>About half of those deaths were in individuals with an underlying complex disability with high health-care needs, such as tube feeding or assistance with breathing.
In the US, 340 children under 17 have died from Covid. Total.
During the same period, 187 have died from the flu, and over 51,000 children have died from all causes:
I will say, requiring 12 year olds to have a vaccine passport to enter public places (as is the case in much of Western Europe) is as cyberpunk-dystopian as things get, given the hospitalization numbers. A clear result of lobbying.
Even having it for adults is quite dystopian to me! If the vaccine is voluntary then businesses should not force others to have it.
Edit: I’d also add of course government entities or government-owned institutions such as schools! I’ve heard that some public high schools in California will require a vaccination card!, which, in my opinion, is quite extreme.
Fair enough, but couldn’t a ban on people who do not have the vaccine be considered as discrimination ? Since when does an ice cream shop ask you if you already had your flu shot ?
Discrimination by itself is perfectly legal. I can refuse to do business with redheads, or vegans, or people whose name is Bob. Discrimination based on certain specific categories is illegal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group
Yes, but I'd consider it extreme for businesses and other entities who do not need that personal information ask for it, I also have some sort of vaccination record but I rarely take it out or show it to someone.
> I’ve heard that some public high schools in California will require a vaccination card!, which, in my opinion, is quite extreme.
Do you have children? Public schools have had vaccination requirements going back to the middle of the 19th Century. If you live in California, starting before kindegarten students are required to be vaccinated against polio, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, varicella, Haemophilus influenzae, measles, mumps, and rubella. They also recommend Hep B and meningococcal vaccines but the latter are only required for college students.
This is true in most of the civilized world because vaccines have changed those diseases from something my parents' generation knew as the reason why the neighbor kid died or was crippled for life to something you learn about in history class.
> Do you have children? Public schools have had vaccination requirements going back to the middle of the 19th Century.
No, I’m a teenager. I didn’t know vaccination requirements were that strict/common. I vaguely remember being asked about it maybe in elementary school but right now I’m in high school and I wasn’t asked any of that to enter (for context, I go to a private high school in Mexico).
This might be of interest: note that the first U.S. government vaccine mandate was in 1777, which George Washington required smallpox inoculation for the soldiers, and the first school mandate was in 1855:
I would suspect that you would probably have heard about this in a public school and it's also possible that this was handled by your parents without you being aware of it. It's very routine here — my son would have no idea this had happened since his doctor's office sends the records directly to the school nurse.
There was a few centuries of experience with smallpox inoculations in China when the Europeans adopted the practice so it was known that the cases produced that way would be less severe on average — something like an order of magnitude fewer people dying from inoculation than contracting it naturally.
There's an interesting chart here showing what that looked like in Boston with the death rate falling off as inoculations picked up in the 1700s and then significantly dropping when the first vaccines were used in 1800:
My wife's an AP biology teacher so we've talked about this a fair amount over the years since she's found the history is often a good hook for students.
If you want another interesting bit of history, the Balmis expedition in 1803 is fascinating, too. Smallpox was a huge problem in the New World so Jenner's discovery that cowpox protected against smallpox was of enormous interest but they didn't have an easy way to transport since the trip took longer than the 10-12 days someone would be contagious.
They ended up taking a 22 orphans and infecting them with cowpox two at a time using a sample of the pus from the previous pair, which worked well enough to reach Mexico via the Canary Islands and Puerto Rico, and then from Mexico they repeated the process with 25 new orphans all the way to the Philippines.
Yeah, that one hit me with a nice case of culture shock, too — imagine going to a modern IRB saying you wanted to try an new experimental treatment on poor kids and getting the response “great idea, they should be grateful for the food!”
The whole "or a negative test" thing is clearly going away. It was added to make the pill easier to swallow at first; but governments (again, at least in Western Europe) seem to be getting a bit desperate to increase vaccination rates, and are making tests very very cost prohibitive (50€ per test, and you need a new test every 2-3 days), and are likely to remove that option altogether at some point. A pretty obvious slippery slope in hindsight: governments never let a crisis go to waste.
I don't know anything about this, can someone provide context on why this post is getting so downvoted, the sources they are providing look very reliable
Death is only one measure of difficulty. Long COVID is real and it affects kids too. It's estimated [1] that millions have symptoms that have lasted many months (1 out of 3 infected)
because kids not dying of covid misses the point, they can still spread it, plus those kids that have complex underlying conditions due need the vaccine and this would allow them to get it.
How do these sources support vaccination being "murderous"? Saying it's only a bit worse than the flu is also a bit odd in this context, given the CDC recommends flu vaccinations for "everyone ages six months and older"? "reliable sources" should also support the argument being made.
Calling this vaccine "murderous" should earn plenty of downvotes, given that it has killed precisely no one despite a few hundred millions doses going out so far.
You are asserting a massive conspiracy that would involve countless doctors, researchers, public health officials and virtually the entirely of the media across a hundred different countries.
And the evidence you provide is a website I could make in a weekend.
Anyone who gets COVID and is either hospitalized or dies before/within 14 days of the second shot goes in the "unvaccinated" bucket, with no consideration for whether they were recently vaccinated.
They obviously track days since vaccination to be able to filter that 14 day period out, yet I haven't seen any public disclosures of any data.
It's suspicious in the same way that natural immunity efficacy studies were basically off-limits until the Israeli data publication.
To be fair, I think it's less about control than about naked populism- vaccine mandates, and many other covid measures are wildly popular. It's basically mob rule. Liberal democracy is supposed to have built in protections for this, but when they get ignored, all bets are off. Right wing populists ignoring liberal democratic norms was the big fear a few years ago, and now it has swung far to the left.
