I guess this preliminary research may point to the eventual removal of the "stoner" gene from the pool? Maybe future socialists will adjust accordingly and promulgate the slacker gene in some other form? Yes - I'm being facetious.
However, isn't it generally accepted that smoking cigarettes decreases sperm count? Reading the paper now, but wonder if they were able to control for marijuana users who also consume tobacco.
Socialists believe society exists to support everyone, not just white collar knowledge workers. The kid working long hours to ensure you have sandwiches in your microkitchen deserves a living wage too.
The landlord who provides nothing to society and just gets wealthier by virtue of being already wealthy is the one socialists have a problem with.
This is terminology-wrangling that happens constantly when the bad effects of socialism to society come up. Socialism invites corruption, because it concentrates power for the sake of a vague and unattainable goal. It demands redefinition of words, because otherwise it would be seen for the tyranny that it is.
Edit: your account seems to have been using HN exclusively for this. That's not allowed here, so I've banned it. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
> Animal models demonstrate a role for cannabis in … reduced libido and sexual function but to our knowledge these results have not yet been replicated in human studies.
For comparison, alcohol is well known to have a dramatic impact on both sperm and testosterone production once you exceed a fairly modest threshold (5 drinks/week):
Why? An erection is just a natural delivery mechanism, no measure of healthy, or rather fertile sperm. Besides that Weed tends to give me a real hard boner.
Those phytoestrogens play some interesting games. As does a liver with damage caused by alcohol. Add to this the irony of all the advertising around beer being a predominantly "man's drink" and it gets even more interesting.
It's not a huge figure though: a glass of wine with dinner most nights, or a couple of brewskis with boys on Fri & Sat night. For men, the bar for "heavy" drinking is 15+ drinks/week.
Research has “The bar” being lowered for many years. It is pretty clear at this point that all but the most sparing consumption of alcohol has measurable negative effects.
This makes me wonder strongly what you would consider a significant amount of alcohol consumption, because 5 drinks/week seems like a huge amount to me already.
Where on earth do you live? Looking at some stats, that number was the average for the UAE in 2016. At this time it was illegal to drink without a license, and Muslims could not obtain these at all.
I live in the Netherlands and here alcohol consumption is highly skewed. Smoking too btw. Also one of the few - if not only - places where alcohol consumption correlates inversely with poverty.
If you drink here, you're probably an alcoholic. Even if most don't think they are.
Can't believe that, though I haven't been in .nl for a long time, so I have no 'feeling' for how it could be now. But why then there is Amstel, Grolsch, Heineken and some more?
I think they were saying everyone who drinks there is an alcoholic (by normative global standards?). The reason there would be so many beer brands is because there are a lot of consumers :)
One thing to remember that is that for alcohol consumption, average >>> median. The top drinkers drink an astronomical amount, but a typical person drinks much less than the average.
I'm not saying that their data isn't accurate, but it is strange that there's a 1:1 relationship between what the government wants to clamp down on and what will make your sperm die, make your testicles shrink, or make your penis flaccid.
No, my point is that essentially saying your man parts are going to stop working is an easy path to ground for propagandists. I'm just floating the idea that's why cigarettes, alcohol, weed, cocaine, steroids, COVID, (edit also vaccines against COVID) and god-knows-what all have a steady stream of clickbait articles about how they damage your manhood.
I worked in the legal cannabis industry & I'm pretty sure it's just old puritan values for the most part. There's also a large history related to alcohol prohibition. Long story short, the government agency that handled enforcing prohibition needed something to do after prohibition ended. Then came waves of propaganda associating weed with black people, mexicans, and gays to make white people scared of it. Isn't it kind of weird that we call it marijuana in federal laws? Before, it was all just called "hemp". Nixon ramped it up and created the beginnings of our modern prison state. The US is the most incarcerated country in the world both by per capita and total number (1). Mass imprisonment became a way steal votes away from these communities as well as create a more palatable version of slavery where we currently have people working for $0.25/hour.
The reason why so much research is just coming out now is because it was illegal to study the plant. So it's kind of backwards to say the fertility or any other non-obvious effects inspired criminalization as no science was done until it became legal enough to study.
> Current research suggests that cannabis may negatively impact male fertility. Further studies are needed to validate that robust findings in animal models will carry over into human experience.
