Sure, but that's a very thin reed on which to hang mandates and vaccine passports. Just yesterday the POTUS was saying that being vaccinated means "you are protected and can't spread" COVID as part of his case for them: https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1446211115738931209
Where I live, protecting the hospitals from overload was the main reason given for the lockdowns that started in March 2020. The vaccine succeeds in protecting hospitals (the rate of hospitalisation is now about one sixth of what it was at comparable infection incidence at the end of last year), so it maybe a thin reed but it's a reed that does the job.
The hospitals are in much worse shape after terminating all the unvaccinated staff. When they "give" you that as the reason for what they are doing, they are lying. If that was truly their motivation they would have increased hospital capacity, not reduced it. And now that "the hospitals are overwhelmed" is justification in the public's mind for sweeping emergency powers, you should expect them to be some level of 'overwhelmed' (at least, according to the press) in perpetuity.
No. But that's not the key question. The key question is: Did this reduction reduce the hospital requirement forecasts such that hospitals have free beds and can handle sudden and big accidents? An aircraft crash, a derailed train, a wave of food poisonings? And that is now the case, since the vaccines protect so well against severe effects.
This. I'm a doc covering our ICU and I'm seeing an endless stream of Delta COVID-19 patients which are 95% unvaccinated and younger than in 2020.
There are many socio-politico-scientific issues/stories surrounding SARS-CoV-2 but, in my opinion, the most dangerous impact of this virus is the ability it has to massively deplete medical resources in a region. In real-time, SARS-CoV-2 is saturating our beds/resources and burning-out staff. No staff have been dismissed from our healthcare system (~20 hospitals) due to unvaccinated status and nurse staffing has been critical since spring of 2020. Considerable effort is expended daily just to find staffed beds for patients within our hospital (or within our region if we are at max).
(Have been a long-time reader of HN and this is my first post. Just want to thank everyone for a great community over the years. Well done.)
There is no simple definition of immunity. It's not a binary condition. The human immune system is complex with multiple mechanisms at work. Long term immunity tends to depend more on memory cells than circulating antibodies.
Note that it didn’t say immunity. The quoted number is saying the rate of hospitalization and death among the vaccinated is 90% lower than it is among the unvaccinated. It’s a simple calculation. Group a had X hospitalizations, group b had Y. Adjusting for population sizes, X is 90% lower than Y.
Not sure if this is against HN guidelines, but these are his submissions from THIS WEEK.
I let you decide what is going on here:
-----
Pfizer vaccine immunity diminishes, can reach as low as 20% after 4 months (insider.com) 6 points by AndrewBissell 1 hour ago | flag | past | 6 comments 2.
Hospitals consider universal DNR orders for coronavirus patients (2020) (washingtonpost.com) 4 points by AndrewBissell 19 hours ago | flag | past | 1 comment 3.
Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna vaccine in men under 30 (yahoo.com) 14 points by AndrewBissell 22 hours ago | flag | past | 6 comments 4.
Pfizer Asks FDA to Authorize Its Covid-19 Vaccine for Children Aged 5 to 11 (nytimes.com) 2 points by AndrewBissell 1 day ago | flag | past | discuss 5.
Contrived Spectacles of “Protecting and Caring for the People” (brownstone.org) 2 points by AndrewBissell 1 day ago | flag | past | discuss 6.
A Report on Covid-19 Vaccine Associated Myocarditis Adverse Events in VAERS (sciencedirect.com) 20 points by AndrewBissell 1 day ago | flag | past | discuss 7.
Mechanism of molnupiravir-induced SARS-CoV-2 mutagenesis (nature.com) 2 points by AndrewBissell 1 day ago | flag | past | discuss 8.
Sweden pauses use of Moderna COVID vaccine for people under 30 (reuters.com) 7 points by AndrewBissell 2 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 9.
University of Colorado Health denies kidney transplant to unvaccinated patient (twitter.com/tgeitner) 10 points by AndrewBissell 2 days ago | flag | past | 6 comments 10.
A ‘Pacemaker for the Brain’: No Treatment Helped Her Depression – Until This (nytimes.com) 9 points by AndrewBissell 2 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 11.
Predominance of antibody-resistant Covid variants in Bay Area breakthrough cases (medrxiv.org) 10 points by AndrewBissell 3 days ago | flag | past | discuss 12.
A Company Family: The Untold History of Obama and the CIA (covertactionmagazine.com) 2 points by AndrewBissell 4 days ago | flag | past | discuss 13.