There is some element of control as you say, but I think it's more in the "show you're a member of our religion" sense than in the government or corporate control sense. This is a war people are waging on themselves.
Who is in charge of our governments and corporations? If it's comprised of the people attempting to make it about their religious zeal on this subject, then I consider that no different than it being a government or corporation ploy for more power.
Because at the end of the day, it's the biggest stakeholders in a corporation that will love the power to force people out of having bread if they don't comply with increasingly invasive protocols.
> Imagine a boot stamping on a human face forever?
It's way worse than a power grab. People always are more comfortable believing there is some "other" that is responsible for evil, and all we have to do is defeat them. There isn't, it's us
Consider Australia, specifically Victoria, where Daniel Andrews and his team have been lying out of their teeth about "reopening" and "lifting restrictions" even though despite hitting vaccination numbers in excess of what Fauci and other scientists and administrative professionals were were saying would be required. They've been saying 60-70 percent to achieve herd immunity and cause things to be endemic, yet Daniel Andrews of Victoria wants a "vaccinated economy" through 2023, with unvaccinated people completely barred from normal life.
"Unvaccinated Victorians to be banned from venues including bookshops, pubs and football matches until at least 2023, while similar restrictions in NSW lift in December"
This excellent piece from The Atlantic is worth the read:
This is about power, not public health. There's a reason they never include antibodies in their discussions, even though antibodies are shown to be as effective as Pfizer against reinfection or breakthrough cases. Sources:
"Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime"
And in America at least, where some politicians and administrative officials would love to exercise power like Daniel Andrews and his posse are keen on doing, we know now that the vast majority of the country has antibodies from one source or another, of high quality against known strains. Over 80% as of May!
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
This is a much higher number for considering the pandemic "over" or endemic than what Fauci was saying we needed over the last year. Why the failure to make the admission about antibodies? Because it's about power. And you can look through my comment history to see even more examples of the tyrannical things that have been happening down under. Here are examples for your convenience:
They're going to force people who quarantine at home (rather than a government-mandated quarantine "hotel" with guards) to install and use an app. Facial recognition, GPS tracking in your own home. And it will randomly ping you, and if you don't respond within 15 minutes it'll send the police to your house to conduct an in-person quarantine check. Source:
Just two quick thoughts. First, the 60-70% went out the window with Delta. Second, Australia has a well-documented history of being an unusually heavy-handed democracy.
If you don't take the most repressive Western regime as your starting point, you may find a much more measured variation of responses, and most of those measures have now been abandoned. The last I checked, proponents of authoritarianism don't usually just drop their repressive policies, yet that is the crystal clear pattern we observe throughout the developed world.
You just proved I'm right. In your other comment, you said "is 6 more months fine?"
And I said that they'll always find reasons to extend their magical new powers. And yet here we are, someone doing that for them by buying into the strain fear-mongering DESPITE the fact that the antibodies from past covid or from vaccination are effective against Delta. Source again:
And with both populations having antibodies (from any source) in large excess of Fauci's 60-70 percent estimate, pegged as of May 2021 at over 80% of the population...it's time to end the mandates. Source again:
I'm not going to mince words over which Western European country may be more polite than Australia as if that detracts from my arguments about what's happening. Australia is turning into a dictatorship at this rate. That is not hyperbole. Look at the links I shared more closely. This is in a western democracy, and we have no shortage of "useful fools" who will gladly parrot the same rhetoric in America or Canada or Europe if they can.
There is a possibility it will get worse, unless the people of Australia and New Zealand choose to be very brave. Non-violence across the board, but there needs to be a massive outpouring before it's too late. Before the authorities just bribe the college students with free stuff - students don't have a long enough memory to see the risks of what is happening. Therefore the adults and the parents will need to be very brave and stand against the rhetoric.
The way the mass media tries to pit "unvaxxed vs vaxxed" and tries to label the unvaxxed is so dishonest, and it will prime inexperienced minds (who are already overly-zealous due to programming and doom-scrolling) to just go with whatever the State says. History does not bode well if this happens.
I do not know the specific end. History does not give me comfort on this subject though. Someone else asked me the same question you did on my comment though, and I responded with links, please take a look at that response since it's a sizable one with plenty of sourced claims in it. If you will only read it if I share the same information in a reply here as well, do let me know and I'm happy to do so! I just want to redundant information wherever possible in a comment tree.
And if the vaccine requirements end in 6 months, like the mask mandates and most other measures did where I live several months ago, will you take that as sufficient evidence that there is not a massive conspiracy?
Because I recall many voices saying that masking would never end, lockdowns would go on forever, and other very dramatic things, all as supposed proof that some shadowy figures were trying to "control" us. Yet, as conditions changed, those policies changed, and control was demonstrable and undeniably loosened (to the dismay of those shadowy figures, I'm sure).
I've heard "two more weeks" and "a few more months" multiple times now. And in fact, in the case of the extremely strict lockdown processes in Australia, they've extended them before.
If you peg it to # of cases rather than how many people have antibodies (FROM ANY SOURCE, given the links I provided as evidence on the efficacy of antibodies from past infection)...you can arbitrarily keep delaying the lockdowns and finding new justifications for more and more invasive processes.
No, no more six months. Based on what the scientists were saying for the entire last year about antibodies for 60 to 70 percent of the population resulting in endemic covid, Victoria and the broader USA have exceeded that. I haven't looked into western European countries yet to see what their antibody counts are estimated to be, but if they have similar antibody levels (from vaccination OR past infection), then these mandates should be dismissed immediately.
If this and not acknowledging natural immunity doesn't show people at this point it's not about saving lives and stopping the spread then I don't know what will.
