numbers are used.
These people still believe that there will be no consequences for their actions, and that if they are caught then they'll face little by way of punishment due to prison overcrowding and the sheer volume of crime. Here's an interview with a rioter, and with people who've decided to take the law into their own hands in Manchester: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9560000/9560646....
There is no simple resolution to this situation. Many people are calling for the army to go in, but the problem isn't that the police are ineffectual and outnumbered, it's that they're not allowed to engage. This in turn enrages local people who see the police at one end of the street while looters strip somewhere clean at the other end. This will not end well, mark my words.
If the police manage to restore order completely across the country for long enough then there's a chance that we can return to what we've had, but the genie has come out of the bottle and the feral elements of the underclass know that there are limits to the capabilities to stop them in the first place.
If the police cannot restore order, then things will get worse as softer targets are chosen (such as purely residential areas, currently largely untouched) and people take the law into their own hands.
Again - this is just my opinion. You may have one. I may be wrong. I just thought I'd write this in case people want an idea of what's being discussed round these parts.
Now those same middle class people are crying out for the police to protect them - and the one police tactic that's effective in quelling a riot they can't use! That's irony.
This is a by-product of the chav generations. It's the same people that make city centres essentially a no-go area on Friday and Saturday night. It's the outcome of a binge drinking culture which has been galvanized by the popular media. It's a result of overcrowded prisons, failing schools and a lack of things for young people to do.
I don't really know if there's a fix for this. I'm certainly not smart enough to have one, and I don't think there's any easy solution. The government needs to prioritise critical services like the NHS (a whole other debate on whether it's actually doing that) as well as other core services. It's difficult to justify youth centres and programs if hospitals are dangerously underfunded, especially when there is no quantitative or conclusive evidence regarding their efficacy. In the financial climate it's tough to enforce legislation without hurting international competitivness, already so many companies are leaving the UK for eastern Europe, India and China.
It's a mess, no doubt about it, and while I'm sure people have very strong opinions on aspects of what I've touched upon, there is a naivety to assume you know the answer to the problem. It's multidimensional, but without any clearly defined data, and different elements are changing at different rates. Politicians are in reality not stupid, despite what we might want to suggest, and a democratic system does ensure moderation, if nothing else. I hope someone has some ideas soon though, because the UK is slipping, and I don't like where it's going.
[I should probably also add that these are my opinions, having grown up both around the UK and in mainland Europe. I could be wrong, and frankly I really hope I am]
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/bbc-apologi...