How OSHA will enforce the vaccine mandate for 80 million workers (npr.org) 3 points by AndrewBissell 4 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 14.
8 in 10 children suffered mental health issues due to Covid response (express.co.uk) 2 points by AndrewBissell 4 days ago | flag | past | discuss 15.
Nosocomial Delta variant outbreak in a highly vaccinated and high PPE population (eurosurveillance.org) 3 points by AndrewBissell 5 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 16.
Increases in Covid-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries (springer.com) 14 points by AndrewBissell 5 days ago | flag | past | 2 comments 17.
“Look It Up, Check It Out”: REX 84 and the History of an American Conspiracy (wearethemutants.com) 3 points by AndrewBissell 5 days ago | flag | past | discuss 18.
Tamiflu and influenza vaccines: More harm than good? (bmj.com) 9 points by AndrewBissell 5 days ago | flag | past | discuss 19.
Merck created hit list to discredit dissenting doctors (2009) (cbsnews.com) 39 points by AndrewBissell 6 days ago | flag | past | 6 comments 20.
Ontario university will not allow unvaccinated students to take online courses (ctvnews.ca) 5 points by AndrewBissell 6 days ago | flag | past | 3 comments 21.
Molnupiravir inhibits SARS-CoV-2 in vitro but is mutagenic in mammalian cells (bvsalud.org) 3 points by AndrewBissell 6 days ago | flag | past | discuss 22.
Durability of immune responses to the Pfizer vaccine (biorxiv.org) 2 points by AndrewBissell 7 days ago | flag | past | discuss 23.
Vietnam abandons zero-Covid strategy after record drop in GDP (ft.com) 8 points by AndrewBissell 7 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 24.
IRS would track all bank transactions over $600 in Biden plan; Businesses revolt (yahoo.com) 12 points by AndrewBissell 7 days ago | flag | past | 4 comments 25.
Incidence of Audiological Adverse Effects Induced by Covid-19 Vaccines (sagepub.com) 1 point by AndrewBissell 7 days ago | flag | past | discuss
In spite I disagree with his opinion (see for example [1]) I think it's important to keep the discussion as open as possible. The data in the article is real, and it's important to discuss it. I prefer to have a discussion about why the 20% in the submission title is a bad metric. Is it a bad metric? Why? (It looks like a result of a study that is not a RCT. It may be a good study, but I'm getting tired of reading non RCT to try to understand what they are doing and not been sure if it's a good or bad study.)
In this post I'm slightly concerned by the title. The guidelines ask to use the original title, that is "Pfizer's COVID-19 protection against infection may wane after 2 months, but it still prevents hospitalization and death for at least 6, new study finds" . It's too long.
You can be pessimist and use the first part, or optimist and use the second part. Both are opinionated reductions. The OP used a sentence somewhere in the middle of the article, that is also a possibility in case the title is too bad, but in this case it's also a very opinionated choice.
The headline and link have changed from the original Yahoo News post I submitted. I can't find it now (they have since been changed to emphasize the durability against hospitalization), but it said something like "Pfizer vaccine immunity diminishes after 2 months, may reach as low as 20% after 4 months." It was too long and I tried to cut it down while preserving the most salient details in the original headline.
No worries. I will confess to sometimes adding "restrictions" to "due to Covid" headlines (e.g. with "Hunger increases sharply in the developing world due to Covid" I would add it), but I see that as just remedying the editorialization implicit in the originals.
Yeah people are just openly calling for the unvaccinated to take the side effects lottery or lose their jobs with no possibility of unemployment assistance, don't know why anyone would care so much.
Even if the garbage, leaky COVID vaccines did something to reduce transmission of the dominant Delta variant (they don't), there is zero precedent for employers being responsible for the transmission of respiratory viruses between their employees. It's an absurd notion concocted out of whole cloth by people so monomaniacally focused on Covid that they can't see more than the two inches in front of their own face needed to realize that letting employers mandate experimental injections is a terrible idea.
Based on your submission history, you are also monomaniacally focused on Covid.
> leaky COVID vaccines did something to reduce transmission of the dominant Delta variant (they don't)
This is false[1]. Please stop spreading conspiracy theories and misinformation.
> letting employers mandate experimental injections is a terrible idea
The vaccines have been used on more than 1B people and have demonstrably saved lives. After they leave someone's system, they have no more capacity to cause harm (because they are no longer in the person's system).
What would have to happen for the vaccines not to be "experimental" anymore? By your definition, aren't all medical interventions experimental? Why do you know so much more about vaccines than actual medical professionals? What is their incentive to harm millions of people against their medical oath?