Fauci is dragging his feet because it's about power. The evidence is painting a very different picture from what power-hungry commentators on the internet or mass media are trying to say. If they admitted something about antibodies from past infection or the state of antibodies in the broader American population, they would have to admit that on their own terms they should no longer have any power or influence over the public anymore. Sources:
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
"Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot"
The picture that emerges is clear for anyone looking at just the evidence.
Edited statement: Why is my comment flagged? I sourced the claims and am throwing down the gauntlet expecting a legitimate challenge on the contention. But instead, even though this comment got many upvotes for the time it was posted...it got flagged? We should really make flagging a public thing to higher-karma users so we can see who is being a dishonorable netizen here.
That's interesting -- can you cite an example of when there was a national US flu vaccine mandate? What about a local mandate?
IIRC, there have not been federal or local government flu mandates although there were local government mandates for things like smallpox in school kids (but not for the entire population).
For example, here is a 2009 policy position from OSHA saying that it does not mandate flu vaccines[1]:
However, although OSHA does not specifically require employees to take the vaccines, an employer may do so.
But if I missed an example of a historical flu mandate, I'd love to hear it.
Did I mention OSHA? I gather you don't like the particular policy, but that wasn't my point and I didn't know what context GP was concerned about. Other people were talking about Europe.
Also, for the OSHA rules, they allow for a testing.
I did a very rudimentary google search and see that the federal government requires a bunch of vaccines including influenza and Covid-19[1] for obtaining a visa. The CDC publishes a "menu" of state hospital vaccination laws[2]. Those sound like they both clearly fit "many contexts in the US that required a flu vaccine" the parent mentioned.
The risks of Covid to children is, as you say, extremely low. The risk of the Pfizer vaccine to children is even lower.
Right now those "individuals with an underlying complex disability" are not allowed to get vaccinated because the vaccine has not been approved for young children, even with an emergency use authorization.
I think the parents of children with disabilities that make Covid more potentially dangerous for them ought to be allowed to vaccinate their child. Do you disagree?
I think we're at the point where public mandates are doing more harm than good. I am disappointed that there are so many people pushing back against simple approval of an effective vaccine because they are worried about an unnecessary mandate being imposed.
Indeed. Even this panel discussed that they must keep in mind that what they are voting on is whether to release it for optional use not mandatory use. Unfortunately they have no bearing on whether the government bodies decide to mandate it.
kids tend not to die from covid, but they can spread it, this is in fact a point the article makes. The point of the vaccine for kids is it would primarily prevent spread of covid to other more vulnerable people, but it would also protect some kids who were vulnerable to do underlying conditions.
Unfortunately so does vaccinated people (some studies says it lower the transmission rate, others say they don't). The vaccines are not the firebreak that people think they are.
while it's true that vaccinated people can transmit it, and it has been suggested that it doesn't lower transmission rate during the period where they are contagious, they prevent the vast majority of people from being contagious in the first place, meaning yes they are 100% the firebreak that people think they are, you are being willfully ignorant to think they aren't.
What name calling though?
There is exactly one word in his post that even qualifies as an unsubstantiated value judgement: "disgusting". It's appeared in 12,263 comments.
If Nature and CDC are flamebait, we're done man, we're just done.
The comment would have been much better without the first sentence, which was obvious flamebait. We've already had enough vaccine flamewars and covid flamewars to last a lifetime.
It certainly reads very oddly. But from the linked article, it seems risk of myocarditis is what researchers were looking at when they did that modeling...
"In older boys and young men, the vaccine has been linked to myocarditis. It has occurred in somewhere around 1 in 10,000 boys and men between the ages of 16 and 19 who received a second dose, though estimates of the risk vary."
Some studies suggest that the risk of myocarditis/pericarditis among vaccinated young boys is higher than their risk of hospitalization due to Covid. The fact that this is even a possibility, and the data on it is changing so rapidly, should give everyone pause and ask what's really going on. Is it for the public good, or is it for pharma profits?
That is at odds with previous studies, assumes you’re looking at a very short time horizon for getting Covid and negating beyond that entirely, and ignores that myocarditis is treatable as a side effect.
Given there’s a pandemic going on that’s resulted in massive casualties, assuming this is only being done for pharma profits doesn’t pass Occam’s razor.
How does it not pass Occam's razor? A large pharma corp, known for sacrificing morals in the name of profit in the past[1], wouldn't do it again?
The pandemic has indeed caused casualties, but casualties amongst the population in question here (children and teens) is very low. Pfizer's own 6 month efficacy study shows total deaths amongst vaccinated and unvaccinated are statistically insignificant, with unvaxxed dying more of covid, and vaxxed dying slightly more of myocarditis and other heart-related issues[2].
Anyone wanting to do this doesn't need to know someone else's choices except by asking in private. Feel free to distance yourself from anyone not meeting your conditions. Whereas in general public, wear a mask and social distance.
Imposing these "rights" onto the general public is Nanny State hall monitoring on steroids, enacted and enforced by people who...we no longer have any reason to trust. Why can't we trust them? Because their entire schpiel over the last year about getting to herd immunity and endemic covid has gone out the window as of late. They are dragging their feet on acknowledging reality. Here's sources explaining why:
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
"Unvaccinated Victorians to be banned from venues including bookshops, pubs and football matches until at least 2023, while similar restrictions in NSW lift in December"
Pair that with the totalitarian measures enacted in Australia over the last 1.5 years in general (see my comment history). It's time to stop exaggerating the role that past vaccine requirements had when working in hospitals or in specific settings like that. This is much more than that, entailing a complete subversion of individual rights.