My takeaway: if you are having trouble reproducing, and/or your doctor finds some anomalies in a full fertility workup, you may want to talk about your marijuana use with them. That's about it.
If you read that in context, it's clear that the qualification only applies to some of the results they're reporting:
The strongest evidence of cannabis induced alterations in male fertility is in the category of semen parameters. Research supports a role for cannabis in reducing sperm count and concentration, inducing abnormalities in sperm morphology, reducing sperm motility and viability, and inhibiting capacitation and fertilizing capacity. Animal models demonstrate a role for cannabis in testicular atrophy, and reduced libido and sexual function but to our knowledge these results have not yet been replicated in human studies.
"These results" clearly refers to the animal model studies they mention later, so that caveat does not apply to the "strongest evidence" they lead with, about sperm motility and viability, etc. At least not to judge by the abstract.
> My takeaway: if you are having trouble reproducing, and/or your doctor finds some anomalies in a full fertility workup, you may want to talk about your marijuana use with them. That's about it.
You should discuss all use of non-prescribed drugs with your doctor on a routine basis.
Absolutely; in my experience, they always ask (you probably won't have to be the one that brings it up). Healthcare is expensive, at least get your money's worth!
On the contrary you should assume it does unless you explicitly ask otherwise and even then it still might. And the OP is right, when you ask for life insurance they get everything because you have to allow them to ask for all data as if the request were coming from you.
YMMV but my prescribed cannabis usage did not impact my life insurance premium. I was worried it would, but knew that the blood + urine tests would show usage anyway. It worked out for me.
Maybe things have changed but in 2016 I was unable to get life insurance in CA due to admitting to recreational cannabis use with a vaporizer. A ridiculously expensive “smokers” policy was the only thing on offer.
Things might have changed. I got my policy Sept. 2021.
There was a whole section of my application regarding cannabis usage. I provided my medical rec. There was a question about seeing a psychiatrist regarding cannabis usage (no). No questions about consumption method. My premium was that of the quoted non-tobacco premium, so I don't think it was affected at all.
In Norway, admitting usage of recreational cannabis to your doctor is likely to result in your driver's license being suspended as they are known to forward the information on to police.
Advice to talk about it with your doctor is useless if you can just stop taking it. If you cannot (f.e. due to chronic pain), then you may as well stop worrying about it. Your doctor will not be able to magic anything away in either one of those scenarios.
You should still be able to be 100% honest and open with your doctor in regards to your health. The more they know about your health and habits, the better they can help you. Your doctor should not be ratting you out to the cops. That just keeps shit underground and untreated.
I agree, but the unfortunate fact is that it's not just Norway where you are one mistake away from being ratted out. General rules of thumb in this case should serve the individual. If you are very scared of drug interactions, you can just as easily find this information online.
The only caveat I would imagine with what you said is in the case of prescription drugs. Drugs of all kinds can have interactions when combined with together (both known and unknown), so disclosing the usage of non-prescribed supplements and alternative drugs can be vital information.
However, in the case of the GP comment about Norway -- if there are legal ramifications, then I suppose this becomes a more complex issue to navigate. Though, if "socially unacceptable" drugs and their usages were not so stigmatized, this wouldn't be an issue either.
One can see something like this in the US a bit. There is a somewhat rare condition called CHS (Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome) where chronic, long-term users of cannabinoid products develop a condition similar to Cyclical Vomiting Syndrome. For ER professionals, telling the difference between the two (and other GI issues) can be extremely difficult -- especially if the patient does not disclose their usage of cannabinoid products. Some ERs are starting to drug test patients exhibiting symptoms of CHS/CVS to help in the diagnostic process, so they do not have to rely on patient honesty.
I think this explains the sudden rush to legalize marijuana - if you can’t jail the pot heads then keep them from breeding! Solves multiple problems and so simple I’m surprised Nixon didn’t do this in the 70s.
In most recreationally legal states, the legalization laws came from direct democracy with the people who would not be involved with any convoluted goal aside from the stated goal on the ballot. There is nothing a governor or representative could do.
The people decided that jail was a counterproductive public policy measure and the people decided that the supply chain could be controlled to protect consumers.