I actually agree that no government should force people to be vaccinated, but if we have undeniable evidence from millions of people around the world that unvaccinated people are more dangerous to be around, then we shouldn't let them harm other people at their workplace.
> Unfortunately, the vaccine’s beneficial effect on Delta transmission waned to almost negligible levels over time. In people infected 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine developed by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca, both in the UK, the chance that an unvaccinated close contact would test positive was 57%, but 3 months later, that chance rose to 67%. The latter figure is on par with the likelihood that an unvaccinated person will spread the virus.
A reduction was also observed in people vaccinated with the jab made by US company Pfizer and German firm BioNTech. The risk of spreading the Delta infection soon after vaccination with that jab was 42%, but increased to 58% with time.
Wow, truly amazing protection. Better get started firing everyone who had their shots more than 3 months ago too.
> After they leave someone's system, they have no more capacity to cause harm (because they are no longer in the person's system).
Complete nonsense that flies in the face of even the manufacturers' own risk statements, not to mention their insistence on being granted continued blanket immunity against unforeseen damages -- why bother if, as you insist, they are ontologically impossible? Perhaps it's because the human body and immune system are not some computer program about which one can reason a priori as if you're just inserting a few lines of code.
26 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 64.9 ms ] thread'Still, Pfizer's protection against hospitalization and death remained "robust" at 90% or higher for six months after the second dose'
Unless you can prove to me that 5 of every 6 doctors and nurses have quite due to vaccin mandates i think we are in better shapes as before
(even ignoring that anti-vaxxers in hospitals act as superspreaders)
There are many socio-politico-scientific issues/stories surrounding SARS-CoV-2 but, in my opinion, the most dangerous impact of this virus is the ability it has to massively deplete medical resources in a region. In real-time, SARS-CoV-2 is saturating our beds/resources and burning-out staff. No staff have been dismissed from our healthcare system (~20 hospitals) due to unvaccinated status and nurse staffing has been critical since spring of 2020. Considerable effort is expended daily just to find staffed beds for patients within our hospital (or within our region if we are at max).
(Have been a long-time reader of HN and this is my first post. Just want to thank everyone for a great community over the years. Well done.)
I let you decide what is going on here:
-----
Pfizer vaccine immunity diminishes, can reach as low as 20% after 4 months (insider.com) 6 points by AndrewBissell 1 hour ago | flag | past | 6 comments 2.
Hospitals consider universal DNR orders for coronavirus patients (2020) (washingtonpost.com) 4 points by AndrewBissell 19 hours ago | flag | past | 1 comment 3.
Finland joins Sweden and Denmark in limiting Moderna vaccine in men under 30 (yahoo.com) 14 points by AndrewBissell 22 hours ago | flag | past | 6 comments 4.
Pfizer Asks FDA to Authorize Its Covid-19 Vaccine for Children Aged 5 to 11 (nytimes.com) 2 points by AndrewBissell 1 day ago | flag | past | discuss 5.
Contrived Spectacles of “Protecting and Caring for the People” (brownstone.org) 2 points by AndrewBissell 1 day ago | flag | past | discuss 6.
A Report on Covid-19 Vaccine Associated Myocarditis Adverse Events in VAERS (sciencedirect.com) 20 points by AndrewBissell 1 day ago | flag | past | discuss 7.
Mechanism of molnupiravir-induced SARS-CoV-2 mutagenesis (nature.com) 2 points by AndrewBissell 1 day ago | flag | past | discuss 8.
Sweden pauses use of Moderna COVID vaccine for people under 30 (reuters.com) 7 points by AndrewBissell 2 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 9.
University of Colorado Health denies kidney transplant to unvaccinated patient (twitter.com/tgeitner) 10 points by AndrewBissell 2 days ago | flag | past | 6 comments 10.
A ‘Pacemaker for the Brain’: No Treatment Helped Her Depression – Until This (nytimes.com) 9 points by AndrewBissell 2 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 11.
Predominance of antibody-resistant Covid variants in Bay Area breakthrough cases (medrxiv.org) 10 points by AndrewBissell 3 days ago | flag | past | discuss 12.
A Company Family: The Untold History of Obama and the CIA (covertactionmagazine.com) 2 points by AndrewBissell 4 days ago | flag | past | discuss 13.
How OSHA will enforce the vaccine mandate for 80 million workers (npr.org) 3 points by AndrewBissell 4 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 14.