Someone supporting these types of measures has bought into the mass media kool-aid pitting "vaxxed vs unvaxxed" which is now dehumanizing a subset of the population so much so that useful fools are not seeing the writing on the wall when a rich politician is saying on absolutely zero basis who can and cannot be included in normal society.
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
"Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot"
When all the facts are considered, it's blatantly clear that these mandates serve no real purpose anymore ON THE TERMS THESE VERY PEOPLE WERE ESTABLISHING. Over the last year, we heard about 60 to 70 percent being the marker for herd immunity and endemic covid. We've reached those numbers through antibodies (regardless of source) already. For months now. Where's the admission from Fauci and Daniel Andrews that their newfound limelight and powers are no longer necessary?
> Don't lie or exaggerate. We do not have "vaccine or fuck off." This has never been done.
Here's NY's.
"Children attending day care and pre-K through 12thgrade in New York State must receive all required doses of vaccines on the recommended schedule in order to attend or remain in school. This is true unless they have a valid medical exemption to immunization. This includes all public, private, and religious schools. A medical exemption is allowed when a child has a medical condition that prevents them from receiving a vaccine. There are no nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine requirements in NYS."
You can tell me all about Australia's supposedly totalitarian setup, but I've got a bunch of Australian relatives who wouldn't willingly trade places with me. My grandma hasn't had to wear a mask the whole time; my uncle just had to for a couple days. My American kids are in their second year of masking at school; one of these things looks like a dystopian movie, but it's not Australia.
(I'll take the Aussie per-capita death rate over the US one, too.)
Your anecdotes about your relatives in Australia are duly noted but disregarded as irrelevant, because it's anecdotes. I have family in Australia too, saying the complete opposite to you. Do you accept that? If not, then I have no reason to accept your anecdotes.
And you'd take the Australian per-capita death rate over the US...along with their tyranny? That's not worth the cost, because in the end something much much worse emerges. Have you seen any of these links yet? Here's what's actually happening in Australia.
They're going to force people who quarantine at home (rather than a government-mandated quarantine "hotel" with guards) to install and use an app. Facial recognition, GPS tracking in your own home. And it will randomly ping you, and if you don't respond within 15 minutes it'll send the police to your house to conduct an in-person quarantine check. Source:
“NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian yesterday announced freedoms for fully vaccinated people once 70% of the state’s eligible population are double dosed. These include being able to go to hospitality venues, hairdressers and gyms, and have five people to your home.”
They can arbitrarily lock you in your apartment building for up to weeks, no one allowed to leave. Source:
Also to address the original point more specifically and directly:
Your links to justify "vaccine or fuck off" as a historical precedent are weak. Nobody is really opposed to requirements for certain schools or working in a hospital with sick people near by. That is a wild departure from what we are seeing in Australia and the USA with the Biden administration attempting to force this onto corporations across the board and Victoria Australia straight up banning "unvaccinated" people from normal life regardless of antibodies. What we see now is people creating a new religion out of their zeal for enforcing conformity when the evidence shows that it's pointless to have that expectation. Look at the links I gave you previously: The antibodies the vast majority of these populations have are effective regardless of where they came from. Both populations have antibodies in far excess to what Fauci and other public servants deemed necessary for ending covid.
If you cannot participate in normal life because of the covid vaccination,, that is a complete departure from what we've done in the USA. And for travel too - I've traveled abroad before and was never expected to provide vaccination records at all. If it was about health, it'd be about antibodies and suspending these mandates immediately once the threshold has been reached. That threshold has been reached since this summer.
Almost all of those can be very bad for children. Covid, not so much. There isn't a reason to take the vaccine if you are under 30. And none of you are under 18
As far as I know, Polio is similar to Covid. I believe it is far less contagious compared to Covid. Can you help me understand why Polio is worse than Covid?
Do you want to live in temperature-controlled rooms, monitored by the government to ensure that no transmissible diseases are around?
You may have a knee-jerk reaction to my question, thinking it has no basis in reality. Meanwhile, in Australia:
They're going to force people who quarantine at home (rather than a government-mandated quarantine "hotel" with guards) to install and use an app. Facial recognition, GPS tracking in your own home. And it will randomly ping you, and if you don't respond within 15 minutes it'll send the police to your house to conduct an in-person quarantine check. Source:
It's not far off from your premise that a totalitarian regime would make this control the norm in the name of "don't be a vector of transmissible diseases."
The government could deliver meals to you! And let you out for exercise once a day as long as you stay within a few miles of your box! Does this still sound delusional? Those are effectively the terms that have already been imposed on people in Australia over the last year. They can arbitrarily lock you in your apartment building for up to weeks, no one allowed to leave. Sources:
"For six days, only one person from a household will be allowed to leave home each day, and only for essential reasons, authorities said. Schools, universities, cafes and restaurants are closed, weddings and funerals are banned and mask-wearing is mandatory.
“We want to go hard, go early, but get out of it as quickly as we can,” State Premier Steven Marshall said of the measures."
This is from last year by the way. They went hard but didn't get out of it at all judging by what's still the policy in Australia. And over the last year they still had their requirement about not leaving far from your box (oops I mean house) when exercising. Nobody could leave certain cities, even.
These examples are just scratching the surface of why it's naive to formulate your worldview based on a moral righteousness about "don't be a vector for disease." It's dangerous rhetoric even if it feels good in online posting to be "better" than others this way. Don't buy into the dishonest media narrative about "vaxxed vs unvaxxed."
This is called slippery slope argument. George Washington ordered his troops to be vaccinated. It's been the case for centuries and pretty much why a lot of us are alive now.
There is a mountain of links provided in recent comments I made, showing that it's happening in Australia and that some people are clamoring for a two-tier society. Victoria's premier is straight up saying he wants a "vaccinated economy" through 2023 - effectively banning anyone who doesn't partake, regardless of antibodies, from normal life.