This concept will likely to be extended to most of the schedule, a new framework is necessary as prohibition is being repealed, again.
Thanks for your comment. I used to think in conspiratorial ways - “Marijuana movement in US is a Chinese CCP weapon to kill US productivity, plummet the GDP and reduce population”.
Sometimes it’s just easy to imagine that a bunch of people voted for it.
Medical and therapeutic marijuana has a wide range of benefits, from depression to Parkinson to glaucoma.
Since your understanding of marijuana usage seems limited to recreational usage and you pejoratively call the consumers "potheads", I'd suggest you turn to the scientific literature, conclusively applied as policy in a growing number of countries, and confront your views to what you'd read.
To be frank, you sound pretty ignorant with this comment. I'm sure you didn't intend such but any modern perspective puts weed as a safer alternative to alcohol and a social indulgence used by many extremely successful people. This also ignores all of the medical uses which alone make it worth studying.
Tangential addendum: I used to smoke pot all the time. From my mid-teens to mid-twenties. At least once a day, increasing over time to 3-5-∞ times a day. In the last year, I have significantly reduced my marijuana usage to less than once a week. My mental health has benefitted tremendously (also thanks to a great therapist!). I sleep better, I eat less shitty food, I enjoy sex more, I feel overall more equipped to handle my daily life and be an adult. I only date people of the same sex, so standard reproduction isn't a big concern for me; but if you're a pothead like I was (am?)--there's a lot more to reflect on than your sperm count. :)
I think a lot of pro cannabis people are out of balance with viewing the negative side effects. It's a drug and has side-effects. It's much safer than tobacco and alcohol but it certainly has side effects including a strong psychological addiction potential.
I agree. It's going to get complicated though. There are hundreds of cannabinoids we're aware of with barely any scientific understanding of the effects. CBD, CBN, and CBG all started popping up in dispensaries in different combinations with THC. We still don't really fully understand what they do. There are also more potent versions of THC like THC-O (1)
Cannabinoids have been studied a bit already, not claiming we know everything about them but we're not in the blur either. And I was not thinking about THC derivatives, mostly non psychoactive (cbn/d/g).
We don't have a mature culture around cannabis usage. Alcohol has this benefit, and we have some social norms on how to enjoy it. A big one is the "don't drink before 5" adage. Norms like this for weed will develop in time, I'm sure.
I'm seeing the opposite quite often where I live, people who are quite a bit into weed usually end up needing to bake in order to sleep more comfortably.
Likely, but also cannabinoids can interfere with sleep. A regular user can experience night sweats when they do not have cannabinoids, depending on frequency of use
Smoking cannabis 8 times a day in not being "pro" cannabis.
Not wanting to get incarcerated for life for possession of few grams of a plant is "pro" cannabis.
i don't understand this cannabis-is-safer-than-alcohol myth. for example, i know people that have an extremely low mental tolerance for cannabis while functioning completely normal on a bottle of beer a day. also, i think that it is fairly well known that cannabis has a worrying correlation with schizophrenia [0]
a glass of red a night is most likely not going to give you cancer or damage your DNA. a joint a night on the other have just might (depending on your predisposition) have an extremely negative effect
besides given how long we have been consuming alcohol throughout our history, i think its effects are largely understood. we do not know this about cannabis
How long do you think humans have been consuming cannabis? Arguably longer than alcohol, not that it matters anyhow. The restrictions are arbitrary, not to mention being habituated to a nightly GABA agonist (alcohol) has just as many negative implications as nightly cannabinoids. The cannabinoids just won't five you cancer on top of it
It's like you don't even know google exists. You just spout one false fact after another.
Cannabis is one of the oldest cultivated plants in human history (1). It was smoked for pleasure and religiously long before Christianity became a religion.
I wonder, do you dilute your glass of red wine before drinking it? The ancient Greeks diluted their wine with 25% wine and 75% water. They also viewed anyone who didn't as a barbarian and drunkard (2).
I'm specifically focusing on the pharmacology of the psychoactive substances rather than the method used to consume them. No matter the method of administration, there are still risks and side effects. Sidestepping the discussion of smoking vs gaping allows us to focus on the action of the compounds themselves. We already know smoking is bad, we should not combust things and inhale the byproducts
It's not a myth and a few simple google with give you plenty of evidence. Here's a few:
- Cancer
- Weight gain (alcohol is more calorie dense than sugar)
- Birth defects
- Drunk driving: 10K deaths a year
- Violence / sexual violence
- Overdosing
- Withdrawal can cause death
- Did you know date rape drugs wouldn't work without alcohol? (2) It's only the combination with alcohol that causes the victim to pass out.