8 in 10 children suffered mental health issues due to Covid response (express.co.uk) 2 points by AndrewBissell 4 days ago | flag | past | discuss 15.
Nosocomial Delta variant outbreak in a highly vaccinated and high PPE population (eurosurveillance.org) 3 points by AndrewBissell 5 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 16.
Increases in Covid-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries (springer.com) 14 points by AndrewBissell 5 days ago | flag | past | 2 comments 17.
“Look It Up, Check It Out”: REX 84 and the History of an American Conspiracy (wearethemutants.com) 3 points by AndrewBissell 5 days ago | flag | past | discuss 18.
Tamiflu and influenza vaccines: More harm than good? (bmj.com) 9 points by AndrewBissell 5 days ago | flag | past | discuss 19.
Merck created hit list to discredit dissenting doctors (2009) (cbsnews.com) 39 points by AndrewBissell 6 days ago | flag | past | 6 comments 20.
Ontario university will not allow unvaccinated students to take online courses (ctvnews.ca) 5 points by AndrewBissell 6 days ago | flag | past | 3 comments 21.
Molnupiravir inhibits SARS-CoV-2 in vitro but is mutagenic in mammalian cells (bvsalud.org) 3 points by AndrewBissell 6 days ago | flag | past | discuss 22.
Durability of immune responses to the Pfizer vaccine (biorxiv.org) 2 points by AndrewBissell 7 days ago | flag | past | discuss 23.
Vietnam abandons zero-Covid strategy after record drop in GDP (ft.com) 8 points by AndrewBissell 7 days ago | flag | past | 1 comment 24.
IRS would track all bank transactions over $600 in Biden plan; Businesses revolt (yahoo.com) 12 points by AndrewBissell 7 days ago | flag | past | 4 comments 25.
Incidence of Audiological Adverse Effects Induced by Covid-19 Vaccines (sagepub.com) 1 point by AndrewBissell 7 days ago | flag | past | discuss
"We Are All Cattle Now": https://eugyppius.substack.com/p/we-are-all-cattle-now
"An Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci (1988)": https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/05/28/an-open-letter-to-dr...
In this post I'm slightly concerned by the title. The guidelines ask to use the original title, that is "Pfizer's COVID-19 protection against infection may wane after 2 months, but it still prevents hospitalization and death for at least 6, new study finds" . It's too long.
You can be pessimist and use the first part, or optimist and use the second part. Both are opinionated reductions. The OP used a sentence somewhere in the middle of the article, that is also a possibility in case the title is too bad, but in this case it's also a very opinionated choice.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28721282
Its not really a side effects lottery any longer. This is complete nonsense.
Based on your submission history, you are also monomaniacally focused on Covid.
> leaky COVID vaccines did something to reduce transmission of the dominant Delta variant (they don't)
This is false[1]. Please stop spreading conspiracy theories and misinformation.
> letting employers mandate experimental injections is a terrible idea
The vaccines have been used on more than 1B people and have demonstrably saved lives. After they leave someone's system, they have no more capacity to cause harm (because they are no longer in the person's system).
What would have to happen for the vaccines not to be "experimental" anymore? By your definition, aren't all medical interventions experimental? Why do you know so much more about vaccines than actual medical professionals? What is their incentive to harm millions of people against their medical oath?
I actually agree that no government should force people to be vaccinated, but if we have undeniable evidence from millions of people around the world that unvaccinated people are more dangerous to be around, then we shouldn't let them harm other people at their workplace.
1. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
> Unfortunately, the vaccine’s beneficial effect on Delta transmission waned to almost negligible levels over time. In people infected 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine developed by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca, both in the UK, the chance that an unvaccinated close contact would test positive was 57%, but 3 months later, that chance rose to 67%. The latter figure is on par with the likelihood that an unvaccinated person will spread the virus.
A reduction was also observed in people vaccinated with the jab made by US company Pfizer and German firm BioNTech. The risk of spreading the Delta infection soon after vaccination with that jab was 42%, but increased to 58% with time.
Wow, truly amazing protection. Better get started firing everyone who had their shots more than 3 months ago too.
> After they leave someone's system, they have no more capacity to cause harm (because they are no longer in the person's system).
Complete nonsense that flies in the face of even the manufacturers' own risk statements, not to mention their insistence on being granted continued blanket immunity against unforeseen damages -- why bother if, as you insist, they are ontologically impossible? Perhaps it's because the human body and immune system are not some computer program about which one can reason a priori as if you're just inserting a few lines of code.
Keep lecturing on "misinformation" though.