That is not a slippery slope. That is reality staring you in the face. Vaccines are great. These mandates are idiotic for reasons I've thoroughly described and nobody has yet addressed the contentions on their own merit.
I don't care if George Washington in a time of war against the superpower of the time made a desperate gambit against smallpox infection in literal military conflict. None of that changes the reality of things - the vast majority of both countries have antibodies from one source or another. Those antibodies are known to be effective at preventing Delta, with breakthrough cases being rare.
Any mandates that are excluding someone from society or employment (outside of hospitals) are a mistake. We simply don't need them. We have already reached far beyond the 60-70 percent threshold Fauci and other public servants were saying would be required for herd immunity / endemic covid.
Your response is basically just justifying everything in Australia, the tyrannical overreach happening in other countries (including some would say in the USA with the recent Biden mandate on corporations). These things are NOT NECESSARY, on the very terms established by Fauci and co over the entire last year.
So explain in more detail how it's a slippery slope when (per all the links I've shared about Australia). Or explain to me why these public servants are ignoring reality and not making admissions about antibodies.
It's rather strange when someone can see all these links and their only real response is to try to justify it by calling out some rhetorical fallacy even though there wasn't one. What is this, high school debate class? I sourced my claims about what is literally happening down under, and it's not a slippery slope to understand history or to make noise when the alarm bells are going off.
That's not correct. If it were true then there would not be high case numbers in countries with very high vaccination rates, but there are.
UK data shows that vaccinated people are more likely to get COVID than unvaccinated people at this point. You cannot argue that vaccination makes you less likely to catch it with figures like that - it's just a made up talking point to try and justify deeply unwise and unethical mandates.
"But you can't be a vector of transmissible diseases" what exactly did you not understand about your own statement? Are you allowed to be a vector or not?
The patient’s consent is given voluntarily;
After they have been fully informed of the risks and consequences; and
they possess the mental capacity required to understand and make informed decisions.
Special cases that do not require consent:
A minor;
In labor;
Mentally ill or disabled;
Under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or prescription medication;
In a partially conscious state; and/or
Experiencing great stress or pain at the time of consent.
If people do or don't want to get vaccinated, that's up to them. But with kids it's harder because parents expect a veto. Reddit is full of adults whose parents have gone nuts because they choose to get vaccinated. Imagine the same with under 18s. So good luck with that...
I'm firmly in the "wait and see" group with my kids for two reasons.
The FDA says that the side effects in children are comparable with the "16 to 25 years" age group, which is the age group that has the highest incidents of myocarditis with both mRNA vaccines.
The sample size was too small to detect myocarditis according to the FDA, so people who are eager to vaccinate their children can provide that data set pretty quickly.
Also the “Long-term safety of COVID-19 vaccine in participants 5 to <12 years of age will be studied in 5 post-authorization safety studies.” Again, I'm choosing not allow my children to be a data point in that study.
The mandates are not necessary anymore, certainly not in America or in Australia. The reason I say that is because the number of people with antibodies which prevent reinfection or most breakthrough cases, is now in major excess of what Fauci and other public servants have been saying would achieve endemic covid / herd immunity for the last year. Sources:
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
Quote from article: “ The analysts said that while that suggests the vaccine might trigger slightly more myocarditis-related hospitalizations in boys than Covid-19 hospitalizations it would prevent in the same population, the benefits still might outweigh the risks”
That's a deliberately misleading partial quote; leaving off the explanation:
", given that Covid cases that require hospitalization are generally more severe than myocarditis cases. The FDA also said that its estimate of myocarditis risk was “conservative,” meaning that the risk for children in the 5 to 11 age group might be lower."
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 208 ms ] threadhttps://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w >the studies found that COVID-19 caused 25 deaths in that age group between March 2020 and February 2021.
>About half of those deaths were in individuals with an underlying complex disability with high health-care needs, such as tube feeding or assistance with breathing.
In the US, 340 children under 17 have died from Covid. Total.
During the same period, 187 have died from the flu, and over 51,000 children have died from all causes:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Se...
Edit: I’d also add of course government entities or government-owned institutions such as schools! I’ve heard that some public high schools in California will require a vaccination card!, which, in my opinion, is quite extreme.
Some vaccines confer life time immunity and others reduce severity.
A lot of hyperbole for something that’s been here for the better part of a century.
Do you have children? Public schools have had vaccination requirements going back to the middle of the 19th Century. If you live in California, starting before kindegarten students are required to be vaccinated against polio, diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, varicella, Haemophilus influenzae, measles, mumps, and rubella. They also recommend Hep B and meningococcal vaccines but the latter are only required for college students.
https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/
This is true in most of the civilized world because vaccines have changed those diseases from something my parents' generation knew as the reason why the neighbor kid died or was crippled for life to something you learn about in history class.
No, I’m a teenager. I didn’t know vaccination requirements were that strict/common. I vaguely remember being asked about it maybe in elementary school but right now I’m in high school and I wasn’t asked any of that to enter (for context, I go to a private high school in Mexico).
https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/all
I would suspect that you would probably have heard about this in a public school and it's also possible that this was handled by your parents without you being aware of it. It's very routine here — my son would have no idea this had happened since his doctor's office sends the records directly to the school nurse.
There's an interesting chart here showing what that looked like in Boston with the death rate falling off as inoculations picked up in the 1700s and then significantly dropping when the first vaccines were used in 1800:
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/special-edition-on-infect...
If you want another interesting bit of history, the Balmis expedition in 1803 is fascinating, too. Smallpox was a huge problem in the New World so Jenner's discovery that cowpox protected against smallpox was of enormous interest but they didn't have an easy way to transport since the trip took longer than the 10-12 days someone would be contagious.