If you actually look at how alcohol has an impact on the body, it's effectively a poison. It has no medical benefits and only consequences. The whole red wine thing has nothing to do with alcohol but some of the enzymes in red wine specifically. Just drink grape juice instead.
I really don't care if you give yourself cancer. That's a personal decision but consumption of alcohol leads to so much crime and impact on others. Weed not so much. As a society, we've made a decision to tolerate it but it's still there.
Yeah, when we wanted to have a kid I quit cannabis and hot-tubbing for 6 months in anticipation of conceiving. It worked, and she's healthy! Sample size of 1, but it felt like kind of a nice way to commit to a family and get in the proper head space anyways.
I was reading somewhere Bob Marley had 12 acknowledged children so for him it wasn’t a problem. I wonder how his smoking affected his his offspring though
> We performed a literature search using PubMed®/MEDLINE® to identify relevant studies of the effects of cannabis on male fertility. Relevant studies were identified and reviewed.
Every single one of those is in your drinking water, most of them are in your food. It's even worse if you live coastal on salt water where they recycle water often. No government attempts to remove these. This is the reason you need water filtration or pay for the giant water bottles. Also the reason why many countries don't even bother trying to make clean water. Dont drink the water in Mexico etcetc.
137 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 229 ms ] threadHowever, isn't it generally accepted that smoking cigarettes decreases sperm count? Reading the paper now, but wonder if they were able to control for marijuana users who also consume tobacco.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Socialists believe society exists to support everyone, not just white collar knowledge workers. The kid working long hours to ensure you have sandwiches in your microkitchen deserves a living wage too.
The landlord who provides nothing to society and just gets wealthier by virtue of being already wealthy is the one socialists have a problem with.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
What you're describing is just the capital class playing the capitalist system without actually pursuing socialist policy.
The haut bourgeoisie are, by and large, not socialists, but capitalists in the ideological as well as the class sense.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: your account seems to have been using HN exclusively for this. That's not allowed here, so I've banned it. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
"..future socialists will adjust accordingly and promulgate the slacker gene..."
Um.
https://pathfertility.com/how-does-alcohol-affect-male-ferti...
So I don't get your point?
> 5 drinks/week
This makes me wonder strongly what you would consider a significant amount of alcohol consumption, because 5 drinks/week seems like a huge amount to me already.
If you drink here, you're probably an alcoholic. Even if most don't think they are.
Hey man, if those are things you want, there are much easier ways which the government isn't clamping down on! You have my full support!
The reason why so much research is just coming out now is because it was illegal to study the plant. So it's kind of backwards to say the fertility or any other non-obvious effects inspired criminalization as no science was done until it became legal enough to study.
(1) https://www.statista.com/statistics/262961/countries-with-th...
> Current research suggests that cannabis may negatively impact male fertility. Further studies are needed to validate that robust findings in animal models will carry over into human experience.
My takeaway: if you are having trouble reproducing, and/or your doctor finds some anomalies in a full fertility workup, you may want to talk about your marijuana use with them. That's about it.
The strongest evidence of cannabis induced alterations in male fertility is in the category of semen parameters. Research supports a role for cannabis in reducing sperm count and concentration, inducing abnormalities in sperm morphology, reducing sperm motility and viability, and inhibiting capacitation and fertilizing capacity. Animal models demonstrate a role for cannabis in testicular atrophy, and reduced libido and sexual function but to our knowledge these results have not yet been replicated in human studies.
"These results" clearly refers to the animal model studies they mention later, so that caveat does not apply to the "strongest evidence" they lead with, about sperm motility and viability, etc. At least not to judge by the abstract.
You should discuss all use of non-prescribed drugs with your doctor on a routine basis.
There was a whole section of my application regarding cannabis usage. I provided my medical rec. There was a question about seeing a psychiatrist regarding cannabis usage (no). No questions about consumption method. My premium was that of the quoted non-tobacco premium, so I don't think it was affected at all.