They ended up taking a 22 orphans and infecting them with cowpox two at a time using a sample of the pus from the previous pair, which worked well enough to reach Mexico via the Canary Islands and Puerto Rico, and then from Mexico they repeated the process with 25 new orphans all the way to the Philippines.
https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/41/9/1285/278013
[1] https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo...
go ahead and flag this you liars
And the evidence you provide is a website I could make in a weekend.
There's no "conspiracy" needed:
Anyone who gets COVID and is either hospitalized or dies before/within 14 days of the second shot goes in the "unvaccinated" bucket, with no consideration for whether they were recently vaccinated.
They obviously track days since vaccination to be able to filter that 14 day period out, yet I haven't seen any public disclosures of any data.
It's suspicious in the same way that natural immunity efficacy studies were basically off-limits until the Israeli data publication.
There is some element of control as you say, but I think it's more in the "show you're a member of our religion" sense than in the government or corporate control sense. This is a war people are waging on themselves.
Because at the end of the day, it's the biggest stakeholders in a corporation that will love the power to force people out of having bread if they don't comply with increasingly invasive protocols.
What's the quote about abusive power done on behalf of the abused, and not ever having a reason to stop?
It's way worse than a power grab. People always are more comfortable believing there is some "other" that is responsible for evil, and all we have to do is defeat them. There isn't, it's us
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/24/austr...
"Unvaccinated Victorians to be banned from venues including bookshops, pubs and football matches until at least 2023, while similar restrictions in NSW lift in December"
This excellent piece from The Atlantic is worth the read:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-a...
This is about power, not public health. There's a reason they never include antibodies in their discussions, even though antibodies are shown to be as effective as Pfizer against reinfection or breakthrough cases. Sources:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...
And those antibodies are slated to last decades:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9
"Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime"
And in America at least, where some politicians and administrative officials would love to exercise power like Daniel Andrews and his posse are keen on doing, we know now that the vast majority of the country has antibodies from one source or another, of high quality against known strains. Over 80% as of May!
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704...
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
This is a much higher number for considering the pandemic "over" or endemic than what Fauci was saying we needed over the last year. Why the failure to make the admission about antibodies? Because it's about power. And you can look through my comment history to see even more examples of the tyrannical things that have been happening down under. Here are examples for your convenience:
They're going to force people who quarantine at home (rather than a government-mandated quarantine "hotel" with guards) to install and use an app. Facial recognition, GPS tracking in your own home. And it will randomly ping you, and if you don't respond within 15 minutes it'll send the police to your house to conduct an in-person quarantine check. Source:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-a...
They're arresting people for making Facebook posts against lockdowns. Source:
If you don't take the most repressive Western regime as your starting point, you may find a much more measured variation of responses, and most of those measures have now been abandoned. The last I checked, proponents of authoritarianism don't usually just drop their repressive policies, yet that is the crystal clear pattern we observe throughout the developed world.
And I said that they'll always find reasons to extend their magical new powers. And yet here we are, someone doing that for them by buying into the strain fear-mongering DESPITE the fact that the antibodies from past covid or from vaccination are effective against Delta. Source again:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...
And with both populations having antibodies (from any source) in large excess of Fauci's 60-70 percent estimate, pegged as of May 2021 at over 80% of the population...it's time to end the mandates. Source again:
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704...
I'm not going to mince words over which Western European country may be more polite than Australia as if that detracts from my arguments about what's happening. Australia is turning into a dictatorship at this rate. That is not hyperbole. Look at the links I shared more closely. This is in a western democracy, and we have no shortage of "useful fools" who will gladly parrot the same rhetoric in America or Canada or Europe if they can.
The way the mass media tries to pit "unvaxxed vs vaxxed" and tries to label the unvaxxed is so dishonest, and it will prime inexperienced minds (who are already overly-zealous due to programming and doom-scrolling) to just go with whatever the State says. History does not bode well if this happens.
Because I recall many voices saying that masking would never end, lockdowns would go on forever, and other very dramatic things, all as supposed proof that some shadowy figures were trying to "control" us. Yet, as conditions changed, those policies changed, and control was demonstrable and undeniably loosened (to the dismay of those shadowy figures, I'm sure).
If you peg it to # of cases rather than how many people have antibodies (FROM ANY SOURCE, given the links I provided as evidence on the efficacy of antibodies from past infection)...you can arbitrarily keep delaying the lockdowns and finding new justifications for more and more invasive processes.
No, no more six months. Based on what the scientists were saying for the entire last year about antibodies for 60 to 70 percent of the population resulting in endemic covid, Victoria and the broader USA have exceeded that. I haven't looked into western European countries yet to see what their antibody counts are estimated to be, but if they have similar antibody levels (from vaccination OR past infection), then these mandates should be dismissed immediately.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9
"Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime"
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704...
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...
"Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot"
The picture that emerges is clear for anyone looking at just the evidence.
Edited statement: Why is my comment flagged? I sourced the claims and am throwing down the gauntlet expecting a legitimate challenge on the contention. But instead, even though this comment got many upvotes for the time it was posted...it got flagged? We should really make flagging a public thing to higher-karma users so we can see who is being a dishonorable netizen here.
Ignoring the fact that one reason we vaccinate is to reduce spread, like our kids grandparents and great-grandparents.
The goal posts will move wherever it's convenient for antivax crowd.
IIRC, there have not been federal or local government flu mandates although there were local government mandates for things like smallpox in school kids (but not for the entire population).
For example, here is a 2009 policy position from OSHA saying that it does not mandate flu vaccines[1]:
However, although OSHA does not specifically require employees to take the vaccines, an employer may do so.
But if I missed an example of a historical flu mandate, I'd love to hear it.
[1] https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/2009-...
Also, for the OSHA rules, they allow for a testing.
[1] https://www.uscis.gov/tools/designated-civil-surgeons/vaccin...
[2] https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/menu-shfluvacclaws.pdf
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
Our kids' grandparents and great-grandparents were vaccinated months ago if they wanted to be.
Right now those "individuals with an underlying complex disability" are not allowed to get vaccinated because the vaccine has not been approved for young children, even with an emergency use authorization.
I think the parents of children with disabilities that make Covid more potentially dangerous for them ought to be allowed to vaccinate their child. Do you disagree?
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
If Nature and CDC are flamebait, we're done man, we're just done.
The comment would have been much better without the first sentence, which was obvious flamebait. We've already had enough vaccine flamewars and covid flamewars to last a lifetime.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-r...
Given there’s a pandemic going on that’s resulted in massive casualties, assuming this is only being done for pharma profits doesn’t pass Occam’s razor.
The pandemic has indeed caused casualties, but casualties amongst the population in question here (children and teens) is very low. Pfizer's own 6 month efficacy study shows total deaths amongst vaccinated and unvaccinated are statistically insignificant, with unvaxxed dying more of covid, and vaxxed dying slightly more of myocarditis and other heart-related issues[2].
[1]: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-...
[2]: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v...
Your link actually doesn't say anything about people dying due to Myocarditis following vaccination. Do you have any other source for that?
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/medrxiv/early/2021/07/28/202...
Here’s a TLDR of cardiac-related deaths in the study:
Arteriosclerosis: 2 vax, 0 unvax
Cardiac arrest: 4 vax, 1 unvax
Cardiac failure: 1 vax, 0 unvax
Hemorrhagic stroke: 0 vax, 1 unvax
As you said, no myocarditis (my bad), but that’s a well-known side effect for younger people, which this study does not target.
And you have the right to say no to any medical procedure
Imposing these "rights" onto the general public is Nanny State hall monitoring on steroids, enacted and enforced by people who...we no longer have any reason to trust. Why can't we trust them? Because their entire schpiel over the last year about getting to herd immunity and endemic covid has gone out the window as of late. They are dragging their feet on acknowledging reality. Here's sources explaining why:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9
"Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime"
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704...
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...
"Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot"
The picture that emerges is clear. These "temporary" mandates no longer have a basis in reality.
And if you say no to the DTaP, HepB, MMR, polio, etc. vaccines, you may be finding a private school to go to in many states.
We've had "vaccine or fuck off" rules in a wide variety of scenarios for decades.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/oct/24/austr...
"Unvaccinated Victorians to be banned from venues including bookshops, pubs and football matches until at least 2023, while similar restrictions in NSW lift in December"
Pair that with the totalitarian measures enacted in Australia over the last 1.5 years in general (see my comment history). It's time to stop exaggerating the role that past vaccine requirements had when working in hospitals or in specific settings like that. This is much more than that, entailing a complete subversion of individual rights.
Someone supporting these types of measures has bought into the mass media kool-aid pitting "vaxxed vs unvaxxed" which is now dehumanizing a subset of the population so much so that useful fools are not seeing the writing on the wall when a rich politician is saying on absolutely zero basis who can and cannot be included in normal society.
Why do I say it's zero basis?
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9
"Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime"
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704...
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...
"Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot"
When all the facts are considered, it's blatantly clear that these mandates serve no real purpose anymore ON THE TERMS THESE VERY PEOPLE WERE ESTABLISHING. Over the last year, we heard about 60 to 70 percent being the marker for herd immunity and endemic covid. We've reached those numbers through antibodies (regardless of source) already. For months now. Where's the admission from Fauci and Daniel Andrews that their newfound limelight and powers are no longer necessary?
Here's NY's.
"Children attending day care and pre-K through 12thgrade in New York State must receive all required doses of vaccines on the recommended schedule in order to attend or remain in school. This is true unless they have a valid medical exemption to immunization. This includes all public, private, and religious schools. A medical exemption is allowed when a child has a medical condition that prevents them from receiving a vaccine. There are no nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine requirements in NYS."
https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/immunization/schools/sc...
More examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i...
You can tell me all about Australia's supposedly totalitarian setup, but I've got a bunch of Australian relatives who wouldn't willingly trade places with me. My grandma hasn't had to wear a mask the whole time; my uncle just had to for a couple days. My American kids are in their second year of masking at school; one of these things looks like a dystopian movie, but it's not Australia.
(I'll take the Aussie per-capita death rate over the US one, too.)
And you'd take the Australian per-capita death rate over the US...along with their tyranny? That's not worth the cost, because in the end something much much worse emerges. Have you seen any of these links yet? Here's what's actually happening in Australia.
They're going to force people who quarantine at home (rather than a government-mandated quarantine "hotel" with guards) to install and use an app. Facial recognition, GPS tracking in your own home. And it will randomly ping you, and if you don't respond within 15 minutes it'll send the police to your house to conduct an in-person quarantine check. Source:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-a...
They're arresting people for making Facebook posts against lockdowns. Source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824
Australia presumes to say how many people can visit your home. Source:
https://theconversation.com/vaccine-passports-are-coming-to-...
“NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian yesterday announced freedoms for fully vaccinated people once 70% of the state’s eligible population are double dosed. These include being able to go to hospitality venues, hairdressers and gyms, and have five people to your home.”