I agree, but the unfortunate fact is that it's not just Norway where you are one mistake away from being ratted out. General rules of thumb in this case should serve the individual. If you are very scared of drug interactions, you can just as easily find this information online.
However, in the case of the GP comment about Norway -- if there are legal ramifications, then I suppose this becomes a more complex issue to navigate. Though, if "socially unacceptable" drugs and their usages were not so stigmatized, this wouldn't be an issue either.
One can see something like this in the US a bit. There is a somewhat rare condition called CHS (Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome) where chronic, long-term users of cannabinoid products develop a condition similar to Cyclical Vomiting Syndrome. For ER professionals, telling the difference between the two (and other GI issues) can be extremely difficult -- especially if the patient does not disclose their usage of cannabinoid products. Some ERs are starting to drug test patients exhibiting symptoms of CHS/CVS to help in the diagnostic process, so they do not have to rely on patient honesty.
The people decided that jail was a counterproductive public policy measure and the people decided that the supply chain could be controlled to protect consumers.
This concept will likely to be extended to most of the schedule, a new framework is necessary as prohibition is being repealed, again.
Sometimes it’s just easy to imagine that a bunch of people voted for it.
Since your understanding of marijuana usage seems limited to recreational usage and you pejoratively call the consumers "potheads", I'd suggest you turn to the scientific literature, conclusively applied as policy in a growing number of countries, and confront your views to what you'd read.
I initially read that as a side effect of not smoking weed anymore.
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THC-O-acetate
I smoke about 6 to 12 times per year, mostly THC/CBD (Dutch weed), sometimes CBD only (specifically, weed from Switzerland).
Dutch weed: 3 to 5 puffs and I'm fine. Smoking half a joint or more is definitely overdosing it, feeling cold and uncontrollable tremors can occur.
Swiss weed: I smoke half a joint.
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7442038/
besides given how long we have been consuming alcohol throughout our history, i think its effects are largely understood. we do not know this about cannabis
Cannabis is one of the oldest cultivated plants in human history (1). It was smoked for pleasure and religiously long before Christianity became a religion.
I wonder, do you dilute your glass of red wine before drinking it? The ancient Greeks diluted their wine with 25% wine and 75% water. They also viewed anyone who didn't as a barbarian and drunkard (2).
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_cannabis#:~:text=Ca....
2) https://www.worldhistory.org/article/944/wine-in-the-ancient...
Not "vape", with juice.
Heat, and inhale.
- Cancer
- Weight gain (alcohol is more calorie dense than sugar)
- Birth defects
- Drunk driving: 10K deaths a year
- Violence / sexual violence
- Overdosing
- Withdrawal can cause death
- Did you know date rape drugs wouldn't work without alcohol? (2) It's only the combination with alcohol that causes the victim to pass out.
If you actually look at how alcohol has an impact on the body, it's effectively a poison. It has no medical benefits and only consequences. The whole red wine thing has nothing to do with alcohol but some of the enzymes in red wine specifically. Just drink grape juice instead.
I really don't care if you give yourself cancer. That's a personal decision but consumption of alcohol leads to so much crime and impact on others. Weed not so much. As a society, we've made a decision to tolerate it but it's still there.
1. https://drugabuse.com/blog/marijuana-vs-alcohol/
2. https://www.drugs.com/illicit/ghb.html
When my cousin stopped cold turkey, his speech/thoughts pace was a solid 50% up. It was surreal.
How does this affect fertility?
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat-based_contraception
It just might be that BM was having a lot more sex than the average guy.
Probability alone would account for 12 (or 22) children.
The rate he went through groupies I would expect 100+
So this is one of those "in mice" FUD pieces, and probably enough THC by weight to kill a horse. Trust the "science" (tm).
Why is this presented as new research?
That's very weak in my books. Cannabis is an aphrodisiac. If they found a small effect, it's something else.
What is that something else?:
https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/endocrine/ind...
Every single one of those is in your drinking water, most of them are in your food. It's even worse if you live coastal on salt water where they recycle water often. No government attempts to remove these. This is the reason you need water filtration or pay for the giant water bottles. Also the reason why many countries don't even bother trying to make clean water. Dont drink the water in Mexico etcetc.