They can arbitrarily lock you in your apartment building for up to weeks, no one allowed to leave. Source:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097
Also to address the original point more specifically and directly:
Your links to justify "vaccine or fuck off" as a historical precedent are weak. Nobody is really opposed to requirements for certain schools or working in a hospital with sick people near by. That is a wild departure from what we are seeing in Australia and the USA with the Biden administration attempting to force this onto corporations across the board and Victoria Australia straight up banning "unvaccinated" people from normal life regardless of antibodies. What we see now is people creating a new religion out of their zeal for enforcing conformity when the evidence shows that it's pointless to have that expectation. Look at the links I gave you previously: The antibodies the vast majority of these populations have are effective regardless of where they came from. Both populations have antibodies in far excess to what Fauci and other public servants deemed necessary for ending covid.
If you cannot participate in normal life because of the covid vaccination,, that is a complete departure from what we've done in the USA. And for travel too - I've traveled abroad before and was never expected to provide vaccination records at all. If it was about health, it'd be about antibodies and suspending these mandates immediately once the threshold has been reached. That threshold has been reached since this summer.
You may have a knee-jerk reaction to my question, thinking it has no basis in reality. Meanwhile, in Australia:
They're going to force people who quarantine at home (rather than a government-mandated quarantine "hotel" with guards) to install and use an app. Facial recognition, GPS tracking in your own home. And it will randomly ping you, and if you don't respond within 15 minutes it'll send the police to your house to conduct an in-person quarantine check. Source:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-a...
It's not far off from your premise that a totalitarian regime would make this control the norm in the name of "don't be a vector of transmissible diseases."
The government could deliver meals to you! And let you out for exercise once a day as long as you stay within a few miles of your box! Does this still sound delusional? Those are effectively the terms that have already been imposed on people in Australia over the last year. They can arbitrarily lock you in your apartment building for up to weeks, no one allowed to leave. Sources:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53316097
https://fortune.com/2020/11/19/south-australia-adelaide-lock...
"For six days, only one person from a household will be allowed to leave home each day, and only for essential reasons, authorities said. Schools, universities, cafes and restaurants are closed, weddings and funerals are banned and mask-wearing is mandatory.
“We want to go hard, go early, but get out of it as quickly as we can,” State Premier Steven Marshall said of the measures."
This is from last year by the way. They went hard but didn't get out of it at all judging by what's still the policy in Australia. And over the last year they still had their requirement about not leaving far from your box (oops I mean house) when exercising. Nobody could leave certain cities, even.
These examples are just scratching the surface of why it's naive to formulate your worldview based on a moral righteousness about "don't be a vector for disease." It's dangerous rhetoric even if it feels good in online posting to be "better" than others this way. Don't buy into the dishonest media narrative about "vaxxed vs unvaxxed."
That is not a slippery slope. That is reality staring you in the face. Vaccines are great. These mandates are idiotic for reasons I've thoroughly described and nobody has yet addressed the contentions on their own merit.
I don't care if George Washington in a time of war against the superpower of the time made a desperate gambit against smallpox infection in literal military conflict. None of that changes the reality of things - the vast majority of both countries have antibodies from one source or another. Those antibodies are known to be effective at preventing Delta, with breakthrough cases being rare.
Any mandates that are excluding someone from society or employment (outside of hospitals) are a mistake. We simply don't need them. We have already reached far beyond the 60-70 percent threshold Fauci and other public servants were saying would be required for herd immunity / endemic covid.
Your response is basically just justifying everything in Australia, the tyrannical overreach happening in other countries (including some would say in the USA with the recent Biden mandate on corporations). These things are NOT NECESSARY, on the very terms established by Fauci and co over the entire last year.
So explain in more detail how it's a slippery slope when (per all the links I've shared about Australia). Or explain to me why these public servants are ignoring reality and not making admissions about antibodies.
It's rather strange when someone can see all these links and their only real response is to try to justify it by calling out some rhetorical fallacy even though there wasn't one. What is this, high school debate class? I sourced my claims about what is literally happening down under, and it's not a slippery slope to understand history or to make noise when the alarm bells are going off.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
UK data shows that vaccinated people are more likely to get COVID than unvaccinated people at this point. You cannot argue that vaccination makes you less likely to catch it with figures like that - it's just a made up talking point to try and justify deeply unwise and unethical mandates.
The patient’s consent is given voluntarily; After they have been fully informed of the risks and consequences; and they possess the mental capacity required to understand and make informed decisions.
Special cases that do not require consent:
A minor; In labor; Mentally ill or disabled; Under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or prescription medication; In a partially conscious state; and/or Experiencing great stress or pain at the time of consent.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/1028.116
The FDA says that the side effects in children are comparable with the "16 to 25 years" age group, which is the age group that has the highest incidents of myocarditis with both mRNA vaccines.
The sample size was too small to detect myocarditis according to the FDA, so people who are eager to vaccinate their children can provide that data set pretty quickly.
Also the “Long-term safety of COVID-19 vaccine in participants 5 to <12 years of age will be studied in 5 post-authorization safety studies.” Again, I'm choosing not allow my children to be a data point in that study.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01442-9
"Had COVID? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime"
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article25398704...
"More than 80% of Americans have coronavirus antibodies acquired through infection or vaccination, according to a new study of over 1.4 million blood donations across the U.S."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-27/previous-...
"Previous Covid Prevents Delta Infection Better Than Pfizer Shot"
https://www.9news.com.au/national/coronavirus-vaccine-rollou...
So for children, keep it optional if someone wants to give it to their child. Mandates would be suspect.
The only reason to not vaccinate kids is because the virus is not spreading anymore. That doesn't seem to be the case.
", given that Covid cases that require hospitalization are generally more severe than myocarditis cases. The FDA also said that its estimate of myocarditis risk was “conservative,” meaning that the risk for children in the 5 to 11 age group might be lower."